Llarimar

This made me smile

Yes, because many of the "gods" of the cosmere are entities that people have actually seen and met, I've always considered Jasnah's atheism to be an attitudinal stance. She knows that beings of great power and significance exist, so it's not like she doesn't believe in them, but she just doesn't consider them worthy of being worshiped as gods because they're not all-powerful and flawlessly perfect. Like, someone in the cosmere who doesn't believe in the existence of "gods" like the Heralds, or the spren, or any given Shard of Adonalsium, is wrong, because those entities do objectively exist. But choosing to believe that they are worthy of worship, or that there is some fundamental distinction between, say, a Knight Radiant and someone like Cultivation, rather than a natural gradient, is another question altogether. And in the scope of the cosmere, I think Jasnah's stance makes a lot of sense. Most of the "gods" we've seen are all imperfect and extremely human individuals, so if you want your gods to be perfect and pure (which not necessarily everyone does), then there would be no reason to consider any of the "gods" of the cosmere to be worthy of worship. Thus a belief in the God Beyond makes a lot of sense, and is really the only escape for the nihilism in the cosmere which starts to consume you when you realize that the "gods" are just flawed humans who are ridiculously highly Invested.

@Weltall, the quotes you've provided are helpful - the fact that Hoid saw the Shattering as a necessity makes me think there were indeed extenuating circumstances which motivated the killing, rather than just greedy motives. But I also can't shake the feeling that there was a wrongness to it, like it was something that should have been or could have been avoided. I also wonder if there were some degree of manipulation involved - if some of the darker-intented Vessels convinced the others it needed to happen, when in fact it didn't. What it reminds me of, really, is the splitting of the crystal in the Dark Crystal, for anyone who is familiar. In that movie there's an ancient, sacred crystal which is broken, which splits apart the deities and blights the earth, with the eventual resolution of the story being the restoration of the crystal. But during the interim while the crystal is broken, it is a time of wrongness and disunity, and there is a sense that it never should have happened. This is how I feel about the Shattering - that the killing of Adonalsium and the seizing of the Shards was somehow deeply wrong, or at the very least not ideal.

This has probably been discussed before, but I have so many questions surrounding the killing of Adonalsium, and one of the biggest is whether it was an evil act. Although a number of the gods we've seen have been clearly evil, a lot of them have seemed like "good guys", (though that may just be because of nature of their Shard), and for a while I've been worried that they were essentially villains. From what we've learned it seems like the murder was very dark and disturbing, like something that should never have happened, and that has afflicted the cosmere with a terrible wound ever since. There are multiple circumstances I think could have surrounding the killing of Adonalsium, among which are: 1. It was an evil, unnecessary act carried out by violent criminals who outsmarted Adonalsium, a benevolent god, for the sake of their own greed 2. It was a violent, but ultimately necessary and chivalrous act which was carried out either (A) as a last resort in response to some terrible mistake or impending threat, with Adonalsium possibly consenting, or (B) in response to the madness and deterioration of Adonalsium 3. It was a natural killing without dark undertones, to which Adonalsium consented to for some reason (perhaps his age and fatigue) Obviously there are other possibilities but I feel like Scenario 1 is the most likely from what we have seen, and that kind of... disturbs me. The fact that the 16 gods were all criminals and murderers - it makes the cosmere seem strangely nihilistic and broken (and suddenly a belief in the God Beyond makes a lot of sense). And to anyone who points out that Hoid was there... that doesn't provide me with any assurance that the killing of Adonalsium was any more justified. Hoid is kind of a gray character, and I can definitely see him participating in an evil murder-heist to kill a god if he had the proper motivation.

Thanks for this, @Rushu42, I'm glad to know other people were as impressed with Navani as I was! I can't wait to see her figure out her powers and oaths in the next books. I feel the same that Venli is a curiously dislikable character in a way that seems intentional (it's perversely part of her appeal), but I've also talked to someone who says she's unironically one of their favorites, so go figure. And that's a great idea to have a Venli-Eshonai reconciliation arc, perhaps akin to Dalinar in OB where he hears his wife's voice through the spiritual realm.

I didn't hear it from the 17th Shard podcast, though maybe if I absorbed it from commenters in the forum, that's where they heard it. My assumption was partially based on that scene in OB (I don't have the book with me now), where Dalinar has a vision of the Recreance and he sees the Radiants willingly abandon their oaths. That whole scene was framed as very dignified and noble, and I remember there being some mention to the fact that the Radiants "feared what their powers could bring" or something. The fact that the Recreance was depicted a chivalrous, moral act led me to assume that the spren were willing participants, since if the act was moral it seemed obvious they would agree.

I am ALL FOR Jasnah becoming a worldhopping figure in future books, and I definitely think she can handle the cosmere (however the question of whether the cosmere can handle her, as you point out, is up for debate). But I'm not sure how I feel about the Jasnah-Wit relationship. From Wit's perspective, it's strange to imagine him in a relationship, not only because of his jovial and philandering personality but also because he's basically immortal - no matter how intelligent Jasnah is, how can she really compete with him when he knows so much? And are we sure that Wit is being completely honest, like, would he really tell Jasnah everything he knows? From Jasnah's perspective, I think it's strange since I was pretty much certain she was gay and I thought I would have been a great opportunity to include a gay or asexual character. So it just really took me by surprise, and even disappointed me. Maybe I'll warm up to the idea if they stay together in future books.

Yeah, my younger brother was also shocked by the reveal, so I'm sure not everyone suspected it. Some theories are suspected and then later confirmed, but for some reason I thought that this theory had already been confirmed in OB, which is why the "reveal" confused me.

So... funny story that this thread has reminded me of. I once had a dream that I was reading a Mistborn book, and it said something like, "Vin was flying over Luthadel. She passed by a cathedral, where worshippers were gathering. A new religion had been forming in the city, called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and its followers were called Mormons. Vin wasn't sure about this new religion..." And I remember being so shocked and disappointed in the dream, like, "Why would he do this? Why is he using his books as a religious soapbox? He's broken the fourth wall!" It was very funny.

Yeah... and if it was sort of a logical leap to assume that the spren willingly went along with the Recreance, then I don't think it should have been framed as a bombshell moment like it was in RoW. At the very least Adolin should have said something like, "Don't you know why the Radiants abandoned their oaths? How do we know the spren didn't agree with them?" The fact that it was never brought up during the trial made it seem like there was a lack of communication - like Dalinar, for instance, presumably knew why the Radiants abandoned their oaths, but didn't tell Adolin.

When Maya reveals that the Radiants and spren mutually chose to break their oaths, for some reason this was not a surprise to me, but I can't remember why. I don't know if there is a hint in OB that suggests the spren chose to break their oaths, or if perhaps I stumbled across a forum on this page which made the same suggestion, but either way I felt like I already knew this. I was, in fact, a little confused throughout the entire Shadesmar sequence and the honorspren trial because I kept thinking, "I thought the Radiants and the spren knew what they were doing, and that it was the right thing to do. Why is no one saying that?" I'm pretty sure the reveal that the Radiants broke their oaths because they feared their powers would lead to disaster (as happened on Ashyn), in other words that breaking their oaths was a chivalrous act, was revealed in OB. Maybe it didn't explicitly say at the time that the spren were also clued in to the morality of breaking the oaths, but isn't it obvious that they would have been? I must have just assumed that the spren knew what they were doing, and why they were doing it, because the Radiants knew. Does anyone know if it's been stated or strongly suggested before RoW that the Radiant spren were willing participants in the Recreance, and if so was anyone else confused by this being treated like a bombshell reveal?

I did love this! I was a bit concerned at times that they were "humanizing" the antagonists too much and making it seem like no one is "the bad guy", which does bother me to an extent (I like fleshed-out villains but I also like them to truly be villains). But I appreciated that even as we developed a better understanding of where Raboniel's motivations were coming from, that doesn't mean she became a "good guy" - she stayed true to her convictions by continuing to corrupt the Sibling and by inventing anti-Stormlight. Leshwi is a different example since I think she is leaning more towards "good" at the end - or at least, towards neutrality with the Parshendi. But there's also no shortage of unambiguous bad guys, such as Odium, Moash, and the Punisher, to contrast with these more intermediate figures.

Ah yes, Leshwi! How could I forget? Another great character, though not as good as Raboniel, but who is happily not dead.

The way that I read this part, I didn't think the box was actually glowing. Shallan saw it glowing, but I thought that was some sort of trauma-induced hallucination. In WoR it says something like, "How could they not see the box glowing? It was blinding to her." If the glow is blindingly bright, then I would imagine people would be able to see it. So the fact that Shallan sees a glow is because she's haunted by guilt, and by the memory of the glowing sword that killed her mother - that's what I understood. And her father glancing up at the box doesn't necessarily imply he saw it glowing. I concede I could be wrong about this, but it does seem strange that Shallan would see it glowing when other people would not, if it was indeed glowing.

So I've been skeptical of Sylladin in the past, but aside from being more strongly suggested in this book than in any of the others (the amount of time they spend together, their shared mental trauma, the lack of other romantic prospects for Kaladin), I'm actually starting to think it might also make sense from a character development perspective for Syl. Throughout all of RoW she's fascinated with humans and is constantly becoming more humanlike, which is part of an ongoing theme across this book that spren are more like humans than they would like to admit. Syl is also terrified of Kaladin's death, and she's terrified of her own immortality as well (thoughts on mortality have been an ongoing theme for Syl since WoK, if I remember). So it might make total sense if for Syl's character arc, she ended up essentially becoming human, becoming mortal, à la Arwen. And in such a scenario, a romantic relationship with Kaladin makes a lot sense. This raises another question which I'm sure has been discussed elsewhere - can humans and spren reproduce? My guess would be no, but I had the thought during this book that that might be the origin of the Horneater ability to see all spren - because somewhere in their genealogy, they have a human-spren ancestor. And if humans and spren can't reproduce (again, I'm sure this has been addressed elsewhere), what about spren and spren? I remember Syl saying something about being "created" by the Stormfather, but then Notum mentions in RoW that his father is a deadeye, which makes me wonder exactly how their parentage works.

All right, so I just finished RoW and I'm still sort of digesting everything, but something I wanted to express right away was how good the characters are in this book. Sanderson is often good with characters, and he himself has said that it should practically always be the most important element of a story, so it wasn't really a big surprise. But I just found myself so supremely pleased with the character arcs in RoW, especially in comparison to OB (in which Dalinar was the only real highlight for me) that I had to say something about the following people: Navani/Raboniel - I did not expect so much of Navani in this book (I'm sure I'm not alone there), by my goodness, did I love her chapters and her characterization. And the character of Raboniel was just so excellent, so utterly fascinating - I'm not sure I've ever seen an antagonist like her before, and the fact that she made such an impression on me despite only appearing in this book is quite something. The scenes with Navani and Raboniel were some of the most transfixing character work I've ever seen from Sanderson - their tense cooperation, their subterfuge, Navani's feverish scientific discoveries, their singing of the tones of Roshar, the murder of Raboniel's daughter - it was all just so good, probably the best part of the entire book for me. And when Navani bonds the Sibling and sends Moash fleeing in a beam of light, that was honestly one of the coolest Stormlight moments I've seen - rivaling Bridge Four's rescue of Dalinar in WoK, or Dalinar's showdown with Odium in OB. And the Navani/Raboniel relationship was made even better because of its profound implications for the Stormlight series - the discovery of anti-Light, humans hearing the tones of Roshar, the coexistence of humans and singers. The only thing that could have improved it, I think, would be if Navani had some connection to music or singing prior to this book. Shallan - I'm not sure if I really like Shallan as a character, but I'm fascinated by her, which is probably better anyways. I think she's very well-crafted, very well-written - the way that Sanderson blends such dark, personal undertones beneath her seemingly cliché, perky exterior just draws you in, makes you confused by her and annoyed by her, but also transfixed at the same time - I always find myself looking forward to her chapters the most. Her character arc in this book was good, I thought, really good, much better than it was in OB, and the split personalities finally made sense (up till now they've really bothered me). The thing about Shallan is that she kind of defies description, which is all the more amazing considering how stereotypical she seems at times - the bubbly girl, the quirky girl, who despite often being basically an archetype of any number of female characters in Sanderson, and despite lacking any of the calculated intrigue and the coldness of Jasnah, is somehow even more elusive and more fascinating. Taravangian - I am really delighted by this one - as early as WoK, I've been fascinated by Taravangian and have gobbled every morsel we've been given of him. He's such a good character - so complex and interesting, and so deserving of the attention he'll surely be given from this point on. I was quite disappointed early in the book when Taravangian had basically given up, resigning himself to saving Kharbranth and facing execution, so you can imagine my excitement with what happened later. I also think this is a really brilliant move to make from a storytelling perspective since Odium is a good villain, yes, but I've often found Rayse to be lacking, and it was one of the main reasons I was slightly disappointed by OB. But Taravangian in that role? There's no one better I can think of, and having a really good villain usually translates into having a really good story. Plus it's so exciting to think of the implications of this development further on - the excellent contrast of Dalinar and Taravangian, the collision course the two of them are on, and its ramifications for the cosmere. Venli - I was very shocked by Sanderson's decision to kill Eshonai and have Venli take her place, and that shock has kind of carried on throughout OB and most of RoW, as I constantly asked, "Why? Why did he make this choice?" I have fantasies of writing books someday and doing random things - just randomly killing a character, because not every death and action has to have a reason - random things happen in everyday life all the time. But I wouldn't expect such random, shock-value deaths from Sanderson, which is what the death of Eshonai felt like to me, and I was astonished at his boldness for going through with it. But RoW justifies the decision so perfectly, and sets up such a satisfying character arc for Venli - I love how she's detached from both humans and singers, how she has such complicated strengths which are just as easily weaknesses, and how she, in the end, was the right person for Timbre to bond. You'll notice most of my opinions here are just sort of vague and adulatory - I'm sort of in a honeymoon phase right now where I'm just so pleased with RoW, and so pleased that it was better than OB, that all I can say is, "That part was so cool! Oh, and that part was so cool!" Hahaha. Despite my excitement, however, I've purposefully excluded [Support] from the title, because it's totally all right for people to disagree with me and express their opinions - I promise you won't hurt my feelings. I'd love to hear what characters you were satisfied with in RoW, and which you ones you weren't satisfied with, and whether you agree with my assessment of the characters I've listed here!

This is really cool! My favorite part is that you have [d͡ʒ] pronounced as [j] in the lighteyed dialect - that totally settles the Jasnah/Yasnah debate!

Great WoB @Calderis, thanks! A lot to think about here. Perhaps Autonomy is able to maintain some degree of control over her avatars, but not total control, which is why her relationship with them is "complex," as Brandon says. Maybe she forms the avatars to hold her same ambitions and goals, but they have slightly unique and individual personalities, and so they could potentially disagree with her or go rogue in an extreme case. As far as his long quote where he talks about Shards traveling and the way that Investiture is associated with different Shards, I find it really fascinating - it doesn't bother me that he goes off-subject. I definitely want to learn more about everything he says there, particularly the stuff about the Spiritual Realm since we know the least about it of the the three realms and no character has ever seen it before.

Oh yes, I'd forgotten that.

Just a brief observation, I wanted to see if anyone else has noticed the same thing. For being such an artsy and creative person, Shallan sure is not very creative when it comes to naming things. This has happened three times: Pattern Veil Radiant All of these names are just bland descriptions of what she is naming. Pattern is a swirling black pattern, Veil is a secretive thief-like spy (like a person wearing a veil), and Radiant is a stately and dignified aristocrat-swordsman (like a Knight Radiant). Now I am not sure what else Shallan could have named these things... but for someone who is so artistic and creative (left-brained, isn't that what that's called... or is it right-brained?), these seem like pretty boring and obvious choices. At least Pattern, I think, she could have given a more creative name. And as a sidenote, why doesn't Pattern have a name of his own? Kaladin doesn't name Syl - her name is Sylphrena, and the same is true of all the other spren we've seen, I think, so it seems a bit strange that Pattern doesn't have his own name (or maybe he just hasn't shared it with Shallan or doesn't remember it yet).

I like this idea, especially because it might help to explain why Brandon is so fond of Bavadain. A master-manipulator of the cosmere who is slowly expanding their influence and leading up to a grand plan or objective in the future surely must be a fun character to envision and write. I have frequently thought that Odium might be unexpectedly defeated early, killed just within the Stormlight books, and that the real major villain of the cosmere will then turn out to be Autonomy. Bavadain's motivations are much more mysterious and complicated than Rayes's, I think, and she is much less purely evil - I can see her becoming a sort of antihero villain who features prominently near the end of the cosmere, and pulls together threads from all the earlier books. I had a quick question about this. I find it very interesting that the Perpendicularity on First of the Sun exists because the influence of one of Autonomy's avatars - where did we learn this?

The OP has a lot of great stuff and I find it really interesting - I just want to focus on this one part though. You are right, we don't know exactly know the reason for Dominion and Devotion's proximity. However, I personally have always thought that Dominion and Devotion represent two different types of love. Dominion is protecting someone and holding them within your responsibility, while Devotion is loyalty and compassion for someone. By themselves, they are incomplete - Dominion by itself is about abusive control and authority, and Devotion is about obsessive adoration for someone without any regard for self. A person could become so consumed by Dominion that that they disregard the needs of the person they are protecting and care only about themselves. A person could also become so consumed by Devotion that they disregard their own needs and care only about the person they love, supporting them no matter what even if it isn't in their own best interests or if the relationship is dangerous. They are both unhealthy forms of love, but when combined they create a balance. When you have equal parts Dominion and Devotion, you will care about your own needs without subjugating and disregarding the person you love, and you will also care about their needs without losing yourself in blind infatuation. Maybe that's a bit far-fetched, but it makes sense to me. I suppose that Dominion and Devotion could have just joined together randomly, or maybe they knew each other before the Shattering. There doesn't necessarily have to be a synergy between two Shards - I can't think of one that exists between Cultivation and Honor for example, but it's still interesting to try and find one.

@LtGrimes618, just to let you know I decided to stop by a bookstore and purchase Red Sister by Mark Lawrence at your suggestion, because I've been looking for a good book to read. I'm a few chapters into the book and it's very excellent - the writing is great and I really love the characters and the premise. To anyone else who is looking for a good book I second the motion, Red Sister is a great option, and I'm looking forward to reading Grey Sister once I'm done!

@LtGrimes618 thanks for posting this, I think this is a fun thing to discuss. After I finished Oathbringer I read Soleri by Michael Johnston, and A Wizard of Earthsea by Ursula K. Le Guin. A Wizard of Earthsea is a classic pillar of fantasy, and I thought that the writing was just beautiful and it's a relatively quick read, so I highly recommend it. If anyone has read The Kingkiller Chronicles by Patrick Rothfuss, there are many inspirations that I am pretty sure he draws from A Wizard of Earthsea (although maybe that's just my speculation). As for Soleri, it's written by a debut author and I found it to be readable for the most part and very intriguing - I would probably buy a sequel if they release one. The best thing about the book, I thought, was the imagery and the setting - it's set in a very sparse, dry, Egyptian-style fantasy world, which I found to be very interesting and different. I didn't love the book though, and the writing was definitely clunkier than Sanderson or a lot of other great authors, but that's probably just because it's his first book. But I have kind of exacting standards when it comes to the quality of books, and so maybe other people would enjoy the writing more! Currently I am reading The Shadow of What Was Lost by James Islington, another debut author. I bought the book because it said on the back that "fans of Sanderson will have much to admire." I'm only about ten chapters into the book but I'm starting to lose interest - it's a pretty heavy volume, and I am struggling with the writing style and the thin characterization. Plus the protagonist is like 16 years old, which is fine I suppose, but I prefer it when the main character is a bit older, just so the story is less immature. I don't know if I'm going to finish the book, so I'm open to suggestions to fill my time before the next Sanderson comes out! I have not read Grey Sister by Mark Lawrence, but maybe I'll take a look at it, it sounds interesting!

I recently made two polls asking people how they pronounce names from Stormlight, and someone suggested that the name "Adolin" be included on the next poll. So here is another poll with some new names including Adolin - I'm interested to see how people pronounce them!