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Everything posted by Kon-Tiki

  1. I'd want to know way more about each of the KR orders before committing to making a Roshar-oriented system. We know the surges in theory but a lot of them not so much in practice, like tension or cohesion or transportation. And that doesn't even account for voidbinding, artifabrication, Old Magic, and whatever else is out there. Roshar would be a wacky RPG all on its own
  2. This thread makes me want a D&D party style arc (like the excursion to Kholinar) with Jasnah in it, though that's more unlikely than ever now that she's queen of the Alethi
  3. Granted, but its in the Alethi women's script. Good luck learning that. I'm moving right now. In fact, I should be packing. I wish for the whole moving process to be done with
  4. I don't disagree that what Shallan was doing at Theylan Field was probably straying into Resonance territory, but I have a hard time believing that the entirety of her illusory skill is a Resonance. I also hesitate to take anything that happened at Theylan Field as representative of what is normally possible. The Illumination surge has to do with the manipulation of light and sound (Pattern is specific that sound manipulation is part of the surge). I'm sure that Truthwatcher resonances probably have to do with what you're talking about, but the basic operation of the surges seem to be the same between Orders who share those surges, with the exception of the Bondsmiths, who are exceptional in a few other important ways. I'd guess that Renarin's inability to do what Shallan does either has to do with the number of Oaths he's sworn or the fact that Glys is corrupted. The surge, if he even still has access to it at all, may just work differently for him. But I expect that, as I said above, other Truthwatchers would be able to do at least the basics of what Shallan is capable of in terms of illusion.
  5. Urithiru, despite not actually being a spaceship, is kind of like a derelict spaceship. Still pressurized, still has some basic functions, you can still switch the lights on and off, but you can't really make it go until you turn on the onboard AI (the Sibiling)
  6. I looked up the definition of foil and got this: "a person or thing that contrasts with and so emphasizes and enhances the qualities of another" I don't think Moash has to be as simple as "Dark Kaladin" to qualify as a foil character. They come from somewhat similar (but certainly not the same) places. They both went through Bridge Four. They were both deeply wronged by many of the same people, both in ways that cost them people they loved. I don't think digging into the gritty details of those things disqualify Moash as being a foil. His choices post-Bridge Four contrast with Kaladin's, and so emphasize and enhance our understanding of Kaladin's post-Bridge Four character.
  7. I think "his opposeite" in Shadesmar is just what's left of him in Shadesmar. Like Windspren, I expect the Stormfather manifests most fully in the Physical Realm, not the Cognitive Realm. Kind of a reverse of only seeing the tongues of Anticipationspren in the Physical Realm or the drool of Angerspren
  8. Alright, yon Shardlings, maybe you can help me make sense of something that's been bothering me for years and particularly this past month or so since I re-read SLA last. You'll have to bear with me through what will certainly be a large wall of text as I present the facts as I see them, the conclusions I've drawn, and some tangential speculation (cause this is my thread dammit and I'll speculate if I want). If reading the Stormlight Archive has taught me anything about Brandon's writing, its that to find where the big secrets are you should look at what he writes around. Look at the elephant in the room. And here in the first half of the series I don't think there's a bigger elephant in the room than Gavilar and, by extension, the Sons of Honor. For a man who we spent two books fighting a war over (20% of the series) we know remarkably little about him. He was certainly a man of secrets. Of all the secret societies we're aware of on Roshar, the Sons of Honor are the most secret to us, the readers. Gavilar gets very little screen time and much of that is early in the timeline of OB flashbacks. So what do we know about Gavilar Kholin, beyond the blindingly obvious (king of Alethkar, Navani's first husband, was assassinated by Szeth, etc)? I see Gavilar's life as taking place in 3 acts. Very early on (probably sometime before the first Dalinar flashback), Gavilar graduated from tribal warlord to aspirant King. Something, possibly the birth of Jasnah, inspired Gavilar to look beyond his own generational aspirations toward founding an Alethkar that would maintain continuity for generations. He did not want to Alexander the Great his way through life, choosing instead to Wilhelm I of Germany and organize and consolidate power in Alethkar, ostensibly for the first time in generations. I'm not sure how I feel about going around conquering your neighbors in the simple name of unity but as far as pre-Industrial warlords go Gavilar seems fairly forward-thinking, even if some of his philosophizing about dynasty and stability is after-the-fact justification for actions taken earlier in life. After uniting the Alethi under the Kholin banner, Gavilar spends much of the rest of his life attempting to politic his way into legitimacy, both among the highprinces and internationally. From here on out Gavilar effectively abandons the battlefield, choosing instead to tactically deploy the Blackthorn to prove a point when simple words fail. Judging purely by results, he is not very good at this, though we only really have one result to go by. When Tanalan and the Rift go into rebellion, Gavilar stalls them purely with his own politics, then later by deploying Dalinar to the Vedan and Herdazian borders to prove a point, then by using Dalinar to smash the rebellion outright. Not very politic. But the attempt was made and Gavilar was at least able to divorce himself from his younger warlord persona by shoving that onto Dalinar while adopting the airs of a politician himself. Somewhere in this time is where the third act of Gavilar's life begins, however, and where things relating to Gavilar start to get a little hazy. We know at some point, almost certainly after the unification of Alethkar, that three things happen concerning Gavilar: he joins the Sons of Honor, he starts receiving the Bondsmith visions, and he starts reading The [In-Universe] Way of Kings (in case it becomes relevant, I will hereafter refer to the in-universe Way of Kings by full name and to the book on my desk as TWoK). We do not know the order of occurrences here. We also do not know how many of the visions Gavilar received or if he actually swore any Bondsmith oaths, unless there's some WoB I'm unaware of. However, given the quotes above and their contexts, as well as clues given to us about how Gavilar went "strange" later in life, I suspect that he must have joined the Sons of Honor before he started receiving his visions. The first quote implies some purpose found, and the Sons of Honor would supply that while newly received visions would probably provide more questions than clarity. As to the second quote, I believe the visions qualify as "revelations" to be shared. It is worth noting that Gavilar was a lot less cagey than Dalinar about his visions. Mr T tells us directly that he'd been told of Gavilar's visions. And Amaram's response to the leaked visions at the feast in WoR... you know what I'm just gonna quote it. Amaram speaks with the air of having read the vision in question, despite it being one of many released just prior to the conversation and not actually being able to read the women's script. I realize that he could have had it read to him, but he's still really quick off the cuff with his spicy take on "And now I am dead, Odium has killed me. I am sorry." Almost as if he'd already known and parsed what Tanavast had said. This, combined with the fact that he conveniently shows up in the warcamps shortly after Dalinar having fits during the highstorms becomes public knowledge, leads me to believe that he had knowledge of Gavilar's visions and their contents. If Amaram knew their contents, it is likely that the body of the Sons of Honor knew their contents as well. Indeed it is possible that Mr T had associations with these guys prior to visiting Cultivation/Nightwatcher and that's how he knows about it too, but this is baseless speculation. The one person who does not know anything about these visions who, it seems to me, definitely should have is Navani. Failing to confide in Jasnah is understandable, to a degree. But is Gavilar really spending every highstorm apart from Navani after this starts happening? Even if there's not something more sinister going on, this illuminates exactly how rough their marriage was by this point. And if, as I believe, Gavilar's visions started before sending Dalinar to Rathelas, then he was ditching Navani every highstorm for at least five years before his death. Not that there are that many visions, necessarily, but my point is more that this was not attached to some shortly pre-death strangeness associated with Gavilar. His and Navani's issues, whatever they were, were not new when he died. This entire paragraph presupposes that Navani is not concealing information about Gavilar from Dalinar, and indeed her mention of Gavilar's black spheres seem to indicate that she's being up front with Dalinar. At this point I will move off Gavilar directly and address the Sons of Honor more directly. As I said in the opening of this (already horrendously long) post, we know next to nothing about the Sons of Honor. Mraize tells Shallan that Gavilar was a "driving force" in the expansion of the Sons of Honor. We know that Amaram was recruited by Gavilar into the Sons of Honor. I believe that Gavilar intended to recruit Dalinar especially after he started distinguishing himself on the Alethi frontier, but it was impractical while Dalinar was on the front lines and Dalinar became extraordinarily unreliable after Rathelas. I further believe that Amaram's presence on the Shattered Plains was specifically to recruit Dalinar, especially since his fits in the highstorms became public knowledge. As to the Sons of Honor's relationship with the other secret societies, I believe both the Skybreakers and the Ghostbloods opposed the Sons of Honor's attempts to usher in a Desolation. Obviously the Skybreakers tried to kill Amaram, and Gavilar expected assassins from the Ghostbloods. Incidentally, I think this is what set Jasnah at odds with the Ghostbloods: the Ghostbloods were trying to prevent Gavilar from starting a Desolation, and Jasnah was counter-assassinating their assassins, making a target (and an enemy) of herself. I think in a way, the Diagram is kind of an offshoot of the Sons of Honor. Gavilar and Mr T were friends, and Gavilar made Mr T aware at some point of his visions, but Mr T ended up taking a different path than the the Sons of Honor. The only other confirmed member is Restares, who on the one hand Amaram writes to as a superior in his letter to him at the end of WoR, but on the other Gavilar fairly easily suspects as being behind his own assassination after Thaidakar is eliminated as a suspect. Beyond these two tidbits we really know nothing about Restares. I also believe that Aesudan was a member of the Sons of Honor. My evidence is shaky but not nonexistent. My first supporting piece is the fact that Gavilar desperately wanted to marry Jasnah off to Amaram, and I suspect he was following the same behavioral pattern that Jasnah shows in trying to get as many Knights Radiant tied into House Kholin as possible. Elhokar says that Jasnah opposed his marriage to Aesudan, but there appears to be no opposition to it from Gavilar's corner. The second supporting piece are Aesudan's own words (of which we have precious few): Not only is Aesudan clearly aware of what Gavilar was up to in his later days than us readers are, she's gone totally next level with it. If it is true that Gavilar was attempting to bond an Unmade, and bear in mind here that I take everything Aesudan tells us with a pinch of copper, then this to me is strong evidence that Gavilar never progressed beyond proto-Radiance. And this leads into the problem what's been bothering me all this time. Mraize tells us that the entire mission of the Sons of Honor was to ignite a Desolation. Gavilar's words to Eshonai on the night of his assassination corroborate this, only extending that Gavilar and the Sons of Honor knew exactly what they were about. And again, if Gavilar really was trying to bond an Unmade, then he really really knew what he was about. Here's the thing: I get not understanding what Tanavast's visions were trying to show. They're fairly arcane and for a long time Dalinar takes them in the context of the life he's living. Dalinar spends two whole books thinking that he's being charged to unite the Alethi against the Parshendi, when in reality the scope is so much larger. He's supposed to unite the world against the void. This is an understandable misunderstanding. Its a mistake of scale, not of intent. But how in Damnation does Gavilar talk himself into thinking these same visions mean that he should take an active hand in kickstarting the Desolation? For the purpose of bringing back the Heralds and strengthening the Vorin Church? This is a massive gamble based on layers of misunderstanding. Firstly, the visions themselves are incompatible with modern Vorinism, and not just the part about Honor being dead. Secondly, like Nale and Ishar, they seem to be putting the cart before the horse in terms of how a Desolation starts based on a wild misunderstanding of the Oathpact. Nale and Ishar seem to think that the return of the Knights Radiant are somehow causal to the Desolation instead of being responsive to it, and the Sons of Honor seem to think that they can shepherd in a Desolation and that the Heralds and Knights Radiant will return, rather than a Desolation starting as a result of a weakening or breaking of the Oathpact. But regardless of what they thought they knew, if your conclusion is "yes let's start a Desolation" it seems pretty apparent to me that your reasoning has strayed somewhere. So, am I missing something somewhere that we know already? From what information we've been presented so far in the text, Gavilar's motives make less than no sense to me. Causing an event known to cause 90% extinction and risking 100% extinction in the name of Alethi and Vorin unity is not the act of a sane group of people. In fact, if you take the phrase "voidbringer" at face value, that is, someone who brings the void, then Gavilar and the Sons of Honor are by definition Voidbringers. Sure, Amaram goes full Voidbringer at Theylan Field, but on the face of things as we have it he's been a voidbringer for the better part of a decade by the time Theylan Field rolls around. This is what he was working towards. And I can't for the life of me figure out why.
  9. Thank you for this
  10. So, we've seen Lightweaver and an Elsecaller both use Transformation, and its been the same. We've seen an Edgedancer and a Truthwatcher use Progression, and its been the same. We've seen a Skybreaker and a Windrunner use Gravitation, and its been the same. So far, the Surges seem to work differently from those they share them with only for Bondsmiths, and even then Dalinar can stick people to the floor or chairs to the wall (though I'd guess that he can't replicate Kaladin's trick with the air pressure). I don't know why normal Truthwatcher Illumination would be different from Lightweaver Illumination. Obviously Renarin is a special case, but I'd guess if we meet another Truthwatcher their Illumination will function much more similarly to Shallan's
  11. He said the Oath. He was glowing. He was Radiant.
  12. No I was incredibly vague, looking back on it. Though what I'm saying does involve the fact that what is presented to us is incredibly vague
  13. @Dalakaar Honestly at this point we should just copy-paste the entirety of what comes up when you search the words "odium" and "passion" in the Arcanum
  14. Well no that's not what I'm saying. I just think that there's iconography we don't understand. One appears to be associated with a Bondsmith, the other appears to be referring to a Bondsmith-level Spren. There's probably a reason for that
  15. @equinox @Lord Mist I don't necessarily think what yall are saying is incompatible. Ishar is the Bondsmith, after all
  16. RShara above references yet another WoB where Brandon says the Passions are not magical in origin, but do relate to Odium distantly. I don't want to drown the thread in WoBs but its pretty clear to me that Brandon's intent in naming Odium Odium is that the Shard represents Odium, not Passion
  17. Chapter 84. Its page 813 in my copy. Gavilar had been receiving visions for years and all evidence shows that he did not swear any Ideals. Dalinar had been receiving visions for months before he cornered the Stormfather and swore his first two Ideals. Sure, Dalinar had the advantages of 1) being able to see other Radiants and get their advice on how this all was supposed to work, and 2) the Everstorm had just come and he was able to see first hand what was going on in a way Gavilar never could have. Despite that, I feel fairly confident in saying that what Gavilar was doing was likely preventative in him advancing out of proto-Radiant-ness and into an actual Radiant. I think your remarks about him acting like a pop culture supervillain is exactly what I'm trying to say. Any good villain thinks they're doing the right thing, but it often comes with some level of self-deception. I just think unifying Alethkar under Vorinism and killing 90% of them are not really the same thing unless you squint real hard, and that appears to be what Gavilar did
  18. Another potentially relevant WoB, though this one is more mysterious than the others
  19. By these WoBs I think you're trusting what Odium says about himself maybe a little too much. Not only that, but Frost describes Odium in his response to The Letter: Odium the Shard is Odium. As to whether Rayse is trying to steer it towards being something more than that... maybe? Even when Odium showed Dalinar his true self in that first vision, the core of it was hatred.
  20. I'm not sure we can absolve Gavilar this way. Aesudan tells us he was trying to bond Unmade. Mraize tells us that he was actively attempting to start a Desolation, and while we can't necessarily trust Mraize's interpretation of an enemy organization's intentions, his interpretation is corroborated by Amaram's letter to Restares at the end of WoR. That's three distinct sources telling us that the Sons of Honor were trying to start a Desolation and one of them tells us Gavilar was on the same page. I made the flippant comment to @Invocation about 9 dimensional chess above, but I don't really believe that. The facts as I see them tell me that Gavilar, for whatever reason, was actively and knowingly on Team Void. I should have been more explicit about this I think. His motives for being on Team Void, as we have them so far, don't make a ton of sense to me. Aesudan, sure. She's a minor character who's characterized by her ambition, so her ending up with Yelig-nar and the other Unmade at Alethkar makes sense so far as we understand her character. Amaram, sure. Sadeas apparently has known his character for a long time and we all know what he did to Kaladin and how he dealt with it. We know what he was willing to do for a cause. He's a Destination Before Journey kind of a guy. Some people don't buy that he'd flip sides, but my contention is that the Sons of Honor has more or less always been on Team Void even if they didn't realize it. But Gavilar? We know that he was extremely devoutly Vorin -- Szeth characterizes him as maybe "too devout" -- but we've seen enough of the visions to know that what Gavilar was seeing does not match up with modern Vorinism's understanding of the past. It'd take some industrial grade self-deception to believe as Gavilar did and use the visions as justification for starting a Desolation to bring back the Heralds. And this, I guess, is the piece we're missing: why does he feel the need to engage in that kind of self-delusion? I imagine the reason is big, given how Brandon has tiptoed past it for three books now and likely will for at least one more. I think we'll get fully filled in on Gavilar in SLA5. Doesn't mean that this won't keep driving me crazy in the meantime
  21. So he played 9 dimensional chess against himself and lost?
  22. He brings it up twice over the course of the conversation, and after he does so Odium is forced to make a change to his plan at Theylan Field to steal the gem to avert disaster. This is to me probably the clearest evidence that the original Diagram is working for Dalinar
  23. Things the Diagram Has Done to Strengthen Dalinar's Position: Pushed Kaladin to swear his Third Ideal Put a very pliant Emperor on the Azish throne (why else kill two Azish Emperors in a row?) Removed Jah Keved as a rival neighbor (can you imagine how much harder it would have been to build Dalinar's coalition with a belligerent Jah Keved still in the way?) Created a Skybreaker willing to follow Dalinar instead of the will of Nale (it was only a rock) Giving Dalinar the idea to capture Nergaoul Helped persuade the Theylans to join the coalition with the Kharbranthian surgeons, which in turn helped bring in the Azish because Fen was willing to help I'm sure I could come up with more if I took more time. I'm also going to guess that Dalinar is going to receive a friendly tip about how Odium can't see the future where Renarin is concerned. At pretty much every relevant turn, The Diagram has been beneficial to Dalinar's progression into the leader of the coalition against Odium. So to answer your question, yes I believe that The Diagram foresaw Dalinar's Ascension. That said, I don't think current Mr T or the Diagram's members see anything they're doing in that light. Diagram Mr T, fueled by Cultivation, is playing modern Mr T and friends for a greater purpose than they realize. It's also worth attempting to summon @Calderis since Calderis is a Diagram junkie
  24. I'd guess its also more of a lighteyes thing. I'd kind of be surprised if Kaladin and Tarah never boned down