deeptheory

@Belzedar Oh man, I loved those comparisons at the end there. Oh storms, this actually builds even more into my growing hype that Cultivation and Honor have been chilling on Roshar (starting way back even before Odium came into the picture) and their intents are just... perfect for breeding strong/resilient beings. The stormfather seen as having cultivation investiture as well is exactly something that could be used to cultivate a planet in its entirety. It's potential to 'cull' things seems much more like a cultivation thing than an honor thing, honestly. How does the stormfather/highstorm even relate to Honor? Oh this changes things in my mind... what if.. so we know that cultivation seems to 'take' things (prune) in exchange for granting power/investiture/boons, so that she doesn't become 'thinned out'(I'll see if I can find the exact quotes). Now we also know that Honor was splintered by Odium, or at least that's what the story is so far, I wouldn't say we have complete knowledge on that. We also know that Honor and Cult were working together, splinters/investiture can be restored, and Dalinar has a nice booty. What if Cultivation 'pruned' Honor either as part of a plan or in a last ditch effort to 'save' him in an effort to eventually restore him. And this is where the stormfather/highstorm comes back, we think of it as a thing of Honor because that's what it calls itself, a mere shadow of a god. I'm thinking Cultivation somehow put Honor's power into the stormfather to eventually restore him.... But that's just a crackpot theory I've been stewing on.. I need to do a re-read.

I've only been here about a week but I've become a big fan of these posts you're putting out there. I myself want to figure this magic system out as well, and I'll be checking this and part 2 out.

@CalderisCan we think of it more like 'pressure', I like this more. They are being heavily pressured by a being far more powerful than they to act, but they still see it as acting on their own (even if there is some mental/cognitive dissidence). I think the the mistborn cases are more similar to 'control' because they have been altered by Hemalurgy in a direct, meaningful way. It could be the same in Stormlight but it isn't totally spelled out how the whole gemheart and spren interaction works. This is why I think of it more like being pressured, and losing oneself, rather than being straight up controlled. And to your edit, I just don't like the idea that being invested by a shard gives them access to your mind/body for control. Each system might have a way to do what I detailed below in their own magical systems (say hemalurgy for Scadrial) but I guess my point is that it won't ever (at least I don't want it to) be straight up mind-control, but rather a complex use of magical mechanics to 'pressure' beings into desired outcomes. To expand on my -THEORY- , we have the Parshendi, who when they aren't bonded to a spren are in dull form(correct?)... meaning they have an 'empty' gemheart, or at the very least it is a non-sentient spren? My theory goes on to be that when a spren enters a gemheart it 'pressures' the Parshendi body to change, and adapt to meet the needs of the spren inhabiting. At the same time, the spren entering somehow expands the Parshendi to have more cognitive function (even workform was 'smarter' than dullform, mateform... debatable). But this would only be with the 'regular' spren that I imagine are linked to cultivation... or something. Anyways, then we have their forms of power, which SO FAR only seem to be Odium/Void-spren. These spren offer up more powerful abilities/forms and thus exert a more powerful pressure on the Parshendi to adhere to the sprens intent/power. Given time the parshendi could theoretically adapt to these new forms of power and come into their own under their pressure but I would imagine the first time experiencing it would be overwhelming and intoxicating. This new experience would have the Parshendi drinking in and welcoming the experience (POWER!) and thus letting themselves be changed/pressured into new thoughts/forms. I am stretching a little bit to backup my dislike of the mind-control idea, but of course at some point extreme pressure isn't much different than direct control... it's just the mechanics behind it.

@Calderis I disagree that it was really 'mind control', or if it was, Odium was doing a good job of pretending to be Eshonai. I only think this mainly because when we see Eshonai in some of her reflective moments where she hears her internal self screaming to be let free, she acknowledges it and can't understand why she would feel that way. If I am recalling it correctly... So while I don't disagree that the void/everstorm-spren certainly give odium a better channel of influence over the listeners, I don't think he directly takes control of them. I think they are just so completely reshaped by the power of the new spren that their identity becomes lost/shrouded. Since we can see this in their 'original forms' with Mateform and how it can be difficult to think/be ones-self while using it, and how slave-form also removes the 'mind' essentially. Certainly could be wrong, but I think mind-control is too strong of a term.

Because when Venli swears the first ideal she isn't in Stormform which was supposed to be like a more powerful warform. She was in Envoyform which seemed to be a less powerful form of 'power' and really just changed her shape and ability to communicate/think. Each form has it's attributes and abilities, a form like Stormform doesn't 'need' logic and reason therefore the mind is a bit stunted while using it (we can see Eshonai fighting stormform internally but the surface Eshonai just dismisses it because she can't understand). However a form like envoyform would support reasoning/logic as well as more 'open ended goals'. So... if Venli was in stormform it's possible she wouldn't have been able to swear the ideals, but in Envoyform she is more like a human.

Yea, but basically the Parshendi are beings that were shaped to easily accept spren/investiture due to their gemhearts. Thus their entire being is tied to the forms/spren/investiture and is why they can take different forms. To me this has a lot of comparisons to Kandra, Inquisitors, and even Koloss. It's also interesting to note that most native beings to Roshar have gemhearts... Gemhearts that we still know very little about.

I'm 100% on the cultivation hype train at the moment. I've cemented in my head that her 'intent' is one of the most powerful ones as it is an intent that actively is seeking change/growth, towards betterment/perfection (to cultivate).

I don't think they get 'mind controlled' I think it is more like people/beings who hold shards. Their personality/identity is warped by the power they are holding. So when the listeners are holding forms of power, they are generally warped towards that powers intent/purpose/power. Since the listeners are so in tune to Roshar and the 'Rhythms'(whatever these relate to... my guess is cultivation somehow) it would make sense that they are vulnerable to being controlled by investiture, similar to some of the beings on Scadrial who have been altered by hemallurgy. And since the idea is that most of their 'new' forms of power are due to Odium and his power, then they get shaped by his will/intent, and why the 'new songs' seem to be more 'violent' or 'passionate'.

I disagree, I agree that Cultivation can't kill/destroy Odium because that is not in her 'nature/intent'. But I do think that she could certainly 'prune' odium and possibly splinter him in a dangerous way. Honestly I have some theories that due to cultivations nature/intent and the timeline since the shattering that Cultivation has to have some serious power/investiture stored up in Roshar. Possibly in a way that the other shards aren't quite familiar with... since Cultivation... cultivates things. One of the very few (perhaps only) shards that have the intent of growth/nurturing in their namesake. Preservation preserves.... Devotion devotes.... Ambition -wants- more, but isn't about building/growing things, more about taking them... The whole 'intent' and 'nature' of the shards is something that is still being fleshed out from what I can tell.

Stormit no, but maybe if that cookie had some jalapenos on it?

Maybe if you got some chouta I'd take it. Or a good stew.

I want Elsecallers to somehow be able to easily worldhop at their highest stages. Keyword : Want

Oh boy... Favorites... My favorite magic system (so far...) is Stormlight for sure. There is still a lot to be discovered but it seems like there is also a ton that is actively changing in the cosmere in that neck of the woods. We've hardly even touched on Cultivation and Odium's manifestation of powers/investiture. Character? I currently really like TenSoon, but then again that's probably because of where he's at in his arc. I rooted for Kaladin all the way through Stormlight, easily one of my top favorites of any series so far. It's a tough call between Vin and Kal for favorite position.

Hello! I'm a 30something guy who started the cosmere at the beginning of last year with tWoK. I'm now current in SA, and on HoA in Era1 Mistborn. I've also read Elantris! I'm trucking through Sanderson books like a pig in, you know. Anyways, I'm happy to finally jumped into these forums after having what I consider to be a 'amateur' level knowledge of the cosmere. Excited to see what ERA 2 brings and then all the standalones after that. Sanderson is a universe building madman.

Wasn't Ba-Ado-Mishram there too? I recall her speaking with Shallan at one point, or was that Ashtermarn... I thought it was Ba-Ado and she was explaining the trap and how she corrupted to the oathgate spren? It's possible that Ba-Ado was 'ordering' the other unmade as part of her duties as the 'general'. Now I gotta research. Apparently it was Sja-Anat as she is the one who corrupts spren. But same idea, she has a hyphen, and thus possibly more sentient or powerful and managing the actions of Ashertmarn, or Odium himself had a hand? Not so strong on this whole idea though. I liked another theory that the unmade represent the times that a Herald broke during an oathpact, or are actually Odiums ("version") of heralds.