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Doonl

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    Doonl

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  1. So obviously this is like 80% speculation, but hey that's what makes it fun right? We generally assume that reforming Adonalsium is possible, partly because its been mentioned by Hoid, who is by far the most reliable source of information (at least when he gives it) on the past and the deepest workings of the cosmere. However, even Hoid seems uncertain as to the possibility, as shown in his conversation with Daliner. Personally I think he have yet to see any convincing evidence that the possibility exists. Starting with the most obvious, Sazed is the only example of a combination of the 16 original shards held by one person that we have seen, and I think its fair to say that as an experiment in combining the shards, he has been less than successful. Not only is he incapable of really taking action, but he is actively struggling to hold the two together. I have to assume that no successfully recreated version of Ado would include the vessel working that hard to keep the whole together, and if it did it sounds profoundly dangerous. However, even putting those things aside, describing Harmony as a combination of the two shards of Preservation and Ruin at all is generous. We (and everyone else) have always understood Harmony as two distinct shards that happen to be held by the same vessel. The same is true of Ettemetal, which is immensely unstable and, despite god metals acting like elements, can be split into Atium and Lerasium as if it was an alloy. I actually have made a post before about whether this is a state inherent in holding 2 shards or not, here: Also to consider, is the ongoing question of whether there was a vessel for Adonalsium or whether it was literally just sentient magic goop. If it would need a vessel to recombine Ado then I think there is a significant question of who could serve. Its a question for another thread, but long story short, single shards need people with specific traits that align with the shards to be effective bearers, and the requirements seem to have been even more demanding for Sazed taking up 2 shards. So, would Adonalsium have requirments that are just so absurd that only the perfect person could ever hope to do it, or would the intent of all sixteen shards be a wash and just any old guy could pick up the divine power of all creation? Alternativly, if Adonalsium does not need a vessel then that opens up a whole other can of worms. Vasher says something along the lines of "if you leave magic alone for long enough it becomes sentient" (I dont have the book on hand sorry for the vague quote) in RoW while talking with Kaladin. So, I assume the theory would be that you just kinda drop all 16 shards in one place and wait, but that also leaves a lot of problems. The Dominion and Devotion shards on Sel were dropped after odium did what he does, and now they are kinda just chilling in the cognitive realm, apparently making it super dangerous to go there. This raises the question of whether you need to leave the 16 shards alone in a specific way to get adonalsium and not just an apocalypse, or maybe D&D are somehow unable to merge together as Ado would, but either way surely they should have become sentient by now, something we have had no indication of. Also, some of the shards have intent which is directly opposed to reforming Adonalsium, which surely would be an obstacle. Most importantly, Autonomy is deeply opposed to mixing with other shards. I have to assume it is still possible to mix autonomy with other shards but it also must be much more difficult, similar to how Bavadium is repelled by Ettemetal. Would the presence of all the pieces of Adonalsium make a difference there? Odium also does not want to be mixed, but if im honest I have always been unclear on how much of that was Odium and how much of that was Rayse. Finally, the way that Adonalsium was shattered probably matters. If it was just that enough force was applied to separate the shards (however the heck that would even be possible) that sure, but I cant imagine it was that simple, and it seems more likely that it involved a fundamental changing of the way that investiture exists to acomplish Long story short, it seems like one of two things needs to be true for Adonalsium to even be a possibility on the table. 1) The boring answer, that simply the fact that all 16 shards are there and not some combination of a few changes the way they interact with each other, simply bypassing all these problems, or 2) The way in which we understand both how shards combine together, and how investiture acts when it is left alone are deeply flawed. As a final note, at the end of the day I do think Adonalsium being reformed is possible, after all it would kinda be narativly unsatisfying if it was just "sorry about the years of speculation yall, it was never even an option," I just don't see how its possible given our current information
  2. So I could just be remembering wrong, but in RoW doesnt Navani do some experiment where two different lights repel each other. I think it was anti-light and its counterpart, since the fact that stormlight and voidlight dont react is a big deal in that book, but I dont have the book on me so I cant be sure This has already been mentioned, and I still think it is not at all plausable that the set managed to produce atium and Lerasium, which we know they were trying to do, and either just didnt realize they succeeded, or never used it. Also more atium was created than lerasium, and given there was enough Lerasium to make Wayne a full mistborn and Wax is at the least kinda mistborn (its unclear exactly how powerful he is now) there would be enough Atium to keep marsh going for a while. I actually love that idea that Autonomy made Ruin and Preservation more independet, it makes a lot of sense, especially since there is a question of whether Sazed is already discord at the end of the book. For making Ruin gain influence, 1) Ruin has always been more powerful since Preservation is more invested into humans, and we see this in BoM where Sazed is using the extra Ruin power to hold back trell. So I agree that we are getting something that is at least very very close to a nuclear explosion. However, I think there is a question of exactly how similar. God metals are elements, but also Ettemetal split into Atium and Lerasium, which implies an alloy. Here is where I acknowledge that god metals behave like elements but also are weird magic rock and dont exactly follow physics so maybe this is wrong, but what it specifically Ettemetal is an alloy and not an element. We and everyone in the cosmere have always perceived Harmony as one vessel holding two shards, as opposed to one vessel holding one big shard. Perception is important in the cosmere, it shapes the spiritual realm. As such, what if Sazed holding two shards changes the perception enough that Ettemetal does behave like an Alloy in that it is made up of atoms of Lerasium and Atium. If this is the case I dont have an explanation for why it explodes when split, but it is at least an explanation as to how an element is made up of two other elements
  3. Telsin's comment implies that, should Autonomy and Whimsy be held by the same vessel the change would not be stagnation like with Sazed, but instead a removal of Autonomy's obsession with control (ironic as that is). Instead, Telsin seems to think that there would be an improvement if the two were combined creating something like Independence (the name is pure guesswork). My point is just that the two seem to be a far more complementary and stable shard combination that Preservation and Ruin, who's intents are at best conflicting and at worst diametrically opposed. I could obviously be wrong on the specific combination of Autonomy and Whimsy but the main point is just that Sazed got incredibly unlucky with the two shard combination he got and that there are many intent pairings that are far less inclined to cause a crisis of personality for the vessel.
  4. Inquisitor already mentioned this, but yea the implication of the quote was clearly that kelsier would leave the airship and travel by steelpushing himself it he wasn't over the ocean I am not arguing that Sazed is not going to turn into discord, or that he will not be some type of antagonist in the future, only that his final statement to Kelsier do not make sense with our current understanding of Sazed as he is now unless he is telling the truth. He has no reason to deceive kelsier into thinking he will never be a threat to kelsier unless he already is, which I dont think is the case. Pretty much the only scenario I can imagine where Kelsier is defending Scadrial from Sazed is if Sazed is Discord, something Current Sazed should and would work against, even if only by verbally warning Kelsier against causing it. What other reason would he have for making Kelsier believe that he is the deciding factor on their conflict. We have been told before that the more a vessel acts against the intent of the shard, the more the intent will take over, so Sazed taking action is very likely to be what causes him to finally turn into Discord. That said, who in this book is constantly complaining that Sazed needs to do more? Kelsier. I'm not saying Kelsier will want a fight with Sazed, only that it will be his fault.
  5. My problem with this idea is that Current Sazed would not support the theoretical actions of Discord Sazed, so why would he be so cagy and try to warn kelsier away from this? If this were the case Sazed would be doing everything he could to set up measures to defeat his future self. This is a great point that I had forgotten about, but we also have to remember that the prophecies from TFE never ended up being easily predictable, and also that we have seen all kinds of horrible dictators who's people love them. It is very possible for Sazed to be a threat to the people of Scadrial while they still love him. You are right that Shallan and Marasi are noto actually in the ghostbloods, so the rules Kelsier laid out are not technically being broken, but it still feels like a breach in the spirit of the rules, especially in Mraize's case. However more importantly, Sure kelsier does not need to answer to Marasi, but why would he not just say "no of course I tell my organization everything" unless it is not true. He dodges that question very specifically. Also, Kelsier for sure could have told the crew about his master plan. They would not have liked it but their not knowing about it was never a requirment. For Kelsier steelpushing he literally says that he is in an airship but steelpushing would not be faster cause he is over an ocean. Idk how that isnt implying he can steelpush, otherwise why bother mentioning it in the first place. It would be like me, a regular person saying "yea the flight lands in 3 hours. Running there using super speed would be faster but im over the ocean." It makes not sense unless he can steelpush
  6. I think the key here is that Sazed does not want to fight kelsier. Unless Sazed has changed more than I think he has since Era 1, he is not the kind of person who actively plans ways to subvert his friends. Sure, he lies to kelsier to keep his fingers out of certain pies, but also seems to more or less let kelsier do what he wants. Beyond that I read it less as manipulation and more a warning to kelsier to be careful, not only because Sazed would be a dangerous enemy, but because Sazed has kelsier's best interests at heart and probably sees any path involving Kelsier and Sazed fighting as a loosing one. Also, Sazed does not want to be discord. He very likely will do anything in his power to avoid in. That, combined with the fact that conflict between the two would require either Sazed to be discord, or Kelsier to take some genuinely evil actions, I think sazed is telling the truth. In either scenario he is trying to avoid a conflict, and an attempt to change kelsier's actions is the best way to go about that. That last part of kelsiers half of the quot is very important. In the future Sazed is alluding to, Kelsier is defending the people of Scadrial from Sazed. This is something that almost certainly requires Sazed to be Discord. If that is the case, it is very likely that current Sazed would certainly be against the actions of his future self, and thus give Kelsier any help he can. Sazed's statement does not apply to if Kelsier and Sazed are in opposition over something else, but in that case kelsier is probably still the responsible party, knowing him. If I had to guess at the source of the conflict between them, Kelsier is going to somehow pressure kelsier to take action, whether that be to stop kelsier or to work with him. We already know Kelsier is frustrated with how little Sazed does, so him pushing a change to that makes sense. However, the actions taken by Sazed because of this will the final straw to turn him into Discord, who's intent then forces Kelsier to defend the people of Scadrial against him.
  7. He told kelsier because the atium from Wax's experiment was how they stopped Marsh from aging and even if Sazed was cruel enough to not tell Kelsier his brother was no longer dying, which I doubt, Kelsier would have noticed before to long anyway. I assume he is lying about having successfully recreated Wax's test in order to stop kelsier from trying himself. Alternatively, he could legitimately have succeeded. A decent amount of time has passed between Wayne's death and the conversation between Sazed and Kelsier, so while I doubt it, Sazed could have just fully succeeded in the experiment and we are not told.
  8. Marsh looking for atium is not evidence that the set actually succeeded, only that they tried to create it. Also, as both of us have mentioned, it seems supremely unlikely that the set managed to create either atium or lerasium and did not use it. And given they were clearly trying to create it, as from the quote you gave, they clearly did have intent, which invalidates this: As for Harmony having bad information, I guess its possible, but he had no reason to front for Wayne, and while its unclear exactly how long he has been blinded for, it seems to be less that the 5-6 years that the Set has been doing experiments with Trellium and Ettemetal for. More than that, his vision is cleared at the end of the book and we still are given no sign that he is worried about the Set having any atium or Lerasium. Also, it seems absurd to assume that the set, who are both extremally competent, and careful, just missed the atium they created. They would have scoured each and every experiment unless they were absolutely certain they would not find it, which would have been long after it was bomb tests and not experiments. Further, if they had ever managed to create any at all they would have recreated the exact circumstances of the experiment until they got more, and then made as much as possible. Unless we want to entertain the idea that the Set did in fact create atium and/or lerasium, and then for some inexplicable reason just never used it during the most crucial operation they ever undertook, and to defeat their most dangerous adversary, Wax, then they cannot have had any.
  9. We have absolutely no evidence that the Set managed to create atium. They were certainly trying to, but I think they clearly failed. You yourself gave the reasons why we would have seen it used, and as you mentioned, they would have gotten Lerasium as well. However, Marsh being on their trail is not proof that they create atium, only they they were working against the interests of Scadrial. We are also told that the set tried exactly the experient Wax did to try and seperate Ettemetal, but without the same results. Sazed specifically mentions that there was something different about what Wax did, but that he isnt sure what.
  10. I think its safe to assume the set failed to create Lerasium since we never saw it used, or saw them have a mistborn. If they had had access to that kind of power they would have used it to stop Wax and Wayne. We just saw their big plan. There is no reason they would have saved it. Plus, Harmony has a clear reason to lie to Kelsier, where as Wayne was not only about to die, but also utterly lacking in the kind of desire for power that would make lerasium dangerous. That combined with the fact that he offered Wayne the answer to literally any question indicated he had to reason to lie. You might be right but I think we are at the point where its complete speculation. Personally I think that if anything this would have required Intent, no lack of it, given basically every single piece of major investiture manipulation requires intent, but you might be right. We probably just need more info
  11. Wax burning steel near the Trellium, not even pushing on it, before the experiment even starts, seems unlikely to be the cause. Firstly, its ridiculous to assume the Set never had anyone try to push or pull on Trellium, let alone happen to be burning some metals kinda near one of the bomb experiments. Second, Trellium's reaction to Wax burning steel is identical to how it responds to Ettemetal, or the other spikes, it just is repelled by Harmony's investiture. If Wax burning steel near it caused the difference, the same thing should be caused by being near Ettemetal, which is obviously true of every single experiment with the bombs
  12. This makes sense, but only if the Atium and Lerasium are being fully seperated every time. The set was able to create the bomb, but not the separation between the two. Also, do you have a quote of Wax burning metal at the time, I could not find it
  13. I honestly had not considered the point about Autonomy wanting to remain uncorrupted, and its a great one. I just cant get over how similar it behaved to anti-light. I mean repelling other investiture, causing a big explosion when mixed, both almost exactly the same. As a note, did we ever find out what happened to the bit of Bavadinium they used in the bomb in Wax's lab? Cause that could matter. Also whatever was different about the experiment Wax did that created Lerasium and Atium.
  14. This is kinda what I was getting at in my 3rd guess, like maybe Sazed just got crazy unlucky with the shards he picked up. I mean there are a whole lot of combinations that at least seem like they would be a lot more stable. Ex: Endowment and devotion, Cultivation and Endowment, Autonomy and Whimsy (as mentioned in TLM), Dominion and Ambition, etc. So Adonalsium would be perfectly stable. I could imagine that Harmony would function a lot better if say Autonomy got added, maybe creating an intent to preserve the autonomy of people, and destroy(ruin) anything that threatens that autonomy
  15. I agree that we are getting something very much like a nuclear explosion, but I disagree a tiny semantic detail that has big implications This is a true statement, but I think they why of it is super important. There is no evidence that different shard's investiture should act in this way. In fact, we have seen the opposite in RoW, where a big deal is made out of Void light and Stormlight not being oppisites. They don't repel each other, they just don't react. So what is different about Bavadinium, or I suppose Ettemetal? The only similar effect we have seen is from anti-light. I also think that the reason Ettemetal is so reactive is because Harmony himself is completely unstable. I wouldn't be surprised if Sazed's transformation into Discord completely changes the properties of the metal, or if, should Sazed ever bring the shards into an alignment where they are not in conflict, Ettemetal loses much of its reactivity
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