Pammie

Quick question for veterans, how spoilery will these forums be for the next few days? Like, will they're be spoilers in discussion titles? Will there be different discussions open for different sections of the book?

Of course, Oathbringer would come out the week before Thanksgiving break, when professors are cramming in assignments, and on a Tuesday, which is one of the days where I really can't skip any classes. Weirdly, I kind of wish the book was coming out next week, so that I'd have all of Thanksgiving break to read it... That being said, I am 100% going to be at Books-a-million at opening and will cram in as much time as possible before classes start and although the good student in me will feel bad, there is no way I can be productive when there's a new Sanderson book sitting on my shelf

I'd say that we're fairly certain that Honor was talking about the The Way of Kings, mostly because of Gavilar's last words to Dalinar and Gavilar's own influence from Honor. But maybe you're right and he'll pick up Oathbringer in Oathbringer and discover more stuff about the Knights Radiance.

If Dalinar remembers his past wife just to start forgetting Navani, I am going to fall over and die. Pleeeeease Dalinar, noooooooooooo

@Knabepicer You're right! I misread. Although Elkohar is vowing to follow Dalinar's commands, Dalinar won't be the Highking of Alethkar but Urithiru. This still doesn't mean that he'll become Highking of Roshar, but does this mean he'll become the leader of the KR? It still seems strange to me, especially since we don't know anything yet about the KR infrastructure. Dalinar and Elkohar obviously don't either, but that's not stopping them. I guess we have to wait to find out.

Whoa, Highking of Roshar? Maybe I read it wrong, but I thought that he wants to unite the nations in a let's-be-friends-and-fight-together way, not a let-me-lead-you way. There's way more to uniting than conquering or leading: he would have to convince the leaders to work together without being their Highking, which is much harder. There's no way all of the countries of Roshar would just bend the knee because Dalinar's a KR. And even if they did, then wouldn't that mean that the KR would basically become the ruling class? If Dalinar is Highking over all of Roshar and the leader of the KR, then they would become his own personal army/noblemen, which is NOT how I envisioned them. I assumed that the KR were a separate group from all of the countries, that they have no allegiance to a single country but would help whenever asked/needed. So Dalinar would be the Highking of Alethkar only and would try to get the nations to work together through diplomatic means only. Also, we don't have any evidence that Bondsmiths lead the KR. They might've been consulted and their opinions might've held a lot of weight, but it seems to me that every KR order was self-governing, although I love the idea of a KR council! That'd be awesome

I think I agree. The problem with reading just a few chapters of Oathbringer weekly is that our perception of the timeline gets distorted and we can give too much attention to small details that aren't important, so this may be one of those issues. BUT it just feels strange that Dalinar and the other Knights Radiant haven't sat down and talked about what being a KR means and what their roles are. Ok, first of all, it does make sense that the few KR around Dalinar would automatically be subservient to him. Renarin, Shallan and Kaladin were already loyal and obeying Dalinar before the KR stuff started happening and Dalinar was the one who made it known that he was refounding the KR. Neither Shallan or Renarin have shown any eagerness to lead yet, and Kaladin has been serving in the army for years, working under his superior wouldn't seem strange at all. Even Mr. T's mysterious surgebinder will probably automatically follow Dalinar's command. But what happens when other surgebinders do being to show up? Some, like Lift, will probably not have allegiances to anyone and just want to stop the upcoming Desolation, but there will definitely be others who are loyal to their country. Others might want to stop the Desolation, but will see no reason to try and do it Dalinar's way (whatever that is.) And what if another Bondsmith appears who has different methods than Dalinar? Would Dalinar try to co-lead or would he decide that that Bondsmith is in the wrong and try to wrest power away? (I think he would.) I think that the real issue is that by being the 'Highking' of Alethkar AND refounding/leading the Knights Radiant, Dalinar is unintentionally setting up the Knights Radiant as an Alethi group, which will definitely create factions among the surgebinders. So, Dalinar has a few options: Dalinar can step down as the Alethi Highking to lead the Knights Radiant, or co-lead it with the other two Bondsmiths (if they show up.) Or Dalinar should realize that he was never supposed to lead the KR. (I like this idea better.) Each Order had their own Herald that they followed, so it seems strange to me that they would all look to the Bondsmith's Order specifically, especially since Windrunner's also have the leadership attributes. We know that all the Orders worked together, but that there was a good bit of infighting. Skybreakers acted as the KRPD (Knights Radiant Police Department), so other orders could have filled in similar roles, but I think each order was ultimately self-governing and followed their own specific goals. So Dalinar could continue to be Highking, but realize that he should treat the other KR's more as independent peers, no as subordinates. IF the second option is right, then I am really hoping that it's addressed in this book, since it's not only focused on Dalinar's bloodsoaked past, but it will also be dealing heavily with the rebuilding of the KR and Shallan's discoveries of the KR's history. Personally, I would love it if either Shallan or Renarin realize that they're not doing what they're supposed to be doing and break away from Dalinar. Obviously, since Dalinar was a warrior and is now the army commander/Hightking of an militaristic country, he will treat the KR as an army and will use the surgebinders around him as soldiers and pawns (which isn't necessarily a bad thing.) Wouldn't it be great if Renarin realizes that he's not supposed to be fighting any wars or leading the men, especially since Truthwatchers attributes are Learned/Giving and Creative/Honesty? This lines up perfectly with his character: he grew up the son of a Highprince in a country where being a soldier is considered divine, but he's so ill-suited for fighting that even his father has tried to convince him to become an ardent. His surges, Progression and Illumination won't be very handy in a fight, but for the first time in his life, he'll be good at something and will be needed, just not as a soldier. I'm crossing my fingers that he'll realize this, realize that as a Truthwatcher, he shouldn't be subservient to his father, and insist on doing his own thing, possibly discovering the 'truth' about the Recreance/Desolations/Spren/Shards while giving to those in need and instructing others how to prepare for the Desolation. The same can be said for Lift and maybe Shallan, but I really like the idea that every order will fight/save the world in different ways and Dalinar just hasn't realized it yet.

Not to mention that if shardplate is made up of dead spren, then live spren like Syl, should hate it just as much, or more, than shardblades. But the emphasis is only ever on Blades. Plus, you don't bond with shardplate, it just takes a while to get used to.

Wow, I cannot believe that we already know the reason why the Knights Radiant turned their backs on mankind on the Day of Recreance.

I'm crossing my fingers that Lift will just randomly pop up from the Oathgate, hopefully right in the middle of a really dramatic scene. Imagine: there's a bang, a flash of light and suddenly a barefoot, half-starved, beggar girl with no safehand is standing on the Oathgate, brandishing a ShardFork and threatening to eat somebody if they don't take her to Dalinar pronto.

So Renarin hasn't told them yet that he has a blade? Even after his discussion with Adolin? I guess that these two POVs are probably happening simultaneously, but still, I can see now why people would be annoyed when Truthwatchers never told anybody anything. My gosh, just have a clear conversation with Shallan or Dalinar!!! Let us see your spren!!!! Seriously though, now that we've seen Renarin's blade and he has used one of the Truthwatcher's surges, it should be proof enough that he is actually a KR, but something still feels fishy. Why haven't we seen even a hint of Glys? Why haven't we gotten a POV from him? When he sent that pulse of stormlight through Adolin, Adolin saw "A version of himself that was somehow complete and whole, the man he could be." That's evidence enough for me that Renarin is a Truthwatcher, but what's up with all of this mystery surrounding him? Branderson obviously has big things planned for him (here's the most recent chapter of Way of Kings Prime that features Renarin pretty heavily). And all those RAFO's regarding Truthwatchers? That mystery hint he gave about Renarin? What about those Everstorm visions? Even though it's pretty obvious now that Renarin is a Truthwatcher, something funky is still going on. Sounds like Dalinar has possession of the honorblade and is hoping to keep it a secret. Oh Dalinar.............buddy...........no............ Could the Radiant that Mr. T is sending possibly be the Champion? I guess that it's possible that an actual Radiant has come to help her king, but what if she's an artificial Radiant? Maybe a spren was forced to bond? I don't see how sending an honest surgebinder to Dalinar would help Mr. T, unless it's just a move to gain Dalinar's trust. I'm psyched to meet this new surgebinder (if she is who she says she is)! Hopefully she's in an order that we haven't seen much of.

This may be a dumb question, but is Shallan considered a full Knight Radiant yet? Will she ever be, unless she decides she's a KR or someone declares her a KR? Is it an arbitrary title or something directly linked to the Nahel bond/Spren? Throughout the books, we're constantly reminded that just being a surgebinder doesn't make one a Radiant, they have to say the oaths first. But we also know that each order have different oaths, there's a WoB that says that some orders only have one oath, some have multiples, and some, like Lightweavers, have none. They use truths to deepen their bond. So, I guess I'm asking, is there a different threshold for each order to become a KR? And, once they reach this threshold, are they considered a KR by their spren? Or is this just an arbitrary title given by the man-made order? Like, if a surgebinder reached the final oath, would their spren be like 'Yay, you're a Knight Radiant! Congrats, you're crazy powerful now!' Or would the leader of their order be like, 'Oh, you reached the fifth oath? Well, that's good enough, let me write you down on the Knight Radiant Membership List.' (Sorry if I'm asking something redundant, I haven't been able to find much info on it)

@robardin @Khyrindor So I just released my inner stalker and did several google searches where I found this thread from August where he drops a few more hints, one being that it's a page where Renarin's name is NOT mentioned. Here's the link, it's in one of his comments further down on the page. I thought that these small chapter releases would help with the wait, but I was so wrong. We still have two whole months until Oathbringer and I am literally going to go insane.

Hmmm, you're right, the King used to consider Roshone a friend, which would explain why he would have a spanreed directly to the queen. That's kind of disappointing. Good catch though!

I keep seeing people assume that either Ialai or the Ghostbloods are doing this because they know who the true culprit is, but why? Adolin and Sadeas were alone, in the dark, and based on Adolin's personality and alibi, it doesn't seem plausible that anyone would suspect him. I guess someone could've been spying behind the corner, but it seems more probable to me that Adolin committed the perfect crime, which makes this murder arc so much more interesting. If he never admitted to it, no one would know, but now someone is using his murder for some type of personal gain and he's supposed to find the murderer. What happens if he never comes up with a suspect? He could try to find the copycat, but is it right to blame them for the first murder also?

Honestly, Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell has always struck me as a great name. It might not be the best artistically, but it's definitely memorable. Plus, The Fifth Season and Leviathan Wakes are great.

Great analysis! Upvote! You made the suspect list very clear and I agree with all of your conclusions. Personally, I think that it makes the most sense if Ialai was the culprit. Sure, the Ghostbloods could be doing it, but it seems a bit too blatant for them. Plus, there have to be better ways to control Shallan, and it seems like they would have bigger fish to fry at this point. But here's what we know about Ialai: 1) She shares her husbands sociopathic ideologies, 2) she has an extended spy network capable of carrying out assassinations, 3) she has the most to gain from destroying House Kholin's reputation, and 4) even though they were insane, it seemed like both Sadeas and Ialai both genuinely cared for one another, so this could be her way to exact revenge. If so, it's brilliant. She already as the perfect method to do so, it'll throw dirt on Dalinar's and Elhokar's reputation (especially if it's revealed who the original murderer was) and it will probably, eventually drag the murderer to light.

Yeah, I thought that this was strange too. Maybe all towns in Alethkar do? This seems really ineffective, wouldn't it make more sense for them to have to go through an intermediary first? Also, as nice as it was for Kaladin to visit his hometown and resolve some things, I've been wondering what this little trip to Hearthstone adds to the plot. I'm betting that lil' Oroden will become important later, possibly in the second-half of the series, after the time-skip. But it would also make a lot of sense for Laral to be connected to the queen and somehow be drawn in the issues in Kholinar. Maybe she'll tip Aesudan off that Dalinar is refounding the Knights Radiant? And the queen will use this somehow to try and wrest power away from the Kholins? Also, her presence will also be a constant reminder for Kaladin about his perception of his past and maybe force some character growth. There has to be some importance to this visit at Hearthstone, and it'd be weird if all towns in Alethkar have a spanreed directly to the queen, but I don't know how it fits together?

@I am Witless Hmmm, I'd have to say that my top 3 Sanderson books so far would be Hero of Ages, Elantris and Words of Radiance. Hero of Ages was a life-changing experience for me, the ending absolutely blew me away. Mistborn was the first fantasy series I had ever finished, excluding LotR, and converted me to the Cosmere, lol. I loved Sel's worldbuilding, even though the plot of Elantris lost me near the end, so I'm really looking forward to the sequels. And really, I've loved all of the Stormlight Archive so far, the worldbuilding and characters have been phenomenal so far. Thanks for asking! You?

Doesn't this seem like an over-powered resonance, especially compared to Windrunner's squires or Lightweaver's memory tricks? If they can see the future as their resonance, then it has to be a very basic kind, like getting glimpses or feelings, but that doesn't seem to be on track with the little information that we have on Renarin's visions. Personally, I think that it'd make more sense for Truthwatcher's resonance to be much more literal: like, if they have the ability to tell truth from lies. This seems more on par with the other resonances we've seen. We know that Renarin's visions are overpowering and show the destruction of the everstorm, but the way it was portrayed didn't make it seem like a resonance. Kaladin and Shallan's resonances were subtle and make sense with their attributes. Having powerful, omniscient visions of the future sounds like it would be way too overpowered to be a resonance. So, if the visions aren't coming from him, where are they coming from? The idea that Odium is controlling Renarin always seemed strange to me, because why Renarin? He's weak, not in a position of much power, and the little that we know about him is that he's earnest, easily obeys, and Dalinar is even impressed how he doesn't resent his older brother. Wouldn't Odium try to influence someone a little more... hateful? But, what if the visions are coming from Cultivation, in the same way that Dalinar was receiving visions from Honor. We know that Cultivation was better at foretelling than Honor and that Truthwatchers are influenced by Cultivation (possibly the closest order to Cultivation? In the same way that Bondsmiths might be closest to Honor?) I doubt that she's just sitting in the west, twiddling her thumbs and we know that Dalinar had a run in with the Nightwatcher, who is theorized to be close to Cultivation. Could this maybe have given her access to Renarin? So in summary, I think that Renarin is a Truthwatcher, that Truthwatchers have a much more mundane resonance that foretelling, and that these visions he's receiving are coming from something else, possibly Cultivation.

These chapters were great, all of the awkwardness from the first few chapters are gone and the plot is steam-rolling ahead. But since they were mainly plot based, there's not a lot of new material to discuss besides these few nuggets: Where the parshment/Voidbringers are gathering and why The 'tugging' Shallan experienced from Dalinar that resulted in the light-woven map of places she's never seen Shallan's inability to draw Urithiru How much Renarin knows about Odium's champion and Adolin's involvement in the murder Why no one has thought to ask Renarin ANYTHING. Who the copycat is and why

Mmmm the plot thickens around Sadeas' murder. Not only is Adolin in charge of finding the murderer and there's a copycat running around, but Renarin clearly knows what's up and Shallan's figuring it out fast. Honestly, I did not see the murder arc going like this at all and I am so PSYCHED! Adolin can't possibly frame someone else for Sadeas' murder and even if he finds the copycat, the Mystery Gang (Shallan + Renarin) know what's up. It'll be a big hit to the Kholin's reputation. ( I'm betting that Ialai is behind the murders, killing her own men to bring House Kholin down.) Other notes: Laral is a BAMF? Yes please Fingers crossed that Oroden comes back in the later half of the series, maybe as a surgeon in training? I complained last time about the lack of Renarin/Shallan/Knights Radiant stuff, but this chapter was all that I could've asked for. We're already getting hints on the yummy Bondsmith/Truthwatchers info and Shallan's unease about the tower really set the scene. I was reading in my dark room and got a few shivers up my back. (Although, really, has no one asked Renarin what his powers are? How is he training? Where's Glys? What can he see, with his special eyes? Does he know who the champion is? Has he been sprouting an extra 8 shadows? ) This story is progressing fast! Kaladin's already left Hearthstone to track down the parshmen, Adolin's Murder Mystery is heating up fast, and it sounds like Team Kholin will be leaving Urithiru soon to start saving the world. Hopefully we'll get more Knights Radiant info via Shallan sooner rather than later.

One complaint I do have is the lack of both Renarin and Shallan. (Especially Shallan though. Has she done anything yet besides stand in the background?) I get that there are a lot of characters to juggle and that this is Dalinar's book and that we only have the first 6 chapters, but they've been in Urithiru for several days now, and we haven't heard a single thing about Shallan exploring the secrets of the Radiants. Is she dealing with the Ghostbloods already? And speaking of Renarin, has seriously no one asked 'Hey, what's up with this Radiant stuff?' It was so out of no where at the end of WoR, I would think that Dalinar would ask a few more questions. Has anyone seen Glys? Has he explained his powers or anything yet to anybody? Is he still having visions? What was Adolin's reaction to his gf and brother being Radiants from the legends? WHY ISN'T DALINAR INTERACTING WITH EITHER OF THE TWO SURGEBINDERS RIGHT BESIDE HIM? I'm hoping that Branderson will address all of this in due time, it just feels weird to shove them both to the side without any reference or hints to what they might be doing.

While I agree, Kaladin will always be riding that Idiot Ball, I don't think he's acting stupidly. There's a big difference between protecting an cremhole and decking said cremhole in the face. Especially an cremhole that would undoubtedly look down on Kaladin and disagree with everything he says. I'm not really saying that Kaladin was right to punch him, just that I don't think he's acting against his character development from WoR. Actually, I would think that the best way to deal with Roshone would be to put him in his place; unless he's had some serious character development, he's not going to work with Kaladin unless forced to.

I think you're right about that being Cultivation's voice. The only other spren we know that's definitely connected with her is Wyndle and he's described as being a bundle of vines with crystals peeking out. Plus, he apparently grew a crystal garden? And considers himself the purest form of cultivation spren? Maybe crystals will become a running theme with Cultivation. Also, as far as we know, she's stationed somewhere far to the east, so that explains the "clear, distant voice."