Dreamstorm

@Jofwu I think university is exactly where nerdy, introverted girls find friends! I guess it depends on the college (maybe Elendel = big 10 party school), but there are niches everywhere, and a lot of people with time on their hands. I find in the real world - with a real job and lots of other competing responsibilities - that’s where it can be hard for an introvert to find others to connect with. Massive diversion, haha! But now that you mentioned it, I’m bothered but Marasi’s lack of university friends (male or female.) I’m sure it doesn’t help a woman even going to university in that era was a bit odds. Maybe MB3 will show a better diversity of female friendships. After the diversion on that, I think @Jofwuand @Isilel make a good point about Shallan making friends outside her prescribed class. If I was Lyn, I would be, um... you better prove yourself, but Ishnah is a great choice. In retrospect, it would have been nice to see things develop a bit more in that direction in OB. (Does Shallan wonder once about what happened to Ishnah and Vathah after Kholinar? Oh Shallan...)

@misskassiekynn Welcome!! And I'm glad you like the idea of Laral as a friend too. She's not exactly a fan favorite (with defending Roshone (who is awful) and all), but I see her as a quite sympathetic character given the situations she was thrust into. I think her and Shallan could have a lot in common, as they both grew up isolated (Shallan from everyone, Laral because of her status) in the countryside and influenced by less-than-ideal role models, plus were forced into pretty terrible situations (Shallan's was worse, but Laral's father died when she was young, and she was fostered and then forced to marry into a terrible family.) If I'm going to fanfic this up, I would have Roshone die, and Shallan befriending Laral while she's getting acquainted to Urithiru and flirting with the idea of dating again. Shallan and Laral giggling over boys? Shallan might never get to experience herself what is for many a young woman a rite of passage, but maybe she can through Laral @Jofwu That's a good point about all of Brandon's young female characters... I guess Shallan really stands out to me because she's not nobility (which I imagine is incredibly isolating, can't say I have personal experience with this though, lol) or from the streets. Marasi though is really odd now that you mention it. Where are her friends?? Wasn't she at university? Hmmm.... @StormingTexan I feel like Shallan already blew off Lyn at the beginning of OB, so if I was Lyn I'd be a bit skeptical. Lyn has female friends from what we can tell (her scribe turned squire crew), and Shallan totally rejected the overtures of friendship. Now, I know some of that was Patternblade connected (and all that goes along with that in Shallan's mind), but that's part of why I wonder if Shallan even knows how to interact with a female friend. (And poof goes my Laral fanfic, boo. Edit: and the Wandersail one below.) @BraidedRose I'm totally into the idea of Rysn. If Shallan shows up in Wandersail, I will collapse in happiness. Shallan and Rysn on a girls trip to... the Origin..?

Not romantic girlfriend (though nothing against that), but an actual friend who is a girl (young lady, woman, what have you) to be a confidante and support person who is not her superior (Jasnah, Navani) or her romantic partner. This is something Shallan has been sorely missing in her life, given as she was so isolated growing up. Is this a relationship Shallan is even capable of forming given her upbringing? Are there any good candidates in the book at the moment? Perhaps this will be the function of the mysterious (sorta) May Aladar? Perhaps Laral (should Hearthstone move to Urithiru)?

I feel like I remember reading somewhere there was speculation Kaladin’s reaction to Shallan was actually supernatural (and his reaction to Tien was along the same lines), but I don’t remember where. I don’t think that cuts either way in particular, because I think it comes down to this: is it better to be with someone who pushes you to change (which can be very uncomfortable and potentially makes you feel awful if you can’t achieve it) or who supports where you are now (which is more comfortable but potentially enables you to remain static indefinitely)? This is definitely fact dependent from person to person. I’m of the opinion Brandon is on the side of “push to change” for both Kaladin and Shallan, so some of the things which are seen as arguably bad, I see as forcing them to think and act differently, which will ultimately be a catalyst for change. I just don’t see stasis as the driver behind the plotting, and that’s what Adolin is for Shallan - a stake in the ground for her to maintain this illusion that the Shallan mask is really all of her.

My main question was the first part - why do you think Adolin thinks these masks are all Shallan? She thinks they are not her. Adolin says they are different people. So I’m not sure how you’re seeing that Adolin “gets it” despite how he’s acting.

Nice closing argument @Calderis, always good to have certainty in your opinions This was a nice read and it’s clear you put a lot of thought into how you feel about it. A couple pieces which didn’t hang together for me: Why do you believe Adolin knows they are “all her”? If that’s the case, why would Adolin treat them differently? You make a good argument for Kaladin exacerbating Shallan’s issues (and it’s one Shallan is also making to herself), but how do you see Shallan as exacerbating Kaladin’s issues?

@BraidedRose I think so much of that depends on whether or not you see Shallan at the very end of OB as a Shallan mask or as "real" Shallan, and connected, whether or not you see Veil and Radiant as integral parts of Shallan or fabrications/false sides of Shallan. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, it is "real" Shallan at the end, and Veil and Radiant are fabrications, or in a sense parasites upon the real Shallan. If she was struggling to maintain her "real" self against these self-fabricated invaders of sorts, then "without you I fade" could be seen as requiring Adolin's support in order to continue to suppress these false sides of her. She requires his recognition of "Shallan" as the authentic Shallan in order to keep those false sides firmly in the back of her brain. This still sounds quite unhealthy to me, but perhaps in the year time skip Adolin's assistance in maintaining this suppression will allow Shallan to fully shed those false sides of herself so she can remain "Shallan" without needing that crutch, i.e. she can stop her "real" self from fading on her own. It doesn't change paradigm you mentioned, but it puts it in a different light whether Adolin propping up "Shallan" is in fact a good thing.

Nale is a seriously twisted person, there is no doubt of that. But, this is the Skybreakers' whole MO - find Radiants and kill them. If you read Mraize's letter (Ch. 40 in OB), you'll see he references the "intimate contact" between Shallan's mother and a Skybreaker acolyte. The purpose of an acolyte is to seek out budding Radiants and kill them, hence the attempt to kill Shallan. Yes, it is beyond, absolutely, 100%, ridiculously messed up that Shallan's mother went along with that plan, but that's part of what hints that everything wasn't so peachy in the Davar household prior to our first Shallan flashback. Because what kind of mother would you be to agree to the murder of your own child?!? Brandon definitely doesn't show us everything... who knows what's lurking prior to Shallan's first flashback. Maybe not that much, maybe a lot. I think the point was that adultery is usually caustic to a relationship, so it's reasonable to infer Shallan's parents had struggles based on her mother's adultery. (The exception would be if an open relationship was accepted, though I find that highly unlikely in a Vorin marriage, those oaths and all.) It's a pretty small logical leap to go from "adultery" to "conflict in a relationship." I'd say cheating is a big, big deal to most people, and I can't imagine based on what we know about Lin, he was cool with it. Kids pick up on a lot more than a lot of parents realize. Even if there was no fighting directly in front of the children, a hostile vibe between parents can definitely have an effect on a child. So, yeah, parents can hide their issues - presenting a superficially happy front - yet there can still be a lot of tension in a household. Have you ever walked into a room where everyone is smiling but it seems fake and forced and you sense an undercurrent of unease? Something like that. @SLNC saw you requested to be moved to another thread after I had typed this out, feel free to do so though!

Actually, 1.5 of these are interpretations. Adolin's mother was murdered as a boy, OK. (One could argue it wasn't murder since it wasn't premeditated, a necessary prong of murder, but I won't haggle on that one. She died when he was 12.) Dalinar was a drunk, OK. Dismissive? That's an interpretation. We see Dalinar dismiss him once, and then immediately feel bad in his thoughts and tell Adolin he would watch him duel with pride. You can extrapolate from there as to how their relationship was in other instances, but that's an interpretation. Abnormally high expectations is definitely an interpretation, as what constitutes abnormally high expectations is an opinion itself and highly fact dependent. You may see that as cut and dry, but it's very subjective. So, canonized elements are Adolin's mother was killed when he was 12 and his father was a drunk from when Adolin was 12 to when he was 17. I agree that could mess someone up. I also think it could not. (Adolin appears to fall in the latter category, as you note.)

@Kaladins I personally read Kaladin as a character who is attracted to women, as it seems he has fairly strong sexual feelings about Shallan (i.e. arousal while holding her close during the high storm) and also Laral to an extent (though that is early teens attraction), but I definitely think he is a character who could easily also be attracted to men. I am a particular fan of Kaladin's relationship with Adolin, and I think this could easily be explored as a romantic relationship without disturbing the canon. They have a very close relationship with a lot of admiration and chemistry, including noticing each other physically quite a bit. While I doubt Brandon will go there (to my sadness), I think it's a very plausible read! Sometimes I wonder how much Brandon realizes he is writing like this... he has actually said that Shallan is bisexual even though he did not intend to write her that way (this was before OB), and I noticed we got some very admiring descriptions of Jasnah from Shallan's perspective in OB, which almost seemed to be intentionally deepening this characterization. I'm hopeful that at some point we will get a PoV character in a non-heteronormative relationship, though I know Brandon has expressed concern about doing so unless he can do it well.

This is a great point, and one which I was thinking about in connection with Calderis' point about showing romantic relationships at the stage beyond infatuation and attraction. I have a huge sticking point with the SKA resolution from a literary standpoint, which is I do not understand Kal's role in all this as it played out, but for the sake of argument, let's say that was satisfactorily resolved/we rewind time and not have him involved. Do I see a path forward where I could see Shadolin come around to being a satisfying romance? I think yes, but it would take a lot of work. Shallan has a lot of issues, and it wouldn't work for me to have Adolin just stand by being endlessly loving and supportive while she painfully worked through them. I think what could be good, would be a relationship pushed to breaking, with an incredibly frustrated Adolin, a Shallan who is becoming more independent (and whole), and then seeing it stitched back together. So, I think I would need a reboot. So, I guess what I feel more than anything is Shallan needs a new romance, but I could see that "new" romance being with Adolin himself if done in the right way. Question for you if you don't mind sharing... who did you ship after WoR? I always assumed you were a Shadolin shipper going into OB, but maybe not? I also have a lot of confusion about Shallan, and it doesn't help in all of this, it's so tied to her romantic arc (where many of us have strong opinions.) I hate when I'm worried I believe something only because of confirmation bias! I agree with parts of this but not others. I don't think she is becoming other people, but I do think she is in some ways like an actor trying on roles. We all do this to some extent - we have a work persona, a social persona, a family persona, a 17th shard persona () which likely all vary at least a bit - but Shallan takes this to a pathological level. (My interpretation is highly influenced by this WoB, as I've fit my view of Shallan into how he's describing it btw.) All of these personas are actually Shallan, just as who I am at work is me, even if I'm suppressing my contradictory side, as much as who I am out with friends is still me, even if I'm suppressing my more responsible side. There isn't a "real" me which is hidden underneath all of these, instead all of these are me, just pruned and accented in little ways to fit the situation I am in. Shallan obviously takes this to an extreme (and she most certainly views these personas as not her, hence the back stories and referring to them as different from her), but they are still all Shallan. I think this distinction is really accented when you take the intimacy part - Shallan is no less Shallan when she has dark hair and is suppressing her proper side, etc. Adolin may not be attracted to that side of Shallan, but that means that he is not attracted to part of Shallan, which is why that is a bit distressing. Just saw you responded to the thread as I was writing! I agree with a lot of your characterization of Shallan, but I wanted to throw out this WoB regarding Adolin's perceptiveness... It's from before OB (and obviously WoBs are soft cannon), but it does line up with how I see Adolin a lot with Shallan - kind of tone deaf... not noticing her distress when asking to teach her to use her sword or when she finds out Kaladin killed Heleran, or her exhaustion when escaping from Kholinar, or focusing on her outfit when she returns after the Wit conversation (Shallan seems a bit exasperated there with her "Oh, Adolin.") But I know these things can of course be read in different ways! I wanted to highlight the things in bold, though. Adolin doesn't even know about her childhood or the source of her grief and trauma, so I find it hard to believe he could really know her. That trauma and broken childhood is so far a very central part of Shallan's character as it is presented to the reader, so I find it hard to believe anyone who doesn't have any idea of what she went through can really begin to understand her. Ok, you convinced me. I need a thread on Pattern and Shallan. Pattern finds the lies so fascinating and yet he is distressed by them, ahhhh, I can't wrap my head around it.

I don't know if I have much to add, but I want to comment first on the situation Brandon has written himself into, and then why some of this Adolin controversy gives me hope for the future. I voted neutral. After WoR, this would have been mostly positive. Why did this change? Simply, in WoK and WoR, Adolin was less likeable. He was frivolous, a bit of a cad, worried about superficial things like his house's reputation over his father's madness, racist (against dark eyes), concerned with status, a bit mean (to Kaladin), etc., but this was balanced with a genuinely kind, loyal, funny, friendly, outgoing person. (Btw, I know a lot of people disagree with my list of "bad" traits, but this is just my opinion and why I liked Adolin.) In OB, as many have mentioned before, these bad traits appear to have disappeared. Adolin is more likeable, but this makes him IMO, a worse character. Many of the popular plotlines for Adolin's future development would not do anything for me in terms of developing Adolin's character, as they would make him even more likeable. Revive his deadeye by being nice to her - more likable, furious at his father for his mother's death - more likeable, supportive and amazing to his mentally ill wife - more likeable. I see three storylines which have great potential, but since these would serve to make him less likeable, I think they would be on the whole quite unpopular to the fanbase. Feelings about Sadeas murder: Brandon has said that there are characters who would feel this is very, very wrong, something we did not see in OB. Who could this be? My bet is on Evi, who would have not been happy with her son killing someone in cold blood. WoB also says Adolin's early morality came from his mother, so I am thinking there could be internal ramifications about Adolin's own disgust in himself for being satisfied with the murder, which will lead him down a dark path. (Warring subconscious and all that.) Relationship issues: This was supposed to have a large impact on Adolin's character arc per WoB, but we haven't seen anything come of it so far. I'm thinking Adolin is the one who brings about the downfall of his marriage as an extension on these issues, and this puts forward another reason for Adolin to be upset at his own actions and reactions. (Again, Evi would not be OK with this IMO.) Abdicating responsibility to be king: Was it bad that Adolin didn't want to become king and managed to get out of it? I am thinking yes, which is yet another thing where what Adolin wants (to not be king) wars with what Adolin knows is really right (to shoulder responsibility.) So.... you have an author who has created an extremely likeable character, who may be the most beloved character in Stormlight, and whose fanbase is enamored because of that likeability. Can you really go down any of these paths and make that character less likeable? Isn't that betraying your fanbase? (I'm guessing the majority of this fandom would not like any of the above to come to fruition.) That is why I am pessimistic about where we are going with Adolin - I don't know if Brandon is willing to exploit storylines which would place Adolin in a negative light but that I think would add (or re-add) nuance to Adolin's character. One thing gives me hope though.... I think this is a consequence of his limited viewpoints. They're sparse enough that it's pretty much always focused on the matter of something else than his personal issues. I quoted this more as an example of what I see as an interesting phenomenon with Adolin. Adolin actually has a lot of viewpoints (fourth most prominent viewpoint character), but they really don't tell us all that much about him, or what they do tell us can be read in vastly different ways. That is why @Ailvara can feel one way about the exact same events and both her and Calderis perspectives can make complete sense depending on how you view Adolin. It doesn't take a lot of page time to develop a character's emotions. Look at Renarin - three (?) partial viewpoints (not even full chapters), and I feel like we as readers have a more cohesive view of Renarin as a character than we do of Adolin. Brandon is a skilled enough author that he could have developed Adolin into a more cohesive character. Shoutout @maxal who is always saying that Brandon didn't do a good job in convincing people of various things about Adolin, which is exactly my point - if he meant to convince readers, why did he do such a poor job of it? I realize Adolin may be clear to a reader in their own minds, but overall and moreso than any other character I've seen in the Cosmere, there are people with very strongly held feelings about Adolin that are polar opposites. My hope (hope!) is that this is intentional, and it's not that Brandon dropped the ball, but that he has left Adolin vague on purpose in order to allow his plans for Adolin down the road to connect to what we know of him, yet still flip the script on how he's generally viewed - as this so, so likeable guy. But, I realize this could be a lot of wishful thinking as well! (And would also make a lot of readers quite unhappy!)

Yeah, I don't know if anyone (?) would have thought this was Shallan absent the WoB, so it seemed to me like a little (maybe intentional) reveal. Kaladin hadn't met Shallan at that point in the books, so he couldn't have recognized her. The first PoV we see from Kaladin where he's around Shallan (which isn't until the training grounds one, where Shallan plays Adolin - super funny scene) he doesn't recognize her, so it doesn't appear Shallan's face stuck in his mind from that moment. I haven't done a full look to see if at any point Syl mentions, or Kal thinks, she looks familiar though. I'm guessing that might be there somewhere...

I thought that too at first, but I looked at all the times Syl dresses like a Vorin woman in OB, or when she's disguising herself in Shademar, and none of those scenes fit (doesn't change her face to look different, Shallan isn't on a beach or anything close.) In our next present-day Shallan chapter in WoR (Ch 11), she wakes up on the shore after the destruction of the Wind's Pleasure. Syl is also talking about how there are other unknown Radiants out there in that passage, which fits Shallan at that time. If there's something else you recall that fits, I'd love to hear!

WoR chapter 9 - here is the quote: I also started a thread on it a little bit ago if you have any interest in discussing it