mdross81

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  1. There's still a lot we don't know about just how Honor came to kick the bucket. We know roughly when he died (shortly after the False Desolation, the imprisonment of BAM, and the Recreance, although Shard deaths are lenghty affairs). And we have some semblance of the state he was in leading up to his death: he was losing his mind; he was obsessed with oaths themselves more so than the meaning behind oaths; and he may have been changing in some unspecified way (per the Skybreaker who left a smokestone in the Urithiru gem archive). But what were the larger impacts? What changed and what didn't in the Rosharan system as a result of his death? I've tried to compile a list of both below. WHAT CHANGED 1. Removal of boundaries on the definition of Honor A couple of times in RoW, we're told that Honor once had a hand in defining the concept of honor, but that with him gone, humans and spren define honor for themselves. Syl in RoW 21: Blended in RoW 78: 2. Removal of Honor's limitations on the powers of Bondsmiths We also learn in RoW that after humans had destroyed Ashyn via Surgebinding, Honor placed limits on the powers of Bondsmiths. But with Honor gone, those limitations appear to be gone as well. RoW 66 (the SF discussing Dalinar's ability to see lines of Connection): This quote is also interesting in that it gives us a little insight into the timing of when the Stormfather began to "fully live." I had once thought it might have been earlier than this given what we learned in OB about Honor transferring responsibility for making honorspren to the Stormfather. But as late as the time of Melishi (and Melishi when Honor was dying, no less) the Stormfather still was not fully alive. I guess he didn't fully live until he absorbed Honor's cognitive shadow? RoW 111: Later in the same chapter: 3. Removal of checks on the powers of Knights Radiant more generally While the SF mainly spoke of Honor placing limits on the powers of Bondsmiths, several other characters - none of them completely reliable - suggest that with Honor dead, any Radiant bonds (not just Bondsmiths) are potentially dangerous. (I think this may actually be related to number 1 above. As I explain in the conclusion at the end of the post, if humans and spren could define for themselves the meaning of their oaths and what was honorable, then the oath-based system to control the powers granted by the spren starts to fall apart). Here's Nale in OB 106: How would Radiants upset the balance of the Oathpact? What measures is he talking about? There's either something really juicy here or he's just full of crem (which is totally possible considering this comes from Ishar). Now, here's Notum in OB 108: But again, the honorspren don't seem to have a great understanding of what went down with the Recreance and Honor's death. So who knows how accurate this is. 4. Changes to the Stormfather As mentioned above, it seems that one of the immediate effects of Honor's death was the Stormfather taking up Honor's remnants, merging with his Cognitive Shadow, and coming fully alive. Here's the SF in WoR 82 the first time he really talks to Dalinar: Here's the SF discussing the vision of Aharietiam in OB 38: Here's R-Odium noting that Dalinar is connected to the remnants of a god in OB 57: Later in the same chapter, R-Odium phrases it a little differently: Here's Notum in RoW 30 explaining what some honorspren say about how Honor's death changed the Stormfather: But again, modern honorspren often don't know what they're talking about. I'm leaving out some other instances where Dalinar refers to the SF as a remnant of the Almighty becuase he's just repeating what the SF said. But for good measure, here's a WoB that sheds a little bit of light on how taking up Honor's Cognitive Shadow changed the SF: 5. Odium was wounded Two things to consider here. The first is this WoB, indicating that Honor went out swinging: The other is one of the things T-Odium realizes shortly after Ascending in RoW 114: 6. Urithiru ceased functioning because the Sibling couldn't hear Honor's tone Although it seems that the imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram was what initially caused the Sibling to lose the ability to hear the pure tones, Honor's madness and subsequent death rendered him unable to help them to find his tone again. From RoW 49: This change was not permanent, however, as Navani was able to sing the tone and help restore functionality to the tower. WHAT DIDN'T CHANGE 1. Odium remains trapped in the Rosharan system This one isn't explicitly laid out, but we know that the powers of Honor and Cultivation sealed Odium in the system (OB 38). And Rayse had a long-game that hinged on getting Dalinar, as the representative of Honor, to release him - so Honor's powers must still be involved in some way with continuing to seal Odium. Or, at the very least, someone holding the remnants of Honor's powers can agree to release Odium. (I'm assuming here that Odium was chained to the system prior to Honor's death; if it turns out that it was something about Honor's death that caused Odium to be chained, then this would obviously belong above with the list of things that did change). 2. The power of Honor still binds things together Raboniel points this out in RoW 31 when talking to Venli about the Surges and why the singers worship Odium rather than Honor or Cultivation: Surges gonna Surge. 3. Honor's power still fuels the Radiants This one is kinda obvious, but I mention it because, on two seperate occasions, two different Heavenly Ones express what seems to be some surprise at this. Here's Rine talking to Venli in OB Interlude 7: Note how he suggests that Honor still has has some active role in the fighting - "he fights on." The other notable thing here is him saying "We killed him." As far as we know, there had not been any Fused around for several millennia at the time of the False Desolation/Recreance when Honor was ultimately killed. Perhaps he just means "our forces" when he says "we." (This also reminds me of the other, more well-known line, "No, we killed you. WE KILLED YOU!" But I don't think there's necessarily any connection) And here's Leshwi in RoW 53, remarking on how Kaladin continues to fight: Note how, as with Rine, above, she suggests that Honor has some active role in powering Radiants. 4. Speculative - Nale thinks Honor's power should still be able to prevent Dalinar's bond As noted, this one is speculative (and I know we're not supposed to trust the Heralds), but I wanted to include it because Nale seems pretty certain that notwithstanding Honor's death, Honor ought to prevent what he views as a non-righteous bond. From RoW 47: 5. Honor still lives in the hearts of his children I don't think a discussion of the impacts of Honor's death would be complete without a mention of how Honor supposedly still lives on in the hearts of his children. Here's a sampling of places where this idea crops up: Syl: “He is [dead],” Syl said. “But he lives on in men. And in me.” (WoR 41) Syl again: "You called for me. Or, no, I knew that you would someday call for me. So I transferred to the Physical Realm, trusting that the honor of men lived, unlike what my father always said.” (OB 91) Godeke the Edgedancer, and former ardent, with a revisionist view on Vorinism: "Remember though, the church taught that we are all aspects of the Almighty – that He lives in us. As He lived in the being called Honor, who was tasked with protecting men." (RoW 22) Notum: "Honor is not dead so long as he lives in the hearts of men!" (RoW 87) Navani: “Honor is not …dead. He lives inside the hearts … of his children…” (RoW 110) Unnamed cultivationspren from the Celebrant dock registrar's office suggesting that there were some spren who expected that honor would return to men: “Oh, glorious day. Glorious! We have waited so long for the honor of men to return!” (OB 102) Teft upon realizing that Kal had sucked in Stormlight: "Almighty, cast from heaven to dwell in our hearts ... It is true." (WoK 38) Conclusion So, those are the main things I came up with. I'm probably missing some, so feel free to chime in. As I look over the things that changed, the biggest impact is probably the removal of Honor's limitations on Surgebinding powers. I've come to suspect that the reason Honor ranted about how the Radiants would destroy Roshar like they did Ashyn, was because he knew he was dying and that the limitations he had placed on Surgebinding powers would fall away when he died. The removal of the limitations on the definition of honor may have been a big deal too becuase it would potentially upend the oath-based system put in place to control the powers granted by the spren if the spren and humans can define honor as they saw fit. (Indeed, I think that may have been the crux of the dispute between the Windrunners and the Skybreakers) Looking at it this way, I begin to see the Recreance in a new light. When you consider that: Honor had placed limits on Surgebinding powers and only planned to grant the Heralds Surgebinding abilities; the spren surprised Honor and granted Surgebinding to a much larger number of people; the Heralds had abandoned the Oathpact and their roles as leaders of the KR; with Honor's death the limtiations he had placed on the Surges would fall away; and the protections of oaths on the Surgebinding powers of Radiants could fall away because humans and spren could define oaths and honor for themselves; and unbound Surgebinding has the potential to destroy the world then I guess the Recreance starts to make a little bit more sense.
  2. Good point about the honorspren not being reliable sources. And even with them saying that the Sibling ended their bond, Melishi may still have been a part of it. It may have been a mutual thing, in which case it could still be accurate to say that the order of Bondsmiths abandoned its oaths. You're also right that the Sibling seems to know more than they've told us so far. Here they are speaking with Navani in RoW 40: Right there at the end it seems like the Sibling knows at least part of the story of the Recreance. (Side note: Could hemalurgy somehow be used to trap a bonded Radiant spren in a fabrial? I wonder if that's what Brandon is hinting at in the WoB you referenced above, when he says "you would need something else to force them to be unable to break the bond, which would be even more evil, but it is possible in Hemalurgy"). But then the Sibling is not the most reliable source either. Take this passage earlier in the same chapter: On the one hand, the Sibling says that they really were asleep until they felt a Bondsmith and awakened, which seems to suggest an involuntary slumber. But on the other the Sibling admits that their slumber was a ruse intended to make people think they were dead. Yeah, there's definitely some big piece of the puzzle that we're still missing with the Recreance. I've come to suspect that Honor knew he was dying, and that was why he ranted about the dangers of Surgebinding. He knew that upon his death the limits he had imposed on the powers would be lifted. Why that caused the Radiants and the spren to decide that a coordinated abandonment of oaths was the right move, however, I don't know.
  3. During Adolin's trial, the honorspren mention that the Sibling ended the bond prior to the Recreance. From RoW 87: I hadn't really noticed the part about a "matter of dispute" before, though. I wonder what exactly the differing sides of that dispute think about how the Sibling knew to end the bond?
  4. theory

    This theory has really gotten into my head and I'm liking it more and more. I was re-reading the scenes where Kaladin and Dalinar ask the Stormfather to have mercy and spare people. And it's telling that, each time, the Stormfather replies by asking about all of the other times when people have been or will be caught in the storms. He's thinking about the precedent. Because if he spares one forager who waited too long to seek safety, but then later doesn't save another person in the exact same situation, how can he be said to be acting honorably? And to act dishonorably is antithetical to his very identity. I think it's possible that, in the Stormfather's view, the only options available are to spare no one, or to spare everyone. But the only way to spare everyone is to cease being a storm altogether. As a side note, I think that when Honor still lived, things might have been different. Note this brief exchange between Dalinar and the SF from OB 115: Dalinar is surprised that Odium's forces were able to sail during the storm, but the SF explains that Odium is able to control the Everstorm so that it propels, but doesn't harm, his fleet of ships. The SF compares this to how Honor once used him, which maybe suggests that while Honor lived, he was able to exercise some level of selective control over the fury of the highstorms.
  5. theory

    It's just before the Everstorm is pulled through. At the very end of 81, the Stormfather says he's sorry that Dalinar has to die this way. Dalinar initially thinks it's the Almighty. They have a conversation in snippets through the changing POVs in 82 and 83. It's really the first time they speak. So it's the Stormfather introducing himself and then saying that things are hopeless and that the most he can do is bring a storm of cleansing to wash away their bodies.
  6. theory

    Interesting theory, and great analysis as always @LewsTherinTelescope Based on the same Dalinar and Kaladin scenes you mention, it's basically my head canon now that the Stormfather has been deliberately non-interventionist when it comes to the appeals to avoid or lessen the destruction wrought by his bringing the highstorms. He outright says that taking action to save Kaladin might break things Dalinar doesn't understand, and that the consequences could be catastrophic. Your theory as to what those consequences might be - him ceasing to be a storm - is a pretty sensible one and is well-foreshadowed. As for the consequences if he did cease being a storm, in addition to the importance of the highstorms to the ecology of Roshar, I also remembered this other line about the storms' role, from WoR 82: Maybe the Stormfather is just being a bit poetic and egotistical, but maybe there's something to the idea that men must feel the winds. What would happen if they no longer did? One other quote that might fit somewhere is this one from WoR 83. Like the quote above, this is in response to Dalinar asking who the Stormfather is: He claims to bring both. I wonder whether part of the consequences the Stormfather mentions to Dalinar could be him losing the ability to continue bringing the Light?
  7. Yeah. One thing I've learned from my discussions about the contest and loopholes is that a whole lotta people (myself included probably) are going to be disappointed if the contest doesn't actually take place. I mean Dalinar has been working at forcing Odium into a contest of champions since the Tanavast vision at the end of WoK. So any trick or loophole that Todium might eventually pull off has to factor in the contest taking place.
  8. While I agree that we may have all gone too far down the rabbit hole of loopholes and tricks, I'm not sure that I agree that Todium would be happy with just straight winning the contest. If he really has designs on the greater cosmere he's not going to be happy with a result that leaves him chained to the Rosharan system.
  9. You’re right it would be a huge letdown if contract law decided the outcome. I would very much hope that such a ploy by Todium would not succeed. Just seems like the kind of thing he would try.
  10. I know there's a contingent on the forums who think that Todium will choose a child-champion and that this will cause Dalinar to either break the contract or lose the contest of champions by refusing to fight/kill the child. But let's set that aside for a minute, and consider what I think is a simpler and more likely way that Todium might manipulate events so that Dalinar breaks the contract. First, here are the three key contractual terms with which the parties must comply: On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour, each side must send a willing champion The champions must be allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side's forces The champions participate in a contest to the death These are the terms that, if violated, would constitute a breach of contract. Now, if you're Todium looking for a way to maneuver Dalinar into breaking the contract, which of these would you try to exploit? Number 1 doesn't seem likely. It's pretty hard to see how Todium could arrange things so that Dalinar either doesn't show up to be his own champion or fails to send an appointed champion. To maneuver Dalinar into violating number 3, Todium would have to find a way to ensure that either Dalinar's champion doesn't participate in the contest at all, or that his champion quits the contest before one champion dies. Again, I struggle to see how Todium can arrange things in a way where he can be sure that Dalinar's champion will violate this provision. (Please let's not go down the child champion rabbit hole; there are enough other threads where folks have been through those arguments ad nauseam) That leaves number 2, which I think has the most wiggle room and the most factors that Todium might be able to control. The reason for this is that the terms forbid either side's forces from harming either champion. Dalinar would violate this provision if someone from his forces harmed Todium's champ. But it would also be a violation if someone from his forces harmed Dalinar (or his champion, if he changes his mind about being his own champ). So Todium can plot on two fronts - manipulating someone into harming Dalinar (or his champ) and also manipulating someone into harming his own champ. If he's successful with either, that's a violation of the contract. For Dalinar, I imagine there are plenty of folks out there with a lingering grievance against him from his Blackthorn days. Or, perhaps there's a religious zealot who hates Dalinar for his blasphemy against the Vorin church. I'm sure there are other options as well, but suffice it to say that I imagine there are a significant number of folks out there who might, given the opportunity, take a shot at Dalinar. For Todium's champ, who's the most hated person you can think of on his side, someone that a number of characters would probably like to harm? Storming Moash. Todium can make him his champion, then try to manipulate Gavinor, or someone from Bridge Four into taking him out. Again, there are probably lots of other folks out there that might want a piece of Moash. And if the scheme doesn't work, with Moash now blind, there's still the possibility that Dalinar's champion may think that it's not a fair or honorable fight. Alternatively, depending on how his story plays out in Book 5, Szeth might be another option for a Todium champ that lots of folks would probably like vengeance against. Actually, Szeth is also a prime candidate for someone that Todium might try to manipulate into harming one of the champs. Manipulating Szeth is, after all, T's go-to move. There are two main problems I can think of with this theory. One is that I may just be reading the language of the agreement too technically. Dalinar says "otherwise unharmed by either side's forces" but it could be that what he meant - and what Odium understood him to mean - was "unharmed by the other side's forces." But the terms of the contest of champions seem like the type of thing where Brandon would be very intentional in his word choice. And reading the terms the way I suggest fits with Todium's realization of the subtle opportunities available to him. Another problem with this theory is that I'm not entirely certain who is considered to be part of Dalinar's forces. Further, would a person be considered to have defected if they moved against Dalinar's champ or harmed Todium's champion against Dalinar's will? I don't think these issues kill the theory; they're more things that would have to be addressed and sorted out. In conclusion, this seems to me like a much more straightforward route to arranging things so that Dalinar's forces cause him to break the contract. What do y'all think?
  11. This seems like the correct order to me. And you have an interesting idea about the concurrent issue of Honor himself changing. I have an alternate explanation about the changes in Honor. I think that the False Desolation laid bare (to the extent that it was not already known/suspected) to the Knights Radiant the fact that the Heralds had lied at Aharietiam. I think that the Heralds walking away from the Oathpact must have had some initial impact on Honor, but that it was limited because those who knew (the Shin at least) kept the Heralds’ secret. But when Voidspren and Regals show up again, empowered by the Unmade, it’s impossible to maintain the lie. I mean Nale and Kalak show up in person for the imprisonment of BAM, and I’ll be shocked if Melishi wasn’t at least acting on Ishar’s behalf. We know perceptions matter and can have a big impact on Roshar. So I think the changing perception of the Heralds may have been partly responsible for the changes in Honor.
  12. I'm not certain exactly who I think it will be. My best guess, if we are to take at face value Rayse's claim during the negotiation of terms that he already knew who his champion would be, would be a Fused (maybe El?) And I think that has interesting ramifications for a contest to the death because there's thorny issues surrounding what constitutes death for Fused, and because it would potentially involve a need to figure out how to make more anti-Light which I think is going to be a big deal. Other than that, I could see Nale as an option because to me he exemplifies the ways in which Honor, taken to the extreme, can go wrong. I've seen some interesting arguments for Gavilar as well, although I don't think the groundwork has been laid properly for that.
  13. For those that are such strong believers in the child champion theory, can you explain how it plays out in any kind of satisfying or fulfilling way? I understand that there's some support in the books for why it could possibly happen. But what I still haven't seen is any kind of explanation of how it would be good storytelling. And I think there have been a lot of explanations of why it wouldn't be.
  14. I don’t think so. I think anyone who becomes a willing champion for the contest is effectively removed from the protections of the Kharbranth deal.
  15. I think this is the one you’re looking for: