Diomedes

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  1. You said "Adolin did nothing wrong". That is an ethical statement that has nothing to do with alethi legal systems and everything with your moral evaluation. Or you do it like Gavilar and play the game of politics. That involves lying.
  2. That is a discussion worthy of its own thread. Let me just say: Lying once is immoral but murdering somebody is not? Either the ends justify the means or they don`t. Kadash was comparing Dalinar to Jasnah, and Dalinar agreed. So yes he is a bit like Jasnah. He does not believe in god "without question" he wants proof. As I noted previously I don`t see any evidence that the church does actually believe that just sitting and waiting for the herald does solve all problems. We are indeed going in circles here. This is not how politics work. You just murder your enemies and everything will be fine. Sadeas was operating on a power base, that was still around after he had been murdered. Other guys like Amaram and Ialai merely took his place. If they had been murdered others would step up. You don`t win until you deprieve the base of its power. Besides every kind of crime can be justified with "another one would have done it." I think this line of thinking is deeply problematic. To put it differently what is the worst thing Sadeas could have done? a) bring his House under the control of Odium. Exactly that did happen. b.) bring all non Kholin loyalist Houses under the control of Odium. This is about to happen. @Steel Inqusitive"I'm confused. Are the ardents warriors? I thought they were priests/scholars. As such, what exactly are you thinking they are going to do?" The Ardents are a powerful group in Alethkar. Not every kind of power is military power. This is why military coup d`etats are not always succesful. They lack the legitimacy bestowed upon them by traditional, legal or charismatic forces. The ardents are a hugly important source for legitimacy of power. If Dalinar`s rule lacks legitimacy nobody is going to follow his orders. They can also directly influence people to act against Dalinar. I think the ardents played a huge role in turning Amaram. As I have noted peviously.
  3. Sadeas was assassinated by Adolin, who could not contain his rage. Not because the rules of the game changed. Sadeas miscalculated what kind of man Adolin was and died because of it. He is openly questioning the existance of the Almighty, like Jasnah : I does not need to go about this the way he does. He could say: I know deep in my heart the Almighty exists but the story that we have been telling ourselves is proably not true. I know we as readers are cheering for Dalinar because Jasnah is cool and now Dalinar is like Jasnah. But you can`t declare war on the Vorin church during the Apocalypse. He can`t afford that fight right now.
  4. Not if they expect to be mislead in this regard. Saying you believe in God, while actually you probably don`t, is the unspoken rule of Alethi high society. Saying outright you deny the existance of god is a declaration of war to the Vorin church. That could have been avoided by saying you still believe in the Almighty, he just changed. That is what he meant by "dying". If you want to win a game you have to play by its rules.
  5. Why? Is lying always a bad thing? I think the world is more complicated than that. Sometimes compromises have to be made. Are parents immoral for telling their children that Santa At the end of WoK Dalinar resolves to treat the Alethi like children, and children don`t always deserve the full brutal truth.
  6. No they were not asking him to accept the Almighty as all-powerful etc., they are not expecting for somebody to save them. I`d like you to read chapter 16 of OB from Kadash`s perspective. He is in Dalinar`s eyes and Dalinar manages to horrify even him. Kadash does not ask him to accept all of Vorin teachings or that the Almighty is going to come and save everybody. The book never says that the ardents believe that! Kadash merely asks The only thing Dalinar needs to do is saying that he does not believe in the doctrin of omnipotence he does not believe that the Almighty is going to save everyone, but he does believe in his existance. This is btw. true, since shards like spren technically never die, they just transition between different planes of existance. The book never states that the ardents would be that foolhardy. They would say: Oh look a desolation is here. Apperantly the Almighty does not deem us worthy of defending. Let us rally around the Knights Radiant, who can. Maybe we will be worthy again in the future. Dalinar`s attempts have been barely sucessfull, as I tried to show in this thread partly because the ardents are opposing him and his cause. The two are linked. We do not yet know of their machinations against his cause, but I have no doubts that they are there. Maybe they played a crucial role in convincing Amaram to betray Dalinar. This happens off screen, but it would be very likely that the religious zealot Amaram, who wants to restore the power of the Vorin church to its full glory, would listen to the ardents. Well, by claiming he merely changed, which is somewhat true. A skilled politician makes sure he persuades people to his side, not give them good reasons to become his bitter enemies. How would such a thing come out? I guess that many Highprinces do not actually believe in the Almighty. They just claim they are that everybody is happy. This is the solemn arrangment of Alethi high society. You give the ardents what they want and they let you do whatever you want. Dalinar broke that arrangement, because he can`t bring himself to tell a single lie. This hinges on the assumption that Odium`s chances of winning decreace drastically in the next book. I don`t see that happening. He might change sides in later books. In the next book he is Odium`s servant. This is all that matters for my prediction.
  7. aehm, why are you so confident in an unshakable will for Honor in Adolin? This is bit of an off topic discussion. So maybe we should revert to a new thread? If Shallan changes for Odium, then Adolin can too. I think both is unlikely.
  8. I do not even see a 10% chance arising in the next book. He made this deal because he knows how desperate their situation is.
  9. That would mean breaking the pact. He would not do that until he is absolutly certain Odium will be defeated, if he joins Team Honor. I do not see any situation like that arise in the next book or maybe ever. For all practical intents and purposes he is fully on Odium`s side for now and will abide his command. @CalderisThis is probably true except for the last crucial part: We do not know who will win in the end. T. being the Diagram could have seen that this scenario is the best one he could hope for so he should persue it. That does not mean Odium losing, only him winning in the best way that the Diagram could see. Regardless he has sworn to serve Odium for now, which means he will betray Dalinar.
  10. I disagree. He needs to understand the past in order to face the future. Could he not tell a single lie by saying he belives the Almighty is there somewhere beyond the stars? That he believes Honor transitioned to a different mode of existance? That this was what Honor meant by "dying". This is the only thing Kadash asks of him: Not to deny the existance of the Almighty. But that would be to much for Dalinar Kholin. Them being nipped in the bud is pushing them towards Odium. As is said in the thread: "He tells the Ardents that their entire lives have been lies and their entire power has no legitimacy. What does he expect they are going to do? Just shrug and walk away from prestige, truth and power? He is practically forcing them to become his enemies." Them being on Odium`s side is not helping anyone. Of course his skills as a politicians are relevant! Any politician with an inch of skill would not claim to be an outright Heretic. Publishing the visions is OK, saying everything in there is true is also OK. Supporting an interpretation that says the Almighty does not exist anymore is just foolhardy. He did not ask to "stay out of the way", he asked for the Diagram to be his servant: "The Diagram will serve you, in exchange for the preservation of my people." That is the text of the agreement. Odium goes on then to give T. orders and he obeys them. How is this not being 100% on Odium`s side?
  11. Is it necessary to claim the Almighty is dead to refound the KR? I do not think so. As for Dalinar`s political skills, we had a thread here, that devolved into discussions on the Ardents, @Calderis "As the Heralds show, a human cannot be bound by an oath in the same manner as a Shard. I fully believe that Odium is bound to his word, just as he is bound to the trial of champions that forced him to make his pact with Taravangian. T is in no way bound similarly. That's the whole point of the Diagram in my opinion." He might not be bound as Odium is, but he is bound to a certain degree. "The Diagram will serve you, in exchange for the preservation of my people." That is the text of the agreement. Odium goes on then to give T. orders and he obeys them. How is this not being 100% on Odium`s side? I would like to see your explantion. I guess you wrote a theory somewhere. Could you send me a link? The Heralds are immortal and have a lot of Investment of Honor. They are hardly a good comparison to the deal with Odium. Besides a good chunk of their souls were destroyed by breaking the pact.
  12. Yes, let`s not do that. However, Pattern seems to be pretty certain that Shallan will kill him. He should have good reasons. I assumed this would last only for a few hours as it was in Kaladin`s case. But it could also be true that Shallan changes to Team Odium. If that happens, then Adolin should change sides too. The whitespine uncaged and the mad girl against Team Honor.
  13. No we havn`t. We see him doing lots of stupid stuff in OB: He antagonizes the ardents without a clear (political) reason. He pushes Amaram and Sadeas soldiers to Odium by thinking they will just follow his orders. The Princes would betray the Kholins by defecting to Ialai. Why Ialai? Because she is a capable sceamer and the only major survivor of House Sadeas. Why not Taravangian? He is king of Jah Keved already. Yet, he is of course a possible contender for the throne. "but I don't see Taravangian going Full Odium (never go Full Odium)" He is already full Odium because he is bound by oath to him. At least that is how I understood that scene near the end of OB. Think of it as a variation on the same theme. There would be major differences. the role of Odium , the Fused, the masses of Parshmen, the involvement of Jasnah. It would rhyme rather than repeat. Symmetries are a big thing in SA.
  14. In this theory I predict that the arc of the next installment of SA will resemble the arc of the Way of Kings: Dalinar trusts people he should not have have trusted and makes blatant political mistakes he should not have made. This will result in him and House Kholin getting betrayed in the last act, just like in Way of Kings. This time the fate of Roshar will be at stake. A lot of people are upset with the Kholins. The Vorin church despises Dalinar and Queen Jasnah for being heretics. They have every reason for betraying him. The Kholins have secured the loyalty of only a few Houses: Aladar, Roion and Sebarial who fought with them at the end of WoR. But they are weakened by those fights as is House Kholin. The other princedoms are at full strength. We do not hear much about these guys in OB, because Dalinar shut them out of power. It used to be that all Highprinces discussed matters. In OB it is Dalinar who gives orders and they are supposed to follow them. We hear Dalinar keeps them in line by controlling the resources of Urithiru. I am certain they do not like to be shut out from power and being treated like “servants”. They will look for alternatives and find Ialai Sadeas and subsequently Odium. They will hail her as the new Queen and join Team Odium. Don`t forget the Ardents who will influence people to betray Dalinar. I argued here that a majority of Ardents constitute a cult of Odium already because they do not care about Honor: https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/81893-a-cult-of-odium/. Most of Alethi high society does not care about Honor, which is the thing that got me thinking in this direction. They care about victory, the game, the thrill of battle. These values are closely tied to Odium. They value the destination not the journey. Taravangian should also play an important role. He is bound to Odium. He is in a perfect position to betray Dalinar in a key moment. I imagine a big battle at the end of the next book. Dalinar will be forced to rely on the soldiers of these guys. They will betray Dalinar by joining the other side and leave the fate of Roshar in the hands of Odium. But there is a catch! I imagine some Parshendi to play the part of Bridge Four in WoK and save Team Honor from total destruction. Venli might play the part of Kaladin persuading them to help Team Honor.
  15. Shallan`s family might be an exception. I got the impression that mainstream Vorinism is pretty corrupted, regardless weather this concerns high society or not. Our closest view of rural Vorinism would be at Hearthstone. There is not even an Ardent in town as far as I can remember it. There are exceptions of course like Kadash (Dalinar`s ardent). But on the whole the situation seems to resemble that of the catholic church of the 15th century.