Inquisitor #5

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About Inquisitor #5

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    Marsh Fan Prime
  • Birthday 08/07/1993

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    Video games, history, linguistics, psychology, fantasy, the Cosmere, RAMPANT THEORISING and run-on sentences. ;p

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  1. Could you remind me of when this happens? It's been a while since I read WoK and WoR. But why would a power manifest as a seizure? I'm much happier with the idea of this being a resonance simply because it seems like an attribute, something that just happens, just like Kaladin's squires. It might also be that Renarin, having grown up with seizures, simply rationalises this as a different kind of seizure, where Rlain might not, not having that same reference frame. I think it makes sense if the original vision is the resonance and the "stored" vision is simply a manifestation of Illumination, showing the same thing, sure, but not being the same thing. And the suppressor is still flipped at this point, meaning that this vision would have to be fueled by Voidlight if that were the case. Yeah, that is an interesting point. You put it better than I would have. ¤_¤
  2. Shouldn't, say, Shallan have remarked on him glowing at the end of WoR though, when he's definitely seeing something? Also, it's been pointed out on Shardcast that we've never seen any other example of someone Surgebinding unwillingly, uncosciously, yes, against their express wishes, no. So it would be odd of this was an actual ability he was using but couldn't control. I don't know, possibly because actively using the ability takes more effort? Possibly because it's not actually a vision, but the recreation of a vision? Oh? -Rhythm of War, chapter 111 He doesn't get a vision? ¤_¤
  3. You might be right. I of course have a bias toward my own interpretation (and for instance for a long time held that what Renarin did couldn't be Voidbinding, as it was too similar to Surgebinding, unlike the metallic arts, which are very dissimilar, imo), but I see where you're coming from, I think. It might simply be that SA has mostly given us similarities thus far, of course. I think we'll have to agree to disagree for now, the Metallic Arts are, from my point of view, too dissimilar to be treated as the same kind of framework as the Surges, as the ways surges manifest seems more consistent than how the nature of the metal influences the magic. Also, aluminium isn't an enigma in feruchemy, it, for some bizzare reason, has a valid interaction with the magic system that isn't just a magnified null. ¤_¤
  4. The visions that come to him unbidden require Light? I know he uses Light when he deliberately "re-plays" one, but nothing of the sort is indicated about when he just sees the stained glass images around him. Also, I believe Rlain gets the same type of vision when he's in no position to have Light. ¤_¤
  5. I, huh, really? I have a hard time accepting that because the Metallic Arts have no visible commonalities, compare S-Illumination and V-Illumination, both have obvious effects related to light/waveforms, thus we'd expect A-steel, F-steel and H-steel to share some commonality, relating either to Pushing, speed or physical allomancy, for most of the metals there doesn't seem to be a common theme, no rhyme nor reason as to why this metal fills this function across magic systems. We can make educated guesses about most of the powers of Voidbinding (Tension, Division ), because we can, based on Renarin, conclude that they will have effects in line with Surgebinding and how it expresses Surges. We wouldn't expect V-Tension to enable Soulcasting, as that is not in line with being an expression of Tension. On the other hand, if you handed someone a feruchemy chart and gave them a thorough explanation of the Metallic Arts, leaving out which metals perform which function in the other two, then asked them to, based on this information, fill in the metals on the other charts, could they reliably conclude which metals actually do what? Seeing as there tends to, aside from tin, be very little relation between what the metals do in each system, I'd hazard a no. Does that make sense? ¤_¤
  6. Ehh, I'm not so sure about this. I have personally theorised that the bond-mate (most likely spren, but presumably any Cognitive entity/sapient bit of Investiture will do) has a lensing effect on the power, a bit like shining light through a coloured or warped lens. So Renarin and Rlain can access Truthwatcher Surges through an Enlightened Mistspren lens, rather than a Mistspren lens, but I don't think this will grant them access to more power, but different power. I will say though, the fact that Enlightening seems to be an imperfect method, as Tumi implies the Rhythm of War to be significant (though this might be philosophical), with the different Investitures apparently not harmonising, I could see the case for them potentially having access to both the regular Surgebinding of their order and the Voidbinding equivalent, though possibly imperfectly, on account of using two "half lenses" instead of one "lens." It will temper Odium in the sense that the Vessel will no longer have a singular overpowering Intent to contend with, it will not just be hatred all the time, though that particular combination isn't one I'd like to see. Other than that I don't think there's a difference in the way the Shards combine if they make Harmony, Discord or even just Inaction or Indecisiveness, just how the mind of the Vessel interprets/rationalises these two Intents simultaneously, but I don't think the actual power of [Ruin+Preservation] is any different no matter the combined Intent. And which one is War? Or is it both? I don't think this is something with a simple answer, though I'm personally inclined to believe that War would be both of them feeding the worst of eachother. Honor as a justification for Odium and as a way of making it "okay," because there are rules in war, the hatred is dressed up in glory and Odium pulling Honor towards martiality. I'd say that the spren with the least influence from Honor is the Nightwatcher, who's wholly of Cultivation, unlike the Cultivationspren, who are an Honor/Cultivation mix, though presumably heavily biased toward Cultivation. Spoilered for length, bolding mine. There's even disagreement among the spren about who's most like Honor and we don't actually know the ratios for any spren, with obvious guesses being Honorspren leaning heavily toward Honor, Cultivationspren leaning heavily toward Cultivation and the Stormfather, Nightwatcher and Sibling presumably being entirely Honor, entirely Cultivation and 50/50, respectively. I really don't like that interpretation, it doesn't sit right with me for a few reasons 1) I don't think that spren have easily isolatable Investiture properties, but are (normally) wholly composed of whatever investiture(s) make them up, ie spren generally consist of a chunk of [Honor and Cultivation], not two chunks of [Honor] and [Cultivation], so claiming that only the Cultivation part was affected sounds to me a lot like just heating up the tin in a bar of bronze. 2) the fact that Tumi put import on the Rhythm of War might also be because it's the first known fusion of Odium and any traditional Tone of Roshar, which is hopeful for Sja-anat's children as it's an affirmation that they do have a place, also: Bolding mine. The Rhythm of War might be significant specifically for being a melding of Honor and Odium, if this is the perspective, again with the added sense of belonging, as above. ¤_¤
  7. Riight, except no-one's making the case that A-steel and F-steel are both expressions of the "force" of steel. I'm inclined to think that all rosharan manifestations of investiture are expressions of the Surges, similar to how all selish manifestations are expressions of the Dor (with the obvious difference of one side being principles and the other power source, but I felt that as an explanation this made sense.) Mind, I don't think we'd disagree if we all said V-Illumination, even if we'd read it differently. ¤_¤
  8. Ah, I think your choice of terminology tripped me up. What you were saying sounded to me like claiming that the Dor is a different thing in AonDor and Dakhor, or that AonDor is powered by the Dor and Dakhor isn't. If I'm understanding you you say Surge/Void/Life where I'd say Expression of Surge, or something like that; eg, Voidish expression for what Renarin does. Is this correct? Oh, I like that as a concept, though as you point out, it's an odd stipulation, especially considering that the Dawnsingers were apparently forbidden proper Surgebinding, per the Eila Stele. So it'd be odd if Honor and Cultivation only enforced a "no Bondsmithing" rule on Odium. Interesting, I've never thought about it like that. I still do find it odd that Rayse threatens to reclaim what keeps Turash around but doesn't actually do so when Leshwi leaves his side. Is Rayse just bluffing with no contingency? Honestly, the Fused are built so badly for someone who wants them to be reliant on him. He should have gone the Endowment route, make them reliant on a periodic infusion of Investiture to keep them in line. Isn't that specifically because he's made a tunnel (the Everstorm) allowing them access to Roshar regardless of his continuing action? Then again, why can't he reclaim that Investiture? Hmm, fair. I could definitely see them reusing an existing mechanism that's already known to staple Investiture to a planet. It's also possible that the Oathpact, being Bondsmith shenanigans, might work by strengthening an existing connection, think Kelsier in Secret History, he can't go too far out because of his Connection to Scadrial. What if by enhancing and/or warping the Connection the Fused have to Odium, the metaphorical leash is pulled short, catapulting their souls to Braize? At least as long as the Heralds maintain it. Hmm, I'm not sure if I believe this, though it does solve a Connection problem by letting the Fused exist within the Everstorm, which is a fraction of the Barrier Storm. I like it. OK, yeah, I'll give that a strong maybe, I was not considering that, though I'd still put it in the "juiced up" category. I just want to point out (sorry, incoming nitpick) that this is not a Death Rattle, but a quote from the Poem of Ista, which rather throws off your interpretation, sorry. ¤_¤
  9. Yeah, I personally have a theory that there's nothing stopping Odium from granting Adhesion (both because Envoyform clearly uses Connection and because if he's hacking an existing system, that is Surgebinding, it makes more sense to just take it wholecloth instead of making alterations to it) but that Rayse might have been afraid of the capabilities of someone with Adhesion. Odium also seems to have a hard time reclaiming his Investiture once granted, yes, he threatens Turash with taking back that which gives him persistent life, but he seems unwilling or incapable of taking it from Leshwi, instead telling her that she'll be tortured and not reborn again, IIRC. So someone with Bondsmith-y abilities might be able to do things with Odium's power that Odium can't easily undo. Did he? A Bondsmith did, yes, but was it Ishar? By this WoB, Bondsmithing can be used much like Lightweaving, as a generic term for a category of ability and the general gist of Honor seems to have a lot to do with Connection and binding things so some of the references to "a Bondsmith" might be about Tanavast, not Ishar. I'm far more willing to believe that a functional god could make people immortal, tether their souls to a specific place, etc. than just a guy++ or at least that if Ishar did it he was being supercharged by Honor when he did it, à la late HoA Vin/Elend and Ruin/Marsh. Also, the Oathpact is doing nothing to any Shard, it's the mechanism by which the Heralds locked away the Fused, separate from the trapping of Odium in the system. And no, I don't find it believable that one dude could impose that kind of thing on ten entire categories of being, not without some serious help, like that of a local Shard who likes rules, or even two local Shards one that likes rules and one that likes personal growth. Now, him being able to manipulate the Oathpact once it's in place I have no problem with and I'm fully willing to believe that I might have forgotten/missed actual confirmation that Ishar created the Oathpact, but I'd not take Ishar's word for it, because that man has said a lot of words that are in serious doubt because of being bleeding insane. Oral histories thousands of years old, presumably featuring no information from actual Radiants. I find myself doubting how much truth about the Radiant experience they could have contained. Why would they have a detail related to the internal experience of Radiance? Why? We have no evidence of religious practice or even religiosity among the Listeners. The only religious references are to the Fused and Odium, neither of which seem to be revered, but rather avoided. Odium is also referenced as King of the gods, so by that token wouldn't Venli's preconcieved notion of a divine voice have been malen? Ah, thank you. Is this not just Connection making her a native speaker, essentially? Same as Dalinar does, though without the (apparent) requirement of physical contact. She gains the ability not not just speak but also think in the target language. (Which isn't that hard to do, I'm currently thinking in English even though it's not my native tongue, though the Connection shenanigans presumably work even deeper and more instinctually than that.) Yes, but can these still be mapped to the Surges? Luckspren are clearly related to gravity in some way, being presumed to be the Platespren of Skybreakers (the Gravitation primary order) as well as being what allow Greatshells to, well, Greatshell without square-cubing themselves and at least around the Greatshells they can excert some influence, as we see with Rysn apparently being slowed as she falls. This relationship also holds for windspren being the Windrunner Platespren and being known to stick things together. The Singer forms are presumably a form of Progression built into their biology, presumably a specialised expression of Growth, with the spren not serving to give the Form its ability, but mostly as a key to guide the Growth, a bit like a specific metal gives nature to Preservation's power or a specific Aon affects the expression of the Dor. So, Growth in the manner of gravitationspren gives Workform. Now, Forms of Power seem a bit weird here, but they might be using both the Singer biology system (to make the Form) and the more general creature bonding spren system (to access a Surge in some manner.) I will freely admit that fabrials are harder to explain, but that might just be because we don't know enough yet. In any case, attractors and repellers could concievably be an expression of Gravitation, if a darn weird and specific one. Cojoined fabrials might work off expressions of Tension or Adhesion? Painrials miiiight work off Illumination. Oh, and Purelake fish might just have had something about them permanently altered from having spent their life bonded to a spren, just like I don't think it's a stretch that there might be spottable differences between an Aviar and a bird of the same species having not become an Aviar, post mortem. And yet these powers can? If Radiant bonds can express power that the spren can cannot express themselves why is it a stretch to assume that other bonds might allow this too? ¤_¤
  10. It is? Then I must have misunderstood you. My understanding was that you thought that Surgebinding manipulated Surges, Voidbinding manipulated "Voids," etc. and that these are wholly separate things, rather than different expressions of the same thing. I might have gotten confused by terminology here, saying eg that Renarin has the Void of Illumination makes it sound like he's not got an expression of the Surge of Illumination but a wholly separate analogous ability. ¤_¤
  11. I never said they were, I just said that people hearing a voice accept their oaths is an established thing that I see no reason for us to doubt. Doubt. I'm not sure if I'm willing to accept that he personally had/has the power to do that. I'm willing to accept it being Ishar's idea implemented by Tanavast though. Yes, how is that relevant to people hearing their oaths being accepted? Yes, and? Are you saying that Venli, with no known preconcieved notions of how the oaths work, on account of how her people have never before been picked to be Radiants, was expecting a divine voice to speak to her, thereby causing it to happen? I'm sorry, I can't figure out what you mean. Would you mind explaining? Why can they do this? Because they've bonded the right kind of spren. I see no contradiction here. The Unkalaki are apparently able to form temporary bonds that do things like increase their strength, the various shellbeasts, ryshadium and the Purelake fish form symbiotic relationships with spren and the singer forms are accessed by bonding spren. I'd say the common thread here is physical being bonded to spren, so they go in the same category. Mind, Forms of Power have two systems going on, first the physical being/spren relation, facilitating the actual form, and second, what I interpret as limited/specialised access to a Surge (Envoyform getting the highly specific language part of Connection, an expression of Adhesion, Stormform getting what I assume to be a limited form of Division, splitting bonds, ionisation, somewhere around there), facilitated by the nature of the form. ¤_¤
  12. Ohhh, let me come in to stir the pot. I don't believe that there can be such a thing as Lives/Lifes and probably not Voids. My personal interpretation (which I find also makes things very simple) is that Surgebinding, Voidbinding, Khriss' theorised "Thirdbinding," Fabrials, the Forms of Power/Regals and the general fauna with a bit of magic are all expressions of the ten forces that rosharans label Surges. Now, before anyone pounces on me, wielding Renarin like a club, I'm not contending that there's nothing different between Renarin's Illumination and, say, Shallan's Illumination, I just believe that they are both expressions of the Surge of Illumination. I'm personally in the camp of "Renarin's powers sure seem to express in a Spiritual direction," as there's no reason to mention the Even More Perfect Adolin(TM) unless this is somehow relevant and, well, you've seen what his Illumination does. I also think that this can be seen by implication on the so-called Voidbinding chart, the basic design is obviously borrowed from the Surgebinding/Radiant chart, including the basic design of the Surge glyphs, but they are rotated weirdly, almost like they represent a "twisted" version of something familiar, from the in-world artist's point of view. And that is my entry into the "is the chart itself just art or is the border just art" falling square into camp border is art. Now, an answer to the initial premise of the thread, I'd say that there's an argument to be made for Adhesion being Odium's truest Surge. It is after all the Surge of Pressure and Vacuum. What is a vacuum? An emptiness, a nothing, a Void you might say. Do I personally believe this? No. But the argument can nontheless be made. Um, source? Spiritual Adhesion? 1. This could be a reference to the ashynite refugees using some poetic language. 2. I fail to see how setting yourself on fire is a beneficial power to have. By that same token Kaladin hearing Dalinar for his Fourth is unreliable from his point of view, people hearing voices accept their oaths is an established thing, why doubt it now? Seeing as they all fall under the category of "creature bonding spren," wholeheartedly agree. ¤_¤
  13. Could it be because this 1) aligns with Rayse's stated goal, 2) is not a known goal of Koravari (not that there are a lot of those)? Maybe? Also, pointing out that it sounds like cultivating is a bit reductionistic to me, Cultivation doesn't hold a monopoly on cultivating things, that's like saying that only Invention is ever allowed to have new ideas. ¤_¤
  14. Source on that? I can't remember anything implying that progressing the bond has any impact on things that happened outside the bond. We also don't know if there is more to fix than the Sibling losing Honor's tone (besides the whole broken oaths make deadeyes problem, but that's not unique to the Sibling). ¤_¤
  15. Huh, must have missed that, neato. I'll conceed that point then. ¤_¤