Alderant

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Alderant last won the day on March 6 2018

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  1. So there are several different ideas or interpretations you could draw--the story is an allegory. Theres the literal interpretation, as Winds described, but there are also analogues to be drawn between the story and Shallan herself, much like the story of Fleet was an allegory with parallels to Kaladin. Is there historical accuracy? Maybe. But you have to realize that these kinds of stories aren't meant to have a specific, definable meaning--theyre open to interpretation, and that's what makes them valuable. EDIT: Basically, it's hard to say your interpretation is wrong. Go ahead and give it, and well see what parallels we can draw
  2. I, for one, am a distinct supporter of the idea that it's not even close to over. I believe Shallan has made a decision, but neither she nor Kaladin were in suitable frames of mind to make judgements like this at the end of Oathbringer. Shallan's mental state is the worst it's been since her breakdown as a child, and to believe that her choice at the end of Oathbringer is definitive in the slightest...well, that doesn't carry a good message. As for ways it could progress from here, I think marital drama is the very least of what we'll see in the future. I personally believe Kaladin will likely avoid the couple for a while. I also believe the couple is in for a rather rough ride once the shininess fades. And I believe that Shallan becoming whole will result in a discovery that she might have jumped in without fully considering her actions. I have more, but that's my basic premise.
  3. Fair point. Consider me done on the matter.
  4. You misunderstand me. I don't hate Adolin. I hate Adolin for Shallan. There's a big difference there, and while I will happily engage you in a conversation about why that is, I won't do it here, because Shallan--I can go on about Shallan for hours. But most discussion about why I find their relationship repulsive is centered on her, not Adolin. I will gladly speak of this elsewhere if you want--just not here, because that will derail the thread from its intended purpose. Personally, while I find Adolin a flawed character, I will gladly engage in discussions about him on either side of the fence (and have done so--many times). I find Adolin to be a narratively flat individual--he has no exemplary virtues beyond "he's really hot and good at dueling," and while he does have some virtues, I think they are often overstated. Similarly with his flaws, what few flaws he is given in the narrative are often glossed over or excused away. Adolin killing Sadeas, for example, is indicative of a deep impulsivity (and this is reinforced by his serial dating habits, his 'going to jail' for Kaladin, blurting out the truth about Helaran, etc.), as well as his entire narrative revolving around and focusing on a singular antagonist that he then murders in a fit of anger--those things don't speak kindly of him as a character. As I said before, I'm actually neutral with regards to Adolin as a character. I don't think he's as good as "pro-Adoliners" believe, but I also don't think he's as terrible as "anti-Adoliners" believe. I think he's just...flat. Uninteresting. A guy who gets successes for no reason than being a likable guy. And that's not interesting to read. I'd rather watch a character struggle and overcome their personal flaws (Kaladin or Dalinar), or watch a character do everything they can to avoid progression out of self preservation (Shallan) because it's much more interesting to me. And I get frustrated that any discussion revolving around Adolin immediately sees people flock to his defense any time someone brings forth criticism of him, because criticism of a character and discussion of their flaws should be encouraged, as well as discussion of their virtues. However, we have numerous examples of pro-/anti-Adolin discussion occurring across the Shard, and a lot of it is the same thing over and over. So yes. I think the discussion of this thread should stick to its intended purpose--a place for people to be able to discuss why they don't like Adolin, without needing to defend their views from those who think he's a good character. And vice versa.
  5. Respectfully, you and I will disagree with this every time from the looks of it. It's not Shallan being "in love" with Adolin (I don't think she actually is. Rather, she's in love with the idea of him, but that's a tangent wholly unrelated to this thread.) that upsets me, it's how Shallan's relationship with Adolin systematically destroyed who she is. I don't think Adolin is good for her, and I am personally disgusted by how well her relationship with him is received when the cost of their relationship is so high for her. But I'm much more neutral in my reception of Adolin as a character than others would be here--I just don't like him when it comes to Shallan. Now, let me be clear--I am speaking to anyone who already has or may enter this thread: I am not moderation. I do not have any moderation authority. However, I think it is silly for someone who loves or even likes Adolin, who thinks he's an awesome character, to enter a thread titled "Adolin disgust thread" to discuss him. They would not agree with almost everything being said. It would be equally silly for me to enter the thread called "Shallan Davar disgust thread" and talk about how awesome a character she is. And that's coming from the self-ascribed #1 Shallan fan (seriously...anyone want to fight me for that title? I'll take you on.) Take what you will, but I don't think it's a problem for people to have a place to talk about why they dislike or are disgusted with the character, without the need to fight the opposite side. I also don't think it's a problem for people to have threads labeled "Why I like Adolin" or any other number of pro-Adolin threads out there with the same criteria. People are allowed to have their own interpretations. Some may find Adolin interesting or Adolin and Shallan together interesting--I find their relationship personally abhorrent. That's okay, we're allowed to disagree. But expect that if you're going to enter this thread intending to discuss Adolin's virtues, you're going to get opposition--this is just the wrong place to do that.
  6. I don't know. There's a pairing in the second Mistborn series that is exceptionally well done in my opinion. But I've often found that romance is usually not very good in most fantasy/epic fantasy--if it's a plot point at all, it's usually a subplot, so it gets focused on less and therefore doesn't develop quite as well as we would like. I can think of a couple of romances Brandon's written that are actually good though--so that shows that when he wants to, he can write a good romance. Unless your definition of romance is a long, drawn out, will-they, won't-they. In which case you're right, he's absolutely terrible You know, this is called the "Adolin Disgust" thread...right? Coming in here to defend Adolin would be like me going into the "Shallan Disgust" thread to defend her virtues... Not to be overly critical, but saying he's not a Mary Sue relies on an equally subjective interpretation of the text. The OP wasn't saying Adolin is a Mary Sue because he can fight, but rather that Adolin doesn't have to struggle to achieve anything in the narrative--all of his achievements seem to have occurred in the background. Which is the definition of a Mary Sue (in the "doesn't have to struggle or fight to achieve their goals" definition). Further, he's universally well-liked and none of his seeming flaws are ever considered by other characters in-world as particularly important, and if those flaws are considered, they're usually treated as endearing traits rather than something that need to be overcome. Again, this is the definition of a Mary Sue (or Marty or Gary Stu, since we're talking about a guy) as well. And with respect, Adolin only really appears to be self-doubting with regards to a certain individual. Most of the time he appears rather confident, so I don't know that I'd call that a trait as much as a quirk of a specific situation. Now...all that said... Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You get an upvote.
  7. I think that is a distinct possibility. I was just trying to curb the idea that it'll be an entirely new story--it'll be a new overarcing plotline in the same story, rather than a new cast of characters or situations or whatever. A Part 2, if you will.
  8. This is actually one of the problems with using WoBs for clarification--at a glance it does appear to contradict what I said, but if you look at respective dates on the WoBs, you'll notice both of mine were from near the end of 2018 (a few months ago), whereas yours is from Dec. 2017 (over a year ago). That said, "kind of another story" within a ten book series, with it being the second of two five book arcs, doesnt mean the same thing as "a different story set in the same world". Its vague enough to be interpreted as a different story, but added to later clarification I believe it still means what I said.
  9. True. And I was just adding my thoughts.
  10. That's a very, very small segment within The Shadow Rising. I think the matter of scale is part of the problem, but also I'd equate the situation of which you're speaking to the Shattering of Adonasium--a historic event that had catastrophic consequences across the respective "world" (planet in the case of Randland, universe in the case of the Cosmere). Odium's a very small big bad in retrospect (I don't actually think Odium's going to be our major contender for the final Cosmere story), not to mention the fact that you're equating ten huge books in the middle of the Cosmere narrative to a pretty short flashback in a fourteen-book series. I also don't think the Dark One and Odium are on the same respective par. There is nothing greater than the Dark One within The Wheel of Time, but Odium has several other entities of equal magnitude within the Cosmere, any of which could end up being the big bad for the series, so no, I don't think the entirety of SA would be analogous to the single instance of the Bore being opened.
  11. Um, I wouldn't call The Shadow Rising as the section where the main antagonist is set free, having read the series twice--it doesn't even have a tragic ending, especially not in comparison to later books like The Fires of Heaven. You might have a case for Lord of Chaos, or even better Knife of Dreams. That's not entirely accurate. Brandon has said that books 6-10 will be a continuation of the same story and same characters, but that book five will be the end of the first major arc.
  12. theory

    Where I disagree with is this being a sign of Adolin's love for Shallan is the language that he uses. The language he uses in the scene in question treats her like property, rather than a profession of desire for her happiness. "I'll let him have you" doesn't imply to me that Adolin is concerned for Shallan's happiness, it implies that he's handing her off to someone he sees as better than himself (and this is supported by general envy he feels throughout the book). Like she were a package he were handing to the "proper" recipient, rather than letting her make her own decision. That said, I think that the angle of which you're speaking that someone who loves someone else that deeply being willing to let someone go for their sake? Totally plausible. It's a recurring theme in fiction about parenthood, after all. I just don't see that level of devotion from Adolin within the text, which makes me think that Adolin isn't acting from that standpoint. That's my point exactly, Calderis. The WoB is only clear that Shallan made her choice. It says nothing of Shallan and Kaladin never getting together either--one of the possible interpretations being that Shallan and Kaladin get together after she and Adolin split. It also says nothing of Adolin--another one of the many possible interpretations is that Adolin will be the cause of the relationship failing. One of the hopes that follows the choice, then, being that Shallan and Kaladin get together when both are more whole--which would make me happy! I'd rather Shallan get together with Adolin, have things not work out, and then have a Shallan that is more together get together with Kaladin--that's infinitely better than a Shallan who's fragmented and rushes into a marriage out of desperation and then having that fall apart. And he doesn't say eventually "people" will be happy, but rather that someone who was so into the idea of Shallan and Kaladin being together that they were crying about it would be happy it went this way. There's a level of gravitas here that is being completely overlooked. Further, all theories are subjective until proven accurate. This is a fantasy series, and while Brandon does a good job of having in world explanations for why things happen, ultimately real world physics and mechanics do not hold absolute law. Opinion can still be backed and supported by the text. Subjective views can be given weight with well thought-out analysis. Just because the discussion is character development or relationships does not demean the value of that analysis and argument. Finally, your last paragraph is absolutely the definition of what I spoke of in terms of give and take within a discussion. You said, and I quote: We're debating theory here. It's character theory, but it's just as much valid theory as your beloved realmatics. Until it is explicitly confirmed in text or by Brandon (and by explicitly I mean that there is absolutely no other way to interpret it), all discussion is opinion and speculation. The fact that you demand undeniable refutation in discussion, yet use subjective and debatable WoBs to support your statements is the height of hypocrisy within the discussion setting. And with respect, This is the exact complaint that has been had for over a year now. Anyone who expresses a dissenting opinion from the majority is jumped on or beaten to death with the majority opinion, despite well thought out and considered analysis, despite repeated efforts to make the dissenting ideas heard, because some people are unwilling to let anyone that doesn't share their opinion or pat them on the back have a win. Discussion is give and take. Meaning you have to be willing to accept that some people are allowed to have opposing views, and that sometimes the minority opinion is just as valid as the majority opinion.
  13. theory

    You misunderstood anagram's point completely. What she speaks of is the natural give and take of a couple in love. The point to her argument is not that a contract is required to bind the other to you--it is that your entire being shifts, becomes focused on that single individual. You want to be their everything--you want them to come to you first when they need help, to take your advice without going to other people, to be the one that is first and foremost in their mind. At the same time, you devote yourself to them, to their needs, their wants, often sacrificing things you've dreamed of because their happiness, love, and attention becomes so important thing to you. It does become a demand--a relationship is give and take, not give only. Trust isn't the issue--it's that the relationship becomes less about two people and more about the two of you together. People show affection in a variety of different ways. This is opinion. Yes, people show affection in a variety of different ways. There is also romantic affection and platonic affection. Adolin shows much of the latter, little of the former. I challenge you to find me five examples of explicitly romantic affection that is initiated by Adolin, and not initially forced on him by Shallan. This is also opinion. And considering the number of people that feel dissatisfied that are purportedly more "invested" in book relationships than you--as you yourself have said multiple times--perhaps this should be an indication that this actually needed to be in the book. I, for one, would have felt a lot better about Adolin and Shallan if there were obvious signs of romantic interest from Adolin to Shallan, instead of only from Shallan to Adolin. I've said it before, and I'll say it again here--Shallan and Adolin don't act like a couple in love. They are depicted like friends who have suddenly decided to try out dating--awkward, unsure of where or how to step, and acting as they think a couple in love should behave, rather actually being depicted as a couple truly in love. You may agree or disagree--that's fine. Calderis, you can't have it both ways. You have a bad habit of using WoBs to try to shoot down any opinion that doesn't line up with your own, yet there are other, more recent WoBs where Brandon has said repeatedly that it's not necessarily over. Even in the one you quoted just now, Brandon said "Shallan made her choice." Note, the language here was whether or not Shalladin would be a thing. Also note that Brandon said only slightly later in the comments: " If it's any comfort, tell her I think she'll eventually be very pleased it went this way. It might take a few more books, though." Why would he say that? Could it be that Shallan isn't in a good headspace and that had she chosen Kaladin things might have ended in disaster? Could it be that whatever relationship Shallan entered in would be doomed to failure because of existing problems? These are just two alternatives in a plethora of examples that would fall under "subversive" writing. Further, WoBs are a secondary resource that is mutable by the writer's mental state. They are accurate only so long as the author is still saying the same thing--and Brandon has retracted on "confirming" that the triangle is effectively over, regressing from statements such as "Shallan made her choice" to "RAFO". This indicates to me that Brandon's mind isn't as made up as it first appeared following Oathbringer's release. Your arguments would be better received if they were backed up from the text, but while you are quick off the cuff with a WoB to support your arguments, when it comes to textual evidence your arguments are often lacking, and when someone else quotes the books themselves you have a bad habit of replying with things such as "Well this is the way I read it," without any other support to your comments. This is extremely frustrating to those who put forth effort to quote the books and formulate their theories, only to have you dismiss it out of hand without any careful consideration. Part of good discussion, which I'd like to remind everyone here of doing--is taking what someone else says that may be different from your own thoughts and giving it value. Professing that you've "changed opinions before" because of other peoples' arguments is irrelevant--if you're not willing to bend here, then perhaps you need to take a breather and return when you've a more level head. Discussion, like relationships, is give and take. If you've drawn a line in the sand that you absolutely can't cross, that means you are unwilling to give, and only take--so agree to disagree and move on. Clearly they're not going to convince you to change, and you're not going to convince them.
  14. I also disagree with Lightweaver possibility for Adolin. If you compare him to the two we've seen on screen, he is totally different in mentality, philosophy, ideology...simply admitting a truth--and admitting it at a convenient time that would allow him to get out of something he doesnt want--is hardly Lightweaver material. Dustbringer is a possibility I have always thought likely, considering his destructive potential and capabilities, along with the fact that the spren of Dustbringers seem to put their Radiants under less moral obligations than some others (such as Windrunners). I imagine Dustbringers wouldnt have had an issue with Sadeass murder as well, given what we've learned from Malata and Spark. Also, I've mentioned this before, but has anyone considered the possibility that Maya might not be a "normal" cultivationspren if she is restored? We dont know how corrupted spren think/act differently to their normal counterparts. Wouldnt it make an interesting story if Mayas restoration resulted in different ideals than standard Cultivationspren?
  15. I think you're misunderstanding the point here--swearing the ideals and having the traits are co-symptomatic. Someone who can progress through those ideals will inherently exhibit those traits. To not have those traits and try to speak those oaths would be like a sociopath trying to fit in with a group of empaths. I can't see a situation where a knight radiant could swear the ideals, but not mean them. It's not a simple act of obedience to a letter--the oaths shape the very core of the knight who makes them. They may not embody the traits to the same degree as another--I doubt you'd describe Teft or Lopen as "protective" as Kaladin, but Teft, Lopen, and Kaladin all share similar traits--those of standing up for others, of holding to one's own and trying to do the right thing in a given circumstance, even if they all have different ways of going about it. Keep in mind also that "loving" and "healing" come are ascribed traits of Edgedancers in-world. That may not necessarily be the actual traits they embody, but rather the perceived traits associated with that Order. Just some food for thought.