bxcnch

I think the term "racist" is a little difficult in this case because it has - understandably - a very negative connotation. But there are different "levels" of racism of course. Hitler was racist. That's obvious. Washington and Jefferson were racist. They owned slaves and believed black people to be inferior - but they were at least very uncomfortable about it. Not nearly enough to justify slave ownership of course, but, still, they were rather harmless in comparison to Hitler. And finally there are the Jews in Nazi-Germany. When you are a Jew in the 1930s, you really dislike the Germans of course, for very understandable reasons. Technically that means they are racist - but because that term is very negative, saying "The Jews in Nazi-Germany were racist" is a statement that leaves a really bad taste in your mouth. In Kaladin's case, there definitely is a sort of prejudice, but whether it is racist or classist or neither is hard to tell. Generally, the lighteyes subjugate the darkeyes via economic and political means, they occupy all the priviliged and prestigious positions etc. Furthermore, Kaladin's prejudices are confirmed all the time - after all, Dalinar is the only one who appears to have some minimum of tolerance towards darkeyes. I think Kaladin definitely doesn't believe Lighteyes to be inferior in any way - he expects them to be amoral bastards, not to be stupid and inherently bad in any way. It's the old nature-vs-nurture-argument. Kaladin knows Lighteyes are raised with a sense of superiority, that they are accustomed to having power and that is why they act the way they do. His prejudice is a result of his experiences, so I don't think that he believes in an inherent untrustworthiness of Lighteyes since birth. He hates Lighteyes because they - like Laral and Roshone - think they are better than him and his fellow darkeyes. Is the hatred of a community due to an attitude or an ideology that has become the predominant worldview among members of that community synonymous with racism, if said community happens to be united by racial aspects? I am once again going to do the Nazi comparison here (the cheapest of all argumentative techniques, I know...). If, say, a Russian or a Polish during WW2 says: "The Germans want to take over Europe, they are evil", then that is - technically - a prejudice. "The Germans" were, after all, a very heterogeneous group, just barely similiar enough to be called "a people". Politically, they had been divided, and there were countless Germans who supported the Nazis due to economical reforms, their good immage, a desire for less conflict in domestic politics, their hard stance against the Versailles treaty et cetera. Almost no one saw the Holocaust or the attempt to conquer Europe coming - they should have, and, when it happened, they mostly went along with it. But there were a lot of Germans who didn't want the war or the mass executions. Saying "Germans want to conquer Europe/slaughter the Slavs and Jews/started the war, and therefore are evil" is wrong, because on an individual level, the majority of Germans were against those things. However, as a community, "the German People" if seen as a united entity, definitely did start the war and went through with the Holocaust. Many individuals in Germany were often against the war as individuals but not to the point where they would have actually shared their doubts or attempt to change things on a societal level. There's a thin, but existing, line between (correctly) saying "the Germans wanted the war" and (incorrectly and possibly racistically) saying: "All Germans wanted the war", just like there's a difference between saying "the Americans voted for Trump" and saying "Every American voted for Trump" or between "Children love clowns" and saying "All children love clowns". I would therefore not say that a dislike of a group, based on experiences, is racist, simply because some individuals are glossed over. Kaladin is prejudiced, but not racist as he, first of all, doesn't think of all lighteyes as inherently bad (see below) The Lighteyes have their own community. They share morals, values and social conventions that make them an own separate part of the society of Roshar. Even if individual members of the Lighteyes-caste are against the prejudice against darkeyes, the predominant belief of most lighteyes is, that they are superior to them. Kaladin is against the Lighteyes, because this group as a whole is almost unanimously keeping up the caste system and the oppression of the darkeyes. If you asked Dalinar what the perfect society would be like, he might answer that he would abandon the caste system maybe, but currently he sees it as an issue that is just not that important. If you asked them about darkeye-lighteye-equality, some lighteyes, like Dalinar, wouldn't say: "Darkeyes equals? Never!" nor would he say "We have to immediately destroy the caste hierarchy!". Instead their answer would be something like: "I guess it's something that's maybe a bit unfair. Sometime, someone should probably change it a little." The classism and that kind of ignorance from its non-racist members are why the lighteye-community as a whole, if you want to see it as one single entity, is still opressing the darkeyes' equality. So the lighteyes are a community, united by racial traits, in which there is a dominant belief that they are superior to darkeyes and more worthy of political and economical power; in short, they are racist. They either have, or tolerate, a racist and classist ideology. Racism is defined as a hatred of a person or a group that is not based on their personality, but on their ethnicity. Kaladin does not hate the lighteyes because of their ethnicity, but because of the lighteyes' belief that they are better than darkeyes. That is an ideology that is wide-spread across the lighteyes and, in fact, supported either directly (ew, darkeyes, how gross) or indirectly (now is not the time to discuss equality) by every lighteyes we have ever seen. And ideology and personality are closely intertwined (if somebody tells you he's a nazi, for example, you probably have a pretty good idea of what his personality is like). Therefore you could say that Kaladin indirectly judges Lighteyes by their personality, their attitudes and ignorance in particular - attitudes which are rooted in the lighteye's upbringing and their culture. He is possibly prejudiced when he immediately assumes that every lighteyes he meets shares their caste's sense of superiority - but, once again, so far, he has been almost always correct. Furthermore, while Kaladin says that all lighteyes automatically have that kind of attitude, he is able to recognise that he's wrong. Dalinar, Adolin, Shallan and possibly even Elhokar were able to prove him wrong. Really dedicated racists cannot be proven wrong. A White Supremacist will go on claiming that black people are inherently less intelligent. When you show him a black person with a PhD he will not even say: "Well, I guess there are exceptions" (- which of course still wouldn't be much better). He will instead go on to keep making his claims and ignore all evidence that he's wrong. Kaladin clearly isn't like that.

I just re-read chapter 31 (I think) in the un-quotable, german version and the dialogue goes something like this: "Stormfather, listen to me!" "WHAT DO YOU WANT, SON OF HONOR?" "There are people down there. You must re-direct the storm!" (...) "WHAT ABOUT ALL THE PEOPLE THAT DIED IN THE STORMS BEFORE? SHOULD I FEEL SORRY FOR THOSE TOO?" "Yes" "SHOULD THE WAVES FEEL SORRY FOR THE PEOPLE THAT DROWN IN THEM? SHOULD A FIRE FEEL SORRY FOR THE PEOPLE THAT BURN IN IT?" "I'm asking you and only this one time, Stormfather. Please! I'm begging you!" Then the Stormfather hesitates and actually considers Kaladin's pleas for a time. And then: "I AM SORRY, THERE IS NOTHING I CAN DO, SON OF TANAVAST." So, the Stormfather calls Kaladin "Son of Honor" as well (unless the translators failed again), but when Kaladin asks him to feel Mercy/spare the people, Stormfather apologises and calls Kaladin "Son of Tanavast". I think if "Son of Tanavast" was a title of the Windrunners or a reference to Kaladin's descent, then Stormfather would have addressed him as such from the beginning. In the actual chapter however, he only does so when he apologises. I can't really conclude why he would Kaladin that way, but it seems to be connected more to the situation or to the request than to Kaladin himself.

I find this theory very interesting because your and my expectations of what Willshapers will do are quite different. As we know nothing about Willshapers at all, I think it's quite difficult to argue what exactly they will be like. And that little piece of information is what your entire argumentation is based on. I am not criticising here, after all that is pretty much the only information we have got on Willshapers and based on that information what you say makes a lot of sense. A love of novelty and oddity really does sound like the Willshapers might be based on innovation, ideas or science in some way. I really think that the orders in general are sorted by morality and functionality. Each of the order represents a unique value or moral code - Altruism, Lawfulness, Unity, Logic, et cetera. And sometimes these moralities clash - Windrunners and Skybreakers, Windrunners and Elsecallers, Windrunners and Lightweavers, Skybreakers and Edgedancers... But apart from that, they all seem to be based on specific, well, "jobs" for lack of a better words. Just as the 10 Silver Kingdoms were all specialised on specific tasks, I assume that the 10 orders also are specialised on specific jobs that are important for a society that has to fight against the voidbringers. There are diplomats (Elsecallers), spies (Lightweavers), police (Skybreakers), authority figures (Bondsmiths) and so on. And I guess that Willshaper fit into that categorization as well, since you also need inventors and scientists in a society. My only problem is that this does not seem to involve any sort of moral component, at least none that I can think of. One of the things that I think are really great about the magic systems expecially on Roshar is how well the magic system corresponds to their users' personality and motives. An order who aims to unite people(s) has powers that literally allow them to unite things and even worlds. An order who are lying and hiding all their lives have the ability to create illusions. So, logically, you should be able to turn that logic around to get information on the orders: Someone who can travel and form things like clay and who is called "Willshaper". Seeing how Dalinar's version of Adhesion seems to work on a Cognitive and/or Spiritual level as well, I imagine that maybe Willshapers will have similiar abilities, allowing them to literally shape other people's will. I expect this to be more of a passive resonance ability, that people around Willshapers will be more susceptible to their arguments. Even if it isn't a real power or resonance, I am very sure that "shaping people's wills/changing their attitude" is at the very least a motif that is connected to the order in some ways. Just like Bondsmiths bring people together, I assume that Willshapers will make people take on new opinions and possibly change their perspectives. I imagine they'll be a little like Kelsier or Gandalf: wandering around, inspiring people, convincing them and/or manipulating them until they have begun to form a new opinion. Lightweavers are spies, Skybreakers are law enforcement and Willshapers, I assume, are some sort of cross between missionary, army recruiter and professional revolutionary (I also think would be a more interesting POV). To some of Odium's singer slaves, their slavery is just the continuation of the slavery they endured before, to others it's the final revenge against humanity. But by the end of OB, Venli is apparently working to undermine his rule, sowing distrust and doubts among the Singers and reminding them of the fate of the Parshendi people. She is encouraging them to question their loyalty and their intentions and possibly rebel or join Dalinar. At least that's my theory on Willshapers. I can't really think of any oaths right now, but I am sure that your theory on the structure of oaths would work here too.

We have WoB that you could "steal" a Nahel Bond with Hemalurgy. And Hemalurgy only transplants part of the spiritweb. Therefore the Nahel Bond itself must also be part of the spirit web. Aluminum blocks investiture, but it doesn't change your spiritweb, otherwise a Mistborn entering an Aluminum room or recovering from an aluminium-wound could cease being a mistborn. Furthermore, an Allomancer could still use his abilities inside the aluminium-room. The metal is just the key, and the actual investiture is locked inside the allomancer. Once you have unlocked the investiture, you can use it, and how depends on what kind of allomancer you are. That's also inside the spiritweb. Nahel bonds work almost the same, the only difference is that the investiture isn't inside the user but is taken from the environment. But the spiritweb still decides which spren and what abilities you get. Therefore, Surgebinding should still work within a room of Aluminium. Aluminium only blocks investiture, nothing else. So, I guess unless the "telepathy" itself involves an exchange of investiture of some kind, the aluminium shouldn't be able to block it. And I assume it doesn't, because Kaladin can talk to Syl even if he is out of Stormlight. And while what the spren do seems to be telepathic, IIRC, the human partners are just talking normally. For example, at one point, Dalinar curses and says "Stormfather!" If Spren could read minds, then the Stormfather would not have mistaken Dalinar's cursing for his name. So, communication isn't Stormlight or any other form of Investiture. Therefore, why should it be blocked? (I am pretty sure that you wouldn't be able to call the blade through aluminium though, because that actually involves moving investiture).

I feel like these jokes are going to Stick around this site forever, aren't they? I wonder how many people made this joke already?

In 1968 Arthur C Clarke wrote a famous novel about a starship of scientists trying to fly to Saturn with a fully sentient supercomputer. This book is called 2001: A Space Odyssee. Some time later he wrote a sequel: 2010: The Year we Make Contact. As you without a doubt know, we - in 2019 - have - as far as I know - not yet made contact with any alien species, nor are we even close to sending people to Saturn. And yet in 1968, it seemed plausible that we might have by 2010. And of course, today nobody knows what technology will look like in 2050 for example. Will we have flying cars and autonomous driving? Or will the newest innovation be yet another new iPhone? Who knows, maybe we will even have regressed technologically. It is almost impossible to accurately predict how fast a civilisation will develop technologies. IRL we only have one humanity whose history we can compare Roshar's to and as far as we know, our development could have all gone completely different. You cannot really base empirical arguments on something that happened only once. So saying that Roshar "should have" developed faster or slower or anything is completely impossible. On Scadrial Allomancy and Feruchemy were known to their respective users for hundreds of years. On Roshar, Surgebinding has gone basically extinct. Fabrials meanwhile don't seem to be of much scientific interest, weird as it may be. Navani's interest in Fabrials is seen as more of a hobby even by herself and Shallan does not seem particularly interested in Fabrials. Jasnah herself is apparently more focused on sciences like sociology, history, theology and (political) philosophy, less on natural sciences. Of course Fabrial sciences exist, otherwise the half-shards and the various other advances in Fabrials that you named couldn't be explained. But we don't know how long the research into Fabrials exists. After all, spren are completely natural to the people of Roshar. You see dozens of spren every day, they are just like cremlings. It's not anything special to see one, they are basically like singbirds or bugs in real life - pieces of wildlife that you definitely see but that you don't really think about a lot. Ornithology and entomology are rather new sciences as well, historically speaking. Spren sciences might be rather new to Roshar as well. Especially because, as Shallan demonstrates - and was supposed to demonstrate - scientists for the longest time were not specialised at a specific topic. Charles Darwin was geologist, botanicist, zoologist, theologist and (in a way) even a geneticist. As revolutionary as the evolutionary theory of Darwin is, compared to modern biological studies it seems rather vague and unspecific - because when he lived, sciences were mixed and their knowledge was much broader. I always assumed that was a cultural quirk of Tashikk and an old tradition, but I might have missed something. What makes you think it's recent? In the history of science things frequently were discocered and re-discovered. Electricity was first discovered by the ancient Greek and in fact there are even signs that a few very, very primitive batteries were designed in antiquity. But apparently, humanity forgot about them again for about a thousand years. America was "discovered" at least three seperate times. Thomas More's utopia basically describes communism a few hundred years before Marx was even born. The Romans were already using a form of concrete for their buildings, in the middle ages their successors didn't. Fact is, ideas come and go all the time. You also need to remember the educational system of a medieval society - more than 90% of the population was living outside the towns, where the innovations that the few city-dwellers and noblemen discovered simply never really arrived. Farmers in, for example France, would pretty much live the same in 500 AD and in 1500 AD. Their clothes might have looked a little different, their language shifted a little and their landlords would probably have a different name. But their everyday life and their standards of life didn't. Until the Industrial revolution, progress and innovation were things that happen in cities and monasteries, but not on the land. All of that slows down technological development. The Vorin Kingdoms have a caste system of 10 levels of nahn and 10 levels of dahn. Since Kaladin's mother in the 2nd Nahn was not a scholar, I am going to assume that women from the nahn-castes might be literate, but not really expected to be scholars or scientists. Seeing how Kaladin's/Azure's squad in Kholinar was composed of lighteyes of low dahn, but who were still basically identical to darkeyes soldiers, I am going to extend these speculations to the lower dahns. I am going to assume that women from Dahn 1 - 7 have enough access to good education and the scientific community to contribute to science in a meaningful way. That would be 7 castes of 20, which means that - assuming that the dahn and nahn all have the same amount of members - 35% of women may be scholars. However Dahns 1 and 2 consist only of the King and his closer family - if you ignore those few people we are left with 5 of 18 castes, which would be 28% of women. Furthermore, this model assumes that 1) there are exactly as many members of dahn 3 as in nahn 10 - which obviously isn't the case, 2) That all of the women have chosen devotaries that encourage scientific progress, 3) That these women do not have to take care of their household, children or their husbands and 4) That all of these women engage in natural science instead of history or linguistics or arts. I am to lazy to do any more maths now but I estimate that that would leave maybe 5% of all women, which means 2,5% of Alethi in charge of ALL sciences and arts. And, as already said, scholars like Shallan basically try to study everything at once, which - given the level of social progress in Roshar - is unavoidable, but also very inefficient. Okay, now I'm confused. You think that after the Recreance the Fabrials replaced the Radiants, but you also say that Regeowth Fabrials were lost after the last desolation - before the Recreance?Besides, many types of spren are rare or unique, and it's quite likely that there never really were many of them. Furthermore, the most advanced Fabrials we've seen so far were in Urithiru. I imagine that the progress of Fabrial-sciences in the rest of the world may have been much slower than the Fabrials in Urithiru. Apart from that, the situation of the spren has changed. Honor has been splintered in the meantime - which obviously had an effect on the spren, who see themselves as "little pieces of gods". Since the Recreance, spren also have developed a preference for the CR. I think Wyndle said in Edgedancer that the Cryptics and Cultivationspren have decided to send spren into the PR again, which suggests that the sentient spren have remained in Shadesmar for a long time. And while I don't want to speculate about Fabrials and spren at this point, I can imagine that it would have an effect on Growth-based magics if Cultivationspren and Truthwatcher-Spren stay away from the PR. Did progress only occur in Jah Keved and Alethkar? I mean, we usually see things only from the Alethis' perspective, right? Tashikk at least has a lot of spanreeds, which I remember you mentioned as evidence for rapid technological progress. Apart from that, the Makabaki had a genocide happen a few hundred years before. Countless Makabaki were slaughtered by Sadees the Sunmaker. The technological impact such events had on similiar civilisations in real life is huge. I would say that the various muslimic countries in the near east for example never one-hundred-percently recovered from the thousands of deaths caused by Genghis Khan and the Christian Crusaders around 1000 - 1200 AD. And famines do not necessarily foster innovation. Innovation happens in cities, famines meanwhile affect the poor and the farmers first. Take 1789 for example: Louis XVI found out the hard way that the educated upper classes often don't quite perceive the problems of the common people. I think the character changes in Gavilar are not really meant to imply that he became stupider. He just became more "weird", more interested into religion and mysticism. Just like people perceived Dalinar as weird in WoK. We know that he had some rather interesting guests shortly before his death and that he possessed some cosmere-awareness that can not be explained with his SoH-membership. I really don't think Odium's forces are willing to soothe people's emotions. It doesn't really fit Odiums MO. And while I am all in favour of Odium representing more emotions than just hatred and rage, I really don't think scientific curiosity is part of his portfolio. Of course there is nothing that really proves your theory wrong and I think it would fit very well to Odium's established strategy. But - an unnamed Unmade, not described in Mythica, who covers the entirety of Roshar (!) despite WoB saying that the Unmade have less investiture than the Stormfather... I find that hard to believe, because usually such things are foreshadowed better in his books. And I think the backstory of repeated war, plus the influence of a conservative clerus, a caste system, dependence of a highly unpredictable ressource (spren), the lack of print, the conflation of science and arts, the fact that 50% of the population cannot read, the difficulty of building infrastructure due to highstorms and the complete disappearance of a magic system that humanity had relied on for millenia - all those are already major obstacles for a progressive society.

Stick has its own Coppermind page? ...Oh, why am I even surprised? Of course stick has its own coppermind page... Edit: ...Which I've actually read just now. What am I doing with my life?

Soulcasting/Dividing a herald might be rather difficult, because of all the investiture they contain. And - I might be wrong about this - the honorblades should be back to their hands ten heartbeats later, right? (Maybe even less than ten heartbeats - I think Adolin's semi-sentient blade only needed 6 or 7 heartbeats, fully sentient spren-blades are just summoned instantaneously. "Sprenblades" are a spren's condensed investiture, Shardblades are a dead spren's condensed investiture. The honorblades we know are a dead shard's condensed investiture. We don't know for sure how honorblades worked back when Honor was still alive, I can imagine they would just appear without the "ten heartbeats")

A Herald is technically just a Cognitive Shadow attached to an "artificial" body that didn't originally belong to them, right? We know that some things, like Kaladin's scars cannot be healed because of the way he sees himself. If a Herald thinks of his new body as something that doesn't belong to them, is Stormlight-based healing of that body even possible? I mean, I think that they probably were able to heal, because otherwise they would be rather "underpowered", but right now I can't really think of any scene where it explicitly says that Heralds can heal.

I think we might have seen the growth-aspect of Progression used on a person in OB. There was one point during the battle where Kaladin was fighting Amaram and some voidbringers. I think one of them attacked Kaladin with a club of carapace that grew out of its body. I remember that I wondered if that was maybe a (voidish?) form of Progression, that they applied to themselves.

...especially because said ex-genocidal tyrant's moral code is actually taken from an obscure centuries-old book of koans that he couldn't even read until recently. Just imagine what moral decision in the Szeth-Dalinar hierarchy must look like. "This Taravangian guy looks evil, let's kill him". "Master Dalinar, my sword wants to know if this man is evil" "Hmmmm... He is just doing what he thinks is right. I ... am not sure. Wait, I need to consult the Word of Kings on that."

I think Nale will die in SA 4 or maybe in the first half of SA 5. When Odium and Dalinar are talking for the first time, Nale and the Skybreakers are Odium's best example of a world without passion, as Honor would have wanted it to be. Nale also explicitly says that he thinks that the singers are the legitimate rulers of Roshar and that's why he changes sides. He is fighting for the singers, not Odium. And with Venli as a radiant, I see a possible singer revolution happening. Nale will fight for Odium - and Odium, being ressourceful, will keep him as a tool until the other heralds are dead. Nale will become increasingly uncooperative until Odium eventually decides that he has become a risk and kills Nale. Most Skybreakers will suddenly be left without their external moral compass, be unable to make any real decisions and then Szeth will pick up the role, as one of the most powerful Skybreakers with a well-functioning external moral code (i.e. Dalinar). That is obviously all just speculation, and I really think it's almost impossible to predict the plot twists in a Sanderson series, but we already know Szeth is going to become a major character in SA 5 and if he acquired the leadership of the Skybreakers that would be a very interesting development. Furthermore, Nale is living on borrowed time since Odium wants to destroy the Oathpact. Besides, the fact that a lot of Skybreakers have made an Oath to follow Nale seems like it could be foreshadowing something like this. Also, I can really see Szeth and the Skybreakers having some sort of "Gwaihir-moment" in one of the later books.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Szeth let go of his Honorblade himself? It's not like "being shoved onto the street" and more like "jumping in front of a car". Besides, I think there's a difference between killing an enemy immediately as soon as you can, and hesitating to kill the opponent to consider at least for a moment to spare him out of pity. The end result is the same, but the implications for Kaladin's sense of morality are different. The way the scene is written now makes Kaladin less of a cold-blooded killer, it shows that taking someone's life is a difficult choice for Kaladin.

Except that she didn't really know it would take choice away from them entirely, and that what she wanted was - among others - prosperity for her people. And the fact that she was uninfluenced by stormform might imply that she already was under some supernatural influence. Anyway, I think it's too early to judge before knowing her backstory - Dalinar already demonstrated how much can be changed by that. It would be fitting for her to die in SA 9, I think - since Eshonai died in book 2 and SA has this whole symmetry-motif. Considering that SA4 will be her and/or Eshonai's book, I rather doubt she'll die. That would be a waste of the character development she will most likely receive. And I thought I was the only one...