bxcnch

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  1. I find this theory very interesting because your and my expectations of what Willshapers will do are quite different. As we know nothing about Willshapers at all, I think it's quite difficult to argue what exactly they will be like. And that little piece of information is what your entire argumentation is based on. I am not criticising here, after all that is pretty much the only information we have got on Willshapers and based on that information what you say makes a lot of sense. A love of novelty and oddity really does sound like the Willshapers might be based on innovation, ideas or science in some way. I really think that the orders in general are sorted by morality and functionality. Each of the order represents a unique value or moral code - Altruism, Lawfulness, Unity, Logic, et cetera. And sometimes these moralities clash - Windrunners and Skybreakers, Windrunners and Elsecallers, Windrunners and Lightweavers, Skybreakers and Edgedancers... But apart from that, they all seem to be based on specific, well, "jobs" for lack of a better words. Just as the 10 Silver Kingdoms were all specialised on specific tasks, I assume that the 10 orders also are specialised on specific jobs that are important for a society that has to fight against the voidbringers. There are diplomats (Elsecallers), spies (Lightweavers), police (Skybreakers), authority figures (Bondsmiths) and so on. And I guess that Willshaper fit into that categorization as well, since you also need inventors and scientists in a society. My only problem is that this does not seem to involve any sort of moral component, at least none that I can think of. One of the things that I think are really great about the magic systems expecially on Roshar is how well the magic system corresponds to their users' personality and motives. An order who aims to unite people(s) has powers that literally allow them to unite things and even worlds. An order who are lying and hiding all their lives have the ability to create illusions. So, logically, you should be able to turn that logic around to get information on the orders: Someone who can travel and form things like clay and who is called "Willshaper". Seeing how Dalinar's version of Adhesion seems to work on a Cognitive and/or Spiritual level as well, I imagine that maybe Willshapers will have similiar abilities, allowing them to literally shape other people's will. I expect this to be more of a passive resonance ability, that people around Willshapers will be more susceptible to their arguments. Even if it isn't a real power or resonance, I am very sure that "shaping people's wills/changing their attitude" is at the very least a motif that is connected to the order in some ways. Just like Bondsmiths bring people together, I assume that Willshapers will make people take on new opinions and possibly change their perspectives. I imagine they'll be a little like Kelsier or Gandalf: wandering around, inspiring people, convincing them and/or manipulating them until they have begun to form a new opinion. Lightweavers are spies, Skybreakers are law enforcement and Willshapers, I assume, are some sort of cross between missionary, army recruiter and professional revolutionary (I also think would be a more interesting POV). To some of Odium's singer slaves, their slavery is just the continuation of the slavery they endured before, to others it's the final revenge against humanity. But by the end of OB, Venli is apparently working to undermine his rule, sowing distrust and doubts among the Singers and reminding them of the fate of the Parshendi people. She is encouraging them to question their loyalty and their intentions and possibly rebel or join Dalinar. At least that's my theory on Willshapers. I can't really think of any oaths right now, but I am sure that your theory on the structure of oaths would work here too.
  2. We have WoB that you could "steal" a Nahel Bond with Hemalurgy. And Hemalurgy only transplants part of the spiritweb. Therefore the Nahel Bond itself must also be part of the spirit web. Aluminum blocks investiture, but it doesn't change your spiritweb, otherwise a Mistborn entering an Aluminum room or recovering from an aluminium-wound could cease being a mistborn. Furthermore, an Allomancer could still use his abilities inside the aluminium-room. The metal is just the key, and the actual investiture is locked inside the allomancer. Once you have unlocked the investiture, you can use it, and how depends on what kind of allomancer you are. That's also inside the spiritweb. Nahel bonds work almost the same, the only difference is that the investiture isn't inside the user but is taken from the environment. But the spiritweb still decides which spren and what abilities you get. Therefore, Surgebinding should still work within a room of Aluminium. Aluminium only blocks investiture, nothing else. So, I guess unless the "telepathy" itself involves an exchange of investiture of some kind, the aluminium shouldn't be able to block it. And I assume it doesn't, because Kaladin can talk to Syl even if he is out of Stormlight. And while what the spren do seems to be telepathic, IIRC, the human partners are just talking normally. For example, at one point, Dalinar curses and says "Stormfather!" If Spren could read minds, then the Stormfather would not have mistaken Dalinar's cursing for his name. So, communication isn't Stormlight or any other form of Investiture. Therefore, why should it be blocked? (I am pretty sure that you wouldn't be able to call the blade through aluminium though, because that actually involves moving investiture).
  3. I feel like these jokes are going to Stick around this site forever, aren't they? I wonder how many people made this joke already?
  4. Okay, I think (and hope) that this is completely unnecessary and I am just being paranoid, but, just in case, I want to apologise in advance for every time that I might come across as obnoxious or annoying in the forums.

    In the internet there is of course always that risk that you are seen in a different way than you intended to. Jokes sound like mockery, compliments sound condescending, lack of compliments sounds dismissive etc. 

    English isn't my first language. I think I understand the grammar and the spelling quite well, most of the time and I even understand how to use 'some' and any 'correctly' (intuitively even, you probably haven't got some idea how difficult that is distinction can be). What I really cannot and probably never will be able to do is understanding the less apparent apects and connotations though. I know that there's a difference between 'acquire' and 'get' even though the meaning is basically the same, but what about 'obtain' for example? I have seen people use 'sir' to refer to each other in casual conversation, which really confuses me. All of these things are really important, but a lot of that is too subtle for me. 

    Everytime I finished a post I re-read it and get the impression that to a native speaker what I wrote probably sounds like completely incoherent, crazed, unrespectful rambling of a guy who tries to sound way smarter than he is. This probably is just paranoia on my part, and I never got any warning or anything, but just in case I just want to state that I still am pretty new to this site and have a lot of respect for all the other people around here, most of which are much more knowledgeable than me - even when I disagree with them. 

  5. In 1968 Arthur C Clarke wrote a famous novel about a starship of scientists trying to fly to Saturn with a fully sentient supercomputer. This book is called 2001: A Space Odyssee. Some time later he wrote a sequel: 2010: The Year we Make Contact. As you without a doubt know, we - in 2019 - have - as far as I know - not yet made contact with any alien species, nor are we even close to sending people to Saturn. And yet in 1968, it seemed plausible that we might have by 2010. And of course, today nobody knows what technology will look like in 2050 for example. Will we have flying cars and autonomous driving? Or will the newest innovation be yet another new iPhone? Who knows, maybe we will even have regressed technologically. It is almost impossible to accurately predict how fast a civilisation will develop technologies. IRL we only have one humanity whose history we can compare Roshar's to and as far as we know, our development could have all gone completely different. You cannot really base empirical arguments on something that happened only once. So saying that Roshar "should have" developed faster or slower or anything is completely impossible. On Scadrial Allomancy and Feruchemy were known to their respective users for hundreds of years. On Roshar, Surgebinding has gone basically extinct. Fabrials meanwhile don't seem to be of much scientific interest, weird as it may be. Navani's interest in Fabrials is seen as more of a hobby even by herself and Shallan does not seem particularly interested in Fabrials. Jasnah herself is apparently more focused on sciences like sociology, history, theology and (political) philosophy, less on natural sciences. Of course Fabrial sciences exist, otherwise the half-shards and the various other advances in Fabrials that you named couldn't be explained. But we don't know how long the research into Fabrials exists. After all, spren are completely natural to the people of Roshar. You see dozens of spren every day, they are just like cremlings. It's not anything special to see one, they are basically like singbirds or bugs in real life - pieces of wildlife that you definitely see but that you don't really think about a lot. Ornithology and entomology are rather new sciences as well, historically speaking. Spren sciences might be rather new to Roshar as well. Especially because, as Shallan demonstrates - and was supposed to demonstrate - scientists for the longest time were not specialised at a specific topic. Charles Darwin was geologist, botanicist, zoologist, theologist and (in a way) even a geneticist. As revolutionary as the evolutionary theory of Darwin is, compared to modern biological studies it seems rather vague and unspecific - because when he lived, sciences were mixed and their knowledge was much broader. I always assumed that was a cultural quirk of Tashikk and an old tradition, but I might have missed something. What makes you think it's recent? In the history of science things frequently were discocered and re-discovered. Electricity was first discovered by the ancient Greek and in fact there are even signs that a few very, very primitive batteries were designed in antiquity. But apparently, humanity forgot about them again for about a thousand years. America was "discovered" at least three seperate times. Thomas More's utopia basically describes communism a few hundred years before Marx was even born. The Romans were already using a form of concrete for their buildings, in the middle ages their successors didn't. Fact is, ideas come and go all the time. You also need to remember the educational system of a medieval society - more than 90% of the population was living outside the towns, where the innovations that the few city-dwellers and noblemen discovered simply never really arrived. Farmers in, for example France, would pretty much live the same in 500 AD and in 1500 AD. Their clothes might have looked a little different, their language shifted a little and their landlords would probably have a different name. But their everyday life and their standards of life didn't. Until the Industrial revolution, progress and innovation were things that happen in cities and monasteries, but not on the land. All of that slows down technological development. The Vorin Kingdoms have a caste system of 10 levels of nahn and 10 levels of dahn. Since Kaladin's mother in the 2nd Nahn was not a scholar, I am going to assume that women from the nahn-castes might be literate, but not really expected to be scholars or scientists. Seeing how Kaladin's/Azure's squad in Kholinar was composed of lighteyes of low dahn, but who were still basically identical to darkeyes soldiers, I am going to extend these speculations to the lower dahns. I am going to assume that women from Dahn 1 - 7 have enough access to good education and the scientific community to contribute to science in a meaningful way. That would be 7 castes of 20, which means that - assuming that the dahn and nahn all have the same amount of members - 35% of women may be scholars. However Dahns 1 and 2 consist only of the King and his closer family - if you ignore those few people we are left with 5 of 18 castes, which would be 28% of women. Furthermore, this model assumes that 1) there are exactly as many members of dahn 3 as in nahn 10 - which obviously isn't the case, 2) That all of the women have chosen devotaries that encourage scientific progress, 3) That these women do not have to take care of their household, children or their husbands and 4) That all of these women engage in natural science instead of history or linguistics or arts. I am to lazy to do any more maths now but I estimate that that would leave maybe 5% of all women, which means 2,5% of Alethi in charge of ALL sciences and arts. And, as already said, scholars like Shallan basically try to study everything at once, which - given the level of social progress in Roshar - is unavoidable, but also very inefficient. Okay, now I'm confused. You think that after the Recreance the Fabrials replaced the Radiants, but you also say that Regeowth Fabrials were lost after the last desolation - before the Recreance?Besides, many types of spren are rare or unique, and it's quite likely that there never really were many of them. Furthermore, the most advanced Fabrials we've seen so far were in Urithiru. I imagine that the progress of Fabrial-sciences in the rest of the world may have been much slower than the Fabrials in Urithiru. Apart from that, the situation of the spren has changed. Honor has been splintered in the meantime - which obviously had an effect on the spren, who see themselves as "little pieces of gods". Since the Recreance, spren also have developed a preference for the CR. I think Wyndle said in Edgedancer that the Cryptics and Cultivationspren have decided to send spren into the PR again, which suggests that the sentient spren have remained in Shadesmar for a long time. And while I don't want to speculate about Fabrials and spren at this point, I can imagine that it would have an effect on Growth-based magics if Cultivationspren and Truthwatcher-Spren stay away from the PR. Did progress only occur in Jah Keved and Alethkar? I mean, we usually see things only from the Alethis' perspective, right? Tashikk at least has a lot of spanreeds, which I remember you mentioned as evidence for rapid technological progress. Apart from that, the Makabaki had a genocide happen a few hundred years before. Countless Makabaki were slaughtered by Sadees the Sunmaker. The technological impact such events had on similiar civilisations in real life is huge. I would say that the various muslimic countries in the near east for example never one-hundred-percently recovered from the thousands of deaths caused by Genghis Khan and the Christian Crusaders around 1000 - 1200 AD. And famines do not necessarily foster innovation. Innovation happens in cities, famines meanwhile affect the poor and the farmers first. Take 1789 for example: Louis XVI found out the hard way that the educated upper classes often don't quite perceive the problems of the common people. I think the character changes in Gavilar are not really meant to imply that he became stupider. He just became more "weird", more interested into religion and mysticism. Just like people perceived Dalinar as weird in WoK. We know that he had some rather interesting guests shortly before his death and that he possessed some cosmere-awareness that can not be explained with his SoH-membership. I really don't think Odium's forces are willing to soothe people's emotions. It doesn't really fit Odiums MO. And while I am all in favour of Odium representing more emotions than just hatred and rage, I really don't think scientific curiosity is part of his portfolio. Of course there is nothing that really proves your theory wrong and I think it would fit very well to Odium's established strategy. But - an unnamed Unmade, not described in Mythica, who covers the entirety of Roshar (!) despite WoB saying that the Unmade have less investiture than the Stormfather... I find that hard to believe, because usually such things are foreshadowed better in his books. And I think the backstory of repeated war, plus the influence of a conservative clerus, a caste system, dependence of a highly unpredictable ressource (spren), the lack of print, the conflation of science and arts, the fact that 50% of the population cannot read, the difficulty of building infrastructure due to highstorms and the complete disappearance of a magic system that humanity had relied on for millenia - all those are already major obstacles for a progressive society.
  6. Stick has its own Coppermind page? ...Oh, why am I even surprised? Of course stick has its own coppermind page... Edit: ...Which I've actually read just now. What am I doing with my life?
  7. Soulcasting/Dividing a herald might be rather difficult, because of all the investiture they contain. And - I might be wrong about this - the honorblades should be back to their hands ten heartbeats later, right? (Maybe even less than ten heartbeats - I think Adolin's semi-sentient blade only needed 6 or 7 heartbeats, fully sentient spren-blades are just summoned instantaneously. "Sprenblades" are a spren's condensed investiture, Shardblades are a dead spren's condensed investiture. The honorblades we know are a dead shard's condensed investiture. We don't know for sure how honorblades worked back when Honor was still alive, I can imagine they would just appear without the "ten heartbeats")
  8. A Herald is technically just a Cognitive Shadow attached to an "artificial" body that didn't originally belong to them, right? We know that some things, like Kaladin's scars cannot be healed because of the way he sees himself. If a Herald thinks of his new body as something that doesn't belong to them, is Stormlight-based healing of that body even possible? I mean, I think that they probably were able to heal, because otherwise they would be rather "underpowered", but right now I can't really think of any scene where it explicitly says that Heralds can heal.
  9. I think we might have seen the growth-aspect of Progression used on a person in OB. There was one point during the battle where Kaladin was fighting Amaram and some voidbringers. I think one of them attacked Kaladin with a club of carapace that grew out of its body. I remember that I wondered if that was maybe a (voidish?) form of Progression, that they applied to themselves.
  10. ...especially because said ex-genocidal tyrant's moral code is actually taken from an obscure centuries-old book of koans that he couldn't even read until recently. Just imagine what moral decision in the Szeth-Dalinar hierarchy must look like. "This Taravangian guy looks evil, let's kill him". "Master Dalinar, my sword wants to know if this man is evil" "Hmmmm... He is just doing what he thinks is right. I ... am not sure. Wait, I need to consult the Word of Kings on that."
  11. I think Nale will die in SA 4 or maybe in the first half of SA 5. When Odium and Dalinar are talking for the first time, Nale and the Skybreakers are Odium's best example of a world without passion, as Honor would have wanted it to be. Nale also explicitly says that he thinks that the singers are the legitimate rulers of Roshar and that's why he changes sides. He is fighting for the singers, not Odium. And with Venli as a radiant, I see a possible singer revolution happening. Nale will fight for Odium - and Odium, being ressourceful, will keep him as a tool until the other heralds are dead. Nale will become increasingly uncooperative until Odium eventually decides that he has become a risk and kills Nale. Most Skybreakers will suddenly be left without their external moral compass, be unable to make any real decisions and then Szeth will pick up the role, as one of the most powerful Skybreakers with a well-functioning external moral code (i.e. Dalinar). That is obviously all just speculation, and I really think it's almost impossible to predict the plot twists in a Sanderson series, but we already know Szeth is going to become a major character in SA 5 and if he acquired the leadership of the Skybreakers that would be a very interesting development. Furthermore, Nale is living on borrowed time since Odium wants to destroy the Oathpact. Besides, the fact that a lot of Skybreakers have made an Oath to follow Nale seems like it could be foreshadowing something like this. Also, I can really see Szeth and the Skybreakers having some sort of "Gwaihir-moment" in one of the later books.
  12. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Szeth let go of his Honorblade himself? It's not like "being shoved onto the street" and more like "jumping in front of a car". Besides, I think there's a difference between killing an enemy immediately as soon as you can, and hesitating to kill the opponent to consider at least for a moment to spare him out of pity. The end result is the same, but the implications for Kaladin's sense of morality are different. The way the scene is written now makes Kaladin less of a cold-blooded killer, it shows that taking someone's life is a difficult choice for Kaladin.
  13. Except that she didn't really know it would take choice away from them entirely, and that what she wanted was - among others - prosperity for her people. And the fact that she was uninfluenced by stormform might imply that she already was under some supernatural influence. Anyway, I think it's too early to judge before knowing her backstory - Dalinar already demonstrated how much can be changed by that. It would be fitting for her to die in SA 9, I think - since Eshonai died in book 2 and SA has this whole symmetry-motif. Considering that SA4 will be her and/or Eshonai's book, I rather doubt she'll die. That would be a waste of the character development she will most likely receive. And I thought I was the only one...
  14. I'm still not really convinced, especially because Odium never really seems to consider the "Passion" that he is corrupting and/or reinforcing to be something that needs to be punished, nor does he ever suggest that his manipulation of them is somehow meant to be a punishment. He always seems to consider them something good. By the way, Fractalfire, where do you get the impression from that the Pre-Nergaoul Alethi were somehow more bloodthirsty than the other peoples of Roshar? Because I always thought that Nergaoul was solely responsible for that. But anyway, there is one thing that this theory admittedly explains rather well: Rayse. I mean, we need a person who is picked to be the host for a shard like Odium, who is furthermore also happy with his new state of being and who nevertheless was not so amoral that Hoid would have disliked him. According to WOB they used to be friends after all, and while Hoid might not be perfectly moral, he certainly wouldn't befriend the "Pure Evil" that what we know about Rayse would imply he was. This interpretation of Odium as someone who basically hates people because of their flaws suggests that Rayse might just have been a deeply pessimistic cynic who only ever sees the worst in people. That would explain why he got the shard Odium and the idea that his corruption is "punishment" would explain why he would want to keep the shard. It also would explain why Hoid would have been a friend of his - and if you think that everyone around you is amoral scum you are of course more inclined to be egotistical yourself, or at least can justify your egotism. It would certainly make Rayse/Odium a more interesting character than he seems to be now.
  15. Ah, storm it, I think I somehow actually used to know that thing with the mist-spirit at some point, but forgot about it later. I really intend to read Secret History, but I never seem to get around to getting it. And last time I checked it was only available in English as well. (And sadly, I'm also at least somewhat spoilered by now) I see how Odium would be willing to just kill everyone, including his allies, because the whole point of KandraAllomancer's post was that Odium is incapable of seeing anyone as anything but "imperfect". What I don't understand is why Odium would not only ally with the worse of the two groups first - shouldn't the destruction of the even more flawed and imperfect Fused have priority over the destruction of the Alethi? Especially because - and this is the second problem - most of the Alethi's big flaws are results of their exposure to Nergaoul. If Odium hates humanity because of their flaws, then why does his every action serve to make these flaws worse? I can see how Odium could say "they are too flawed, they cannot be helped" and not try to improve the situation - but what Odium is doing is something else. He actively works to corrupt people. If he is driven by hatred of imperfection, then that is completely counterproductive. That's like intentionally emptying your garbage bin in your living room before you want to tidy up. All of the big problems of Roshar can be traced back to Odium - and yet those problems are supposed to be the reason he hates Roshar? Besides, if Odium is driven by a hatred for everything imperfect - i.e. a hatred for everything - then why is Odium trying to destroy Roshar but not Sel? He had a shardworld full of despicable, flawed and imperfect humans without any shards left to protect them. Instead he goes off to kill Honor first. That seems to go against his supposed intent. And last but not least - If that cynism and dissatisfaction with everything really is his motivation, then why does Odium - a shard whose splinters, the Unmade, basically pieces of his own being torn out and given individuality, are spending their entire existence doing nothing but spreading and reinforcing the very same imperfection Odium hates - how can a being that is that intrinsically tied to the concept of corruption and moral decay - be so convinced that itself is somehow better than those it fights against? Sure, Odium IS lying to itself - but I cannot believe that a shard that is basically the personification of seeing things worse than they really are, would be able to deceive itself into believing itself good.