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Everything posted by Nellac

  1. So I've been thinking for a while and this makes a lot of sense. Now more so then being parts of his power, they are parts of either his personality, or his view of an ideal person. Now the reason I say this is because each order's ideals can be boiled down to a simple word. I believe that Honor was trying to split all the good/necessary attributes between a group as no one but a God could become perfect in all of them. Here are the words I think for each order. Note: Orders with a * by them are mainly guesses. 1. Bondsmith: Leadership 2. Windrunner: Protective nature 3. Skybreaker: Justice 4. Dustbringer: Righteous indignation*** 5. Edgedancer: Empathy/Compassion 6. Truthwatcher: Forethought/Planning*** 7. Lightweaver: Self Awareness 8. Elsecaller: Logic*** 9. Willshapers: Curiosity*** 10. Stoneward: Selflessness/Sacrifice*** Now I know the radiants weren't founded by Honor, but they were but the Heralds. Each order was created their ideals to exemplify their herald. Each of these Heralds was have picked, to the best of our knowledge, by Honor himself. I believe he wanted to create a group with all the attributes he considered necessary for a great person. It is easier for a person to pick a single ideal to try and perfect, then to try and perfect then all. This spreading of the ideals created some contention within the ranks of the radiants, but in the end it helped create a group that was as close as Honor could get to his own beliefs.
  2. So, I'm rereading WoR and something struck me from Lift's chapter. Windle mentions that the reason he believes Lift can turn food straight into stormlight is because she is partially in the cognitive realm. Now that got me thinking. Could an Elsecaller do something similar? They are the one's closest to shadesmar because of their abilities so maybe they can, maybe just temporarily, move part of themselves into the cognitive realm so they can get a similar affect. Perhaps is the Elsecaller's resonance. Just a thought I figured I'd throw out here to see if others have had similar thoughts or could build upon/disprove this theory.
  3. That makes a lot of sense. If you put leadership with windrunners what would you use for bondsmiths?
  4. Yes, absolutely. I can see the argument that he is just classist. I just don't understand the argument that he can't be racist simply because he's dark eyed/ of a lower social/political position.
  5. I think this is where the anger starts, but it doesn't start here. Throughout tWoK we see this hatred expanded to all light eyes. In that way he is racist. He later overcomes it though and starts to see people on an individualistic level
  6. Just because someone doesn't have power, doesn't mean their idealigies are correct. If there was someone on Twitter or Facebook that was spreading hate towards Jews and saying we should have another Holocaust to get rid of them that person is evil. Whether they have five followers or fifty thousand doesn't matter. Just because they maybe can't reach a ton of people, doesn't justify the ideology. Just like this, even though Kaladin doesn't have power to do much about it, his racist comment/thoughts/actions are still evil.
  7. His trust doesn't come for a while though. While I agree he gets better through the books, there are many times where he has very negative thoughts towards someone simply because they are light eyes. He doesn't even know them, and yet thinks they are evil and corrupt simply because they are light eyed. He might not act on these, but he openly discussed them with Bridge 4, especially Moash. He even tell one of the other bridge men he'd get them a drink if they were there because they had killed a light eyes. That is very obvious racism right there
  8. Alright, I'll admit I messed up with that analogy. It wasn't well worded. But here's the center of where I think our disagreement lies. @Greywatch Is it okay to treat someone badly or distrust then simply because people with a similar attribute have wronged you in the past?
  9. Why not? It seems like you are justifying racism. I've said it a lot and I'll say it again, you are saying it is okay to hate someone simply because other people with similar physical characteristics, characteristics they can't choose or change, have done evil things in the past. Let's bring this closer to the real world. Let's say that a black kid is teased by white kids in high school. Let's say they make his life an absolute misery. Is he justified in his anger against them? Absolutely. If the teachers stand by and do nothing is anger against them justified? Absolutely. Now let's say this kid moves and ends up in a new school. Is he now justified in beating up the white kids in his new school? Absolutely not. But in your logic it would be fine. He would be totally justified in anger and hatred towards every other white person he met in his life. Even if these people tried to befriend him or help him out, even if these people are great and actually stopped bullies in their own schools, you say it is justified for him to hate them.
  10. Okay, here's a couple of things to note. For one, just because people don't talk about it, doesn't mean they approve. I'd bet most people would agree that the Statement's made by Shallan, Adolin, and Dalinar are racist and bad. I will personally say that their derogatory statements are evil and shouldn't be said at all. Secondly, the reason Kaladin's racism is discussed so much is because it is a much more major part of his arc. Half of his problems as a character, especially in WoR, are because he is trying to overcome his racism and learn to trust light eyes. He is discussed more because he thinks about it more and changes more. Also, it seems like your main defense is "Nobody is talking about the other people, the people in power, that are racist." Okay fine, we don't talk about that very much. Maybe that is because this whole thread is about Kaladin and whether he is racist. Just saying that he's not as bad as some of the light eyes doesn't mean what he does is right. To truly understand if what he is doing is moral we need to look specifically at his actions and experiences and whether they are justified. We don't put them on a scale against other people, we put it on the scale of right and wrong.
  11. I don't see the problem with quoting MLK. Either way, you haven't actually rebutted that point. It is evil to judge someone simply based on bad experiences you've had in the past with similar people. Let me give you a better analogy. Let's say I got mugged in a city on three separate occasions. Each time it was by people who I know are left-handed. Does that justify me hating all people who are left-handed. Is it "righteous and correct" as you later put it for me to be rude and antagonistic towards anyone who happens to be left-handed? This is what you are justifying Kaladin doing. You are saying that since some light-eyed people have been terrible to him he is justified in hating everyone else who happens to be light eyed. Your analogy doesn't work. The problem is that getting a job is a choice that you make. You go to that business and you sign agreements to work for them and usually there is certain protocol you need to follow. That company can choose to fire you at any time because of their behavior. Perhaps they will have to pay you extra to make up for breaking an agreement, but it is their right as your boss to fire you if they want to. That's how jobs work. His hatred at Rashone, Amaram, Elokar, and Sadeus may be fair. His anger at all other light eyes is unfair because they haven't done anything wrong to Kaladin. Again, he is judging people by their eye color and not their actions.
  12. Here is the problem with this view. You are equating the actions of a few with the actions of all. You are saying that simply because some light eyes have treated Kaladin unfairly he therefore has the right to be rude and distrustful of every other light eyes he ever meets. This is the problem with racism. Racism makes you judge someone not based on their individual actions and attributes, but as part of a group. Racism is not reserved for institutional or systemic power. I find no definitions of racism that say it has to be systemic. Systemic racism can, and on Roshar definitely does, exist. But that doesn't justify Kaladin's individual racism towards individuals that he knows nothing about, except their eye color. Martin Luther King Jr., one of the greatest civil rights activists of his time said that each person should "not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." What you are saying is that it is okay to judge someone by the color of their skin, and I'll add in here eyes, if people of the same skin/eye color have mistreated you in the past. In reality, your approach leads to more racism, not less.
  13. Here's the problem. If you justify anger against a certain race, for any reason, then you just keep adding to the problem. Let's say the dark eyes manage to pull off a massive coup. They create a worldwide coaltition and completely overthrow the light eyes. Let's also imagine they took your approach and hated the light eyes and justified it by how they had been treated. Now they are in power, do you think that animosity will fade? It won't if anything it'll just get stronger and stronger. THey will likely treat the light eyes worse then even they were treated in retribution. Within like three generations Roshar would be in the same social situation, just with dark eyes on top and light eyes underneath. This would cary on until light eyes threw a coup and so on and so forth forever. The only way out of this loop is to disavow racism at every level. Even those who have been oppressed and treated unfairly need to realize that unless they can set that aside for a greater future, the world will be stuck in this spiral. As Kaladin said to Moash, "We need to be better then them", or something similar. Without some group putting aside their hatred and anger and finally living up to the ideal of treating everyone equally, nothing will change but the color of eyes of those in charge. THis is the problem with justifying racism simply because you've been treated badly. P.S. There is a point in one of the books where bridge 4 actuallty has a discussion about this. I can't remember if it's in WoR or tWoK, and I only have audio so if someone else knows where that is and could quote it that would be nice.
  14. This is false on so many levels. Simply because someone isn't part of the "dominant class" doesn't mean that they are relieved of all responsibility for there racist actions towards others. Here's the actual definition of racist. Adjective: showing or feeling discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or believing that a particular race is superior to another. Now, on Roshar this can be applied both to light and dark eyed people. For one, you see everyone see themselves as superior to the parshmen. There are also plenty of examples of light-eyes looking down on the dark-eyes. What we don't often acknowledge is the racism from the dark-eyes towards the light eyes. We see this most in Moash, but other Bridge 4 members show it too. We see Kaladin think things about how spoiled Shallan is simply because she's a light-eyes. At one point we even see Moash use the excuse that the King is a light-eyes so it's not as bad to kill him. All of these things, from light eyes and dark eyes, are racist. Now we can have an argument over if some of it is justified, but just saying you can't be racist towards the dominant class is ridiculous.
  15. So, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the stormfather said that Dalinar making a perpendicularity was a new ability. I believe that since honor is now dead the Spren have more of his power and so can do new and greater things. Also here's the question. If shardplate can just be made without some of a radiants personal abilities needing to be used, why not make more? What not create a giant store if plate that can be passed from generation to generation and used each time a desolation hits. If the plate isn't locked to only a radiant at a certain oath obtaining it, why not give them to as many soldiers as possible? I think the name Willshaper comes from there ability to use cohesion. Now, we haven't seen cohesion used yet, but I think it could do some very interesting things. I agree with the idea that Willshapers are tinkers, but I think of that more with the powers. They mess with their abilities so much that they know them innately. This probably leads to incredible shows of power that make it seem like they can shape the very works into what they will. I believe that in one vision Dalinar sees a radiant use cohesion to change rock into a series of steps. This seems to be shaping things with your will.
  16. Also, on a writing perspective I don't see it happening. I don't have the WOB in front of me, but Brandon says one of his greatest writing errors was how he dealt with Jasnah's death. He felt it was too cheesy to bring her back and he wrote it badly. That being said, I don't see him bringing back anyone else in stormlight
  17. I think we are using the wrong term here. I believe Kaladin is less racist then classist. He doesn't necessarily have a problem with people's eye come so much as their status. This is why he accepts the "tenners" so easily. They are near his same class and so he doesn't have a problem with them. The reason it seems like racism is because he's always saying "light eyes." The thing is, the alethi don't have a term for nobility. This is down in Kaladin and Teft's inability to understand how the horn eaters government works. I think a better analogy for the situation on Roshar would be the nobility and peasants of medieval Europe. Kaladin has a problem with those who are in power, not those with light eyes. The problem is that in Roshar those things entertwine so much that it is hard, even for people on Roshar, to distinguish between the two. Basically, Kaladin hates people in power, but since all the people in power are light eyes, he transfers that anger towards them. Here's another reason why I don't think he's racist. He tries to take Shen in and treat him equally. Now, I know he doesn't always do the best at fulfilling that ideal, but he tries harder then anyone else we see in the book to work with and even treat equally a parshman.
  18. So, I'm reading through the books again and little things keep catching my attention. One is that in WoR while Kaladin is in jail he sees little Spren that look like wires. In an interlude that I think is in twok we see Axis the collection looking for Spren. At the end when he is sent to jail he says something about having another chance to see captivity Spren. I believe this is what Kaladin saw in his cell. Now, the interesting part is why Kaladin saw it when Axis never did. This may be because he is a radiant, buti think there's more to it. I think it is because Kaladin felt trapped. He felt like he was caged and therefore his emotions drew the Spren to him. Now Axis seems to be so carefree I doubt he truly felt captive in prisons. More than likely he just sees it as a slight delay in his quest to see all Spren. This mindset is not enough to draw the Spren.
  19. Is there such a thing? Isn't the point of morality that you are doing the right thing? Can it be possible to do too good of a thing? I understand, but don't agree with, the argument that what Moash did was right, but that doesn't seem to be your rebuttal here. It seems, and you can correct me if I'm misinterpreting it, that you are saying that simply because it's hard to take the high road, we shouldn't be disappointed in those who don't. This doesn't make any sense. We should all try to do the best and most moral thing we can and expect others too as well. Now we can disagree and debate on what is and what isn't moral, but to justify actions by saying it is too highly most to expect people to do it is ridiculous. It's basically an easy it for those who don't want to do the right thing.
  20. And yet there is someone in the story who had gone through extremely similar, if not worse, circumstances and come out on top and taken the high road. Kaladin not only didn't do anything to the light eyes at first, but actively tried to appease and help them. Him and his father even saved Rashone's life and did what they could for his son. In return, Kaladin lost his brother, the one person who could drive away his depression and brought joy into his life. He then set that aside and still kept fighting for the very light eyes. Then Kaladin risks his life, and the life of most of his men to save Amaram, the very man who broke his promise to protect Tien. After saving Amaram and killing a full on shard-bearer, an act that wouldd put him in the history books forever, Kaladin is then betrayed and all of his men are killed by the very man he saved. He is then made a slave and sent to work as a human shield. He figures it out and uses his leadership and surgebinding to save himself and all of his men, including Moash. He then tries to out the man who ruined his life and is thrown in prison for the trouble. Now there is a point here where he starts to take the low road, but he quickly realizes that this viewpoint is flawed. He then goes out and risks his life to save the very man who had him thrown in jail. He even stands up against his "friend" to do so. He then has to watch Amaram be made into a high prince, one of the most powerful people in the world at that point. He also goes to meet Rashone and is in a position where he could kill him. He has the power to get vengeance on the man who doomed his brother to die in the army, but he decides to be better than that. He takes the higher road and walks away from his desire for revenge. Now he does later get to kill Amaram, but that is in the heat of battle. If Moash hadn't tried to assassinate the king, but had first attacked him during the invasion in Alethkar there would be less reason to be angry because that is just how war goes. Yes, Moash had it rough, but I find it hard to believe it's bad to ask this person to take the high road. Especially when there is a character in the book who has gone through just as hard of times and has taken that very same high road. I think many people who dislike Moash and his choices don't have a problem with his anger and hatred at the King. It is the fact that instead of putting his anger aside for the betterment of himself, Bridge 4, and Alethkar as a hole, as Kaladin does, he let's it rule his life and he turns on the man that he literally took him from the bottom to the top. The man that took him from a slave who would've certainly died, to a highly respected light-eyes that has two priceless weapons. It's not the fact that he's angry that people hate, it is how he deals with that anger and how it affects Kaladin.
  21. That's not what I'm saying at all. I think it's fine you posted that. I was just throwing this out there in case you or anyone else wanted to dive a little deeper into other theories related to this one
  22. This idea has been thrown around a lot and I think it makes a lot of sense. Here's a link to the thread here I shared what I thought would happen with these lesser spren.
  23. I wonder if it is the ability to capture Spren in gems. It's mentioned that they teach this skill to the parshendi, but I don't think we know when it was actually discovered, or I guess rediscovered in the modern age.
  24. I agree with everything you've said, except this statement. Every single member of any of the bridge crews brought to Dalinar's camp owe their lives to Kaladin. Without him they would've all been dead within a month running Bridges for Sadeas. Moash even more so because he would have died weeks before they even left Sadeas' camp if it wasn't for Kaladin's leadership and surgebinding.
  25. I want this to be true so bad. I'm not sure it will, but I really want it to. It would make sense though