wotbibliophile

Kaladin's depression made me really depressed. As usual I wish Dalinar would be hit by a meteor and I never have to read about him again. Dalinar just keeps getting worse and worse. "I'm Dalinar. Slaves good. Considering other peoples opinions bad." Didn't really like the Shadesmar section. Maya was good. Pretty much everyone else was boring to me. I agree with some other people that this book didn't have humor or high points and it really needed it.

I now love Tay. I was already a fan because this thread. But disliking Dalinar? That is where I live. Yes! @Goatbringer You are the man! I also really love Canadian jokes.

Kaladin and Leshwi have my support. I agree with @Kaladin Is a Hero I hope the malen body doesn't matter to Kaladin. Reading about how often Leshwi came to Kaladin's defense I do think there are some feelings on her part. More than respectful feelings.

1-3) Kaladin 8 and 9) Kaladin 4) Shallan and Cultivation 5) This is hard. Syl, Lift and Wyndle together, and Design. 6) Dalinar 7) Hmmm. Can't think of anyone so Steris. She is my role model. I admire her more than just about anyone. 10) Renarin

I think "I'm terrified" is one of her truths and she is on her 4th ideal. Like this. For whatever reason killing her spren was not her 5th ideal. She has not said her 5th ideal. My proof: she still does not have her shardplate. I expect that to be an awesome moment. It better be awesome Sanderson!

I am very against bonding a spren by force. I agree Dalinar, Navani, and Ishar are the same. Equally gross. @StanLemon We know spren can change through a bond. It would be way more awesome if the spren chose first. 2 willing partners is the only thing that makes that growth and change awesome. For the spren and for the human/singer/listener. Coercion just makes me want to stab someone (to be clear: someone fictional. I'm looking at you Dalinar ). The Sibling had the "choice" between bonding Navani and dying. I think by the end of the book the Sibling is making the best of the situation they are in. When the Sibling said Navani was not worthy, that stuck with me. That was enough for me to be against this bond. This is not a judgement on whether or not Navani is worthy. This is about the Sibling. Since it is a bond with the Sibling the Sibling should be able to veto whoever they want. I don't care if the reason is the person eats chickens. It's enough if the Sibling is against it.

@Truthwatcher at the Rim You have to wonder if she would be as much fun if she had bonded Elhokar. I think maybe not. Wit makes a good contrast.

Chiri-Chiri was my favorite chapter. Rabonial. I don't see her as a villain. She is the only one who wants to end the war. Everyone else just wants to win. She listens to others, she respects others, she changes her mind. I love her. Design. literal monster for the win!

@MyrmidonOfAchilles Thank you so much for speaking for the Sibling. I feel a lot more for the Sibling than I do for Navani. I was rooting for Rlain (or Dabbid). When he was turned away I still hoped he would get to Sibling in time. I actually really dislike how Dalinar treats the Stormfather as well. He forced a bond on the Stormfather at the end of WoR. This is terrible to me. What is with bondsmiths? They all seem to be able to coerce spren. I disaprove.

I think part of my problem with how he ended up saying the 4th oath is my deep, deep dislike of Dalinar. I don't feel the same way. I loved the scene with Noril. It was wonderful, but I would love to read more of Kaladin as he was in WoK. I do not get tired of it. I just want more and more and other characters (such as Dalinar) can just disappear and I will like the book more.

@Mistborn Surgebinder I don't hate Moash. I'm sad and disappointed. I now think it is unlikely he will get a redemption arc.

I also like Adolin and Maya. I do feel he was getting dressed up for her. He was stressing about it. Otherwise he gets dressed up for himself he doesn't get dressed up for Shallan.

I agree with a lot of what @Subvisual Haze is saying. Kaladin is my favorite because of how inspiring he is. For the entire book Kaladin still manages to fight by the skin of his teeth but he is so depressed and so broken by the pressure on him that I was very sad reading his parts. I didn't feel my usual awe. I hope going forward Kaladin is able to stand on his feet more and not fall to his knees/blackout so much. @Starla has a great point that Kaladin reacts to be there for people who need him. I love this about him. I love reading about this. I just don't want to read about Kaladin being in horrific pain as he forces himself to react. He was tearing himself apart and it was tearing me apart. @Topgoon helped me understand how I was feeling about the 4th oath. If it had just been Kaladin and Syl I think I would have liked it more. Like when Kaladin almost committed suicide at the chasms it was just Kaladin and Syl and his decision to try again was powerful. Instead it was mostly Dalinar and strangely Tien. Tien is dead and I would expect him to not contribute more to the story. I thought he went beyond so that not even a connection could bring him back. Like @Topgoon I think if there had been more signs that the many people trying to get Kaladin to see he didn't need to save everyone and to take pride in what he had accomplished had been having an effect before he decided to commit suicide I would have gotten more behind his acceptance of the 4th oath. Instead throughout the book Kaladin is sliding further downward until he finally gives up. Lastly, I expected Kaladin to give up and I expected him to decide he didn't want to die, accept the 4th oath and that there would be great drama. But the drama I really wanted to see was Kaladin falls, makes a different decision, says the 4th oath, turns around, flies, and shoves that in Moash's face.

Raboniel and her daughter were the most emotionally impactful part of RoW for me. Those scenes actually made me pause. Everything else I just rushed through.

I liked RoW. The Stormlight books for me are 1st WoK 2nd WoR 3th RoW 4th Dead Last Oathbringer Oathbringer is going to be the Worst Book for a long time. Positives - Surprisingly I liked Venli. Usually I have no patience for very selfish people but I liked Venli. Maybe it was that in this book I only saw her trying to be better. It just worked for me. I think she may have been my favorite character arc of the book. - I liked that the flashbacks were greatly reduced. We had 2 entire books with no flashbacks. I hope that continues with Szeth. I have never liked the flashbacks. They always take me out of the story and I’m like no please continue with the current timeline. The current timeline is all I care about. - Raboniel was excellent. I kind of accept that she is dead because it is what she wanted and she was very tired. But I would have liked if she had lived and I could keep reading about her. - Leshwi was really good. Wish I could have read more of her. - Rlain was excellent. When Rlain completely disappeared from Oathbringer I consoled myself by telling myself he would have a big part in a book about the listeners/singers. I thought Sanderson was saving him. Sadly Rlain’s part was pretty small. I wish it had been bigger, but what was there was really good. - Dabbid was wonderful. I liked how Navani immediately revised her assumptions when she learned Dabbid was Bridge Four. Bridge Four = The Good Guys. - Chiri-Chiri’s chapter may have been my favorite chapter of the book. It made me soo happy. - Lift was great. I only wish she hadn’t disappeared from the book. Lift might be the one exception when it comes to flashbacks. I’ll always want to read more of her. Edit: Maya! How did I forget? Maya and the deadspren possibly being revived was huge. Mixed - Kaladin’s part was really hard to read. Kaladin is my favorite character. Kaladin is my hero. - In Oathbringer, I loved every Kaladin part. From beginning to end it was all good. In RoW, there were some Kaladin parts I did not enjoy which I did not think was possible. It was tough to read. - Perfect Adolin is perfect. This bothers me a little. - I’ve never felt strongly about Navani and that continues even in this book where she is so central. I was hoping Rlain or Dabbid would bond the Sibling. Navani becoming the bondsmith is a little disappointing. I strongly support the spren making their own choice. I don’t really buy Navani’s argument that she and the sibling represent compromise or cooperation. The Sibling saying Navani is not worthy is enough for me to be against this bonding. Look at Syl who chose exactly who she wanted. They make a really strong pairing. Two willing partners is the best. The whole “I’m going to die unless I bond this person I don’t approve of” is not satisfying for me. - Shallan’s resolution regarding forgotten memories, Formless, and integrating Veil. This did not land for me. I thought it was empty. I needed more about her childhood I think. Someone upthread said Shallan’s arc needed more context and I agree. I have trouble follow what is going on with her. How is it possible she was talking to Adolin about killing her parents but withheld stealing from Jasnah and involvement with ghostbloods? I am very confused. She thinks Adolin is going to up and run with what she’s held back when he’s okay with her murdering family? This is one of those times Sanderson solves a problem with a single sentence and then ignores it going forward, but I think it needed a lot more. It just did not make sense to me. The whole thing was just not very emotional and I am still not clear on if she has forgiven herself. Forgiving herself was the goal I thought. Using a cube as a child was also never explained. Very annoying. - Eshonai is dead. Kaladin is my hero. Eshonai is my hero. These two are my favorite characters. Very sad Eshonai is gone. Still would have preferred her to Venli. - Odium is underwhelming. This continues from Oathbringer so I expected it and did not have strong feelings about it. In Oathbringer, I was devasted that Odium turned out to be a wimp. It is part of the reason I dislike Oathbringer. Negatives - Dalinar - Szeth - Dalinar and Szeth both had small parts in the book. It was still waay too much. Best case scenario: Dalinar dies before the 10 days are up, every character gets amnesia and is like “Dalinar? I’ve never known anyone named Dalinar” And I never have to read about him again. 2nd best scenario: Dalinar dies and becomes a Fused. Unfortunately, in this case I will still have to read about him. Worst case scenario: I have to read about Dalinar (and Szeth). - Adolin being the only one to make sure Kaladin is with people when he needs to be. Damn, Bride Four where are you? How could you let my man down? - Adolin and Shallan’s relationship. This is like Odium being underwhelming. It continues from Oathbringer and it is what I expected but it is still horrible. - Veil saying she was glad she was outvoted to Adolin. This made me laugh and broke my heart. If only the voting system had been in effect way back when Shallan would not have married Adolin. Veil was not outvoted; Shallan was. Finally, I’ll say I do not trust Sanderson with characters. He’ll shove his characters into any configuration to fit his plot. It does not have to make sense or be consistent. My favorite part of books is character interactions and Sanderson seems to want to avoid these interactions. Sanderson and I do not agree on what is good. Since I did like RoW I will read book 5, but with Kaladin taking a back seat with books 6-10 I’m not sure I will read them. Kaladin pulls me through all the things I don’t like so I’ll have to make a decision after book 5. Edit: One more thing in the mixed section. I was disappointed Kaladin did not confront Moash one more time. Every time they have had a confrontation Kaladin had been defeated so I wanted to see Kaladin confront Moash at the end and stand tall. Maybe it even could have affected Moash for the better.

I think that is quite harsh. I didn't think she was the villain. I thought Venli was the villain. Eshonai was enslaved.

I agree with this. But I think she pushed Kaladin toward Shallan so hard because she knew he had feelings for her. I think from the scene with the ardent (so the beginning of the book) all the way to the end of the book (when Shallan and Adolin are ready to get married) Syl was pushing Kaladin toward Shallan. That's a long time and a lot of consistency. There was also the scene where Kaladin thinks his feelings are ganging up on him, telling him Tarah was right to leave him and he doesn't deserve love which I think supports @SLNC's point. Kaladin felt unworthy of Tarah and Shallan. Jasnah is almost the only available woman in Kaladin's sphere. They would be okay, but I don't really want them to be a couple. I don't like Jasnah. I used to like her a lot in WOK but the more I read about her the more callous she seems. She is too trigger happy for me.

I think Shallan likes manipulating Adolin. [I'm thinking of when Shallan was relieved Adolin hadn't figured out her manipulation to get onto the Shattered Plains and her reaction to Dalinar when he learned she was a Radiant "But how will I fool people?"] Adolin is worried about her pretending to be other people and wants to help her. Shallan says she will work on it. But instead, Veil and Adolin become drinking buddies. And Shallan makes the note that they haven't been intimate yet. That sounds like a plan to keep Veil and a plan to make Adolin do things her way. I don't think Adolin is capable of standing his ground with Shallan. I think Shallan is happy that she can get Adolin to do whatever she wants. She got him to pretend Veil and Radiant are real and different people than her. As if she wasn't the person directing their every move. I agree she has severe mental issues. I think she has trouble recognizing reality. Like when she wasn't sure her brothers were alive. She thought she might have imagined the spanreed conversations they had. I think not being able to recognize reality is a spectacular reason to not get married. I was going to bring up Kaladin to try to keep this on topic, but I thought of more Shallan stuff. Shallan wants Adolin to see her a certain way. She talks about how she is always hiding how broken she is. She considers making Radiant his wife. She is relieved he doesn't see her drawing of Kaladin. And most important: She doesn't tell him about how she grew up. This says to me that she does not trust him. (I mean, what if he didn't want to marry her if he knew? This is what I think is running through Shallan's mind. I certainly think it is possible Adolin would want to marry her. I just don't think Shallan believes it.) Finally, Kaladin is the best. Whoever he ends up with will like flying and they will fly together. That knocks Adolin out of contention. Shallan is still in!

I didn't cheer. I thought it was quite sad, but I didn't hate Moash for killing Elhokar. I thought he could still be a good guy and rejoin Bridge 4 up until Moash killed Jezrien. Then I was sad for Moash and the probability he would never rejoin Bridge 4. I certainly like Moash a lot more than Dalinar.

When did Moash save Kaladin's life? Is it something that happened directly or indirectly?

I was so surprised by the deaths in OB that I still feel disbelief. Eshonai and all Kaladin's friends and Elhokar in Kholinar. I am holding out hope that Eshonai makes a comeback. I don't care how contrived it is. There have been lots of undead characters of characters I do not like. To balance the scales, Eshonai should become undead because I like her.

I dislike Shallan and Adolin because Shallan is constantly lying to him. Even when she's trying to be honest, she is so out of touch with reality that she ends up lying. Like saying Veil is interested in Kaladin when in fact Veil doesn't exist. Only Shallan is real. I'm glad someone else doubted that Adolin knows Shallan. I keep trying to think of what he knows about her, but really she does her best to hide from him and everyone. Kaladin doesn't know Shallan that well, but she is more honest with him. She told him about how she grew up. She is courting Adolin and he still has no idea. What did they talk about? How did they get to know each other? She's married to him and I wonder if he knows her brothers names. Her brothers made it to the wedding so he should, but I doubt she ever talked about them. This is very disturbing to me. I think we agree that Shallan is a mess. But her mess is hers. It is not up to Adolin or Wit or anyone to tell Shallan who she is. It is up to Shallan. Anyway, I strongly disagree that Adolin recognizes true Shallan. He knows what she looks like. What about her fight with the unmade in Urithiru? She talks about how she hates being thought of as clever. I thought that was more honest than how she behaves around Adolin. What about what Sanderson said about Shallan's temper? Sanderson thought that was more true to Shallan. I don't think that is something Adolin would recognize. @Calderis You brought up reality. I'm reading a fantasy and reality is not a priority for me. My priority is consistency. If a character starts out a certain way they need to keep on that way or the changes in the character need to be explained/understood. [For example, Kaladin hates lighteyes. His exposure to lighteyes who are honorable and kind is changing this. Done.] OB was missing a lot of that explanation. I felt characters were doing whatever Sanderson's outline needed them to do and it was quite confusing. I have tried hard to understand Shallan. I've failed. I believe, like Shallan says, that Shallan and Veil are equally false. They are a front she puts up because she is always hiding. She uses Shallan and Veil to achieve certain ends and to hide the pain she feels from others and herself. Shallan was made because her father insisted she be a proper Vorin girl and she needed to uplift her brothers. Veil was made so Shallan could pretend she never killed her mother (and possibly because Veil would not have loved her father? This last is something Sanderson said). I've gone on and on. I'll try to make this about Kaladin's love life. Um . . . I strongly believe Kaladin is ready for a relationship now. Some people have said he has stuff to figure out first. I disagree. He would make a great partner. I think Kaladin had (and still has) a crush on Shallan. He did not doubt that she was able to take care of herself. She went into the palace in Kholinar and Kaladin was fine being support even knowing this was a lethal situation. She ends up stabbed and nearly dead and Kaladin doesn't react like "you must never be in danger ever again. I shall protect you." Instead he makes a joke because he understands that is what she wants in that moment. I believe Kaladin needs a partner who is his equal. He sees Shallan as his equal (even his superior) and he is not over protective and he is not crippled into inaction. Also, anyone who doesn't understand his desire to protect bridge 4 and the time he will take to care for them is not worth his time. I like Kaladin and Adolin as a couple. I think they make good friends and I wouldn't be bothered if it became more, but I am sure Kaladin is straight. I think Adolin might have a crush on Kaladin. One last thing about love. Kaladin, Shallan, and Sanderson use the word love. From what I read, I never thought anyone in the triangle was in love with anyone else. I thought everybody was at the level of infatuation. Kind of swooning, but not a lot of depth.

I agree more with @Void89 than with @Winds Alight . I thought the ending was terrible. I don't see why I should believe Kaladin when he says he doesn't love her. He said all through OB that he wasn't interested, that Shallan and Adolin were together, and Syl kept pushing because he obviously was interested. He says she reminds him of Tien and that is something he already knew because he thought of it in the chasms. Its not new. It's the same old thing. Kaladin has a pattern. He could tell she had made a choice and since it wasn't him he said he wasn't interested in her anyway. And yeah he was calm about it. He was calm about it at the end of WOR, too. When he felt so rejected that she hadn't looked at him. He says the same thing. That they fit. Kaladin also said in OB he liked Shallan and Adolin, just not together. I am with him there. I like Shallan and Adolin, just not together. I also hated, no matter how brief, the little fight between Adolin and Shallan. At no time do I think Adolin ever thought of Shallan as his property or as someone he could put where ever he wanted. He says outright that he is trying to respect the choice she already made. Because of how she was acting, he believed she wanted to be with Kaladin. And, come on, two seconds ago she brushed him off to rush toward Kaladin so he had reason to think that. He was not far off. And I hated that Shallan said "He knows me." Adolin knowing what Shallan looks like has to be the worst basis for a relationship ever. If Sanderson wanted to give the impression that Adolin knew Shallan better than Kaladin, he could have set it up much better. I never had the impression that Adolin knew or understood Shallan very well. Her decision to be with him is immediately followed by her assuring him all the things he observed about her preferring Kaladin were wrong and really she wants to be with him. Her wanting to be with him is fine. Her deciding to be with him because he knows her then telling him he is all wrong about her is a painful contradiction. It left me very confused. My head was spinning, my eyes were crossing. TLDR: I found the conclusion of Kaladin/Adolin/Shallan to be unbelievable.

I don't agree. I wasn't annoyed with Lift in that scene. Of course, I really like Lift. But I don't think Dalinar was annoyed either. He was more surprised and confounded at her logic. The Stormfather was definitely annoyed though. Maybe that was Sanderson taking into account how some readers would react to Lift and her inappropriateness.

I really don't like Nale either. I certainly can't follow his reasoning whether he is an idiot or mad. I did like that Lift listened to him. It briefly seemed like he was turning a corner, but then . . . he was Nale.