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284 Silent Gatherer

About Isilel

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  1. Concerning Odium's power, I am not sure if Hoid would want connection to him at this time. But he can convince Sja-Anath to corrupt his Cryptic in a pinch, I guess? Thus getting access to powers of all 3 Shards in Rosharan system through one tidy Nahel bond package. Odium doesn't need Nightblood to quash Hoid like a bug, BTW. Didn't Hoid tell as much to somebody in SA at some point? Maybe Dalinar?
  2. Personally, I hope that some of the existing Heralds are going to redeem themselves by returning to Braize for the break between the 2 pentologies and buying Rosharans time to come up with a different solution. They are going to be hunted down one by one and instead of capture & torture killed once and for all with respective Raysium daggers. When the last of them is gone, the second series will start. Taln and Ash will remain on Roshar for reasons and keep the leadership informed about the attrition among their fellows. Jezrien's death demonstrated that a new Oathpact, no matter how carefully constructed, can no longer provide anything more than a short-term relief, because human participants can be simply eliminated. Regarding the working title of SA, the "Oathshards" would have most likely been another term for the honorblades, IMHO, since Taln's original arc in proto-WoK revolved around locating them and piecing together the defection of his fellow Heralds.
  3. I wish there was an "alright" option in the poll. Kaladin is the most stereotypical "fantasy protagonist" of the PoVs, even though done well, and as such was a little boring to me. He hogged too much limelight in WoR, IMHO, and his "saving the day in the nick of time" schtick was a bit overdone there. I liked his story arc and page-count in OB more (even though his fight with Amaram was silly and fan-servicy, YMMV) and I would have preferred it if he didn't become more prominent again. He had his book and a big chunk of WoR - let the other characters get their time in the sun now. Alas, it is not to be...
  4. Wouldn't all the differences between the planets of Roshar and Earth throw the most sensitive technology off? Like, fuel and propellants catching fire and exploding much more easily on Roshar, friction at high speeds being more dangerous ditto, lower gravity and different size of the world would affect targeting, submerging mechanism of submarines, etc. Highstorms would make airfields and air carriers impractical. IMHO, just plopping earth military on Roshar without extensive prior study and significant adjustments would be a recipe for disaster. Portable firearms would be the only weapons to reliably work and soldiers would need to lug all their supplies themselves. Pretty sure that primitive firearms and cannon would be more dangerous to their users on Roshar than to their opponents, due to increased tendency to explode. I'd say that even a modern military would have a hard time on Roshar, due to all our technology being optimized for Earth conditions. WWII-period military would almost certainly lose.
  5. IMHO, the problem with this discussion is that the arguments in favor of the earth military pre-suppose cosmere knowledge on the part of the Earthlings and ignore local conditions that would play havoc with our technology - like greater gravity on Elantris, lesser gravity and higher oxygen content on Roschar, ash in the air on pre-Catacendre Scadrial, different magnetospheres on the cosmere worlds coupled with the lack of satellite guidance, etc. Unlimited supply and reinforcements from Earth also seem to be a feature for some reason, which is not how conquests ever worked and would indeed make any resistance futile eventually. Now, if we were playing the old game of an army being unexpectedly sucked into a dimensional rift and stuck on one of the cosmere worlds, this could provide a better frame for debate. Even so: Taldain and the First, probably yes. Roshar would present a number of problems, depending on the initial bridgehead (east or west) and on whether the Radiants are around or not. Gravity/oxygen content, etc. should throw a significant monkey wrench into the more complex earth technologies as well. Threnody, absolutely not, given that literally anything that an army would need to do would infuriate the shades and the Evil is supposed to be even worse. Nalthis should be fairly susceptible, IMHO, since the Lifeless and even the Phantoms aren't anything that modern firearms and explosives can't easily deal with. Unless Vasher manages to throw Nightblood into any and all earth army encampements, Nalthians would be pretty SOL. Scadrial during TLR's tenure would be a hard nut to crack, between the ash, the killing heat on most of the globe, the kandra, the Inquisitors, the Mistborn, not to mention TLR himself and atium. The Second Era would be much easier and the planetary population is very low, to boot. In fact, there should be a lot of uninhabited, but very inhabitable land estate between the 2 poles, so it would be trivial for earthlings to establish bases with nobody the wiser. And Scadrial being very metal-rich, including the rare metals, would make it a very desirable target for conquest. Elantrians have a teleportation Aon that can potentially transport things to another planet, according to a WoB. They can also create things, IIRC. So, they would be able to potentially strike back at Earth and certainly to attack army encampements in a way that can't be countered, as long as they know their locations. Also, higher gravity would affect both sophisticated technology and soldiers. Etc.
  6. Ah, yes. Forgot to mention him, though I was deeply intrigued by him in the first book and rather disappointed by his fading into the background afterwards. In addition to everything else that you mentioned, his ardent is almost certainly a worldhopper and possibly a Ghostblood, judging both by his appearance and by the odd way he had adressed Dalinar back in WoK. This is one of the reasons why I want Azure to become a Windrunner and why I want Ishnah to become more prominent. It is kinda disappointing that both Kaladin's squires and Shallan's followers/her first squire are mostly (ex-)soldier dudes. I also want to see more new Radiants who become so independently of the main characters and, of course, Azure bonding Captain Notum and his subsequent interactions with Syl would be huge fun.
  7. So, let's talk about the latest reading: Quite a few intriguing tidbits here. The biggest, of course, being the confirmation that Lift is part of Cultivation's 3(?)-prongued effort to prepare certain people as her tools. The other 2 being Dalinar and Mr T. We also finally learned Lift's wish - which was essentially to always remain herself. That means that along with all the other stuff, she is immune to the Unmade influence. No wonder that she was able to dive into Thrill-covered areas that even the Fused were afraid to enter during the Battle of Thaylenah! So, what's her "curse"? The other significant revelation, IMHO, is that: And yet, the Nightwatcher is a Bondsmith spren, who bonded to humans in the past. But it also could be a hint that she is ultimately intended to bond with a non-human, though the singers PoVs have not been different enough from human ones, for my liking. Also, Rock is apparently no longer at Urithiru, with his daughter taking over the Lift-abetting duties, so maybe an expedition to the Horneater Peaks will play a major role in RoW, after all? Wyndle is back to his chair-obssession, it seems, and he is making shows for "the others". Who are they? Is he communicating with the other cultivationspren in Shadesmar or does he mean the other bonded Radiant spren? The whole inconsistency of bonded Nahel spren partly existing in the Cognitive Realm unless they are summoned as a blade, yet being able to hide from each other, the singers and Lift, who should be capable of seeing into the Cognitive even better than the singers, really bugs me. I hope that the logic and the limitations of how this all works will get explained in RoW. Finally, the flute. "An old flute that Wyndle said _looked strange to him_." Is it a hint that the flute is indeed
  8. Azure, Zahel, Rlain, Ishnah, Sigzil, Skybreaker Master Ki, Palona.
  9. What instability are you talking about and on what grounds do you insist that he was acting without supervision? Why? Helaran didn't do anything that Skybreakers would consider punisheable. Killing somebody on the field of battle, if you are fighting for the other side is A-OK with them. This is not the same as cutting somebody's throat without a warrant like with Gawx. I am also not sure that comparison with Kabsal holds water, as he wasn't given priceless relics so that he could do things on his own initiative. There are valid questions to be asked about Helaran - like could he have truly been unaware of his mother's connections? Was the fact that he was the one who encouraged Shallan to draw again really coincidental? Is it possible that while he sought out whatever secret organization he belonged to because he was looking for justice for his mother, that he then stayed with them to shield Shallan? I do find it very interesting that Taravangian theorised that Heleran may have been the one to _train_ Shallan as a surgebinder, for example. Etc. But none of his actions that he know of preclude him from having been an aspiring Skybreaker or Skybreaker-adjacent.
  10. Karger, it seems that much of the confusion in this discussion comes from you mixing up 2 related, but not interchangeable concepts - namely manufacturing, which is often used as a synonym for "producing" and "making" and manufactory. Manufactories were basically factories in that every worker only performed a few specialized steps in the production process. As such, they were much more efficient than individual artisans and were precursors for factories. Also, the workers could be quickly and easily trained. And it is true that manufactories existed during the peak of the Roman Empire, for example, but never made the jump towards mechanization at that time, as they did during the early modern times, both because slaves were cheap and because other technologies needed for machines to function, like metallurgy, just weren't where they needed to be. However, fabrial science on Roshar is going to fill most of the the technological advance requirements needed for mechanization. They are not doing it in the same way. The only thing that they are probably lacking are powered machines. Fabrial science is poised to create those, if they don't already exist. Among other things, heat fabrials could be also used to power a steam engine, for instance. I also don't understand your repeated insistence that lower classes must have ownership of machines for it to truly count as an Industrial Revolution, because it wasn't at all the case iRL. Also, literacy was not nearly as ubiquitious as you seem to think - plenty of British soldiers during the WWI were still illiterate, for instance. Anyway, it would be logical for people to become aware of the possibility of cosmere travel during the later SA, but it would be like the idea of travel along the Silk Road was for the Renaissance Europeans, IMHO. I.e. something that the educated knew about, but only a very few ever attempted. Rosharans are in some ways severely disadvantaged where cosmere travel is concerned - they are used to higher-oxygen, lower gravity world (70% of Earth normal, IIRC), where stormlight suppresses most infectious diseases. The Radiants could deal with it, if they figure out how to transport stormlight (infused gems in air-tight aluminium containers, IMHO) or how to substitute other investiture, but it would be hard for normal Rosharans to survive. Though not impossible, if Mraize is any guide. Cosmere travel _should_ be well-known on the era 3 Scadrial, but I have a feeling that Sanderson is going to treat it "Men in Black"-style, because he wants to keep the series mutually independent for as long as possible. It would be somewhat contrived, IMHO, particularly since I feel that it would be logical for the Iriali to migrate there between the 2 SA sub-series, and also because you'd think that an intrepid Scadrian world-hopping explorer would want to put their story in print. They seem to be keeping the knowledge secret on Nalthis as well, despite having customs at the perpendicularity. Maybe there is some exclusive trading guild that is jealously guarding it's monopoly? I'd dearly love to read a Sanderson story about somebody first discovering the world-hopping for themselves...
  11. Yes, but Dalinar still was able to swear the 2nd Oath, which the Stormfather was forced to accept. This happened shortly before he unbound his deadblade in WoR chapter 89, BTW, not after as you claim. That's much more than just "interested". They progressed quite far while still bonded to their deadblades - Ehlokar would have successfully sworn the First Oath and Timbre transitioned into the physical realm for Eshonai, despite the fact that the latter also had a voidspren in her gemheart as an additional complication. As an aside, I wonder if Eshonai's last flashback in RoW is going to be her death scene and we'll see her throw off Odium's mind control and Timbre come over for her, just a little too late to save her. While deadblades may have slowed down their progression to Radiancy, I was refuting the suggestion that somebody being bound to one would _prevent_ them from ever attracting and starting to bond a Radiant spren, which is plainly not the case with some Orders. I am not sure what you mean by "half-trained". In Shallan's flashbacks it is implied that Helaran was a good swordsman and he had a couple of years to learn to use the shards, given the timing of his encounter with Lin when Shallan first saw his shardblade. It should have been more than sufficient to take out a shardless Amaram on the battlefield. Don't forget that as far as we know, the Skybreakers didn't send a full knight after Tien, who, of course, was also killed in battle, either. In fact, a normal shardbearer should have been enough even to take out a budding Radiant of most Orders in the early stages of attracting a spren, just not a Windrunner, but then, nobody thought it possible that the honorspren would bond again. What indeed? I suspect that we'll be given an answer in RoW or maybe book 5. IMHO, the Skybreakers then have to resort to indirect methods and while they can't commission an assassination directly, they likely manipulate their target into the way of one (or more). It also may have taken the spren interested in bonding that long to figure out that they need to pick bondmates of high enough standing to keep them safer from the Skybreakers, too. From what we have seen of Nahel spren in Shadesmar, their understanding of humans and their societies seems to be rather limited. It is not at all. But the Ghostbloods could have killed Amaram in any number of ways. There was zero reason to give somebody highly valuable shards to do so on a battlefield and even less to let Amaram live for more than a year and keep such items after the attempt failed. Remember how the Ghostbloods wanted the comparatively less valuable marble-producing soulcaster back from the Davars? It does fit with the constraints that the Skybreakers have to work under, though, and Amaram's activities made him a valid target for them. I also have a hard time imagining Helaran joining the same organization as his hated father.
  12. Even so, I'd like to point out that the twins are only 2 years older than Shallan according to that scene in WoR where 13-year-old Shallan was on the stairs with 15-year-old, slightly drunk Jushu. So, Wikim would have been like 13-14 when Gavilar died . Didn't work that way for Dalinar, Ehlokar and Eshonai, who were all bonded to dead shardblades before they started on the path to Radiancy. All we know is that the _honorspren_ would have been deterred, but then nobody expected that any of them would have tried to bond anyway, which is why Kaladin and Syl were such a surprise. So far it seems that the Lightweaver, the Edgedancer and the Truthwatcher spren were the ones who repeatedly attempted to bond in the past and the former 2 even did so as a group effort. It does seem that his initial motive was to seek justice for his mother's death, which would have fit Skybreakers very well indeed. I vehemently disagree with this. First of all, killing somebody on the battlefield is entirely legal as long as you are fighting for the other side, both from Alethi and from the Skybreaker PoVs. Nale expounded on the "law of conquest" to Szeth in OB, making it clear that he, and by extension the Skybreakers, don't see wars as illegal acts. And second - most of the budding Radiants wouldn't have had any criminal history and some would have stood too high in the social heirarchy to ever be condemned to death, so the Skybreakers must have other methods of eliminating them. War being the most direct and convenient (see also Tien), but what happened to Shallan may have been par for the course for the cases when no execution warrant could have feasibly been obtained. Now, Amaram probably wasn't suspected of Radiancy, unless there was a mix-up with Kaladin, but he was a member of an organization dedicated to the return of the Heralds and the Radiants and Gavilar's confidant, which makes it more surprising that the Skybreakers had waited as long as they did to try to get rid of him, rather than that they made their attempt at last. Unless, that is, this wasn't their first one. So, we had only a very limited look at how Nale personally, not the Skybreakers in general, operates. In all 3 cases his targets, conveniently for him, had criminal history and were of lowly enough status that obtaining death warrants for them was easy. Does that mean that he would have just let a budding Radiant who was completely innocent of everything be? Or would have done nothing about somebody protected by their status? Not IMHO, because in such a case the other Orders would have returned long since. But he would have been forced to act indirectly and creatively, possibly through several layers of acolytes and Skybreaker-adjacent people who weren't yet bound by the strictures of the Oaths, like what likely happened to Shallan. It is rather significant that the Skybreaker hopefuls are pardoned for any crimes that they may have committed in the past before they swear the First Oath, isn't it? Perhaps they are used in "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" fashion before that, so that the real Order members can keep the letter of their Oaths. Also, "Edgedancer" demonstrated that Nale didn't know who the person in the process of bonding was, just their approximate location and had to identify them via good old detective work. That his squires failed at and went after the wrong person. Which means that some kind of mix-up regarding Amaram - and maybe Kaladin? was definitely possible. Perhaps nobody came back because once Shallan fell into near-catatonia and her bond regressed to almost nothing, there was nothing for Skybreakers to detect? They may have thought that the bond was successfully broken once and for all and moved on. I too wondered if Lady Davar might not have been an Envisager who tried to frighten Shallan into displaying her powers - which, if true, would have made the whole situation even more tragic. But the tenor of Shallan's oblique memories of the time that preceded the confrontation doesn't fit. There is another bizarre thing, though - namely that none of the Davar boys, not even Helaran, seemed to notice the rising tension and quarrels between Shallan and her mother leading to the whole incident nor got the wind of the reason for the heated arguments between their parents ditto. This is really odd, because it doesn't seem like the senior Davars were particularly discreet about their disagreements. According to Nale, conquest isn't unjust, according to Alethi on whose territory Helaran was operating war isn't a crime and what makes you think that he or his organization care about innocence? If they did, they wouldn't have been able to successfully suppress the other Orders for as long as they did. It is absurd to think that a death warrant could have been obtained for every budding Radiant in the past, and that only people with criminal histories would have been selected for the Nahel bonds. As to Helaran's mentor, they could have been right there in the camps. They wouldn't have stepped in themselves, because living shards are quite distinctive and also, they may have been a woman. Either way them showing up on the battlefield would have endangered Skybreaker secrecy. As to the beef - in WoR Shallan saw Amaram's extensive research into Urithiru. His intention to find it would have been a more than sufficient reason for the Skybreakers to take him out. And also, let's not forget that a budding Radiant was just there, in Amaram's army. Who is to say that Helaran and his mentor didn't make a mistake similar to that of Nale's squires in Edgedancer and identified the wrong person? In this case, Kaladin's enslavement and subsequent rapid change of ownerships and locations may have been a blessing in disguise, because it would have muddled his trail. The Skybreakers weren't looking to eliminate "evil" people, but those involved in the attempts to return the other Radiant Orders or to cause a Desolation. As such, T was uninteresting to them and we can't really say anything definite about Restares, so who knows, maybe he is both legally unassailable and very cautious. I am convinced that Nale had a hand in Gavilar's death, in an indirect way that didn't clash with his interpretation of the Oaths. Amaram was both Gavilar's apparent confidant and was personally participating in warfare, which made him a logical and easy target. As seen in Edgedancer, the Skybreakers know in which town an incipient Radiant is, but not who. Once they had identified their target, they could doggedly follow it, like Nale did to Lift.
  13. Kaladin is intelligent, but not curious. He is only interested in things with immediate practical applications and rather dismissive of learning for it's own sake, or art for that matter. This may be the result of his circumstances, or a natural inclination, hard to say. BTW, even many highborn light-eyes men can't read glyphs - neither Adolin nor Renarin could, to begin with, and Adolin still can't as of OB, while Renarin taught himself in order to understand the glyphs appearing in his visions.
  14. What genre are you talking about? Sounds like superhero comics genre to me, rather than epic fantasy. And frankly, that's one of the reasons why I find those boring, along with constant reboots and the fact that nobody of significance ever really dies. In the past they had thousands of Radiants and all the Heralds fighting against the Fused, the thunderclasts and the Unmade and it still wasn't enough to prevent the collapse of civilization every time. Now, you expect a handful of new Radiants to somehow manage better than that? Sorry, that would be super-contrived. It already strains plausibility that they won't be permanently squashed between books 3 and 4. Says who? Bridge 4 was on-screen a lot in OB and is certainly going to be present in all important battles. And we all know why Malata stayed on the outskirts. Radiants are not masked vigilants, who tend to act alone and have the luxury of either facing mooks or having one-on-ones with their nemesises. There have to be a lot of Radiants to do any good and they have to support each other with their different abilities. If Adolin became king, he could have remained normal and been an important character with lots of interesting challenges to overcome. That's not what happened, however, and the whole plot of Maya waking up would only be worth it if she regains her memories and finally fills in the rest of the picture concerning the Recreance, as well as convinces the still recalcitrant spren to cooperate. And given that Lift is currently a pacifist, it would be great to see what more traditional Edgedancers are capable of in battle. Navani as a talented artifabrian is qualified to be a useful supporting character. Adolin as a Highprince would need to provide military leadership - and as a young man and a great fighter, he would be expected to lead from the front. We have seen his skills on the battlefield and his training as a military commander - we don't quite know what he can offer off it. As such, he could really profit from having stormlight and surges. A lot of jobs that the main Radiants did until now would hopefully be taken over by minor Radiants, because there is a lot to do, much more than a handful of even super-powered people can believably accomplish. And having more Radiants with the surge of Regrowth would be particularly helpful, because there are going to be a lot of people to heal and crops to force-grow to feed them (Lift can't do that last, BTW, because of how she gains investiture - it is a zero-sum game with her, as Wyndle helpfully explained in Edgedancer). @Pathfinder: Fen, Gawx, etc., don't have to become Radiants, but they should need Radiants protecting them, IMHO, because if I was the Fused, I would take a page from Taravangian's book and start assassinating rulers of the anti-Odium coalition, as well as their key generals, administrators and scholars. Ditto destroy Tashikk spanreed exchange.
  15. We know after OB that Iri decided to side with Odium despite the fact that it used to be one of the Silver Kingdoms and a staunch part of the anti-Odium alliance in the past. However, in Odium's negotiations with Taravangian it became obvious that he is very reluctant to promise safety to human countries in return for their cooperation. My guess is that this is because of the pre-existing deal between Odium and the Fused, which promised them Roshar (but not specified the condition it is going to be in). So, what could he have promised to the Iriali leaders? IMHO, help with moving to their next "Land" and escaping the Final Desolation. After all, that's what we learned about the Iriali from Ym's Interlude back in WoR: The Iriali have been stuck on Roshar for thousands of years and it would make sense that they made the same calculation as Taravangian - that this latest conflict with Odium couldn't be won, and decided that it was finally time for their people to head for the Fifth Land. Why Scadrial? Scadrial is convenient because it has a perpendicularity, yet is mostly empty just 3 or so centuries after the Catacendre - and even before that, most of it was uninhibitable. Now it is largely suited to human habitation, but it would take the Scadrians a long time to build up numbers and spred to fill it. It is also clearly to Odium's advantage to help the Iriali move there. This gambit already worked for him on Roshar, after all. What is more and what makes Scadrians such a threat to whoever is behind the red-eyed "faceless immortals" and to Odium, unless they are one and the same, is that the planet and the people are special because they were created by only the 2 Shards now being combined in Harmony. Other Shards have no purchase there, no beachhead, and Scadrians are extensions of Harmony to the degree not shared by the people and planets created by Adonalsium and later taken over by the Shards, which still have the investiture of all of the 16 in them. By introducing Iriali people to Scadrial, Odium would disrupt this situation and get a foot in the door, so to speak. This snippet from the State of Sanderson may or may not be connected: "I consider Wax and Wayne’s final book to be imperative to finish before I start Stormlight Five." given that it would make sense for the Iriali to leave during a Willshaper book and for W&W folks to possibly run into them either a few years after or in the process of their arrival on-world (in case of time dilation during interstellar travel through the Cognitive), in "The Last Metal".