Factfinder

In another thread I attempted to describe Whimsy as the representation of "random acts of god". Most people on the forums seems to focus on predicting / understanding the shards by placing them in opposing pairs (like Ruin vs. Preservation) or groups of four. And there are very good reasons for that! Personally, however, I now suspect those thought experiments will prove to be a dead end. I doubt anyone had predicted Whimsey from them, after all. We could have predicted it had we focused on the various attributes of the Abrahamic god, however. The shards seem to be the various attributes of that deity personified and exaggerated. Here's how I think of the shards we have so far: Ambition, the god who drives people toward achieving what they never thought possible (the god athletes pray to before a game, or the god overseeing biblical stories such as "David and Goliath"). Autonomy, god as a guaranteer of free will Cultivation, god as the gardener of Eden Devotion, god as a source of altruistic love and support Dominion, the "jealous god" who will accept no challenge to his authority and cast humans out of Eden when they did so. Endowment, god as a giver of blessings and other gifts Honor, god as maker of covenants and upholder of moral codes Invention, god as the creator of existence, who literally invented the universe Mercy, god as a pardoner and redeemer of sins. Possibly also an "angel of mercy" type character with a surprisingly high kill-count. Odium, the wrath of god now stripped of any moral context or restraint Preservation, the god who sends guardian angels (Faceless immortals, anyone?) and sustains reality. Ruin, the god who sends global floods, biblical plagues, and destroys cities in rains of fire Valor, god as the "lord of hosts" who commands armies of angels (or seons / spren / some other Cognitive equivalent) Whimsey, the aforementioned "random acts of god", the god who is unpredictable, unknowable, and can never be understood by rational analysis. Note that I'm a life-long atheist that was raised in a christian-majority nation, and so learned biblical stories mostly through cultural osmosis. So I'd enjoy hearing from an actual believer in any of the Abrahamic religions as to whether those descriptions seem off or objectionable. Given the list so far, I'd expect us to see another shard that focuses on "tests of faith" in the tradition of biblical stories like Abraham and Isaac (side note: I find the "moral" lesson in that story utterly appalling but that's a discussion for another day). Expect a name like "Adversity" or "Assessment". I've seen "Tribulation" suggested every so often on these forums, but that word has a specific meaning and history in christian eschatology, so I suspect Sanderson would rather avoid it. I would be pleased at a final shard named "Discovery", god as a supporter of learning and exploration. I'm a scientist in real life, and while most of us tend to be very secular my more faithful colleagues sometimes talk about how offended their god would be if no one ever took the time to closely study the universe he had gone to all the trouble to create. Discovery seems to address that mindset, and would fall under the rumors of a wisdom shard as well.

The 16 shards (to me at least) seem to be aspects of the Abrahamic god written large and personified. We have... Odium, god as the righteous smiter of evil now sadly corrupted by a lack of other traits that would provide context or restraint. Endowment, god as a bestower of blessings Ruin, god as a sender of plagues and destroyer of cities Cultivation, god as the gardener of Eden Honor, god as a maker of covenants and who demands certain moral codes are upheld Dominion, the "jealous god" who will not suffer a challenge to his authority ...and so on. Although I'm an atheist, so my interpretation of those terms might differ from that of an actual believer. "Whimsey" strikes me not so much as a Sheogorath style mad god, but as a personification of "random acts of god". Not necessarily insane, just prone throwing the dice and seeing what happens. You know, the god who sends freak lightning strikes out of a clear sky one day, then ensures a random child who falls five stories into a heap of rusty nails gets to walk away without a scratch the next. Although admittedly Sheogorath on a good day might do either of those. Or both. Or skip rope with the child's entrails and then revive it with the lightning strike. As a side note, the discussion of what Whimsey's magic might entail makes me agree that unlocking it is likely to be random. Which makes me look suspiciously at Elantris and the Shaod, which is a largely random event that grants people access to the AonDor. Yes, I know two other shards are what empower the AonDor, but they're splintered now so they can't be said to be in control of it any more, and I can just see someone called Whimsey deciding to make its effects more random just for giggles.

Hi everyone! Over the last week, I've been thinking about how the Fused are direct analogs to the Knights Radiant, to the point of having identical surges (albeit one of each rather than two). So I thought perhaps that extended to the Fused swearing Oaths as well. I couldn't find anything about this in the forums, so I decided to post my best attempts at coming up with potential Fused Oaths. The inspiration for these Oaths came from what we've learned about the Fused in the early-release chapters for Rhythm of War, so I'm posting this here in the spoiler section. Nothing below actually seems spoiler-y, but I figured it was better to be cautious. Windrunner: I will protect. Fused equivalent: I will destroy. "Our people will never be safe so long as the enemy yet lives. No cost is too great to see our foes ended. If thousands of us must die today, so be it. Our children, who by our actions will never know the cruelty we have endured, will one day thank us for our sacrifice." Skybreaker: I will seek justice Fused equivalent: I will have vengeance. "Our people were betrayed, and our enemies have stolen what is ours. For this they must be punished. It matters not if the original perpetrators now lie dead, for their children yet live, and must pay the price of the crimes of their ancestors. Only when they have suffered as we have suffered will we finally know peace." Dustbringer: I will seek self-mastery Fused equivalent: I will submit to my masters "I couldn’t control myself. I didn’t want to hurt them, but I was so angry, so afraid…. I lashed out, but I didn’t mean to! Please, help me! I fear it will happen again. The next time I see their smirking faces, hear their taunts and lies, I won’t be able to stop it! I’ll follow your orders, do anything you want, just take from me the responsibility. Let someone else bear the blame for what I do!" Edgedancer: I will remember. Fused equivalent: I will not forgive. "Memories are so short; the next generation is always too quick to overlook the pains inflicted upon the last and then move on in the name of peace. But I was there. I saw, and I endured, and I will not allow the mere passage of time to allow our foes to escape just retribution. I will remind my children – all of the children! – of what was done to us, so that when they see the face of the enemy their hatred will be kin to my own." Truthwatcher: I will seek truth Fused equivalent: I will forge my own truth. "Today, it’s useful to me that everyone believes one thing, but tomorrow is a new day. If some other truth is more useful then, I’ll see to it that everyone changes their mind. A whispered word here, a mere hint dropped there, and suddenly the world is upside down. A king stands in my way? Spread the right rumor, and the mob will see him removed and now it is I that sits upon his throne. No laws need ever bind me, for the truth is what I say it is." Lightweaver: I will speak my truth Fused equivalent: I will reject the past that binds me. "It was simply too much. The pain, the grief, the fear… Can you blame me for just walking away? It was so easy. I‘ve made a new life for myself, in a new place, and I’ll never again have to remember what came before. So what if I left friends and loved ones behind? They would have left me eventually anyway, because everyone always does, one way or another. Better to be the one that left. And if anyone ever tries to hurt me again… well, I’m a new person now. And I won’t be the one who’s the victim anymore." Elsecaller: I will reach my potential. Fused equivalent: I will not be replaced. "I’m the best. Everyone knows it, and no one will ever take that from me. But now this newcomer, she think she's so good, so skilled. She think I’ve gotten weaker and slower since my victory, and that now she stands a chance against me. I won’t have it. I worked too hard, sacrificed too much, to allow some idiot child to claim it for herself. I will tear her down and leave her broken in the dust for having the gall to think even for one moment that she could ever be half as good as me." Willshaper: I will seek freedom Fused equivalent: I will be in control "Power and authority are mine by right. I am stronger, smarter, and more capable than the fools that surround me. I will not tolerate dissension, for the enemy will be sure to exploit the inevitable mistakes anyone else would make in my place. Those who are reasonable will bow before my superiority, and they can be allowed some minor autonomy on less important matters. But those that resist? They threaten everything will their incompetence. For the good of all, I will bend them to my will. There is always menial work that needs doing, and slaves required to do it, after all." Stoneward: I will be there when I’m needed. Fused equivalent: I will rely on no one but myself. "Life is filled with disappointments. Allies betray you, friends forget about you, and even lovers grow tiresome eventually. You can’t rely on anyone, so why pretend otherwise? Look, you say you need help but I don’t owe you anything. Solve your own problems and leave me to mine. I’m not about to do you any favors. Call it selfish if you want, I honestly don’t care. This is just how life works. At least I admit it." Bondsmith: I will unite. Fused equivalent: N/A Note: There are only 9 types of Fused, and like many others here I suspect it is the Bondsmiths that don’t have an equivalent.

Well, I did ask to be corrected if I committed a faux pas... My mistake! .... After thinking it over for a day, I believe I found a fifth oath that weds the main point I was trying to make with the main ones thegatorgirl00 and a few others were making. Specifically: Try this on for for a fifth Windrunner Ideal: "I will teach / inspire those in danger to protect each other." This makes the leadership role I originally suggested less blatant (which I now think was a very valid criticism offered by thegatorgirl00) while preserving the actual intent. It is also contrary to the "thing that originally attracted a spren", in that it no longer involves the Windrunner actively protecting people in person. However, like a Skybreaker becoming a source of the law, the Windrunner is still effectively a source of large-scale protection through indirect means. As for the fifth Ideal being difficult to swear... Imagine how hard it would be for someone like Kaladin to admit that he can't always step in and protect people from danger, and that sometimes they'll have to do it themselves. This just occurred to me as I typed this, but the above Ideal would fit right in with the actions of Queen Fen in chapter 34 of Oathbringer, during which the monarch organized the defense of the village being attacked by Midnight Essence in the Stormfather's vision. Food for thought. My revised Windrunner oaths would therefore be: Second: oath of protection Third: oath to protect for selfless reasons Fourth: oath to work with allies, accepting that they might be hurt while doing so, to protect against threats too large for one person to deal with on their own. Fifth: oath to inspire / teach others to protect themselves when the Windrunner cannot be there to protect them in person or is otherwise unable to do so.

True, I too would miss the opportunity to have Nightblood snarking at Szeth... but would consider that a more-than-equitable trade-off for the chance to have Nightblood snarking at the Stormfather. Picture a scene in which Dalinar has recently drawn Nightblood: Stormfather: What in Tanavast's name is that bastard offspring of a true spren and a chasmfiend doing in your hand and what did it just do to that Fused you hit with it?! Nightblood: Bastard offspring?! Who is this guy? He sounds awful evil to me... That just means Dalinar has to plan in advance. Step 1: summon the perpendicularity. Step 2: use the perpendicularity to infuse literally (not metaphorically) a metric ton of gemstones with stormlight. Step 3: rest for a bit. Step 4: pass out infused gemstones to Dalinar's non-Radiant, non-Squire bodyguards. Step 5: go to war and have said bodyguards toss a few bags of gemstones Dalinar's way when he and Nightblood are running low. Step 6: epic win.

I'll have to think about the first part of your post for a while, but let me offer the counterargument to what you say here. First, Lightweavers are already weird in that they don't swear oaths at all beyond the first, unlike all the other orders we know about. So I don't think they can be used as a "normal" example. I would argue that they do demonstrate both of their stated attributes though: honesty in the truths they tell to advance in rank, and as for creativity the in-universe book Words of Radiance states that the Lightweavers "included many who pursued the arts; namely writers, artists, musicians, and sculptors." For the Skybreakers, I'd say that the fourth Ideal (the Ideal of Crusade) is all about gaining confidence by another name. This ideal, after all, is about accomplishing a life goal. To draw upon my own life, I'd say this is similar to the process I went through to earn my PhD, a goal that took years of hard work and dedication to achieve. Early on, my advisor / mentor told me that I'd know I was ready to graduate when one day I woke up and realized that I'd stopped treating him and the other members of the faculty with awe or deference and started treating them as equals -- in other words, when I had gained confidence in my abilities as a fellow scientist. For the Skybreakers, I'd say the Ideal of Crusade is all about fulfilling a personal mission in order to gain the confidence they'll need to be able to swear the Ideal of Law later on. As to the Bondsmiths showing Piety and Guidance, Dalinar's second oath already shows the latter (bringing men together requires the Bondsmith to guide men toward greater unity). As to piety, consider Dalinar's latest oath in the context of who the gods of Roshar are: "I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man." Odium very clearly wanted Dalinar to blame his mistakes on others, leaving him to wallow in perceived injustice, his worst traits unchecked and his resentment at the world festering. (This, by the way, appears to be where Moash is at by the end of Oathbringer.) Accepting personal responsibility and thereby learning from his mistakes was a key trait in making Dalinar a more honorable man. This oath, therefore, is all about rejecting the influence of humanity's old god, Odium, in favor of their new god, Honor. I suspect Ishar himself was the original missionary of Honor that helped covert the humans of Roshar to the worship of the Almighty; his artistic depictions and actions as Tezim scream "cleric" to me. Dalinar's future oaths might involve him seeking to reform the Vorin church so it more closely resembles Honor's intent. The Alethi highprinces in particular could use some ardents explaining that backstabbing and betrayal should be for Odium's worshipers, not those of the Almighty. More generically, Dalinar could swear to cultivate (deliberate word choice there) humanity's relationship with Honor. Also, I apologize for being so long-winded. For my next oath, I swear to be less long-winded in future posts.

Oh! "It" was referring to the honorblade, not Nightblood as I obviously assumed. Right, that was my bad. I forgot that part.

Err.... No? Moash was given a knife that he used to kill Jezrien, but Szeth still had Nightblood by the end of Oathbringer. Moash's knife had a similar effect (trailing black smoke and leaving blackened wounds), but it wasn't Nightblood itself.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/63776-ob-dalinar-should-wield-nightblood/ So yeah, Szeth should do exactly as you say and use his own spren. ...And pass Nightblood on to the guy who's spren refuses to act as a shardblade: Dalinar. Whom Szeth has already sworn to follow anyway. And who (as the original poster in that thread pointed out) is able to summon functionally infinite stormlight to power Nightblood any time he wants.

I like this. It gets around the Stormfather's refusal to act as a shardblade for Dalinar, Szeth won't need Nightblood anymore once he starts summoning his own Skybreaker spren as a blade, and Szeth is already following Dalinar as of the end of Oathbringer so he's well positioned to hand it over. And Dalinar seems like a much better check on Nightblood's homicidal tendencies than the Assassin in White anyway. The only objection I can come up with is that Dalinar's close watch over and interaction with Jezrien's honorblade struck me as blatant foreshadowing that Dalinar would take it up himself, but maybe that was just a red herring. I wonder who will get the honorblade if Dalinar gets Nightblood instead?

I was going to address this part in my post, but it was already getting absurdly long... It's true that Kaladin leads Bridge Four into dangerous situations, but pay attention to Kaladin's inner monologues on this topic. He always frames his interactions with the team in terms of how he, Kaladin, will protect the other members. In the early chapters of Words of Radiance, Kaladin even berates himself for not asking Dalinar to make all of Bridge Four surgeons, specifically because he doesn't want them risking themselves. Remember as well that he only taught them to fight in the first place as a means of keeping them safe / helping them to escape from a dangerous situation. Not once does he ever consider a situation in which they're the ones looking out for him (beyond moral support, anyway), or placing themselves at risk on his behalf. Quite the opposite; every time they do, he actively objects and tries to stand between Bridge Four and danger no matter how injured or exhausted he might be at the time. Over the long run, that behavior will just get him killed. And who can he protect then, eh? It's also interesting to compare Kaladin to Teft (our other Windrunner). They've both sworn the third Ideal by the end of Oathkeeper, so the fourth should involve something they both need to work on. Teft hates himself and thinks himself less worthy of life than his friends. Kaladin suffers from depression and uses the need to protect his friends as an excuse to go on living when he's at his lowest points. Both of those men would have a real problem with an oath to let others protect them, and such an oath would be an excellent way to drive character growth. Teft needs to learn that he is a good person worth saving, and Kaladin needs to learn that there's nothing wrong with having his allies face danger beside him, sharing the burden, rather than making them stand several steps behind while he tries to carry it all.

I have a different take on the fourth Ideal than the general consensus of this topic seems to be converging on. Here’s my version: “No one can be strong all the time. I will accept the protection of my allies when I cannot protect myself.” For that matter, here’s my take on the fifth Ideal while I’m at it: “I will lead my allies in the defense of _________.” Where “_________” is left up to the individual Windrunner to decide. Maybe it’s as restrictive as “my little brother Oroden”. Maybe it’s as broad as “Roshar” or even “the cosmere” for the really ambitious. But let’s get into reasons. (By the way, this is my first post; I don’t really…. do… forums usually, but Sanderson has enough books out with enough subtleties that it’s nearly impossible for one person to pick up on everything by themselves. So here we are with the exception to the rule. I mention this in the event that I violate some rule or etiquette without realizing it. My sincere apologies if so.) When trying to work out the fourth Ideal, I focused on different moments in the Stormlight Archive than other people seemed to. I considered the moment in Way of Kings where Kaladin nearly saw Bridge Four wiped out in a retaliatory strike after distracting the Parshendi with his bone-covered armor, only for Dalinar to save the day by deliberately cutting down the enemy archers. Or when Kaladin killed the Chasmfiend in Words of Radiance, but only managed to do so by borrowing Shallan’s shardblade and taking advantage of an assist from her illusions. Or during the climax of Oathbringer, where Kaladin and Shallan are out of stormlight and Adolin is injured, and the only reason all three of them didn’t die right then and there was another assist from Dalinar. In all of these scenes, Kaladin curses himself for not being able to protect those around him on his own. And that’s what I think the fourth Ideal really needs to address: the fact that, powerful as he is, Kaladin must accept he is just one man and cannot do everything by himself. He needs allies. More importantly, he needs to understand that sometimes HE is the one those allies will need to protect, and that he is just as deserving of that protection as everyone else. Syl even flat-out tells him this during the climax of Oathbringer (chapter 119) when she says, “Maybe you don’t have to save everyone Kaladin. Maybe it’s time for someone to save you.” In context that quote comes across as her merely reassuring Kaladin that everything will be okay, but I think it was actually more hidden-in-plain-sight foreshadowing from Sanderson. Keep in mind that this quote came immediately after Kaladin tried to say the fourth Ideal so he could claim more power and save his allies. If my suspicion about what the forth ideal entails is correct, this would neatly explain his failure to do so. His intentions at the time were in direct conflict with the oath he had to swear. Notice as well that the wording of this oath is specific. “I will accept the protection of my allies.” Not, “I will leave others to die.” Not, “I will throw innocents into harm to better save my own skin.” No, the protection has to be just as freely offered as Kaladin’s protection of others, and from allies who are therefore presumably capable of offering that protection. A child could not rightly be considered an ally in a war, so there’s no worry about a conflict of oaths if Kaladin refuses to let a five year old fight his battles for him either. Finally, I see this oath as a stepping-stone in the Windrunner’s oaths moving from protection to leadership, since those are the attributes they are supposed to be representing. The progression of oaths would therefore be: Second: declaration to protect others. Third: refinement of the previous oath. The Windrunner will protect for selfless reasons. Fourth: the Windrunner will work in a group to better protect people from dangers no one person can handle on their own. Furthermore, the Windrunner must accept that this means that those allies may be ones getting hurt in defense of the Windrunner rather than the other way around (as a Windrunner would naturally prefer; this is the part giving Kaladin issues right now). Fifth: refinement of the previous oath. The Windrunner assumes leadership of his or her allies in the defense of some favored group or individual. So what do other readers think? Personally, I believe this is a much more positive oath than vowing to accept that some people can’t be saved (which seems to violate Life before Death to my mind) or that it may be necessary to murder innocents for the greater good (which seems to violate Journey before Destination), while solving many of the same moral issues.