Awaken Returner

While relistening to Words of Radiance, I noticed something odd. When Shallan finally activates the Oathgate, she remarks that “they have been moved opposite crem.” Adolin had to cut a doorway. The question being, should that not have been possible? In Oathbringer, Oathgates were described to have functioned by transporting the whole device alongside anything on it. I recall Dalinar mentioning he could have transported Azimir’s dome to Urithiru. If Oathgates functioned by transporting the platforms (control building included) and not just the contents, should not have Stormseat’s Oathgate transported itself to Urithiru? If so, should not the sealed control room from Urithiru moved itself to the Shattered Plains? I imagine the Oathgates used to function by only transporting the people and objects on top of the platform in Words of Radiance and were retconned into transporting the entire device as well in Oathbringer. If anyone has the exact lines that would be helpful. — Sorry about the disappearing posts, thanks for answering though! Posted twice on accident. Sorry on mobile. — I realize you could choose how much is transported, but on WoR they transported the whole thing. The crem should not have been there.

Shower thought: Breaths are the substance of Endowment, and she invests every person born in Nalthis with a single breath. Should Endowment, for some reason, distill her Investiture across trillions of souls in an ecomenopolis future Nalthis such that she would essentially lose her Shard to the invested populace and each invested individual were to store their Breaths into a single inanimate object, a stick for example. Would that stick ascend into Godhood or would it simply store the Shard of Endowment? We know even "littles pieces of divinity" tend to come alive as Investiture "wants to live", that inanimate objects have "spirits", and highly invested objects become sentient ie. NightBlood, could an inanimate object become a vessel?

I realize this has been discussed prior, but I feel unsatisfied by the topic’s resolution. I wish to have it explored further. Simply, if a person dies invested, does their consciousness persist through their cognitive shadow? Based upon how Mistborn: Secret History was worded, I am inclined to believe so. The reader has no reason from the wording to infer that Kelseir was merely recalling dying as if from the memory of his past self, instead, the wording seemingly suggests the active, present experience of death through the eyes of Kelsier. What do you guys think? -Replies- An interesting argument. Such is however tied toward the idea that sleep does incur a definite “break” in consciousness. Even discounting the presence of dreams, the continued activity of the brain, from which consciousness stems, during sleep as seen through EEG, makes me inclined to think sleep as a “mode” or state of consciousness rather than its temporary termination. Indeed unifying the concept of consciousness and being conscious to the living “self” that exists and is aware of its existence seems strange to me. Perhaps my mind merely revolts at the Arclo’s supposition, but I digress. Supposing a hypothetical true break in consciousness as you have suggested, it would be impossible for an outsider to tell whether the story tells of the same Kelseir. We must therefore look upon the evidence provided by the precise wording of BS. So far as I can tell, no clean break seems to have occurred, though I might need to listen to Secret History once more to be sure. There should be an “objective” answer relative to the systems of order present within the Cosmere. Whether or not the soul which passes “contains?” or is the individual is, or neither, I agree, not knowable based upon current evidence. - As for the question; if I lose all my memories and accumulated new ones would I still be the same me? Depends on the definition of what we mean when we say the self or personhood I think. Yes, in a sense, I would not understand or recognize myself as the same “person” but I would recognize my current consciousness as the present continuation of my existence. Do memories make us who we are? in a way, but also no. Memories and ideals change the way we view ourselves as being, but it does not change our fundamental essence and existence (that we exist, that we are aware of it, and that there are attributes that, whether ordained by the divine or a simple consequence of our evolution, make us “human”, “singer”, “Kandra”, or simply people) We are not because we think but because simply we are. As for the philosophical ship for instance, it only exists because we perceive it as a ship, regardless of whether we consider it the same or not. But for people (and sapient life in general), there is an awareness that makes us distinct from the rest of the universe (such that even without constructs that “aware individual” still remains) and I refer to this continuing existence and consciousness as the core of the self. I guess the question to be asked is, if you were born with someone else’s memories would you recognize yourself as just having been born? As for people changing with every moment, our idea of our personal identity does change with every passing moment as it evolves, but I refer to the continuous “consciousness” of the aware being. I guess I’m asking whether, if I experienced dying as Kelsier, if I would also experience Secret History or if someone else, with my face and memories would. But I agree, BS probably will keep it a mystery. It is a very subjective thing and people will have different interpretations. ps. Thanks for all the replies guys! It was definitely an interesting discussion for me.

I guess I should work more on my phrasing, thanks though. I was wondering more on the implications of having early-flight mechanisms in Nalthis through Awakening if the process worked as I had understood it in my reading.

Could Awakened objects fly? We know that Awakened Objects, so long as their material allows it, can move despite the lack of any obvious mechanism like hydraulics or gear systems to substitute muscle and sinew structures. An Awakened rope can move to bind its targets by itself, and an Awakened doll can walk by itself, without the additional weight a workable engine would require. If you created a bird paper-mache with the proper body-ratios and built-in weights to off-set wind resistance, could it fly? Renaissance and early Industrial ideas of Flying Machines usually failed because of the inefficiency of their designs with regards to lifting power and engine weight. An Awakened flying machine wouldn't need that. You could create Flying Machines that didn't operate based on propulsion technologies or airship concepts. Nalthis could possibly create plane-like vehicles who operated more similarly to living birds. A sufficiently durable organic material could be used for the wing alongside a wooden skeleton with each part being Awakened individually as to lessen the demands for complex commands. You could tell the each part of the plane to respond based on the movement of light-weight levers for precise aerial manoeuvres. The lack of a heavy engine would mean that, given a large enough wing-span, the construct would be able to feasibly fly. Storage capacity would probably be very limited, but the ability of Nalthis to construct, and possibly mass produce with a more widespread Breath collection drive, relatively early flight designs might prove to be a significant asset. Awakened scouting and logistics planes could help to spearhead Nathean exploration and expansion. Even once they've developed modern designs, the ability to substitute with Breath aircraft weight could lend to some efficient and interesting types of aircraft. --- Drone technologies might be available to Nalthis earlier than in other worlds. For militaristic capacity you could have Awakened bird-like creatures drop dynamite on target positions (or you could also use lifeless birds) The usage of lifeless in the Manywar seem to tackle the theme of dehumanised warfare already. With regular lifeless armies you could theoretically have a population whose culture is separated from the very notion of war even when amidst a large scale conflict. Alongside modern-styled Awakened / lifeless drones-the contrast in between older forms of combat like formal warfare against modern-age conflict could also become more quickly readily apparent. I'm not sure if I'd like to read of a bleak world-war type conflict in a world literally based on colour and life though.

Yeah, you'd probably not be able to use attached wings to fly, feathered or otherwise, without another magic system allowing for it to do so. The human body isn't really that aerodynamic. You could ask a Windrunner friend to lash you but then you would be better off simply using the lashing to fly in the first place. You might need to change your whole body structure completely to account for workable wings - transforming into a large bird maybe. Though, as has been noted, species change might be too difficult for even a skilled Soulcaster to manage without seriously hurting themselves even through Stormlight healing. I think the main strength here would still be the potential to Soulcast yourself bodies with inherent magical properties like Mistwraiths (so you could spike yourself); otherwise you could possibly induce or cure Savantism, grant yourself Larkin-like abilities somehow, or give yourself a workable gemheart (specie changing into a half or full parshendi?) to make use of the different forms. As for other opportunities with this kind of Soulcasting though, I think there's some interesting interactions it could have with Awakening. Soulcasting a corpse into a dragon-like creature and then turning it into a lifeless might be feasible. --- Now that I think of it, Iron Metalminds might help you fly with Soulcast wings. The act of filling a Metalmind doesn't really require much effort on the part of the Ferring or Medallion holder, and once you've Soulcast wings, you should be able to sustain on-demand personal flight without need for additional investiture. I'd get it for something like angelic wings if nothing else.

A fun idea at the very least...probably. The overwhelming pain thing was a really good point, I doubt Stormlight could ease much of that even if the transformation was performed by a particularly well-read and studied student of human and animal anatomy. The Dragon of Roshar has a pretty good ring to it, especially with that Elsecaller character. I can just imagine his / her plan to become a dragon. For science!

High-level Soulcasting seems to involve at least one of three things. First, the ability to at all influence a change in an object's essence especially when the targeted result is conceptually 'far' from the spren's current state. Second, the ability to perform precise Soulcastings. Third, the ability to 'accurately' Soulcast something. The better you are at Soulcasting, the less general your changes are. In this case we'd compare generic Soulcast grain and meat against proper Strawberry Jam or chicken-flavoured meat. Aside from blood purification, however, most of what we've seen of Soulcasting's greatest feats involve changing a targeted object's essence into another rather than changing a target into an object within its own essence. Further, we've really only read about one highly proficient Soulcaster, Jasnah, whose specialties don't lie in the Soulcasting of the blood essence, the essence most likely closest related to life. While transforming armies into fire or creating metal barriers from thin air is impressive, I think a very significant part of Soulcasting's potential lies beyond Jasnah's proficiencies. What if we had a character whose Soulcasting abilities rivaled Jasnah's but whose specialties lay in the blood essence? Can you Soulcast a person physically without killing them? If so... Could a Soulcaster precisely pinpoint precise parts of their body, their bones and skin for example to make them harder and more durable? Could you Soulcast your body features to disguise yourself? What about Soulcasting your sensory organs to make the them more effective tools (bat's sense of hearing, cat's eyesight, etc.) Could you Soulcast your internal organ structures such that it could and houses a gemheart? Could you Soulcast air and mend it to your body as workable wings? (Basically fooling your body that you've always had the wings and attaching them to your nervous system, among others, to make them usable) Could you change your species with Soulcasting? Maybe you could turn yourself into a Mistwraith or transform a Kandra into a human. (The Nightwatcher can apparently do this so I'm wondering if Cultivation's Investiture could allow a Soulcaster to do this as well) Most importantly, could you Soulcast the surrounding air and ground into you as to add to your overall mass and change your body structure such that you become a dragon? Assuming you could trick your body into accepting the changes brought by Soulcasting, maybe Lightweaving would help, and the changes you've made to your body are plausible and workable (circulatory, nervous, skeletal, etc. systems are all properly accounted for) it should be possible right? --- Stone skin or bones would probably be impractical I guess. As for more organic methods, you'd have to change a lot more about someone's body structure to account for denser bones and tougher flesh.

Personally, I'd like to read more about Teft. While he, Rock, and Moash took relatively similar screen times in Way of Kings, I can't help but feel that Moash kind of stole most of the camera's focus during Words of Radiance. I think his journey overcoming his fire-moss addiction and overall unhealthy self loathing to become a fully-fledged Windrunner would be very satisfying. (I imagine his character arc will partly culminate with a conflict against Ashertmarn). The backstory of the Envisagers might also shed some light on the Sons of Honour and the Skybreakers; their sudden mass executions, given the fact that they weren't really posing a threat to the rest of the populace, seem too suspicious to me.

Granted, you lose the ability to distinguish different kinds of birds and Alethi Chefs prepare you a variety of different definitely chicken-based delicacies. I wish for five boons.

Interesting; now I'm speculating that, if the Nightwatcher's curses work by rewriting your indentity such that standard magic can't find anything to correct, her abilities might actually work very similarly to Soulcasting. When an object is Soulcast into another essence, while it does remember its past form, as far as it's concerned, its current state is its real state and therefore sustain their current form a long time after the Investiture used to Soulcast them has run out. (unlike basic Awakening or Soul Stamping which both decay) I'd assume that if someone Soulcast a part of your body into a different material, you wouldn't be able to heal it with Stormlight. While the body part still will recognise that it is a part of you, it will also believe that its natural state is of whatever it was Soulcast into.

Would an identity medallion help? On another note, if the Nightwatcher attaches her curses directly to someone's spirit web, would it be possible to use Hemalurgy to steal it? There are some boons / banes which would be very useful at certain points in time but detrimental in most others; being able to collect Nightwatcher spikes to use at will would give someone the most diverse and bizarre personal magic system in the Cosmere. if you're able to store Nightwatcher spells inside metal you would be able to technically heal yourself periodically from the Nightwatcher's magic while still being able to reap the benefits of her boons. Of course, you would have to use Hemalurgy on the original recipient... --- Oh well. the identity medallions were worth a shot. --- relevant post; should have probably looked this up first

Can Stormlight, or any form of Investiture for that matter, 'heal' you from the effects of a Nightwatcher-given bane? Let's say the Nightwatcher's curse inverts your sight, will you be able to use Stormlight to revert your vision back into what you perceive to be their usual state? What if she takes your arm away, could you likewise regrow it or will the Nightwatcher's curse somehow resist its healing? If it can, then how feasible is it to break the curse through sheer Investiture? How much of the Nightwatcher's influence, if at all is left to any given recipient of her blessings? Will a compounding bloodmaker be able to heal from wound cursed to never heal? Can a Soulcaster standing in middle of a Highstorm change a transformation made by the Nightwatcher? We haven't really seen the interactions between Stormlight and Old Magic boons and banes; a lot of her mechanics are probably very reliant on how heavily invested she is as a splinter I think.

I will admit, wooden hands sound kind of cool. Granted, but you now have a personal moisture cloud following you around. I wish for the ability to visit and leave Nalthis at will.

Granted, you lose your eyes and now see through blue Allomantic lines emanating from your chest. I wish I was bonded to a cryptic.

While Elsecallers might be more proficient in both the Shadesmar-'aligned' surges compared to either the Willshapers or the Lightweavers, I'd wager that in terms of achieving more 'specialised' effects, the other two radiant orders might have them beat. I'm particularly interested in the interaction in between Lightweaving and Soulcasting. Lightweaving tackles the themes of truths and lies; on how lies may emerge from truths and truths emerge from lies. When the world believes a lie does it become truth? Maybe not, but the grander - the more alluring - the lie the more we are attracted to believe in it; and the moment we do, we act upon those newfound convictions. While the staunchest of people may be 'Soulcast' by Lightweavers into (for better or worse) different versions of themselves through false, perfect ideals, spren may also be similarly prone to the additional transformative effects of a Lightweaver's Soulcasting. In effect, a Lightweaver might have, contrary to the infamous stick incident, an easier time convincing the spren of objects and people to change granted they know enough about what they are trying to change. Because of this, the Lightweavers would probably be more able than the Elsecallers in calling forth dramatic Soulcastings like creating exotic matter. Whether or not exotic matter can be created is a different matter nearly altogether. Did fire spren exist before men thought of the concept of 'fire'? The concept of Soulcasting is deeply intertwined with social constructs-truths and lies. It seems apparent that even without man to observe it, fire would exist, however, conceptually it would not be viewed separately from the rest of the universe at large as there would be no sapient creature to divide and organise it for its her own understanding. Fire spren would probably exist without man though probably not in the form Rosharians are familiar with it - regardless, the 'ingredients' to make a fire spren would exist because there is such a phenomenon of a chemical reaction which could eventually be observed and understood as 'fire'. If dark matter does exist within the Cosmere, then the moment it is conceptualised, it would be separated from the greater whole and categorised individually, creating dark matter spren. The lie or construct, in this case, could only exist because the 'truth' of it as a 'thing' to be observed has first existed. It's probably possible for a sufficiently skilled and knowledgable Soulcaster to transform something into dark matter if dark matter does exist, though given the sheer difference exotic substances in general have in comparison to the ten basic essences, you might need a Lightweaver to do it successfully.

Burning bright, / alight cross / golden hope / golden cross, / a light bright burning. Mistborn Final Empire Spoilers: Here's hoping to the restoration of a cultural treasure.

Granted, you now have less time to sleep. I wish I was less shy.

Elsecallers would have a unique research opportunity in exotic matter at the very least. If a Soulcaster were able to convince an object to adopt negative mass for example, they might be able to create a system wherein a theoretical wormhole for faster-than-light travel could be sustained. Alternatively, they'd also be able to research rarer forms of matter like Bose-Einstein Condensates. I could see someone like Jasnah being very interested in the applications of Soulcasting in theoretical physics.

Just an odd thought; if you awakened a robot, let's say something like a Boston Dynamics dog, with the heightening that lets you awaken metal, what would happen? On a similar note, if you awakened something with a connection to the internet or other robots, Siri, Alexa, or Internet of Things in general, would the awakened object still have a connection to them Protoss or hivemind style? Does having advanced A.I. give the resulting awakened object a greater cognitive ability than usual? More still, can Cosmere artificial intelligences even be awakened? Brandon Sanderson is also an avid Science Fiction reader after all and the topic of robot 'souls' and freedom is one that comes up often. If a robot does have a 'alive' aspect to it, it might even be able to become an awakener itself. (Robots programmed with Radiant Oaths à la Isaac Asimov's rules of robotics also come into mind) Really can't wait for Sci-Fi Nalthis (or Cosmere in general) now. --- Edit --- (found relevant post) Seems like sufficiently advanced artificial intelligences do have 'souls'; Where does the robot's soul come from though? The software, hardware, both? Cosmere robots will be so fun to read. --- What if your society hasn't developed sapient A.I. yet though? Would trying to awaken a robot designed to act like a robot or animal be easier to awaken than your run-of-the-mill lump of metal? Awakening seeks patterns of life, and given that robots with sufficiently advanced software can already constitute life, it's probably likelier that there exists at least some type of unique effect that occurs when awakening them. I'm assuming a sapient machine can still interface with non-sapient machines and, as was suggested previously, 'jump bodies' with them. What about awakened 'just decent enough A.I.' robots though? Could they do the same? We know somewhat the advantages extra breaths offers the average awakener, but depending on how Type IVs work, life-'endowed' robots might be in certain respects better than their 'naturally' sapient counterparts I think. Can a sapient robot interface with a breath-awakened robot?

Awakening 'seeks patterns of life', and because of this its a,) easier to awaken things related to life (wool cloth), b.) shaped like life (particularly humanoid), and c.) things which were once alive (wood). I suspect that the difference of whether or not an object awakens regularly or instead becomes a lifeless is dependent upon whether or not the objects realmatically sees itself as being still alive rather than completely dead but with the memory of life. (I theorise that older corpses a generally harder to awaken even if well preserved than new corpses for this reason) I think it might be as difficult to awaken coal as it is to awaken stone despite coal's and for that matter oil's connection to ancient life due to the sheer time elapsed. We haven't really seen anyone try to awaken a whole dead plant before, but we have seen them awaken things related to plants. (ropes, etc.) If you were to awaken a tree which has just recently died would it see itself as being alive enough to become a lifeless? Simpler, can you make Ents using Awakening? --- Would it know how to move its legs if you carve them into it quickly enough? Maybe with the same movement mechanism as the cloth or rope it still could regardless (Trees branches and roots are surprisingly flexible). @Faceless Mist-Wraith

Vivenna's blade still seemed to have some of Nightblood's properties (the perma-death / separation from all three realms part I think) as the Fused were not really that enthusiastic about charging her down that one time. So even without the Investiture hyper-drain, it might still be worth powering a human-shaped assault drone with the Breath-based power sources and artificial intelligences through greater Awakening. Though, if you built a robot with propulsion technologies and then invested it, would it know how to use them to fly? Will investiture improve them? If the alloy they're constructed of is stronger than uninvested stone they should serve the 'indestructible warriors' part well. Having them carry those artificial Shardblades (maybe instead integrating them into their structure) will make them defacto Windrunner style soldiers. Hopefully Breath also somehow enhances their projectile weaponry. Regardless, I think there's a lot Awakening can do that we haven't seen done yet. I'm really excited to see what the Sanderman does with them in the future. Edit^ I guess I misread that part from Oathbringer-no one in their right mind would charge a possible Shardblade after all. It seems Nightblood is special on both the Investiture drain and perma-death parts. Sorry about double posting! I'm kinda new. Thanks @Scion of the Mists! How do I edit the posts I've already made to place them all in one area and delete the double posts? I could totally see Endowment gifting free Breath to people. She did seem unconcerned about that whole Roshar thing that one guy was going on about. If ever she encounters a threat, she could just endow random individuals with absurd heightening levels to deal with it. I actually think Endowment is the strongest shard in this aspect, being that Endowment is her nature. (vs. Honor and Large Living Mistborn Spoiler) That said, she might have the most 'freedom' in handling her Investiture. (Can you 'un'-endow someone though, like, 'I endow you with not having this endowment!' kind of thing?) I can definitely see that being an interesting plot point in the future. Not really sure how spoilery the next bit is so I'll just brand it something like an overall Cosmere spoiler,

I'm sure walking-possibly flying-'Nightbloods' with highly invested modern weaponry would make quick work of the Fused though (not sure about the Unmade yet). Actually, now that I thought more about it, I'm actually curious if an Awakener can even safely invest something with that many Breaths at all. If what they Awaken acts anything like Nightblood, it will probably syphon all Investiture around a large radius of it at a really fast pace, effectively creating a magical 'dead zone' à la Larry Niven's Warlock Wheels. Soul eating blackhole-like bombs still count as effective weapons though.

Hi guys! So, when I first read Warbreaker, I kind of fell in love with the magic system. Unlike your average Surgebinder or Allomancer, who could probably brute force a problem with Stormlight or Flared Pewter, an Awakener really had to understand how to use their abilities in order to do anything really. For the longest time I thought Awakening was one of the 'weaker' magic systems in the Cosmere, but then I had an odd thought about power scaling. Unlike Surgebinding, which grows through oaths, and Allomancy, which increases in strength through burning a certain metal, Awakening can scale with raw population numbers. Everyone on Nalthis is born with Breath. Once Nalthis enters the modern or sci-fi era of the Cosmere, its largest city centres should each house millions of people. If a government manages to conduct a Breath collection project on a larger scale than Hallendren's - a forced tax maybe?, it might feasibly create an Awakener with millions of Breath. Apparently, Nightblood was formed with the Ninth Heightening, which according to the Coppermind requires approximately 20, 000 Breaths. If an Awakener with a million breaths invested something, how much stronger will the Type IV Bio Chromatic Entity they create be stronger than Nightblood? Personally, I like to imagine that Sci-fi Nalthis will build Breath powered Gundam-esque super robots as weapons against threats like Odium-if he's still somehow alive by then-with their commands being something like, "Splinter Odium" or "Destroy what I tell you to destroy". What do you guys think? --- I'm sure walking-possibly flying-'Nightbloods' with highly invested modern weaponry would make quick work of the Fused though (not sure about the Unmade yet). --- Actually, now that I thought more about it, I'm actually curious if an Awakener can even safely invest something with that many Breaths at all. If what they Awaken acts anything like Nightblood, it will probably syphon all Investiture around a large radius of it at a really fast pace, effectively creating a magical 'dead zone' à la Larry Niven's Warlock Wheels. Soul eating blackhole-like bombs still count as effective weapons though. --- Vivenna's blade still seemed to have some of Nightblood's properties (the perma-death / separation from all three realms part I think) as the Fused were not really that enthusiastic about charging her down that one time. So even without the Investiture hyper-drain, it might still be worth powering a human-shaped assault drone with the Breath-based power sources and artificial intelligences through greater Awakening. Though, if you built a robot with propulsion technologies and then invested it, would it know how to use them to fly? Will investiture improve them? If the alloy they're constructed of is stronger than uninvested stone they should serve the 'indestructible warriors' part well. Having them carry those artificial Shardblades (maybe instead integrating them into their structure) will make them defacto Windrunner style soldiers. Hopefully Breath also somehow enhances their projectile weaponry. Regardless, I think there's a lot Awakening can do that we haven't seen done yet. I'm really excited to see what the Sanderman does with them in the future. --- I guess I misread that part from Oathbringer-no one in their right mind would charge a possible Shardblade after all. It seems Nightblood is special on both the Investiture drain and perma-death parts. Sorry about double posting! I'm kinda new. Thanks @Scion of the Mists! How do I edit the posts I've already made to place them all in one area and delete the double posts? I could totally see Endowment gifting free Breath to people. She did seem unconcerned about that whole Roshar thing that one guy was going on about. If ever she encounters a threat, she could just endow random individuals with absurd heightening levels to deal with it. I actually think Endowment is the strongest shard in this aspect, being that Endowment is her nature. (vs. Honor and Large Living Mistborn Spoiler) That said, she might have the most 'freedom' in handling her Investiture. (Can you 'un'-endow someone though, like, 'I endow you with not having this endowment!' kind of thing?) I can definitely see that being an interesting plot point in the future. Not really sure how spoilery the next bit is so I'll just brand it something like an overall Cosmere spoiler, --- Thanks again @Scion of the Mists, I've reported the redundant posts. Sorry for the troubles!