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About Bigmikey357

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  1. That's a good point. They may not have been created specifically as Nahel spren. But the possibility still exists that they could have been coopted into the system as our Bondsmith spren obviously were.
  2. Something that may bear relevance to the discussion, the spren that make up the Nahel Bond are old but may not have existed prior to the creation of the Knights Radiant. Stormfather and Nightwatcher were present before the arrival of Honor and Cultivation in system, the cousin spren of the KR obviously existed as sapient life inhabited Roshar, but the 9 spren that specifically grant the bond and make up the Orders may not have existed before Ishar made his ultimatum. What if Ishar goes to Honor with his idea to regulate the surgebinders and Honor says cool, we can do that. He takes some Windspren and elevates a few to become Honorspren, creationspren to Cryptics, lifespren to Cultivationspren and ect. He or he and Cultivation build in a mandate as to the type of people they can bond with and the conditions by which the bond mate can gain more power. These conditions were initially somewhat nebulous but over the years became codified. Humans are great at pattern recognition so the humans involved noticed what the pattern was and put it into words as guiding principles for future generations. Men get regulated by oaths, the spren get regulated by the pre existing Megaspren SF/NW. The Sibling is created by the same process as the other Orders spren. If it happened that way then these concepts that drive the KR progression, these Divine attributes, could have been built in when the spren were born. It wouldn't matter then who came up with the concepts. Could be a cultural perception of what the Heralds were, it could have been Ishar in an act of positive PR, it could have been an agreement between Honor and Cultivation on what these Divine attributes should be. However the concepts entered the system, once there they became self perpetuating.
  3. This raises a question for me, slightly off topic so forgive me. Say someone broke a vase a century ago and everyone who thought of that vase as a vase has long died. Then someone else comes along, sees the shards and reconstructs the vase. Does that reconstructed vase get its same soul back via Spiritual Realm shenanigans or does it get a new soul?
  4. In-world our characters often speak of Divine Attributes as holdovers of Vorin theology with no other significance. They were supposedly modeled after what ancient peoples considered were the Heralds most notable noble characteristics. However, as the Final Desolation begins in earnest on Roshar people should begin seeing that some of those previously dismissed holdovers have more relevance than was once believed. The Divine Attributes are one of those ancient concepts I believe should regain relevance as the spren return to fulfill that ancient contract. I am of the opinion that the Divine Attributes have a definite and direct relationship with the Oaths a Knight Radiant speaks to solidify the Nahel Bond with their spren. Both of the Attributes are important, although they are applied differently. One involves what the Knight pledges, the other is what the Knight achieves by said pledge. The issue with my theory is of course that although we've seen at least one person from every Knight Radiant order we've only seen the words for half of them. However, I believe that it's a good sample size, especially considering that they are not on the same side of the Double Eye chart. Another issue is that they don't necessarily always map to primary secondary as listed. But I'll lay out the examples of the Oaths we do have and how they map to the attributes. People can then decide for themselves. Bondsmith: Pious/Guiding I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together. “I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man. ” These Oaths are a guide for how men should live, especially if they are a Knight Radiant and double that if they are Bondsmiths. In adhering to these Oaths a Bondsmith strengthens their connection to God, becoming more pious almost by default. Windrunner: Protecting/Leading I will protect those who cannot protect themselves. I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right.-Kaladin This one is much more straightforward. Protection is what they are all about, it's even in the wording. In following these Oaths one becomes a better leader, for the essence of a good leader is one who cares about people, both those they serve and those they command. Note that this isn't the only way to lead, but the Windrunner does imply that this is either the best way or at least the only way that they will accept. Skybreaker: Just/Confident I will put the law before all else. There are other Oaths, they're the only Order for which we have their complete list. But to summarize, they are all about law. Justice. A budding Skybreaker chooses to follow the law, something external to themselves for they do not trust their own interpretation, fearing their own bias. Although they never completely lose this worldview their Oaths are designed towards making that Skybreaker more confident in their interpretation of law. What else is the Ideal of Crusade for if not to test a worldview against a reality and seeing what comes out the other side? Lightweaver: Creative/Honest The only Order that swears only one Ideal and advances on Truths instead, the honesty portion of the Divine attributes is obvious. The creativity portion is implied however. The spren of their order generally chose people who are creative already. As they shine light into the dark corners of their soul they are able to rise to greater heights of creativity, the better they can use the pain they find as fuel for their art. And since they sit on Cultivation's side of the double Eye, the better they grow. Edgedancer: Loving/Healing I will remember those who have been forgotten. I will listen to those who have been ignored. Though traditionally fierce and elegant on the battlefield, Edgedancers are best known for their healing prowess. They do so through acts of love. They love the people who are in need of it, the people for whom love has passed by and by doing so they heal. Even Nale, an insane Immortal, was touched by the healing of an Edgedancer, no awesomeness required. As an Edgedancer progresses they will be better able to heal wounds Stormlight cannot touch because their capacity for love grows with each Oath given. I suspect that the other Orders will follow a similar pattern and we have some indications of this through personality types. Jasnah seems wise, Renarin is Learned or at least has the potential to be, Venli has shown resolve more than once in the narrative and Taln is the most dependable human ever born. However without the words we cannot be 100% sure. There's even some uncertainty with the Orders we do have words for; that list is not complete. But I am more confident in those, using Skybreakers as a guide. I'm certainly willing to discuss places where we agree or disagree.
  5. tropes

    Humanity as a species is heirachal in nature. It makes sense that many of our stories, and most of our most enduring stories involve the nobility of those we choose to lead us. The King Arthur mythos, the pantheon of Gods in both Greek and Norse mythology, even Jesus was said to be descended from a long line of Kings like David and Solomon. In some instances both in stories and in real life noble lineage is manufactured. With these considerations in mind one cannot get around nobility when writing of epic events. The narrative demands connections to nobility. Even if the protagonist doesn't start noble, the farmboy rises to greatness scenario, they will be noble by book or series end. Look at Wheel of Time. Three small town kids at the start of the story. Three emperors at the end. To be fair, for those who are rooting for the common man to have more representation in the Cosmere, Brandon has tried to work around the nobility thing as much as realistically possible. The Azish emperor was once a common thief. The Lord Ruler began life as a common packman. He was overthrown by a street thief that was the daughter of a priest. Elend didn't Ascend as the lost rightful ruler, only a noble with good connections who was at the right place and the right time. If one objects to nobility in particular they might just be spinning their wheels. Monarchy is often the default, and even other systems of government treat the highest members of said government like nobility. Art imitates life.
  6. The southern Scadrians are working under the auspices of a different Shard. Medallion technology doesn't develop without Harmonium. Look at it like this. 10 beads of Lerasium sustained 1000 years of Allomancers but through genetic dilution their powers were really weak. Another millennium to work on the problem and it would become almost untraceable in human populations. It may not completely disappear in the Scadrian human genome but you may only get a handful of people with any noticable magic. At which point it becomes easy for a Shard to identify, subdue or eliminate magic users. Basically Ruin should have let Rashek take the Well again.
  7. The way Hemalurgy works, Ruin can make one individual with an limited lifespan powerful by taking at least one person and often several people out of his competitor"s system. The math is in Ruin's favor. It takes at least 10 people to make a Steel Inquisitor, 5 to make a Koloss, either 2 or 4 to make a Kandra. What I'm saying is it would take time for magic to die on Scadrial but time he had in plenty. And only a magic user would have had any chance of opposing Ruin.
  8. Everyone who has read Mistborn knows the story by now. 2 Shards come to build a world, the promise being that what one creates the other gets to destroy. Only the Shards themselves know why they entered into this agreement but we know the results. Magic systems in the Cosmere are born due to the interaction between planetary system and Shardic intents. Well something happened to the magic system of Scadrial. Whether it was on purpose or a side effect of a promise between creators, the Metallic Arts reflect this promise. Allomancy and Feruchemy are unique among Cosmere magics in that they are passed down genetically. That would not be a problem if the trait was dominant, but it's a recessive. And with so few people granted the power in the first place the power is diluted fairly quickly, at least by Shardic timelines. Without the power play between Ruin and Preservation both Allomancy and Feruchemy would have eventually died out among its people. Sure Leras could have reinfused the system every few centuries, passed out beads to worthy people, but Ruin would have likely opposed the move, either directly or by using his agents out with aluminum spikes. Basically Ruin wasn't patient enough, strange for an immortal. He could have let the magic system die and made it easier for him to claim his biggest prize, the destruction of Scadrial, without magic users to oppose him. Fortunately for the inhabitants of Scadrial he over reached and got vindicated for his troubles.
  9. For the Dysians I agree 100 percent. The Sians? I believe they are native. You can't use the Rosharan naming conventions as proof of anything; they put wide umbrellas on everything. Anything with wings is a chicken. A lion for them would be some type of mink. Grouping the Siah and Dysian in itself is one of the most insane variants of Rosharan naming conventions as it is obvious as breathing that the two species don't belong together in any way. Anyway, I believe that the Siah Amians are a native species to Roshar, just not to its Physical Realm. I believe that they evolved in Shadesmar. The wrong way shadows, their malleability and their near immortality are all characteristic of a being more related to the spren than any Physical Realm inhabitant has any right to be. And as for being Cosmere aware, well they would tend to meet many worldhoppers in Shadesmar.
  10. They share the Gravitation surge but Skybreakers have Division as their 2nd surge while Windrunners have Adhesion.
  11. The application of this surge would be difficult for the in-world scholars to discover. You guys have thrown enough aerodynamics lingo at me to believe in the possibility at least. It's like the Alcubierre drive only using air as the medium instead of space time, right? The scholars have the math to make this theoretically possible but culturally they're going to find it difficult to overcome traditional trains of thought. Windrunners and Skybreakers fly. They do so using Gravitation surge. They have a proven way in place, one that needs no experimentation and is more widely understood. What would be the impetus for finding another way?
  12. Makes me want to see a side by side comparison between the Heralds at their most glorious vs their current incarnations. Nale and Ishar probably look the most like what they used to while Jezrian (RIP) and Taln probably offer the most contrast.
  13. Another theme you could use is Sanderson's take on the origin of religion, and using religion as a tool for revolutionary action both in itself and against a theocracy.
  14. I'm not sure about the Megaspren theory; I suppose it's possible but I'd need more evidence to be convinced. But there is something that may validate your theory, the appearance of Oathgates in the CR. The black one looks an awful lot like an oversized Inkspren. Thing is though, Shards can create spren. Who is to say Honor didn't make limited edition spren for the Oathgates?
  15. Yeah but everyone has different Oaths. They run along the same theme but still different Oaths. Even the super regulated Skybreakers have different Oaths. I just believe that the Bondsmiths vary a bit more than the other Orders.