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Inquisitor #5

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  1. To quote that one Death Rattle: "I know now why you do what you do, and I hate you for it." ¤_¤
  2. As Hoid's narration notes: -Tress, chapter 64 Even if it's not a huge threat, it's probably a large enough threat that he'd not wish to confront her. Now, I think that a sufficiently skilled/intelligent and prepared Elantrian is one of the most dangerous opponents you could face, wholly apart from the Awakened soldiers and Midnight Essence she also commands. I think the simple explanation that it's pre-Awakened might be correct, like Vasher's "upon call"-Commands. Either that or vague dragon magic (or whatever it is that creates the structure and the corridor down.) The message is noted as being in a particular container, which I imagine might be significant. -Tress, chapter 50 I'd assume that he's got something, a device, an "enchantment" (like something Aonic) or something set up to detect objects within certain specified parameters. Whatever the mechanism is, it then alerts him of a hit. I don't think that he's actively dedicating power and concentration to this. I could imagine that some people offer themselves in exchange for a boon for someone else, in addition to people being enslaved forcefully. We also don't know how many 'servants' he actually needs, so the population might not need topping up very often, and he indicates that they don't suffer from disease. Tress, chapter 52 So they should have longer lives, on average. Also, depending on exactly what the situation is, some of them might breed. The tablet he might have made, assuming it's an Awakened device. Ann's prescription, magic of some variety, combined with enough knowledge. Salay's father... who the heck knows... Invested tech that we don't get to look at because it's not that kind of story? Something analogous to whatever's keeping tabs on his part of the ocean? See what I quoted earlier, he might just not want to take the gamble. Seems to be a bit like why you don't see Antarctic researchers very often, or the hermit halfway up the mountain, it's a hassle to get there. Also, there might not be that many of them. I don't think we know enough to say, the closest we see, outside of bargaining with a dragon, is debt slavery. People in debtors' prisons can be pressed into service, but not a word about being sold. Also, even if they do have slave markets, who would he send to buy slaves? The ones he has aren't allowed in the hallway when the door is open, so that they won't get any silly ideas about the outside world. ¤_¤
  3. Yes, they are propelled by Steelpushing, but they don't push off grounded anchors, as far as we know. The Wilg in Bands uses a Push to launch and to drive the fans and, beyond the additional machinery required to cheat the physics for something so massive, we have no reason to suspect that the proper airships work under other principles. -BoM, chapter 21 -BoM, chapter 21 This pretty clearly indicates that while a Push is a viable method of launch, what gives lift once you're in the air is the fan. -BoM, chapter 21 And here we see that propulsion is also via fans, not (directly) Pushes. -BoM, chapter 31 (Quote slightly inaccurate, my browser is not allowing me to bold or itallicise, "half" should be in itallics.) -tLM, chapter 7 All this suggests that all known southern designs are moved with the fans, not Steelpushes. Pushes appear to power the fans, but don't seem to be directly involved in moving the ships. Such a design would also be highly irresponsible, as the ships would have to periodically drop new Allomantic anchors onto an unsuspecting surface, possibly with people on it. It also would not work over deep water, because the anchors would sink out of reach and it would require ships to carry extra metal, which could be a significant weight, unless they can also lessen the weight of cargo. -tLM, chapter 40 Assuming that Kelsier is on an airship that follows the same principle as every airship we've seen on "screen" and not a totally different model that works on direct Pushes, the above definitely implies that he has access to travel by Steelpush, be that under his own power, via an ettmetal powered harness or just strapped to a coinshot. To me it definitely reads as "traveling by Steelpush, which is an alternative I have, would be faster than the airship, but there happens to be an ocean, so that's not viable." Ideally none of them are, that seems to be something that you use a primer cube for, so long as you're not out of ettmetal. I agree with you on this. It's a lie by omission to the reader, implying (and reinforcing what we seemingly learned in BoM) that Kelsier is still an Allomancer. However, we don't know what his agents know, he might be keeping them in the dark or they might know that he has some means of accessing it outside his own powers, we only know that they don't contradict him on it. I have a few ideas: At times he seems similar to how Leras was close to when he died, not capable of much. Wax has to tell him to act himself, not just arrange the pieces and hope they move as he wants. There's probably some disconnect between the Vessel and the Shard(s), like we've seen in Stormlight. The person wants one thing, the power(s) another. He probably still cares about Kelsier, as a person due to the connection between Sazed and Kell, as a splinter (or something like it) and sliver of Preservation, through his Connection to Ruin. He probably does not want to oppose Kelsier or be opposed by him. We also know that the Ruin/Preservation imbalance that allowed Ruin to become more powerful in the past isn't fixed, and will probably only get worse as Scadrial's population grows. That bodes ill. Then Sazed is being shaped by two opposed Intents, which I wouldn't be suprised if it takes a larger/quicker toll on the Vessel than a standard Shard. Because of the conflicting Intents he can barely act already, so it might be hard to do that kind of planning. Add to the above that he's protecting Scadrial, which may or may not mean that Ruin is chomping at the bit the entire way. And on the Intents, it can be hard for him to act without fighting either Intent, so the power might not be held as well as it could be. It wouldn't be strange if he's also afraid of showing weakness at the moment, so he tries to hide it. All of this to say that even if he admits that something is happening to him and he wants to stop it, he might not be able, or nearly so, to plan against it. Also, he might not want to admit weakness to Kelsier in particular, because he might get ideas. There's also this bit from the Ars Arcanum that is quite distressing: -tLM, Ars Arcanum To me that sounds capital B Bad. That seems fundamentally wrong and reads as a very bad sign. With all the little mentions of Harmony being erratic or the shadow behind him or whatever, from several sources, and the above, it seems the balance of Harmony is very much unstable and possibly not even really there. Apologies if this is all too wordy or hard to follow. ¤_¤
  4. Presumably they didn't keep the main well closed forever, so she would have simply gotten out when they removed the lid.
  5. It bothers me that everything in Era 2 ties back to Trell. Nothing in Miles' pov implies that he didn't pick up Trellism independently, but then it turns out that he picked it up from the Set they are Trell people too, making it not just zealotry from Miles. ¤_¤
  6. Apologies if this is out of line, but you might want to consider pinning this thread?
  7. Entirely to toot my own horn: It definitely has some discussion on the topic. ¤_¤
  8. There's always the hacky solution of "energy is siphoned into the Spiritual," the eternal crutch for fudging cosmere physics. I'm not saying that is the case here, mind, but that it's a possible solution. I suppose the likeliest explanation is that Brandon got the physics wrong, given the answer. However, the Blade should still be cold, ergo condensation should happen, even if we don't know what happens to the rest of the physics. ¤_¤
  9. Why? Does it have to involve Intent? Is the effect triggered or always on? How is this different from Fabrials? Presumably the "right metals" would be the sixteen. I don't think valour is the same as endangering the self needlessly, which reads more like idiocy to me. Gambling with your extremities just seems like a bad idea. Can anyone actually become proficient in this without a high cost of human life and suffering? So if you get it wrong you risk increasing their agony for no reward? Why? What kind of effect? Can they choose to move on? Are they bound to the spike/body? Is the body preserved or does the magic have a shelf life? Does being able to interact with the CS follow from witnessing the effect when produced or from entering its area of effect? If the CS is anchored to the spike and can't move on of their own accord, this is a very cruel thing to do. If the effect is permanent (body preserved), the CS can also enjoy such things as everyone they loved dying and their home crumbling, in addition to the mental strain and Intent warping that CS:s experience eventually. I don't like it. "Lolrandom" chaos for the sake of chaos isn't fun. I feel like the Shards should have some underlying, immutable nature, Preservation is always Preservation, Valor is always Valor, Whimsy is always Whimsy. I'd rather see something like a broad-spectrum system, power is always drawn, but the exact way it manifests has variance. So, if we use A-pewter as a base, the exact physical enhancements could vary, like getting more speed and less strength, but the same attributes would be affected each time. I could also see a system stemming from Whimsy as feeling unfinished, something like if Feruchemy had physical speed and memory, but not mental speed and strength. I would also like to say, as someone with both ADHD and BPD, that each fancy is a concrete thing in the moment. I'd rather extrapolate that each system emanating from Whimsy is stable and concrete, but that there's very little consistency between the systems. I also feel that just touching metal would be a far too easy way to access Investiture. That's also a question, do the metals burn off in any of these systems? Isn't this basically AonDor? That sounds needlessly restrictive, to the tune of "sorry, we can't help you, R&D hasn't figured out a new healing spell yet." You also have no room to experiment, as each new design that works is instantly used up the moment you draw it. How is enemy defined? What happens if you do this and the person survives? Why would providing them peace turn them into a CS? Is turning them into a CS not an effect? Why do you get to dictate someone else's emotional state? Is their emotional state permanently altered? That's a high bar to entry, especially as you have to put it all together before they pass into the Beyond. Also, making someone a CS without their consent isn't merciful. This sounds like the ruins and artefacts are generated by the magic, rather than being extant. I'm getting strong D&D random sidequest vibes. What determines the symbols? Shouldn't symbols from a different civilisation have their own power, rather than gain new powers from being Indiana Jonesed? I don't think that would work. How does the Cognitive aspect of the object become a spren? What ramifications does this have for the object? What decides if something is interesting? What happens if the thing you make is a standard fabrial? I feel like a bead could not be taken from the Cognitive to the Physical, or that managing that would do something funky. Also, a change in the Physical isn't immediately reflected in the Cognitive. Building a wall won't instantly cause the stones to stop being individual beads in the Cognitive. The reverse is also true, see Dalinar "healing" the statue in Oathbringer. So the object probably wouldn't be "a thing" at the point of creation. What does power mean? Where does the power come from? Is there a maximum effective range? What happens if you make something like a really good chair? How would powering it and controlling it affect it? I don't like this, Gravitation isn't actually flight. Would a badly tuned music box, or one playing an ear-worm, let you Riot? I get that this is probably based on the concept of sharing ideas, but I don't really like it. I think any time someone speaks directly into another's mind, there's a Connection between them, so I'm curious how this works mechanically. I mean, this is basically the Nahel bond. I think it's too similar. Who judges these qualities? Is there any margin for error, or is being human enough to guarantee that the bond will break at some point? Does the bond breaking hurt the spren? I wouldn't be suprised if "knowledgespren" or "learningspren" or "informationspren" or "scholarspren" or somesuch weren't a thing already. What does "know" mean in this case? Does the spren understand what it means or does it know the words? How is "learn" defined? Do you have to memorise every word and illustration? Do you have to understand the contents? What happens if the text has room for interpretation? Depending on what "remember" means here, storing memories seems like a very risky prospect. Not only could you break the bond by storing your memory of what's in the book, but any stored memory should be impossible to retrieve if the bond breaks at all. What's the power source? Is visualisation necessary? If so, does trying to do the thing, but not as the commander thought it would be done, not work? What happens if people are ordered to do something physically impossible, like fly under their own power? Is trying to stop the enemy not pretty much an implicit command on the battlefield? Is there an upper bound or time limit? Is colour drained? I apologise if I come off as stand-offish, I find things I disagree with engaging. ¤_¤
  10. Yeah, I'm perfectly willing to accept that it signifies a parent-child relationship. Or master-apprentice. Or probably both intertwined. This is fair. I shouldn't be suprised at the person who dissected Ba-Ado-Mishram also hitting on this. Yes, I definitely think that babsk shares a root. Heh, I keep having to adjust my pronounciation of Stormlight words based on realisations like this. In this case bah-bsk, rather than bab-sk. I'd assume, based on this and rebsk, that the "bsk" morpheme means something along the lines of possesor, owner, master. Sidenote, I love how this thread has gone from the nature of the Unmade, Fused and Voidbinding, and theorising on the motivation and capabilities of Rayse/Odium, to discussing Vorin linguistics. I may have a huge inability to drop interesting lines of thought. Thank you! This is so helpful. I think something like Central Vorin vowel shift is accurate then, including West Vorin and East Vorin, but not North or South Vorin. Hmm, possible. I feel like there has to have been some drift in "Mishim" as well, be it spelling or sound, because otherwise giving it as "Mishim" and not "Cultivation" feels like an unfair withholding of information. I also find the "rebranding" of a moon strange. I'm not saying you're wrong, mind, but that it feels like something that would "fossilize" linguistically. Like how several days of the week in English still refer to Germanic gods. Though I suppose it might have been a similar thing to how the reading of "YHWH" (יהוה) was lost. IIRC, only the Kohen Gadol (Jewish high priest) was allowed to speak it, but only under very specific circumstances. When texts were read aloud, "YHWH" was substituted with "adonai" (אֲדוֹנָי), meaning lord. One snag in this is of course that people seem to have no problem saying either "honor" or "Honor." A possible explanation might be how the language and religion has drifted. Nobody seems to automatically equate "Honor" and "Almighty," so any taboo around speaking the word "merem" might have been abandoned as the religion evolved, but not before people had started substituting the name of the moon. Wouldn't it just? Yeah, that sounds reasonable to me. I can believe Odium ordering one to be subordinate to another for specific operations, like Thaylen City or Urithiru, but not that there's a rigid chain of command. I'd also guess that they are generally outside the chain of command of Odium's forces. Mishram might be a competent enough strategist/tactician to be given a local command, but I don't think she'd be appointed supreme commander. I'd say they probably fall somewhere between commando units and superweapons. (Ashertmarn was enough to severely undermine a major city, for example.) ¤_¤
  11. If everything posited before is true, probably yes. Pretty sure the spark of Preservation in Scadrian humanity is already doing that. And I don't think Nightblood burns through anywhere near enough Investiture to make a noticable difference. It'd probably be like pouring a glass of salt water into a lake. Or, more accurately, a brackish sea I guess. Why would this happen because of an imbalance? Is that not just a different interpretation of two diametrically opposed powers? The interpretation of Harmony is both in balance, or something like that, no? If one were to see them as irreconcialable, one may end up with something like Discord, or Volatility, or Chaos. I see that as simply being stuck between two powers that want fundamentally different things. Acting in accordance with one is in direct opposition to the other. Remember how Leras couldn't slash Elend? How he felt a backlash even though he wasn't the one to bring the knife down? Sazed presumably has to deal with a similar thing whenever he tries to do basically anything, each power strains against that which goes against its Intent. ¤_¤
  12. I'll quibble child of the Lights of Honor and Cultivation. Child of Honor and Cultivation, yes. Child of the Lights, unknown. AFAIK, we don't actually know that 1), bah means child, 2), the Ba in BAM is related to the Thaylen bah. We have the data point of Rysn bah-Vstim, but nothing else. We also know the Alethi for "child of," the particle -()en, presumably. Seen in "child of peace," Oro(d)en. Based on the fact that Adolin and Kaladin are Adoda and Kalak, respectively, plus "born unto," given as -in, but both add a different sound between the base word and the ending. Therefore Ado(l)in and Kala(d)in, and I'm assuming that this is generally true for ending particles. Alethi and Thaylen end up with very different words if both of these mean "child of." Now, Alethi and Thaylen aren't closely related, and I will concede that the proto-Vorin word could be something like *ba(h)n, given that Alethi is built to be Semitic, which means that the rest of the Vorin languages also should be. Basing it on the Hebrew "Ben-" (בן) and Arabic "ibn" (ابن). If this is close to accurate, Alethi and Thaylen diverge before the Alethi vowel shift (Central Vorin vowel shift? Somebody ask Brandon if Veden also has the a->e shift.) In any case, we don't have enough information to make the declarative statement that this is 100% true. Yes. Just as in Adolin and Zeradoreh (Stormlight). Presumably also something like "Javadovah" for Lifelight. Yes. Though that makes me wonder, if Mishim is providing the meaning of Cultivation, why doesn't Nomon line up with "maram" in any way? I disagree, I don't think we have enough data to say for sure. This I agree with, she might even be a spren like the Stormfather, one that wasn't really created. This is exactly what I'm getting at, we don't know that Mythica is basing this on anything more than the False Desolation. Yes, that is reasonable. I just don't think Mythica can be counted as an entirely reliable source. Makes me wonder about how much of a hierarchy there is among the Unmade. They generally seem to not act within the command structure of Odium's forces. Definitely had a large effect on Spren. Yes, but I think that this is entirely a result of the backlash of the sealing, not an active part of her power set. And I think that her sealing's effect on the Sibling isn't separate from its effect on other spren. ¤_¤
  13. Oh, it's been too long since this has been on my mind. I can't recall my exact thoughts at the time, but here goes. Hmm, this makes sense. Progression has been shown to not just heal, but make things grow. If indeed Voidbinding generally exists in the gaps of Surgebinding, then a Voidish expression of Progression should show more Cognitive/Spiritual manifestations, compared to the generally Physical manifestations of Surgebinding. This could explain how Sja-anat is able to alter Cognitive beings. Though Renarin throws a wrench into this understanding. While his usage of Progression seems to pull toward the Spiritual in a notable way, it still heals normally on top of that. Then again, we've never seen Sja-anat Elighten a spren in detail. Of course, Sja-anat has access to more Investiture than Renarin, and she has more experience with her powers. Hmm, I don't know if I've mentioned it in this thread, but I did have a theory a while back that the Unmade line up with the attributes taken to an unhealthy extreme. Add to this a thought I had while going through this (which I will credit to how much Persona I've been playing lately), the attributes aren't opposites in the Unmade, they are "reversed." The same idea in a negative direction. Funnily enough, Sja-anat lines up with Wise and Careful, but corrupted Loving and Healing. (Though how corrupted Loving is is up for debate.) She's careful to not be found out in her game of 5d chess with Rayse and very self-reflective (ha!). She however "heals" unasked for and loves the outcast that she made that way. She's also incredibly cold and calculating when she needs to be, what with the whole sacrificing some children so others may live. This whole thing is very interesting, and can probably be connected to this WoB as well: The spren that show up in the Physical as reflected light are the ones that are most amenable to Sja-anat. Oddly mistspren are one order over from this placement of Sja-anat though. Light does seem to be an overarching theme here in any case. Interestingly, Enlightened mistspren take the form of a crystal instead, changing their relationship to light. I don't think there's much to this, no other Enlightened spren are described as crystalline, IIRC. Eh, I'm not so sure about this. I'm pretty sure that the Unmade generally go where Odium wants them. Yelig-Nar, Sja-anat and Ashertmarn are all in Kholinar at the time. I'm not inclined to ascribe too much to the connections on the charts, beyond the general connection to the pre- and succeding orders. And this thing: Which is already kinda tenuous. And now I wonder how much of Renarin's weirdness is Truthwatcher, how much is an Enlightened spren and how much is both. Anyway... Makes sense. Both brave and obedient are twisted or broken here. Brave, as you've noted, in that the Thrill makes you fearless rather than brave. Obedient in that, well, berserker rage. Discipline and order is broken entirely. This doesn't entirely fit with my idea of the attributes being negative versions of themselves, but hey. Hmm. I don't agree with that, I think it's just a representation of battle/fighting. Yep, full agreement on Moelach. Yep Heh, neat. I'd not put too much stock in the body focuses, but maybe there's something there. That makes an odd amount of sense. I don't see it. So it seems. I think we can look at it as similar to Moelach, the Surges are basically trust upon you, it's not something you come into over time, ie. it's not built up, you're just saddled with the power without learning to use it. Similarly, you don't become resolute by building (heh) yourself up. You become resolute or you die, which honestly reminds me of psychological trauma. Again, I disagree with this. In this case, multiple parts of Rayse's plan hinges on Nergaoul's influence, and Yelig-Nar is held in a gemstone and granted to Amaram as a reward. Both of them are there because Rayse wants them there. Given what I said above, I think this is pretty tenuous. I find "Odium wanted them there" to be a more plausible and elegant explanation. Agree I agree on the connection. Countersurge, good word. These I find to be very tenuous, if the Unmade indeed align/misalign with the attributes, I'd connect them to the nature of the given Unmade. We haven't seen anything that we know is of Chemoarish, so I don't think we can speculate on how the attributes relate to her. It seems out of place that the attributes would apply to the lore surrounding the Unmade, rather than the Unmade itself. So it does. As explained above, I don't think the attributes can be connected to the lore around the Ummade. We also basically don't know anything about Dai-Gonarthis, so it's again hard to map the attibutes. I don't think that tracks, as far as we know, Change has been sitting in the mural basically unknown for ages. It was also "inert" as far as the Sleepless knew, they didn't think that anyone could get it. We also know very little about the Scouring. Yes We don't actually know this, it's possible that her leadership role is wholly based on the False Desolation. Leading may also be twisted in that she simply asserts herself as a god, rather than, well, earning the trust of her people or anything remotely like that. I don't think that the consequences of her sealing can relate to the corruption of protecting, as that wasn't done by her. Interestingly, her prosecuting the war seemingly for her own self-aggrandizement clashes with the ostensible goal of the Fused, freeing/protecting the singers. Yes Ehh, given that we're told it hurt all Roshar, I don't think the connection is particularly close or significant. How so? I can't recall BAM having any confirmed ability to affect spren or other Cognitive beings. She seems to have been able to do like a Bondsmith and make Light, and she could somehow supply Regal forms, but I'm not willing to say that she has any known ability to directly affect Cognitive entities this way. The fact that her sealing apparently broke almost an entire species in a fundamental way I don't think counts for her power-set, just like a Lashing running out doesn't give a Gravitation user the power of breaking someone's bones. All-in-all, I think this is incredibly well-reasoned. Colour me mostly convinced, though I obviously have some quibbles left. ¤_¤
  14. Given that he throws Adolin backward with his strike and breaks his wrist by slapping the Blade from his hand, to name just two instances, it feels like there's more than just a bit of strength enhancement to me. Sure, the lower gravity of Roshar should mean lower bone density, but also a corresponding decrease in muscular strength, no? I am not denying that Szeth has martial training different from what's found in the Vorin kingdoms, but that doesn't mean that the Alethi aren't trained. War is their business, it's noted that boys are learning the sword at age five. -RoW, chapter 16 Szeth is also described as being noticably smaller than Dalinar: -RoW, chapter 85 Now, the height can probably be chalked up to "storming Alethi and their long legs." But this tells us that Szeth isn't physically imposing. His constant physical activity should mean that he's physically fit of course, but I'm not sure how easily that would let him crack someone's ribs with a punch. In any case, I'm not sure how much Szeth's martial arts training does or doesn't help him, compared to Alethi martial training. I will freely admit that I do not have personal familiarity with martial arts beyond judo and longsword, so I can't judge what is and isn't reasonable to see from hand-to-hand strikes. True. The question then is what the threshold for this to noticeably start happening. I suppose that once he got the assassination list, his Stormlight consumption rose dramatically, as he didn't just use his powers to kill, but also to travel. And given that he notes that Light lasts for minutes at most for him, he'd need to take in a lot of it. Hmm. Not unreasonable. Assuming that this is an Honorblade function, and he's on the path to Honorblade savantism. Interesting. Fair enough, I'm obviously in the former camp. Heh, the funny thing is, the way this is phrased, I disagree. I see it as a function of the Honorblades, not the Heralds. General Mistborn: This seems likely, though we haven't seen enough Heralds with their Blades to judge, IMO. Fair enough, that was just a thought that struck me. A few things, I think. Their strength may be enhanced, but they are still all fleshy. Trying to use said increased strength to break a rock monster will just end with your soft, squishy body yielding before the rock does. Depending on the mechanics of said enhancement, there may be some point where it plateaus, and there's only so much Investiture to feed into it in any given moment. Mistborn: Do you ever encounter a question that makes you realise you've taken something for granted with no actual support for it? I've assumed that the Heralds can't use their abilities when not incarnated. And the same for the Fused. Oh, I hadn't even realised that there were other interpretations than this. Yes. I think that they have/had an unlimited supply, but could only draw in so much at once. And they must have a "saturation point," so to speak. There is a threshold to how much Investiture you can pump into any given system. Now, the Heralds might be able to handle more at once than your average mortal, but an arbitraty amount at any given time. I definitely think that the Heralds at their peak were below that level of power. To me, this is not a problem of the ability persisting or not. It's a problem of either what's at the other end (not all of Honor/Honor in pieces/a small part of Honor) or the conduit between them being damaged somehow. The Honorblade itself should not have changed. Well, possibly Jezrien's post his true death, depending on whether there's more than just the bond to the Blade between Herald and Blade. But that is of course not a direct consequence of Honor's Splintering. Hmm, what an interesting point of view. That seems such an odd distinction for people to make. I'd assume that the power the Heralds can draw from Honor is Stormlight. What else would it be? As you said that you brought these things up for disclosure, rather than arguing for them, I'm obviously not arguing against you here. The ideas condensed in your post are however interesting to comment on. Good question. It looks to me like he has generally avoided using his Surgebinding openly. Fair enough. I suppose the thing is that he doesn't seem to draw in Light. Then again, Bondsmiths seem to just break rules left and right. Dalinar doesn't need Light to infuse Radiants or open the perpendicularity, it seems. As I've stated above, I don't think they were on this level. Powerful to a ridiculous degree? Yes. To that degree? No. If nothing else for the reason that there are ten of them, so the power would be divided between them. Though I think there are other reasons as well, like Ah. I will say openly that I hate the Soulcasting from the Cognitive idea. I don't think it should work. I'm prepared to accept it does, but it doesn't feel right. And I know there's the deleted scene of Jasnah doing it. I suppose it could be specifically an Elsecaller thing, being able to use the power transcending Realms, because Jasnah needed to be more powerful. I could see what you posit working, even with my more limited Investiture allowance. Surgebinding is wild. I can imagine. ¤_¤
  15. That's fair. I think that we can speculate based on this WoB, however: Perception matters, if someone doesn't think/know something is possible, it's maybe not impossible, but at least less possible. If, as one of the WoBs @Pathfinderkindly supplied IMO says outright, drawing power directly from Honor is a function of the Blades themselves, someone not knowing that this is possible presumably still couldn't do it. This of course depends on how well informed the Shin who took custodianship of the Honorblades were. I assume that that's information they'd want to pass along, just like the Blades granting Surgebinding. Heh, maybe I should have saved some of the above section for here. Yes, I find this very likely. The Shin (or at least whatever subdivision of the Shin have Honorblade knowhow) are aware of the power granting bit, but not their full functions. There's also the fact that Szeth seems to have a perk that Radiants do not: -both WoK, interlude I-9 -WoK, chapter 71 -WoR, chapter 85 Contrast all of this with what we learn in Oathbringer: Oathbringer, chapter 120 I'd say it looks like Szeth is enhanced physically somehow with the Honorblade. I don't think that Szeth is naturally strong enough to toss people around with his attacks. In the WoR quote, it also looks like he might be quicker than he should be. Him moving could be chalked up to Lashings, but his strikes falling so fast? Oh, that makes a lot of sense. A looot. A scary amount of sense. I like it! It also makes for a neat balancing act, as the Honorblades already use a "dangerous" amount of Light (or presumably whatever Investiture you'd manage to plug into them. Sidenote, do Honorblades natively feed on whatever Investiture, similar to Nightblood?) so drawing even more power should carry greater risks. -WoK, prologue Szeth moves enough energy out of the system to freeze his clothes to the point of crackling. Presumably in a way similar to this: -WoK, interlude I-9 Assuming that this isn't hyperbole, Szeth seems to have hit the normal human threshold for using an Honorblade here. My assumption is that if more Stormlight was added to the system, the Light escaping would damage his body faster than the limited healing of an Honorblade could heal. Presumably similar to this: Same kind of thing, but with human skin and muscle. Fun times. I'd say this, from the same sequence, lends additional support: -WoK, interlude I-9 The Light is described as pushing against his skin, which, given the WoB above, I'm inclined to believe is an actual, physical sensation. Going beyond this point should start killing any mortal, except possibly one that has consistently held Light at this level long enough for savantism to start setting in. Ishar says hi (and probably screams about being a god ) Which is a scary thought. I think it might be part perception, knowing that it's there unlocks it, and part is being whatever the Heralds are (I don't think that things like Taln's super reflexes are standard features of Cognitive Shadows, for instance), I assume that they can handle more Light at a time than a mortal for instance. It probably helps that they are (presumably) made from Honor's Investiture, they are "kin" to the Light. That's my read too, with one slight exception. -Edgedancer, chapter 19 There's also chapter 111 of RoW, where Ishar does not seem to be holding or drawing in Light (no mention of him glowing), while he clearly Surgebinds. So I think that the ability to draw power directly from Honor still persists. ¤_¤
  16. Yeah, happens to all of us. I caught something that was basically spelled out in WoK just earlier today. Well, as long as they can feel pain. Even if physical trauma doesn't last, they've still been hurt. Hmm. Good question. I can see the rules being similar but not quite the same between spren and Cognitive Shadows. Wait... -Oathbringer, chapter 16 This claims that spren and Vessels can't break their oaths. However: -RoW, chapter 112 This confirms that Vessels can break their word (which is presumably equivalent to an oath), but it hurts them. -RoW, chapter 15 Here we see first a comparison to spren, then directly the idea that Cognitive Shadows are spren inhabiting bodies. The latter I think isn't quite true, but they are something very similar to spren. So, we have a direct comparison between Cognitive Shadows and spren, and a comparison between Vessels and spren. Spren are said to not be able to break oaths, but I think it's reasonable to think that they can't break oaths in the same way that Vessels can't. They technically can, but it harms them. So, if similar rules govern spren and Vessels, and similar rules govern Cognitive Shadows and spren, then it's plausible that Vessels and Cognitive Shadows follow similar rules. So, all three can break oath, but all three are harmed by it. This might in fact be part of what happened to the other Heralds, at least the first time they gave in it hurt them Spiritually, being part of why they are so broken now. I think that a pseudo-deadeye might have a hard time breaking oath, actually. At least with Intent. Yes, I think it's a rather elegant solution. As for Taln, all the others gave in before him, and I'd think that once they gave in, assuming this damaged them as speculated above, it was probably easier for them to break subsequent times. Remember that all that's necessary for a Desolation to start is that one Herald breaks, so as long as a single other Herald broke before he did, he could have gotten through all the ancient Desolations without breaking. Just like the joke about being chased by a bear, you don't have to be the fastest, just not the slowest. We know from Kalak that it's been 7000 years, 4500 of those are Taln's Endurance Hour, this gives him 2500 years where he didn't break on account of someone else breaking first, where he had time to become more spren-like, more aligned with his Intent. Now, we don't know what that Intent is, but given that the Heralds were supposed to seal away the Fused, it's probably something to do with that. If he had 2500 years to be moulded to that Intent, without the damage incurred by breaking, then he might basically be a spren of holding the Fused back. Being much less able to break simply by his his nature at that point. I understood the spren healing to be a gradual process, they can recover with time and Light. Taln's lucidity I don't think comes from the Stormlight pouring out of the perpendicularity, but from the Spiritual being so close. A major but temporary effect. I also don't know if the rules are the exact same, though even if they are, Taln would need a way to take in Light, which he currently doesn't. Right, I'm not saying it's worse, just that the torture probably isn't a ton of distinct memories. And part of the problem for the Heralds is the memory issue. (Which I assume ties into their mental states, though I could be wrong on this.) Their minds are overwhelmed both by repeated breaking under torture and by sheer information density, they can't retain thousands of years worth of memories. The other Heralds broke, like something brittle. They are cracked, broken, shattered. Taln is ground down, never reaching a point where someting snapped or cracked, but instead the entire thing was ground into dust. In this scheme, Taln is much more thoroughly broken (ground into nothing). Does this make sense? Ah, I meant in the sense that was brought up earlier in the thread, that Taln is beyond the point where he can make a conscious choice. And seeing how the magic works, being able to do it with Intent might matter. All plausible. Entirely possible, I personally think the latter is a likelier madness and the former an effect of the torture. I suppose it depends on whether one considers it "broke" then. I would put the emphasis on "for a second," rather than "immediately." Taln is being something close to his ideal self in that moment, but it seems to have had no lasting effect on him. It's not something that I see as a solution to the problem. If one could facilitate it happening perpetually it could "work" but it doesn't actually heal the underlying problem, but bypasses it. Basically, Taln is old Taln, not healed Taln in that moment. Or so I think anyway. Well, believe it: -Oathbringer, chapter 38 And yes, Honor was, if not that stupid, that ignorant. Yeah, it would be nice for him to establish the distinction between Herald madness and mundane mental health clearly in the books, though I think that RoW has laid the groundwork to do so, now it just needs to happen. I hope that my first point has offered at least a plausible explanation for that. I feel like both of these I've also addressed, though how satisfactory or likely my ideas sound to you I don't know. ¤_¤
  17. Do you have a source on that? Because I'd think the implication is that they grant greater power than that, albeit at terrible fuel-efficiency. -Oathbringer, chapter 16 That pretty clearly indicates that someone wielding an Honorblade is something more than a regular Radiant, in a way that is somehow distinct from not having the oath restriction. Well: -WoK, prologue Yes. Or at least Szeth doesn't think it's possible. Note that he can also quickly recover from "small wounds." Honorblade healing is very much inferior to Radiant healing in every respect. "Counter," I'd say. -WoK, interlude I-9 Half-shards give you maybe three hits, maybe. Which is a vast improvement over none, sure. But if you're fighting someone in Plate, they could always do something like send you flying with a kick instead. True enough, but: -WoK, prelude This makes it fairly clear that Heralds have died, often enough that Kalak didn't expect to survive. And if anyone knew the way around the Honorblades, it'd be the Heralds, no? I think Adolin would actually be a poor candidate for one, given that Plate and Honorblades don't mix: -WoK, prologue It's of course possible that letting the Plate feed directly on his Light could work, but we don't know that (and apparently the Shin haven't found out if it's possible) and it might worsen fuel consumption even more. I don't see why not. To be fair, none of them had training fighting Surgebinders. I'm not saying it'd make all the difference, but if they knew what he could do and had trained to deal with it, they could probably have put up a better fight. And let's not forget that Gavilar got close to killing Szeth. -RoW, chapters 16 and 17, epigraphs The Fused have known about aluminium for a long time. The amount of Light is itself a risk, though. To actually do more than nitpick points made in the thread, part of me definitely wants them preserved, I hate it when unique things are damaged or destroyed. I can see the argument that they are dangerous, probably more so than a rogue Radiant (even if the spren was fine with whatever they're doing) as they are capable of so much more. (I've personally speculated that all of them actually operate on the power level of the Bondsmith Blade, makes more sense to me that the Heralds would get equal amounts of power. Might also help level the playing field when one side has ten Surgebinders and the other has all the Fused.) But how much of a threat are they really? In an age of Radiants, just stealing one (assuming they're smart enough to keep tabs on them) would presumably lead to a lot of people keeping an eye out for it, and you might need to face several Radiants with years of training. Keep in mind that Szeth probably had over ten years of training with his Blade before the whole Truthless debacle, as well as other martial training. And he presumably had the advantage of documentation, given that the Shin have had the Honorblades for 4500 years. Someone who just made off with an Honorblade would need to train with it (possibly both powers and Shardwielding), without being found out and with a ridiculous, dangerous Light consumption. Like, when Szeth is trying to kill Hanavar, he draws in so much Light that it's described as being as much as he can hold without it tearing him apart. So I don't know how much trouble someone could plausably cause. Unless a Lightweaver stole one of the other Honorblades. That'd be trouble. I also think that at least keeping the Edgedancer and Truthwatcher Blades around would be a good idea, just for the healing. ¤_¤
  18. I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but it's not guaranteed to, and generally if you don't beat a fullborn with the opening move, you lose. Why risk it? Also, Hoid being afraid of it is not indicative of why he's afraid of it. That is, we can't judge how easily it would kill him from the fact that it would kill him. True, I honestly didn't think of that. ¤_¤
  19. Huh, would you look at that. Well theorised! ¤_¤
  20. Oh, hey, it's the perennial "Fullborn vs." topic. My personal stance is that the winner is always Fullborn in these matchups. The only possible threats to a Fullborn are, IMO, Shardblade sneak attack (stab through base of the neck or through the brain, hold in place until dead, hopefuly paralyzing the body, ideally frying the brain. If the Fullborn is congisant enough to burn metals/tap metalminds a steelpush/ironpull could interrupt you, depending on presence of metals.), Nightblood sneak attack (stab through head/torso and hold just in case, just nicking may not work depending on ability to heal.), aluminium Hemalurgy sneak attack (hope you hit the heart.) or Soulcasting sneak attack (doesn't matter how strong you are if you're encased in metres of rock, unable to move.) Things like being thrown into a volcano should also work, but are far harder to make happen. Possibly also running a current through the fullborn, but you'd still need a delivery method for that, like an electrified harpoon. If you don't take a fullborn by suprise, you can basically assume that they'll never be hit, rendering any weapon useless against them. In the particular case of someone at the Tenth Heightening+, you also run into the problem of there being no self-healing inherent to the system. A coinshot, or just someone with a gun, could kill an Awakener, not to mention someone who could punch faster than sound. ¤_¤
  21. I mean, same. Emperor's Soul might be more interesting, but Alloy is more fun. (And I have a huge pro-Misborn bias.) ¤_¤
  22. I think that this is acceptable as a magical effect, especially post-RoW. Ishar drops the fact that people see clearer when a Radiant swears an Ideal: -RoW, chapter 111 This is said as being because the Radiant touches the Spiritual, and Taln's moment of lucidity was attached to an instance when at least two Ideals were sworn (Dalinar and Szeth), as well as Dalinar uniting the Realms. The Spiritual is almost the same as the Physical at this time. The sequence of events is this: -Oathbringer, chapter 119 Except for the short Kaladin pov, Taln's lucidity comes immediately after Dalinar unites the Realms. If someone just touching the Spiritual is enough to make people see more clearly, can't we expect someone grabbing it and overlapping it with the other Realms to do the same, but much more? We can even see that the Realms are still touching later: -Oathbringer, chapter 120 I think this implies a fairly major effect, so Taln snapping back to lucidity from being basically insensate isn't that strange. I actually think the millennia of torture may be what makes the difference here. Kalak is exhausted and talks about how he doesn't remember, Ash admits to losing long stretches of time. Part of the problem for the other Heralds is existing for so long, sensory imput, memories and all. Taln probably only has torture for the last four-and-a-half thousand years, not any varied imput or experience. The other nine are exhausted in a way Taln isn't, but Taln is far more worn down, as he just held out. It's in the Shadesmar sequence: -RoW, chapter 35 -RoW, chapter 90 And as the Heralds (and Cognitive Shadows in general) are compared to spren, it isn't out of the question that they would break in a similar way. That's fair. I will say that I don't know a ton about torture or the exact effects of torture on psychology. I still find it "reasonable" that Taln managed to hold out, he's known to have achieved impossible victories at the cost of his own life. This could be seen as that idea taken to an extreme. Seeing as we've never seen Taln before the modern day, we really can't say what he was or wasn't like as a person. Other than what we've heard from others. His mind is also... off... what with "torture sublime, for life it meant." Unless that's meant to mean life for Roshar. Though that is still an unhealthy attitude. Ah I think that presenting the moment as positive (turns out there's a way to help the Heralds) doesn't mean that what happens in the moment is positive when examined. Look at how Ash reacts. In fact, I could see self-sacrifice being Taln's madness, just as Nale's legal madness and Ishar's god complex. On which note, Kalak doesn't feel insane to me, just flippant and snarky. At least when he's not being anxiety in human form, but even then, that's not insanity. He's also 110% done with the fight against Odium and is exhausted and disillusioned and wants out. Ooof, right in the mental health. Yeah, that I can fully agree with, Taln can easily become a problematic symbol in-world. Someone needs to make sure Kaladin never learns of this... Hmm. I'm not sure how to respond to this. I don't think something working automatically justifies that thing. I mean, there's also the fact that he barely registers the world around him and isn't functional. As has been pointed out, it seems no-one expected the Heralds to be able to break. Fair enough, though as RoW is the first book to make this connection explicit, and coming off the first that properly establishes the "killing" of spren, we haven't had the information to work from before. Also, there's been so little focus on the Heralds over all. If we should treat one as a spren we should treat all as spren. The fact that the Heralds can be captured in gems (though the don't survive it) is evidence that they're spren-adjacent. Question, is your problem that Taln never gave in, or broke, or that he isn't broken? Because I might have misunderstood what you took umbrage with and argued against a position that you don't actually hold. In any case, they gave in to the torture and he didn't, for whatever reason. He stubbornly held out and was basically worn into nothing, they gave in before that point, but were worn thin. I do like the idea that he was worn down to the point that he basically couldn't give in. There's this, which might read that way: -RoW, chapter 17 Depending on exactly what we're meant to read into the last part. Though I will agree that she doesn't directly diparage humanity fighting Odium. ¤_¤
  23. I want to say that I thought I'd aknowledged it wasn't entrapment, I was wrong in that. That said, I still think that her intent matters, she intentionally provoked the footpads, which means that she's morally at fault. Which is not to say that the footpads' actions are legal or moral, both parties are at fault for various things. To me it clearly reads as her intentionally provoking the footpads. Had she naïvely been in the wrong place, the morality of the situation would be different, but deliberately inviting an attack as an excuse to carry out vigilante justice is immoral. With that, I wish to excuse myself from this discussion, as I feel like continued engagement would be detrimental to my mental health. P.S. I apologise for not being clearer about that I accepted that what she did was not entrapment. P.P.S. I hope this doesn't come across as an emotional appeal or whatever, that is not my intent. ¤_¤
  24. Wow, really? Looking up some things, I came across the term, imperfect self-defense, which is killing in self-defence where lethal force is found to have been excessive, if I understood it correctly. This is second degree murder. I see. I think we just fundamentally disagree there. I find intentional use of excessive force indefencible. I'm not sure, though I'm no legal scholar, and it may of course vary by legal system. I believe that under the system where I live, first degree murder is simply intentional homicide, second degree is the same thing, but where there are exonerating circumstances, such as the victim having threatened or beaten the perpetrator, and manslaugter, which is homicide through negligence. Under this system, she's definitely guilty of first degree murder. I would say that it depends on your intent in doing so, deliberately baiting someone into commiting a crime so that you can arrest them is immoral. That is not to say that the the person commiting the crime is exonerated, they still chose to commit a crime. Mistborn Era 2: How is it a mercy? Just because she could have done something more cruel doesn't make not doing that a mercy. I don't think that's much of a moral high-ground. She could have, y'know, not killed them. Even if the sentence would have been death, killing them then and there is not a mercy. A person with a knife is still a much greater threat to you with a gun that the footpads were to Jasnah. I don't think you can claim self-defence for shooting a toddler who kicked you in the shin. They are not a reasonable threat to her. Excuse me, but that sounds completely insane to me. Given Nale's reasoning of death preventing recidivism, he likely would have excecuted her anyway. Also, lethal force should always be the last resort. Then again, I live somewhere where the death penalty isn't a thing. She had no reasonable way to be a threat to him, so lethal force is completely unjustified. Going back to the toddler, if a toddler punches a police officer, is that officer justified in killing the toddler? By a strict reading of your argument, they would be. Ideally, a police officer should never have to kill anyone. So, where I live there are roughly 1.4 million police interventions per year, last year there were 36 incidents where police discharged firearms. And it's not a case of a low due to the whole pandemic thing, the number is the same for 2018. Oh, and of those incidents, 5 and 6 respectively led to death. Lethal force as a response to a non-threat is sheer brutality. Lethal force as a baseline expectation for belligerent behaviour is utterly terrifying. Huh, interesting. The impression I got was that it was wider. She deliberately flaunted her wealth, in a place that she knew that crimes were being commited, with the expectation of being accosted. She did not happen to end up on that street, she deliberately went there intending to remove a problematic criminal element. Of course not, but she is still deliberately baiting the footpads into going for her. And I think there's a difference between those things. Fully agree here. ¤_¤
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