Darvys

@Pathfinder This is utterly pointless, you only seem to read one sentence of every five i write and see it as an attack to then go on tirades trying to answer points i never made, and while i dismissed the undertone of you posts early on as unworthy of comment, it gets annoying rather quickly, i'm not here trying to argue against Jasnah's beliefs or statements, nor am i inclined to butt heads with people insisting on holding her as a standard for their own beliefs, i'm trying to further understand a character i enjoy reading about, you clearly can't help me with that, so as you said, no point dragging this on further.

Not guilty ? Only if you shift the blame to the effect of the Thrill, which he had little to no control over. Trying to use culture as a cope out though is a no no in my book, in spite of everything that helped shape you, responsibility still ultimately lies with you, culture and upbringing make his actions understandable but not forgivable, hundreds/thousands of innocents still died, Evi is only a small part of it and only relevant to him and his family. The point you make is applicable to any criminal in real life, hating or despising them is pointless and small-minded, but punishment is still required.

@Pathfinder Nice, now you give me reason to disagree. 1. It is not that the Almighty as defined by Vorinism is unworthy of worship, she was unwilling to worship a being whose existence cannot be proven (see your unknown unknowable quote). 5. Yes she doesn't deem any of the beings she knows of as worthy of worship, what does this tell me about her criteria ? Nothing, only that Shards (what little she knows of them) and heralds and spren and what have you all fall short. Does she even have criteria or is she simply content to dismantle other peoples' flimsy claims ? I don't know, you don't know. I want to know. Now i have no clue what i said that could have triggered this response, since you're not answering a single point i made. I'm not asking anything from anyone in this thread, i'm curious about a character's thoughts and beliefs which aren't presented in the books, Brandon says she's an atheist ? So ? Every atheist on planet earth and roshar has the same thought processes ?

@Pathfinder Ouch, you just nonchalantly dropped a book on my head there, Jasnah would like to have a word with you. Granted i've kinda been all over the place in my posts and talking in circles at points. Note though that in her discussion with Dalinar she doesn't deny the existence of God as you claim, she simply reiterates that Honor doesn't fit the bill, not her bill, but the one presented by the church and likely shared by Dalinar (otherwise claiming that Dalinar's conclusions were wise would make little sense). I went through the thread again, and there's actually nothing we disagree on, my confusion started when @Calderis said that you had quoted Jasnah's criteria, which wasn't really the case, since she only ever talks about what she deems unworthy of worship, never the opposite. And as to your point that she doesn't need to have criteria, it's true, but it would be helpful to know if she does or if she's on the "I'll know it when i see it" camp.

@Pathfinder I was talking about the quote itself, not anything you yourself said ^^. I think you misunderstood my first point though, i know Jasnah doesn't need to have a checklist ready for anything claiming to be God, i'm saying that the fact we don't know if she has that checklist or not makes this entire discussion silly, you quote her saying she didn't accept the Almighty as God, but doesn't that imply the Almighty (reminder, that quote was from before she knew of Shards and the true nature of Honor) comes short compared to what she defines as God ? As long we don't know what that definition is, there's no way to really answer the OP. @Calderis I see, so it was just a weird answer to Hoid's nonsensical assertion.

@Calderis Straightforward ? I was stumped by that quote the first time i read it, and i am stumped here again, if you could enlighten me, i'd appreciate it. @Pathfinder That section does little to clarify Jasnah's take on godhood, she simply states that Taravangian's assumption that morality derives from faith is unappealing. What kind of being would she accept as God ? No one knows. (I'll just ignore the last bits of the exchange, felt so childish, only there for dramatic effect)

You'd be hard pressed i think to find 10 "roles" that each kingdom could realistically claim to specialize in without some of them sounding foolish, it was probably just a matter of inclinations based on geographical location, the most obvious being Shinovar with it's sheltered and easily farmed land and Thaylenah as the naval powerhouse, other than that you'll have scholars aggregating here and there which could make for some interesting hubs but nothing on a scale that a Kingdom would derive its identity from it.

I find the discussion rather silly, since we don't know what Jasnah's criteria for recognizing an entity as God are, people are quick to assume she's sharing the common view of an all powerful all knowing thingy when the main religion on Roshar is centered around an entity that was powerless to stop its worshipers from getting their asses kicked out of heaven by creatures of unknown origin. For all we know, Jasnah could meet Cultivation tomorrow and decide for herself "Hm, works for me." and then start praying in front of trees or whatever, would anyone here be able to fault her ? Worship is a personal choice, and its focus doesn't have to make the unanimity. Jasnah isn't wrong to say Honor isn't God (by whatever definition she goes by) and Vorins in turn aren't wrong to say that he is (their facts being wrong is another story). She herself says she has nothing against people's faiths, she only objects to people trying to shove theirs down everyone else's throats, so please let's not start projecting our own disdain towards religions on a character who isn't portrayed to share it.

Since for now mortals on both sides are fighting over dirt ( and their right to be free / exist but who cares about that ), i'd probably just sit back and watch until we get a better understanding of Odium's motivations and goals, that's assuming i'm a world-hopper shilling on Roshar of course..

Fair point, i was careless with the terminology, but that has a lot to do with how many people seem to use the term "arranged" with the uglier connotation in mind. As far as i'm concerned as long as there's no compulsion ( and i count pressuring an individual who cannot bear it as compulsion ) there's no evil i can point to in arranged marriages, which is why the firm opposition of so many people to the concept in this thread and in general baffles me. My point being that i fail to see the wrongness in the particular case we're discussing. Yes, we can blame Jasnah for bringing the subject up to Navani first, but bear in mind that from Shallan's pov this betrothal was at first a way to ensure her siblings' safety, what good would it do to get her opinion on the matter ( getting her hopes up in the process ) before even verifying that the solution could be implemented ? I personally don't fault Jasnah for her handling of the mess she was dealt, and once again i have to point out that nothing was really done before Shallan gave her consent, so even Navani's excitement wasn't harmful in any way i can see, they didn't sign a contract, they didn't make an announcement, they just talked about it. The point about the additional pressure also falls flat to me since we can clearly see from the start that the couple wants the relationship to work for their own benefit, the fact that their respective families also stand to gain from the union shouldn't detract from that fact. And lastly, as painful as watching their earlier interactions knowing what went through Shallan's head was, that's about what i'd expect from two young people with close to nothing in common trying to find something to bond over ( because i repeat they both want the relationship to work for their own benefit ), it's far from the ideal love story, but it's even farther from the contrived picture some people here seem to think Brandon is fond of feeding us. Now since i don't think i even bothered to answer Op's question i'll do it now : I fervently wish that SKA is resolved, i think that K has more than enough on his plate, let the couple deal with the mess on their own, i'll welcome any outcome as long as it makes sense and doesn't involve Kaladin.

Brandon went out of his way to make it clear through multiple characters that there was no actual contract or obligation to see the marriage through for either party, so i don't quite see what makes it a "textbook definition of an arranged marriage". The whole thing was only a small step above Adolin's usual courting in that his family were slightly more involved in the process. The label they put on the relationship was only meant to keep other families at bay while the two got to know each other, there was no compulsion and the party in a position of power was less eager to see it happen. Besides where do you even get that the causal betrothal was even a thing before Shallan had her say ? Yes, Jasnah spoke to Navani first, who then may or may not have gotten a little too excited by the prospect, but i don't remember reading anywhere that they put anything in motion before getting Shallan's clear approval.

Don't see why most people here are averse to the suggestion ? It would fit nicely as far as i can see, there's nothing that can explain why Jezrien wasn't killed in the weeks between Kholinar's fall and the book's end, before then you can argue (weakly) that while the weapon existed Odium didn't have access to the Herald or didn't have anyone he could trust with the task until the Fused returned. We're talking about a guy who sent people to steal a gemstone no one knew about from a city he was ( as far as he knew ) a few hours from conquering, he doesn't strike me as the type to leave threats laying around at arm's reach. As for the argument that Odium shouldn't need to see Nightblood in action to guess the ramifications of its power, well i'm just not buying it, we know nothing about the Oathpact and the powers that bind and animate both Fused and Heralds, it's not too hard to assume that as far as he knew those connections could not be broken, and so even if he already possessed the knowledge to create that weapon he may not have known it would have the effect it does on these particular victims.

Since spren languages are brought up, the trip to Shadesmar always felt odd in that regard, since all the spren we meet happen to conveniently speak Alethi, unless while in that realm it's meanings that are directly exchanged somehow ? We know (i think?) spren see differently from humans, what about hearing ? Is there even air in the cogntive realm ? No clue, so i would appreciate some help with this.

Just in case someone feels like reading too much into the text today, there's this line when they're jumping from the honorspren ship : "She clung to Adolin, but Pattern’s hand was pulled from her grip." The kind of random scenes that are most often innocent but you still can't stop yourself from thinking maybe there's something there because of said randomness, or maybe it's just me, didn't find this mentioned after a quick search.

I wasn't aware of anything close to that, so thanks for the WoB. In the examples you listed the Thrill seems odd in this context, isn't it confirmed that the Unmade are splinters of Odium ? Why would their influence on a human or listener be a hack ? In those cases you have a blank canvas in which you inject one Shard's investiture, what is there to co-opt ?

Maybe "friends" was just Malata's way of refering to the species, that's how i read it at first since it fit her speech patterns (well from the little we saw), most spren are pissed to some extent at humans for the deaths of their ancestors, it just seems that some individuals are more vengeful than others, Spark doesn't have to have witnessed it. But if she truly is that old that potentialy gives Taravangian quite the information trove once the memories return. Curious to see if Spark is pulling a Syl in that she's going against the rest of her kind in jumping straight into Odium's lap, don't think the Radiants can afford to lose a whole other order to the ennemi.

The bit about drawing him and how it was said was actually what convinced me it was Veil, that was as close as Brandon could get to an "i want a piece of that". Real Shallan would have been more reserved than that i figure, but who knows.

I don't see anything in your post that would contradict voibinding/light being of Odium other than the colors not matching, which is a moot point since if as you assume Honor's color is blue then that wouldn't fit stormlight being always white ( don't know where you got the blue stormlight ? ). The only other argument you give is a massive leap in my view, you take the absence of red glow in Renarin's eyes to somehow mean that the Fused' use of voidbinding is a hack, when the much simpler explanation is that the red glow is due to the use of the voidlight to power whatever magic you're using, the glow comes from holding a specific investiture not using surges. Then there's the whole consuming gemhearts to get investiture bit, i don't know where that comes from, but i guess the theory needs a way to separate Odium from voidlight so whatever. We know there's likely more to the Everstorm than just a way to bypass Braize, it somehow healed the parshmen and allowed them to regain their minds. Venli got a gem from Gavilar ? i kinda rushed her chapters but i doubt i'd have missed that, my understanding is that Gavilar had two gems, one holding Yelignar that remained in Kholinar and was used by Aesudan, and the one he gave Szeth for safekeeping. But anyway, Sja-Anat could or could not be involved in the whole mess in the plains, remember that Taln had already fallen at that point so voidspren were loose and it made sense they'd flock to the only band of listeners capable of forming bonds let alone the fact that Odium planned the whole thing anyway so they'd go where he points. As for Renarin's spren, he could have been created anywhere then went looking for a viable host. For the Voidbinding chart, the interpretation seems rather random to me, but i'll leave that to people more versed in Brandon's magic systems.

The only thing that confuses me about Gavilar is how nonchalent he was when offering the sphere to Eshonai, it just made no sense from our perspective, there must be something we're missing which we'd likely get from his pov in a coming prologue. Before reading that i always assumed that he was smart enough to use the other fanatical morons in the organisation to carefuly plan and kickstart a containable crisis (the parshendi rampage with new forms of power) which he would use to forcefuly unite part of Roshar in preparation for the impending desolation. He had the visions so he knew it was coming regardless of what they did, this leads me to believe that the rest of the Sons (the ones the Diagram would be refering to) were unaware of the real gambit and the extent of his knowledge. Can't wait to know more about the guy, still have hope for him having had a ruthlessly effective plan before Szeth happened.

He also did grab two realms and slam them into another. Next book he'll have to get hold of the Cosmere somehow.

It could be, but to remain free Dalinar would need to commit troups and Radiants to protecting an isolated piece of land with no real value and too far from the Oathgates, i have trouble seeing that happening. I also don't think the Voidbringers would ignore a weak southern Alethkar to go push into the contested territories. The safe bet is that by the next book the country will have been fully occupied and the Alethi will be supporting Herdaz and pushing into the Sadeas lands, opening the way for our proto-Highprince to spearhead the liberation efforts (once the Windrunners work out their moral dilemma anyway).

Well the Voidbringers will want any available strip of farmable land and human slaves to work them, we know from OB that they conquered other cities on their way to Kholinar, would make sense if the parshmen coming from the warcamps in the plains and the southern princedoms did the same in the south, there's nothing to stop them. While small towns like Hearthstone weren't worth their time in the first push toward Kholinar, i expect they'll start expanding their occupation from the cities they hold now that there are no armies coming any time soon. I wonder if we'll see a massive exodus toward the warcamps or if the humans down south will also just submit to the new rule,

That part made me laugh actually, there we have Dalinar offering the soon to become second most powerful man on Roshar a strip of land with 6 villages on it ... I'm really waiting to see how the power dynamic in Urithiru will turn out when Kal grows into his new role as more and more squires attract their spren and earn their shards. That aside i doubt Dalinar's gift will be relevant anytime soon, that land is probably in Voidbringer territory by now, even if it's not i don't see Kal focusing on it just because Dalinar decided it belonged to him now, he has bigger concerns.

First ideal theory that didn't make me cringe, that took a while, have an upvote. I don't think it'll be enough though, it's commonly assumed that the ideal will have to deal with failure, Kaladin already entrusts others with the task of protecting people he cares for and is somewhat aware of his limitations, there has to be a part where he accepts that not everyone can be protected despite his and others' efforts so he can let go of his guilt, seems obvious but clearly not easy to accept. I still can't figure how it could be formulated without sounding underwhelming.

I would be very surprised and disappointed if Odium is as blind to Cultivation's intentions as some are implying here, it wasn't that hard for us to link the dots, and this theory isn't based on anything Odium is unaware of, that's why i like the idea of Renarin as the ultimate wild card so much, i would find it far more satisfying if both Shards tried to outsmart each other only to end up blindsided by the little human everyone overlooked (don't know how long that will last now that part of the secret is out though ...).