Sedside

@Karger, now you are twisting about and exaggerating my arguments. Out of your own, I guess? I have never said Adolin should be drooling over Shallan or act like a Shakespeare character to convince me he is in love with her. I merely said that I would like to read at least ONE sign of love from his side in this last dialog. You say that Adolin showed a lot of signs of love, but you don't give me any quotes, and just insult me with your "wow" and "drooling over".

I would like it to happen, because there are people who don't read books

I see it definitely possible from Adolin's side, but not from Shallan.

Or perhaps he just doesn't love her? Citing Adolin himself - "Sometimes the simplest answer is the right one". You have been creating so many different excuses to explain the fact that he shows no signs of love except for the easiest one - lack of love. Besides, do you think it's impossible to show concern for someone's trauma and love at the same time? Couldn't Sanderson at least write Adolin kissing Shallan himself in the end, instead of asking her to kiss him again? Couldn't one of the lines be "Shallan, I'm so happy! But I'm worried about you"?

Thanks! The other thing I think is hard about spren is how to explain which kind each one is. In the text it's like "an exhaustionspren appeared". In the show how can it be explained properly? And other stuff that is explained in text, but not in direct speech - values of different kinds of spheres, Roshar history (will require additional time screen) and so on. Also, how to properly show Windrunners flying as a fall, and still looking beautiful. Interludes and characters, who appear for short amount of time - in the show it's easy to forget and also seems useless, like why is it here in the first place for a common viewer.

I was pretty sure they were already making a WoK movie. It's still on the script stage, though.

Oh, I haven't seen this on my first reply, I have to disagree with your "they decided to be together" part. It's Shallan who decided to be with Adolin, because she needed an anchor to her "Shallan" persona and also wanted to finally have sex. Again, I'm not talking about Adolin trying to get out of relationship because of Kaladin. I'm talking about that part of dialogue, that came after her tirade of how much she loves him. Just try to imagine it. You are a young man, who is very much in love with a girl, but you see, that she obviously prefers another one. You are betrothed with her, but you have a feeling, that she is just sorry for you and doesn't really want you. So you decide to do the right thing and let her go. That's awesome! That's very respectful to her and yourself, I totally appreciate it and support this kind of decision. Then you go to her and say that. But in reply you hear, that you are wrong, she loves you so so much, she wants to rip your shirt off, and in the end she springs upon you with a passionate kiss. How would you react, if you, I repeat, were an infatuated young man, who was geniunely concerned about her feelings for you and was about to make a tough decision and lose her? I would actually expect something like "Oh, storms, Shallan, I'm so happy! I could never believe you love me!" and probably expect him to kiss her back. But what do we see? Where is happiness? Where is love? Where is relief? He continues searching for excuses. She continues convincing him she really really wants to marry him. Is this the guy that is genuinely in love? Well, you already said, that you think Adolin has shallow feelings for her, this episode just supports it. Shallow feelings and no desire to marry as well. He just wasn't too determined about it and let her persuade him, and I think his overall fear to disappoint his family played a big role here. Fine, then we agree to RAFO it. Though I disagree with theater and literature differences. You really don't have to waste page time for something that doesn't serve any purpose. I think it's a law. Otherwise you should write about every character's visit to the privy. They do it, right? But writers don't write about it, unless it's somehow necessary to the plot, like Adolin's story about Shardplate, that served the purpose of showing, how crazy Shallan could be in a conversation and how Adolin loves to talk about his... emm... well, doesn't matter. Or Witcher spoilers: And still it's just a little piece of text, not a whole plotline with a lot of page time that went nowhere. There is a very good and obvious reason for their shallow interactions in OB. She is betrothed! Kaladin just can't ignore this fact and start pursuing her more obvoiusly. They had three dialogues, one of them was amazing (smile, I need you to smile), one of them started pretty nice, but went astray because of their mental states, the third one was neutral. The whole OB Kaladin was watching Shallan flirting with Adolin before his eyes and listening to her mocking him. What did he have to do? Go tell her he loves her? All he could do was be nice with her and hope she would reply likewise. She didn't. He understood it and walked away. Why didn't she reply likewise? Because she fell apart. She became weaker in OB, so she picked the easier, safer option. She didn't want to confront her feelings, her fears, the society, Jasnah, Navani, everything she believed in during her life, she also decided, that Adolin will help her keep her Shallan persona anchored. It greatly contradicts her previous behaviour towards his overprotectiveness for her. But Shallan persona is the weakest one (I've found one more quote later, but not sure if it is all right to edit post after such a long time, even though noone actually replied to it), so she needed Adolin to keep her present, and "without him she fades". But Kaladin fell for her because of her strength. He thought "this woman was stronger than he'd ever been". She is not that woman anymore. She pushed her strength into Veil and Radiant, but being Veil and Radiant means to face the truth she spoken, and she can't. Ohhh, it seems like we read Shallan too differently then. She didn't ask for any help in WoR and was pretty much all right on her own. She was brilliant, actually, I loved her in WoR much more than I loved Kaladin. I don't think it's a good message at all - if you need help ask for it. I think it's a bad message, actually, every person has to learn to help themselves on their own. To be strong and independent. I think, Knights Radiant are kind of about it too. Wardship is not dependence. It's like the same as to say that being an employed worker is dependence. You can be dependent, of course, being an employee, but if you are a good specialist it's not so. And being a ward is the same - you learn from your superior, if they are willing to teach you. To be married or in a romantic relationship is also not equal being dependent. Two strong independent people can love each other and remain strong and independent, and that's another reason, I think, Kaladin and Shallan didn't yet get together. And will after they both deal with their issues on their own. Without asking for help outside and leaning on someone. Yes, I felt sick, when Shallan decided to marry Adolin because "he knows her" and squeezed her hand on the right time. And because "without him she fades". I don't feel sick when the woman decides to do all by herself. It's good, when woman thinks she doesn't have to depend on a man. This woman is much more attractive to men, than the woman that depends on men and wants their help/emotional/financial support. Everyone can be weak, everyone can ask for help and hope for a sponsor. There is no value for me in such a character. What I would like to read is a strong woman, not this mess "I need his help and protection, oh, I'm a weak girl". Why I think marriage was a mistake, is that Adolin doesn't love her, but she selfishly glues to him to get his help. And as Kaladin felt nauseated for his decision to help kill Elhokar, Shallan would also feel the consequences of sticking to an indifferent man and luring him into marriage. He wouldn't magically start loving her in SA4, he wouldn't be that support to her, she wanted, because people get tired of supporting people they don't love, especially when all they want from you is that mentioned support, and it's free of charge. It's a vampiric behaviour, nobody loves vampires (Bella Swan doesn't count). So what I see as a lesson is that she would feel even more lonely in SA4, because Adolin would be cold and probably fool around with Tarah unfaithful, and Kaladin would be avoiding her, and also probably would have a relationship with Jasnah Rysn Jasnah another woman. So it would be like she had them both and she lost them both with her stupid decision. And she would understand, that this time noone is actually going to help her, because noone cares about weak people. And she would have to gather her nuts in her fist, remember her Ideals and become better Shallan, than she was in WoR. The real Shallan we heard so much about and want to see her finally. I'm sorry, if I sound harsh, those are my feelings for Shallan, and not for you. I'm quite pissed with her after OB, so it's hard for me to stay calm, I don't mean to offend you in any way. Yeah, I agree, that it's closer to Adolin/Shallan totally, then to Kaladin/Shallan, but it's still much better, more believable, more genuine and so on. I read love from both sides of that romance, and the love is genuine from both sides, not that they both squeeze it out of themselves and pretend for it to be. Their relationship also had faced some obvious troubles, a lot of troubles and problems, and they had to overcome them. They even had some kind of fights and misunderstandings (a little, but still). Adolin and Shallan totally lack all of that from the very start. The first big problem they faced was "leering" at Kaladin and that almost ruined their marriage. The only reason they "overcame" this problem is that Shallan decided to glue to Adolin, and Adolin isn't determined enough and probably isn't proud enough to keep to his "decision". Again, I don't find Adolin and Shallan cute. I find it deeply troubling, intentionally cheesy and totally unconvincing. They were railroaded from the start to "the end", never faced any real problems, that they had to solve. Adolin's relationship issues magically vanished. Sadeas magically vanished. Multiple personas are ok, fine, no problem. Leering at another guy is "don't worry, I won't do that again". All the problems, they faced, were solved by Shallan alone. I count not only Kaladin issue here, but also creation of Radiant, when Adolin decided to teach her sword despite her lack of desire, and Helaran reveal, when Adolin totally missed her breakdown on hearing it. I see the relationship of two selfish people, that only want to solve their own problems by this marriage, or to avoid responsibility, or to avoid fear, or whatever else. I don't see it like "I love him and I want to be with him", and "I love her and I want to be with her" (which is totally different from what I read in Warbreaker). I see it as "I'm so weak, that I need him to support me, so I will fool myself, as I've already been doing for my entire life, that I love him, and I will convince him to marry me", and "I can't keep a girl on my own, so I will let someone else choose a girl for me, I don't actually love her, because the only person I've ever loved in my life is myself, but I will generously marry her, if she wants it so much and will be on top in bed".

Using this logic we can say that Adolin disgusts Shallan, because he expresses his disgust differently from other people and it looks like love in his case. Common psychology laws should remain the same in literature, and when the girl young man is theoretically in love with says "I want to marry you and rip your shirt off", when he was just about to lose her forever to another guy, he shouldn't reply "Are you sure? Are you really really sure? I mean, you have those other personas stuff and all... I don't know... Well, if you ask so..." He should say something about how happy and relieved he is. He should kiss her himself, not let her kiss him (for the second time already) and so on. All right, I can take that. I agree with a surface level attraction from Adolin. Well, her change in OB for Kaladin could be explained by pushing her feelings into Veil instead of Shallan, because of Helaran/Jasnah chastisement. Shallan as Shallan only thought about Kaladin once and it was not like "he is so dark and stormy", it was more like in WoR, I think, but whatever, I don't disagree with you here too, I just think (again) that there is a good explanation of it in Shallan's character. All right, I understand. Looks like we kinda see the same things in the text, but make the different conclusions out of them. I would totally agree with your "they just decided not to develop their feelings" statement, if it was real life and not literature. In literature any plot line should have some purpose. What purpose did Shalladin have in SA? How did it serve their character development or overall plot? What were chasms written for? Kaladin hurt his leg, Shallan learned that Shattered Plains were symmetrical. I pretty much believe it could have been done in less than 5 chapters. Kaladin's perception of lighteyes? I don't think Shallan had a big influence on it, but whatever, let it be. Let chasms sequence stay, but remove romance from there. Let them go through it like friends and that's it. And what purpose did their romance have in OB? To dissociate Shallan further? Even if we forget the fact, that Brandon said he tweaked the romance into different personas thing only after beta read, it still doesn't explain Kaladin's involvement in it. Let Shallan be in love with him, but leave poor Kaladin alone. It is a Checkov gun. It was loaded and readied, but never fired. That's why I am so convinced about the subversion (not the only reason though, I'll repeat). And the other fact is that, you say they decided not to interact, but that's not true. We know that they had at least three or even four dialogues that happened off screen - Thaylen flight, Kaladin's invitation into it, Shallan's talk to him about coming with him to Kholinar and possible flight to draw Urithiru. So the interactions were there, it's just Brandon who decided not to show them to us. So, for you OB reads like "Shallan and Kaladin started well in WoR, but decided not to continue in OB", and I read it like "Brandon has written the start of an amazing romance in WoR, but it was too early for it to manifest in OB, also Shallan has to make some mistakes, and Kaladin has to become a King so he put this on pause in order for it to come up later and finally serve the plot". Actually, my theory is that Shallan's marriage with Adolin is the same thing character development wise as Kaladin's decision to participate in Elhokar's assassination. A mistake she made to realize it later and fix it. And mistake is not "I picked the wrong guy", the mistake is "I picked a guy to support me, when I have to be my own support". Again, it's a short thesis, I could explain it with much more details, I just don't want to make this post too big. It already is... Oh, and please, PM me some of your top ten list, I would like to read it! I will, I've just discovered him recently, I am reading Mistborn already. But anyway, I still think, that I am reading this particular book. And I see an amazing chasm sequence there. I mean, I couldn't have written it myself. Shadolin - pfff, easily. I could've done better, than Shadolin, tbh (I'm not a writer, it's just how bad it looks in my opinion). So it seems to me in SA that i) Brandon can write a decent romance, ii) He pays enough attention to it. Again, in SA. Other books - no idea, only read Warbreaker. Romance was not stunning, but believable and nice. And much better, than Shadolin. Waaaay better.

I didn't say it was faked. I think it just was used against him. I'm not sure Lin was a member, he could just use members. And he has joined much later than Helaran. It was one of the plans. Plan A. Or B. They knew about Tien, why couldn't they send Helaran to test Kaladin? Sending her to bottom of the ocean is a test, like a carriage driver. It's not like "we need her serve us at all costs". It's like "let's see if she can get out of this mess". If she drowned it would just mean she is not worth the effort. That's why they don't recruit her, but make her think she is infiltrating them and investigating. And then they get her hooked with little tidbits of what she wants to know and that's it. Her brothers, Helaran, the Unmade and so on. I don't know why going to Jasnah Kholin is bad from Ghostbloods point of view. I don't also buy their explanation of her assassination. They are not kind of guys who would want a revenge, I think. They are rational. They make use of things.

Why do you think her abilities are unknown to them? I don't think Mraize could be unaware that Veil is Shallan from the start. He could just lie to make her feel flattered and lure her deeper with Helaran tidbit. As to recruiting her - perhaps they thought she would come to them on her own when she is ready and willing to. When someone thinks he came to you on his own and that he outplayed you it is much better, then when you asked him to join you. In the latter case you are in a weaker position. Warbreaker spoilers: Agent with the Soulcaster was sent to enter the Davar estate and to research the Unmade. Lin was in need of money, so Ghostbloods gave him what he wanted.

Thank you for this! This is very interesting. Covering Amaram's death with a battle loss is a good idea. And the whole Davar family economic situation could also be caused by the Ghostbloods through Helaran, he was in contact with Valam's bastard Redin, so he could organize that bad deal, that aggravated their financial state. So it could be that Helaran was recruited by Ghostbloods with the "display of great power and Shards", as you suggest. Then they manipulated him to constantly threat his father. Helaran's threats and Davar's family bankruptcy made Lin search for support outside, so Ghostbloods offered him their help too, and infiltrated their estate with more reliable agents - Luesh and the guards. Helaran has become unnecessary at this point and they decided to get rid of him and sent him to kill Amaram, hoping that Kaladin would kill him, but having plan B with Lin and his order to assassinate Helaran. And yeah, all of that was done to keep one eye on the Unmade, and the second eye on Shallan.

I didn’t only say that it’s missing from Adolin’s PoVs, I also said that in my opinion his other actions and behaviour pretty much contradict of how I think young infatuated man should look like. There are a lot of other examples of people in love even in SA, even two old ardents in the interlude look much more convincing to me, than Adolin. And yeah, I feel strongly about it, because I see Adolin thinking “Syl is pretty”, and I don’t see Adolin thinking “Shallan is pretty”. I see Adolin thinking about Janala, about Malasha, about Danlan, I don’t see him thinking about Shallan in OB. Yes, he was thinking about her in WoR, and I think he was infatuated with her in WoR, but he kind of chilled in OB. That’s good we agree at some point I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to offend you. I actually didn’t say that she only thinks about Adolin in a sexy way. She thinks the other things about him too, but what surprises me is that sexual context is much more present in her perception of Adolin, than in her perception of Kaladin, and still so many people say “she only thinks Kaladin is sexy, whereas with Adolin she has compassionate love”. I really just don’t understand how it is possible. Even her final tirade justifying her decision to marry him starts with his looks (handsome as sin) and finishes with sex (want to rip his shirt off). If we look at the overall dynamic of Shadolin vs Shalladin, we will also see the difference. She sees Adolin and the first thing she thinks is how handsome he is. But she has only started developing any kind of romantic feelings to Kaladin after she understood, what kind of person he is. I’ve only read Warbreaker so far, but I actually like how Shalladin is written. For me it is very decent and a kind of romance I appreciate a lot. I don’t think I’ve ever seen something like that in any other fantasy book. Th chasm sequence is one of the best romantic episodes I’ve read so far. Again, I could explain into it much deeper, but it’s not quite the topic. Yes, maybe Brandon writes cheesy romance, but to me it seems that Shadolin is written cheesy intentionally. This “without you I fade”… I didn’t say that lack of Shalladin scenes in OB points at their romance being special. Actually, it’s the chasm sequence that points to it. My argument was that if you as a writer initiate any plot line (romantic in this case), and want to finish it in a convincing way, then you don’t just drop it from the text with the two lines of thinking in the end, supported by “oh, I’ve just decided that I don’t love him” or something. Brandon has written chasm sequence, it lasted 5 chapters, it started a romantic plot line between Shallan and Kaladin and it seemed pretty storming convincing and good to me. So if Brandon wants to sell me the idea “Kaladin is bad for Shallan” than he probably has to write more than one little piece of misunderstanding in the next book to make me believe it. Otherwise, if he doesn’t want Shallan to end up with Kaladin - why start it in the first place? I understand, that I can’t express everything I think about the romance “resolve” in OB in this thread and perhaps in one post too. I have much more thoughts about it, than I wrote in my post. I could write a huge essay explaining why I am so certain there will be a subversion. Really huge. But this is not the topic and perhaps also not the community to do it. I just know that I will get overwhelmed by all the Shadolin supporters here, so I think we will just have to RAFO it. And regarding Brandon and his cheesy romances. SA is going to be his magnum opus. This fact makes me hope, that he will take the romances in it very seriously too. I just hope that Shalladin is meant to be his best romance ever

Oh, all right, I misunderstood you, excuse me! None of Adolin's love for Shallan is written in the books too. We have 0 (zero) occurences in his OB PoVs when he thinks Shallan is pretty, he loves her, he wants to be with her or whatever else. But it doesn't prevent people from thinking that Adolin loves Shallan. That's wonderful, I think. Judging Adolin's thoughts from Shallan's PoV is a strange thing to do as well. Noone can know what other person is thinking about. Shallan thinks Adolin thinks she is pretty, but in Adolin's PoVs we never actually see him thinking so. We never see him thinking that he is afraid of ruining this betrothal. He says it, yes, but, I think I'll never get tired of repeating it, what character says isn't the same what character thinks, you have to look at the wider context of the conversation. We see, how he behaves in their after TCB dialogue - he doesn't sound infatuated to me. He finds endless excuses not to marry, there are like 5 lines from his side expressing different kinds of objections against it, but he falls under Shallan's pressure, because he is overall this kind of guy - undetermined. Judging his feelings by Shallan's thoughts about his feelings is the same as (Warbreaker spoilers): Well, according to Shallan's dialogue with Radiant and Veil after TC battle, she was thinking about the chasms. But we all know, that Shallan has a bad habit of lying to herself and hiding from things. She confronted the truth about Helaran and it was gone in two lines of text and never go out again. Do you think it is really gone? I don't. I think it's just hidden somewhere inside Radiant's or Veil's conscious. Why can't they probably think about it, while Shallan is in her "Shallan" persona? Radiant said "we were dancing around a decision ever since those days we spent in chasms with Stormblessed" - but where is the dancing? I don't see it. Maybe it was off-screen in Radiant all along, but it was there, because Radiant was talking about it. Shallan is hard to understand, that's why this situation is so confusing. And I think it is intentional from Brandon's side to make it so confusing. If he clearly states, how much Shallan actually loves Kaladin, the following subversion of her horrible marriage won't be so surprising for the majority of readers Well, if you think "he is controlling his passion, he dominated his wrath, he is determined, and solemn, you can't change him whatever you do and whoever you are" equals "he is sexy", then what do you think about "oh that hair, oh that smile, oh that voice, oh those stupid arms, oh I want to rip his shirt off"? The first is "she just wants sex with him" and the second is "compassionate love"? You guys really blow my head with that kind of analysis I will repeat, I think it's all intentional from Brandon's side in order to make a subversion later. Why didn't he show Kaladin and Shallan flying to Thaylen City? Why is there a picture of Urithiru with Kaladin in it, and no story about how he flew her there to draw it? Why so many interactions between them are off screen? We only have 3 (three) dialogues between Shallan and Kaladin in OB, and one of them is when they both are in bad state of minds after their respective failures in Kholinar. Is it a coincidence? I don't think so. If they were really so bad for each other like so many people here say they are - why not write more of their interactions to make it more obvious? Not one dialogue, that went bad (only in the end, I would also notice, it started pretty well, actually) because of their mental states, but two, three, four dialogues, where everything falls apart, and the result looks more convincing? If Brandon really wanted to show Shadolin as something good, why does it look so cheesy then? Why is that "you are beautiful you are beautiful you are beautiful you are beautiful you are beautiful without you I fade"? Is it how he thinks a real compassionate love looks like? Why is Adolin trying to give her up even after her tirade oh how handsome and sexy he is and how much she wants him? Why doesn't Adolin ever think about her, but still thinks Syl is pretty (three times)? Why is that R-V-S dialogue in the end about "we are decided, but we could do better"? Why hasn't she burn a prayer? Why such a haste with marriage? Why, why, why? So many why's. And I didn't mention them all, as there are much more, actually. Storms, this Shalladin vs Shadolin is swallowing me up again.

I don't say Danlan is the only argument for the Diagram. It's just like a cherry on top of the pie, actually. The main reasons are in the post. And I also forgot to mention Helaran's and Davar's overall involvement with Jah Keved politics on the side of Valam, who ended up as King. I mentioned other Blade versions than the dead one just for the sake of considering all of the options. I think it was dead too.

You talk about it the way like the only thing Kaladin lacks is a willing woman, so anyone can offer him his daughter and there we go. He is one of the most eligible bachelors on Roshar, come on. Knight Radiant, Shardbearer, landowner, Blackthorn listens to him an trusts him, he is in command of a thousand men and so on. And just overall awesome. I don't think, finding a woman is the problem. I also don't think Kaladin will marry for political reasons. He values his freedom too highly to bond with a woman he has no feelings for. He is quite stubborn, and I think he will rather stay alone. Also, pure political marriage is boring plot-wise. How will it serve Kaladin character progression?