Emurii

Yes, Investiture follows conservation rules - it cannot be created or destroyed. You can expend it and lose access to it (like energy), but in this scenario Hoid did not expend Breath, so if it cannot be destroyed it must have been taken. If Odium could straight-up sap someone's Investiture, he would be a lot more OP than he has been shown to be, so taking an external object invested with Breath is the most plausible explanation of how Todd could take Hoid's Breath without harming him.

Yes, but Investiture is not physical matter. It can't be directly destroyed, and when it's co-opted, we see red show up. If Odium could just run around zapping out everyone's Investiture, this battle would be pretty easy. I googled again and there's a great thread here rehashing all of this. Tl:dr; most likely explanation is that the breaths were stored in a physical object (one of the coins? It felt like he didn't have both anymore) and that object was taken. https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/93219-hoidodium/

Someone just needs to ask Brandon how Odium is going around destroying breaths, because Investiture stemming from Endowment doesn't seem like it should be in Odium's power to straight up delete - I mean, in general I don't understand how a shard could just disinvest someone, unless it were their own power - because this is super confusing

Breaking/splintering a shard is a lot different from a shard incurring damage, though. It's like if you have a cracked versus shattered mirror, to use your analogy. (Additionally, we don't know that the power behind the shard is actually damaged, Rayse seems to have taken a lot of the damage as far as the clues we have go. Todd could be p powered.) The point of the rattle is that the "broken one" reigns, and as far as the big three on Roshar goes, that's Honor. As far as how Honor would reign while splintered, we know that we can combine entire shards a la Harmony, so I don't see why we wouldn't be able to reform Honor in some capacity - or at least reach some sort of critical mass there. A few WoBs have led me to a pet theory recently that Kal could take up the mantle of Honor, so I'm thinking about that possibility a lot - and I think "the broken one" could definitely be a reference to Kaladin as well, since he constantly refers to himself as being broken.

Agree, Leshwi is female regardless of body. I did think Brandon confirmed Kal as straight at some point, at least in his own understanding of the character (which is clearly flexible given WoB on ace Jasnah and now we have bi Shallan). I didn't think Odium controlled what bodies they got, maybe this is a blind spot in my Cosmere knowledge, though. Also lol at this idea - it's cute from a ship perspective but it dives into poly in a way that I don't really see Kal as engaging in, and I can't imagine Syl leaving her Nahel bond with Kal like that.

This is an interesting theory, and I can't think what the "suckling child" could be, but it can't be a child who is tricked or fooled, because by definition a suckling child is a child still young enough to nurse...which I think is pretty far off from anyone capable of giving consent to this sort of thing. I do wonder about the use of "breath" there, though. Just a theory, but could this have some nexus with one of our Nalthian characters? Storm rattle, I agree that this is Kaladin, and I think this has already come to pass during RoW. Three ruled, but now the broken one reigns. If this is indeed about Shards, I think the most obvious candidate for the "broken one" is Honor - neither Cultivation nor Odium is broken, but Honor is splintered. (It's a curious turn of phrase between rule and reign, though.) Ultimately, I do not think anything too soul destroying is going to happen at the end of Stormlight 5 for writerly reasons. Brandon wants people coming back for part 2, and it's going to be a few years, so it needs to be a good memory. He's also trying to sell to studios for adaptations. He also never leaves us in the lurch at the end of a book - how much less so at the end of a (part of a) series? (As I keep telling my husband who is only part way through RoW, "It's alright. The eels don't get her.")

I'm kind of enjoying Kal and Syl's close platonic friendship, and I think if they were headed in that direction we would have had more telegraphing, but if that's what happens I'm totally here for it.

I think I completely missed this, I checked back and you're right. Thanks for that, that makes me feel better, haha. We've been pretty clear that messing with the Nahel bond is physically painful, so I'm sure Hoid wouldn't miss this.

Anyone else shipping Kaladin x Leshwi? They clearly respect each other; they're somewhat evenly matched; unifying the Fused and the Radiants would be pretty baller; and it feels like there's some ~~tension~~ there... With Brando saying Kal will eventually find love in recent WoBs, it's hard to believe this will not happen by Book 5 (perhaps because I don't think Kaladin's character arc is going to remain in the fore for part 2)... It's gotta be someone we know?

So, the epilogue made me extremely anxious, and sort of soured what had been an amazing book experience (but in a good way, I guess, in an "oh great now there is this huge cliffhanger that won't resolve for two years" kind of way). I agree that Mr. T's only *intended* goal is to cut out their recent interaction, because I don't think T understands who and wait Hoid is yet, but right before the Breath is erased we are told that Hoid is terrified of this happening, because a /lot/ of his memories are stored in Breath. I'm not worried about him losing perfect pitch, he can get that back. But what did T delete along with the interaction? If you think about it like computer packages when you download or send a file, the data is all sort of hodgepodged into different packages (...is my understanding, pardon me if this is an incorrect analogy), and isn't necessarily related chronologically, etc. The fact that Hoid's spren is missing is supposed to clue us into the fact that something is /very/ wrong. So... I wouldn't get too comfy yet.

With regard to the Devotion/Dominion intent, I think the discussing between Raoden and Sarene where she apologizes for thinking he was a tyrant, he says "well I kind of am," and she forcefully asserts that he couldn't be a tyrant because the people love him is a pretty good frame for understanding the intent behind Dominion and Devotion as it comes to obeying/worshipping monarchs/deities. (Don't have the book on me but happy to look for this quote later if requested.)

Hahaha, omg, I wish I had noticed that re 16th post. The Cosmere's at it again.

I read Elantris after Mistborn 1 trilogy, so curious, I divided by 16. It's 42.

Yeah. I think we have a shot after Stormlight 4 - we know he doesn't like writing Stormlight back to back. So in the gap year, it seems like Rithmatist sequel, Skyward 3, and WW4 are the likely candidates. I don't see him going from outline to editing on all three of those in one year... Hopefully WW4 isn't the casualty. I also think it's highly unlikely that WW4 is put off until after Mistborn 3, because we need continuity with the characters who continue through.

Thanks Diamond, welcome to you too!

I forgot about that rule! Good point. So lifeless do have some "personhood" left that regular Awakened objects don't. Which I guess is why Kalad's Phantoms are bones encased in statue and not just statues.

Isn't "lifeless arm" vs "Awakened arm" a false dichotomy? If skele lifeless can be lifeless, we don't need a brain - so an Awakened arm seems like it could certainly be called a Lifeless arm, because we see it as human. Based on Clod, Identity is still a factor in Awakening - Clod was awakened (presumably? Do we know when he was awakened?) close enough to his death that his body still regarded itself as Clod, and not a corpse. But after a while, the Identity of the corpse becomes "a corpse." So, if what Awakening does is convince the object to adopt a new Identity, then I can see why it makes sense that a chimera and a Frankstein's monster are both a hodgepodge of stuff that is difficult to convince to be all one thing. But, Awakening also becomes easier when things are shaped like the caster (somewhere there's a WoB about how a dog race would have to make things dog-shaped to Awaken) - which means the Identity it's adopting is invariably your own, which is why you can ascribe your intent to the object. So, it would be a lot harder to make a chimera adopt your human-shape Identity than a Frankenstein's monster. (Unless you are a chimera, of course.)

My head canon casting tends to include a lot of animated characters as well as live action, so for the characters I've already cast in my head as live action actors: Denth - Jerome Flynn Tonk Fah - Andre the Giant I picture Scoot as Henry VIII, but he's probably unavailable.

Granted, but the release gets pushed back several times and by the time it comes out you have an even better shard idea. I wish for the ability to find any book quote or WoB without much effort.

I think Kelsier is just always looking for his next adventure, and isn't ready to quit yet. (Ironically, this strikes me as a very Hoid-like personality trait.)

He's on a clock of a few years to finish SA4&5, because Moshe's retiring soon and wants him to finish the front half of SA before he goes. So we should be pretty solid with SA being on time, at least.

So glad this got necro'd, I knew this existed but not how to find it. Re "what you lost," I wonder if this is related to the saving the city plot referenced in the first chapter of Liar of Partinel? I want to be sentimental and think "what you lost" is about a person (Brandon's confirmed that Hoid has had love interests), but I think it would have been phrased differently if it were a person. (Unless it's meant to be very, very ambiguous... Which I'm sure it is... Gah!) I imagine this loss is a side-effect of the shattering, or something that happened around that time. Hoid did not seem to actively try to prevent the shattering, since he seems friendly with some of the vessels and he was offered a chance at vessel-hood.

Thanks Invocation! Welcome to you as well, Peleki! And haha, this particular friend hasn't gone as deep as we ended up going But the mutual friend who got HER into it is a full on Sharder.

Do atium and lerasium even exist at this point, since Brandon has confirmed that if Sazed dropped his shard, it would drop as Harmony, not Ruin and Preservation? So theoretically, they shouldn't have separate bodies/powers any longer? (Much like the WoB on the Dor being all one substance, not a mix of small particles of Dominion and Devotion?) I guess we'll learn more in The Lost Metal.

After centuries of being Mistborn, one would think TLR would have spent the relatively little time necessary to attain savant-hood in every metal. If Spook can up his powers to the level he did in a year or two, how much more so TLR in a thousand years (especially given his Sliver status)? I imagine nicrosil would not have been useful enough to him to balance the risk of introducing that into the Empire.