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Posts posted by Oltux72

  1. 21 hours ago, Karger said:

    Regardless of their ethical viewpoint I do not see anyone let along someone as conniving as Gavilar let an unmade loose without good reason. 

    Yes, but for the right price he would do just that.

    21 hours ago, Karger said:

    We don't know/have reason to believe that Gavilar was working for Odium.

    Gavilar is not working for anybody. He had allies and partners.

    20 hours ago, Bliev said:

    Don’t we have a WOB that states that gavilar was on the same bondsmith path as Dalinar? That would definitely set aside the idea that he was working for Odium, though I’ve considered the idea of a potential unmade influence.

    Well, there seems to be a tendency to view a Bondsmith as a sort of saintly figure and to see anything that is not as pure as Albert Schweitzer, Henri Dunant of Florence Nightingale as an Unmade at work. A vassal or a slave are also bound. There is nothing in the mission statements of the Bondsmiths that would strictly require the bonds to be between equals or them to be based on liberty or honesty.


  2. 17 hours ago, Gilphon said:

    On the contrary, it jives really well- Gavilar nabbed a Fused off of Briaze shortly before the Desolation started, so Leshwi didn't have a chance to notice that person was missing. But Raboniel realized it happened, and that's why she's so confident that this will be the final Desolation. Although Raboniel doesn't realize that they only human who knows how that was accomplished died without telling anyone about it. 

    How? Gavilar surely did not design and assemble his machinery himself by hand. He must have had technicians.


  3. 1 hour ago, Karger said:

    Why would he show off a collection of ordinary spren?

    As a control group

    2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

    We've seen Yelig-Nar (standing next Odium near the end of OB) and he's man-sized black smoke who can fit in a single smokestone and bonds a single person. So at least one Unmade can fit in a small gemstone. 

    Yelig-Nar went into that stone voluntarily. Concluding that a stone that can house him could also trap him is daring.


  4. 10 hours ago, Karger said:

    While I don't think we know the exact number duplicates existing implies that it is either not a single great spren like an unmade or the sibling.  The only other possibility is that each one is somehow unique(supported by Navani's description later) but that implies that Gavilar has managed to track down and capture a large number of these.

    The Unmade are too well accounted for that. There may be another level of "void god spren" between them and the Fused, but there is no evidence for that. Unless you are proposing that an Unmade has been splintered?

    10 hours ago, Karger said:

    No variation in size although great variety in color and brightness.  Whatever is in these things variation exists between them.

    Gavilar may also have caught some ordinary spren. In fact, if his expeditions to Braize involved some kind of trap he is likely to have tested it on ordinary spren first.

    10 hours ago, Karger said:

    ITS ALIVE!  I really don't see how Rlain could get this impression from something that was not at least sentient.

    Venli got impressions from the voidspren making her a Regal and those are subsentient.

    10 hours ago, Karger said:

    Whatever is in there is vary valuable, very dangerous or both.  Gavilar would not waste such a secure gemstone for something he could catch easily whenever he felt like it.  A counterargument might be he just needed to transport it over long distances but given "the box" is an interplanetary travel device I would think he could launch from wherever he needed to.

    Possibly the quality of the gem is needed for the intended use of whatever is trapped inside it, not for the storage of the content.



  5. 9 hours ago, RShara said:

    No, I'm saying that Ico transports humans often enough that he has a device to make water for them.

    In a box in the hold. It is not unknown, but it is rare. I may point out that long-range aircraft carry an emergency coffin. It costs him next to nothing to carry that thing.

    9 hours ago, RShara said:

    Caravans don't have to be only land-vehicles. They can involve land vehicles and ships, on the same route!

    Yes, but then the personnel will change. That is at a minimum, pack animals (lifeless ?) carry stuff through the void until the first port on the pseudo-oceans of the subastral. There the cargo will be transferred to ships. The caravaneers going through the void between worlds will never see the final destination. In fact they may not know where it even is. Possibly there are waystops where personnel changes in between the worlds and only passengers go the full way.

    So if the spren part were to vanish, the whole route would collapse.


  6. 22 hours ago, Karger said:

    Sure.  Except we know some worldhoppers travel with guns.  Meaning that cosmere aware Rosharans as well as rosharns that travel to say scadrail should know what a gun is and come back with the ability to make one.  Nalthis is even worse in some respects.  Imagine Nalthis's customs agency not knowing what a gun was.

    How old is good gun technology on Scadrial? About 50 years? Maybe just a function of insufficient time.


  7. 2 hours ago, Quantus said:

    Roshar has pretty advanced scientific Fabrial magic, but Im not actually sure their basic science understanding is all that strong.  They have a few basic Rules from the Heralds, but for the most part they dont understand them (they know to clean things, but not what germs are, etc).

    • optics: they have telescopic glasses
    • barometric height formula: ardents can tell how high Urithiru is based on ambient pressure
    • ecology: Shallan has a clear grasp of apex predators and their biology
    • metallurgy: steel
    • linguistics: they get how the Dawnchant was used
    • architecture
    • ceramics
    • map making
    1 hour ago, Karger said:

    Mistborn era one is really incredibly primitive.  Bronze age China had more innovation and was much better organized. 

    • abundant steel
    • factories
    • extensives canals
    • multistory buildings
    • quite advanced medicine (Sazed was a good surgeon)
    • limelights
    1 hour ago, Karger said:

    We don't actually know what wealthy people on Threnody live like or what technologies they use.  They do have steel but they can't do combustion engines for obvious reasons.

    A gas turbine or steam engine would work just fine provided you use an existing flame to light them.

    1 hour ago, Karger said:

      Roshar actually is quite primitive in many respects.  Most people are farmers

    Any place where that was not so before 1880? OK, Venice, but that is cheating.

    1 hour ago, Karger said:

    combined with fabrails that are only available to the wealthy who are actually not that impressive.  Of course magic messes with everything we do.  Using this internet definition.

    I would actually say Roshar.  Mistrust of surgery, the mysticism surrounding fabrail science, and the lack of centers of learning

    Kharbranth? The ardentia? Azish science?



  8. On 18.10.2020 at 4:39 PM, RShara said:

    We saw several offworlders in Oathbringer, including Riino from Elantris, Vivenna (who even says she took a caravan, I think?). Plus the mist like spren, that are sapient, but aren't Radiant spren. Ico transports them often enough that he has a device that condenses water for them.

    What, are you saying that some spren need water? That is quite unlikely. Ico wouldn't store his unused water device in a box in that case.

    On 18.10.2020 at 4:39 PM, RShara said:

    We also only saw a very small part of Shadesmar--one city and a couple of ships. It would make more sense for the trade routes and caravans (and humans) to begin/end near Cultivation's perpendicularity, since that's where most of the transitions would happen.

    The caravans cannot begin there. The perpendicularity is on land, hence inside an ocean in Shadesmar. You must go there by ship. And it really makes no sense to take pack animals for use in Shadesmar, whatever they be, into a montain environment on Roshar.



  9. 15 hours ago, Rainier said:

    Or, drawing the attention of Odium is what makes Taravangian the fool in the first place. Mraize isn't interested in getting caught up in the game of gods, and anyone who does get caught up can be no better than a fool.

    Taravangian is a king on Roshar. That is like being a passenger on a burning and flooding ship. You are now interested on handling small boats on the open ocean, regardless of your wisdom or wishes. Mraize has more options.

    15 hours ago, Rainier said:

    Yes, I'm with you here, although we can't know exactly what his reaction was to the end of the Manywar. What little we know of his comes mostly from the Warbreaker annotations, and there's precious little there. Although, think for a moment. Five scholars: Vasher, Shashara, Yesteel, Arsteel, and Denth. Shashara, Arsteel, and Denth were all killed by Vasher. Let me repeat: the only person who has ever killed one of the Five Scholars is Vasher, who has killed three of five. Based on the track record, I'd say Yesteel has more to fear from Vasher than the reverse,

    So he still goes to the place where Vasher resides and does nothing more? That is not really reasonable.

    15 hours ago, Rainier said:

    and we should instead wonder why Vasher has let Yesteel live this long. We've seen inside his head, so we know he's not bloodthirsty or hell-bent on revenge, but still. Three out of five is a damning track record.

    Thaidakar has access to at least some armed men. Vasher should find a well aimed arrow in his back or poison in his food.


  10. 14 hours ago, RShara said:

    There are actually routes and caravans between Roshar and Nalthis.


    But where do they end? We saw no offworlders in Oathbringer. Spren have an inherent economic advantage in Shadesmar. They do not need to eat or drink, yet they cannot go to other subastrals. Hence the caravans will end at a port, where Spren take over shipping. Or there is even an exchange point out there as far as Spren can go.

    We saw how trade to Scadrial quickly ended. If the Spren had been wiped out, trade would have ceased.


  11. 5 minutes ago, robardin said:

    Yes... Immortal... Like Vasher/Zahel is as a Returned?

    Even the period between Warbreaker and Stormlight Archive maz be a bit short.

    5 minutes ago, robardin said:

    (And by wondering why Vasher is still alive, do you mean, why hasn't Yesteel managed to kill him?)


    5 minutes ago, robardin said:

    And we have no idea how Yesteel operates. If he runs a ruthless organization that values loyalty to a cause over personal loyalties, he simply has to be the best person to lead the cause to stay on top - and being immortal has a big plus in that area.

    Apparently Thaidakar founded research into advanced fabrials and was able to give away a Soulcaster and even knew of the Aether world. That is just a bit advanced for Yesteel.


  12. 1 hour ago, robardin said:

    Oh right. The epigraph to Ch. 85 of WoR that shows a passage in the Diagram: But who is the wanderer, the wild piece, the one who makes no sense? I glimpse at his implications, and the world opens to me. I shy back. Impossible. Is it?

    And it's Adrotagia who then notes, "Could this refer to Mraize?" so she knows of Mraize as a worldhopper, if not the GBs in general.

    There is a problem. The Diagramm aims for racial survival. That is actually rational, but only under the premise that man lives only on Roshar (and maybe Ashyn and Braize)

    1 hour ago, robardin said:

    And the second part, is kind of my point in a thread wondering about what the Ghostbloods have has their stated "greater purpose", and if Thaidakar is a Cult Leader type who created and dictates that purpose for the group, or is simply the current capo di tutti capi who himself rose to that position (possibly from the ground up).

    The Ghostbloods have resources and a reputation that must have taken decades to build. Unless Thaidakar is immortal I cannot see how he founded them..

    1 hour ago, robardin said:

    I have to say that that also feels to me like reasons against the Thaidakar Is Kelsier theory. Unless he's changed a lot, while Kell would not be above killing people he considers "expendable others" in pursuit of a goal, he would never tolerate in-group murders. And having set himself up as a god at least twice, he would probably make himself known as The Crewleader to everyone in the crew, down to the new recruits. 

    But that also should apply to Yesteel. Given how the Five Scholars broke up, I have serious problems with Yesteel allowing internal murders. And I wonder why Vasher is still alive.



  13. 7 hours ago, robardin said:

    Well, we've seen Mraize dismiss "that fool who sits in Kharbranth and imagines himself a player" or something like that, no doubt referring to Taravangian;

    Well, Odium has not spoken to Mraize. And I don't think that was out of fear. Mraize has a somewhat exaggerated view of himself.

    7 hours ago, robardin said:

    what have we seen from the Diagrammers in mentioning the Ghostbloods?  I know the Diagram itself mentions them somehow (though I don't remember exactly where this is mentioned).

    An epigraph mentioning Mraize, probably mistaking a reference in the Diagramm aimed at Hoid. Hence the members themselves, not just the document itself, know about the Ghostbloods.

    7 hours ago, robardin said:

    I am not certain that the Diagram folks know much about the GBs and their motives at present, even if Transcendent Taravangian figured out or saw a lot about them, who knows what he actually wrote down about them. (I mean they know, the Diagram, but we as readers don't know what they know.)

    It is unclear whether they know their motivation. In fact, how sure are we that the Ghostbloods outside a narrow circle know their organisation's true goals?


  14. 7 minutes ago, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

    I dunno, how do you think a master Awakener with the ability to animate constructs could propel a ship? When a sock is a deadly weapon and pants are power armor I wouldn’t worry about transportation.


    7 minutes ago, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

    As for the perpendicularity? Same way he’d find anything else, he’d go looking for it until he found it.

    I have to point out that a whole continent is a very large place to search and Vasher is on a tight time budget. Each week costs him a Breath, which is irreplacable in Shadesmar.


  15. On 14.10.2020 at 8:02 PM, StormFather! said:

    I don’t think that the metals can replicate the Rhythms directly. I think it is like trying to replicate the Rhythm of Growth with the Rhythm of Pewter and Zinc. I think that you can’t make a mechanical fabrial exactly replicate a organic one.

    That would not work. There are too few metals to translate to the the kinds of Spren.


  16. 15 hours ago, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

    Depending on how soon after the Recreance he came, Vasher wouldn't have necessarily had to seen any truespren, let alone whole cities of them, unless he specifically went to the highspren.

    How did he cross the oceans of beads without spren? Even if he built his own ship, how did he propel it and how did he find the perpendicularity?


  17. 2 hours ago, Stark said:

    So yes, the fused are reborn endlessly, but the toll of all those deaths is not negligible.  And every fused that is lost to madness is irreplaceable.

    That is an open question. Can Odium make new Fused?

    21 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

    They kind of explained how each Desolation ended in the most recent Venli chapter. Basically, the Heralds could resume the Oathpact and stop new Fused from leaving Braize at any point by either dying or some sort of suicide(I think putting their Blades in that stone from the prelude is how they did it before they changed the Oathpact to only apply to Taln).

    And that is extremely confusing and even inconsistent. After Aharietiam Taln alone was enough. But by chance alone there must have been Desolations where one of the Heralds died pretty early. Why did they not notice that Fused stopped coming back?


  18. 48 minutes ago, Experience said:

    I'm pretty sure canonically all vowels are hard in Elantris. So A as in say, E as in green, I pronounced 'eye', O as in go, and U pronounced 'you'

    Aons like Ien, Kae, Kie, Nae & Mae make me doubt that extremely.

    Furthermore "u" is not found in Aons. That suggests that the language collapsed /u/ and /o/. All in all it looks like Aons need to be pronounced like they were Spanish or Italian.


  19. 1 hour ago, Quantus said:

    Fair enough.  My main point is that there is nothing magic or unique about Coal that is required for Steel production to develop on a planet beyond being a really convenient and energy-dense heat source.

    Well, no. It also provides the reductive agent. And it is stable enough mechanically to use in a furnace.

    1 hour ago, Quantus said:

      And even though the initial step of smelting Pig Iron from Ore still remained, the Bessemer process did significantly cut down the total energy requirement to get large steel quantities, which is why it was such a driving factor in the Second Industrial Revolution. 

    I think we're agreed on the general shape of things, and just see a different resource balance being struck on Scadrial.  I think that the supernaturally lush basin (that Harmony acknowledged he may have made too easy for them) is likely to provide conveniently enough fuel for their available Metal resources, between land and ocean sources.  Harmony crammed most of a hemisphere's worth of resources in easy reach of them, and their overall population is miniscule compared to its earth-era equivalent.     

    The can of worms does not stop there. If they are really using charcoal, why do they have coal tenders on their railways? They could save the costs of turning it into char coal and just use the wood directly.

    1 hour ago, Quantus said:



    As Im saying this, I wondering how much Scadrial might drift from Earth-standard in these specific instances.  For example, I would not be at all surprised to find that Ore deposits on Scadrial averages purer quality than the average deposits found on earth (which can vary widely);

    That is the next can of worms. At least banded iron formations result from the great oxygenation event in Earth's history, in turn triggered by photosynthetic bacteria. An artificial planet should not have those.



  20. 32 minutes ago, Quantus said:

    The the industrial process that gave us our big Steel revolution (the Bessemer Process) doesnt actually require coal or Charcoal for the primary fuel, it uses an oxidation reaction with the impurities itself to generate most of the heat; that was it's whole big breakthrough that let us start using it as a bulk building material.  "The Bessemer process allowed steel to be produced without fuel, using the impurities of the iron to create the necessary heat. This drastically reduced the costs of steel production."  And technologically speaking, Scadrial's metalurgy has always been a bit ahead of their other technological developments.  

    Well, yes and no. This is a bit awkward, because I have no idea of your background in chemistry and it needs to be understandable for other people. You may notice that for the Bessemer process, you need molten iron (well a molten alloy of iron and too much carbon). That is the natural result of smelting iron from ore.  So it is true that once you use up the coal you need to make the iron the Bessemer process will need no more coal. But you cannot avoid the initial investment needed to smelt the iron.

    The historic breakthrough of the Bessemer process is avoiding a conversion that lasts for hours and requires the requisite heat (and a lot of extremely hard work) to make steel. That used to take a lot of additional coal. But even the coal required to just make the iron is too much by far.

    Can you improve on that? Not really all that much. Chemistry requires a certain amount of energy (and extra carbon for alloying) to reduce iron oxide in the ore. We today are within a factor of 2 of that limit. At a level of technology comparable to Era 2 we were at about 10% efficiency. So no, this is unavoidable. You cannot run a civilization at the population densities Scadrial has on biofuels alone. Now, they may use them to run their cars. That is entirely possible. But those are a luxury good.


  21. 39 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

    How do you know there isn't some governing body in Silverlight that administers world hoppers

    There likely is. Research bodies usually have codes of conduct.

    39 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

    and is analogous to the British Empire, only operating in the shadows?

    Funding. How would such an operation fund itself? The Ghostbloods have found an answer, but not yet implemented it.

    39 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

    I am not saying there is, but on what basis do you say the Cosmere doesn't have some ruling body operating in the Cognitive realm as a nation?

    There is too much territory and too many choke points. On Earth we have extremely powerful states because we have no free habitable land left and extremely fast travel. Not so in the Cosmere. Sure Silverlight can impose rules. But if some scholars don't like it and found their own university what are they going to do? Deny them the prestige and resources of Silverlight of course, but that is persuasive only so far. Making war on an enemy you have to walk weeks to get to and would have trouble even finding is not realistic.