Odium's_Shard

Hmmm, doesn't Brandon know that foreshadowing is of Odium...

This is really interesting. Given that he can now engage in the Nahel bond, presumably he was transmogrified into an expression of a Splinter of Honor. But he does talk about his siblings and I've always been thinking "three, one for each Shard"... if they predate the Shards then is that even valid? Or it could be that it was powered by a Connection to Honor and His Splintering has changed the kind of Connection that is required? Like a fabrial which has trapped no spren.

I agree with other dissenters: the Sixth Heightening might given them implicit ability to Invest in Endowment, but it is likely because that are already so Invested via BioChromatic Breath in that Shard that they have instinctive ability to Cognitively translate their Investement from Spiritual "Potential" to Physical "Effect". Progression through the Ideals has similar logic, implicit ability to transfer Investments in Honor, giving effects like Shardblade and Shardplate, from the Spiritual Realm to its Physical manifestation. However, conflating both is conflating different forms and levels of Investiture from different Shards with different Intents.

Similar to @Rossamund I think that a world where God/the Cosmere cannot effect change doesn't speak for a group of humanoids. That they existed likely indicates that Adonalsium had sacrificed some Investiture in making them, or they drew it from him. That they succeeded can be seen as a "fluctuation", and likely that there was a counter-group to those that sought the Shattering but through this "fluctuation" He was Shattered. This does not mean that Adonalsium or the Cosmere at large was not balanced against change.

That's fair, I think it's sufficient at least then to say that all protagonists that aren't Hoid have humanity in mind, and hence it's important to determine whether Restoration of Adonalsium would appeal to them. Though, given humanity at large isn't aware of Adonalsium, this is probably moot for the plot as it stands.

Does the allegory speak anything to whether Hoid would have the best for humanity in mind?

Investiture is free if it comes from the Power of Creation through the initial Investment of a Shard. The Stormfather is the largest remaining Splinter of the Shard that was Honor, alongside all the contingent of sentient spren. Hence the Power of Creation that flows through them and hence over Roshar is indeed the body of Honor. Given that, Investiture can only be granted to those that have the pieces of the their soul arranged correct, or to artificial construct that are arranged such that they can (temporarily) hold Stormlight and use it by the perfection of gems. I've said in other threads that like Hemalurgy, the ability of Investiture on Roshar/generally to accept the design of fabrials is another of those "killer features" that have Cosmere wide significance. If an artificial construct can register for Investiture or at least catch it temporarily you've essentially got something as powerful as a computer chip for creating programmable magic!

We have not heard why Adonalsium was Shattered, nor have we confirmed that Hoid or indeed anyone wants to reform it. In my opinion, the likely reason for the Shattering was for Change. We know that there are elements of Adonalsium that oppose and encourage change sufficiently that they balance out (Ruin Preservation, Dominion Cultivation). It's entirely possible that in a world where Adonalsium is whole there is no "Change". If Hoid or the original Shardbearers Shattered Adonalsium for this reason, there's no reason for them to put It back together. More likely, Hoid seeks to retain the separate nature of the Shards whilst holding back the ugly nature of the ugly parts of Adonalsium's nature: perhaps he wishes Cultivation, Preservation, Devotion and Honor to succeed where Dominion, Odium and Ruin are held back or balanced, so that the Cosmere as a whole becomes the ideal home of humanity (presumably he is "human" though it is never confirmed whether before the Shattering there even was such a thing, though given Preservation (and Ruin) based their humans off the original Yoleni this is a fair bet). Whilst I adore Wheel of Time, it adheres to the ultimate in tropes (which it in part created), and the cyclic nature does not fit the arc of Brandon Sanderon's current Cosmere (rightly so).

I mean, I think whilst that is a fair point, it's a case of Chekhov's Gun. The whole point of this forum is we're under the assumption that if BS puts it out there, especially when he doesn't have to, it's meant to tease us. He knows we'll read into it. Whether it can be explained away or not after the fact is up for debate, but this quote is here to provoke: In my mind, this doesn't speak directly to the ability of a Truthwatcher. The likely reason it's forbidden in Vorinism is because it is not of Honor and is not of the abilities of a Radiant. It almost certainly goes against the Ideals of Honor, in that knowing the future and profiteering from it is not honorable. Instead, it likely indicates (and there's no real reason why this cannot be true) the influence of Odium or another Shard on previous era Radiants. They know that foreseeing the future is a dark Surge, or not of Honor, hence why they must whisper amongst their fellow Radiants when recording their gem. Instead, we should focus on whether there are other Surges/Orders that have exhibited "corrupted" variants of their powers, or are prone to the influence of non-Honorable intents.

Story-wise I agree, I suppose there's no Cosmere or continuity reason why they can't bond on their own. I wonder what the real power of the Bondsmith is though, that warranted that name... it seems unlikely that it was creating a Perpendicularity, that seems unique to the Dalinar situation and Honor being gone. But the descriptions of the Bondsmith from Way of Kings is limited, and their job not fully explained.

Perhaps Brandon is hinting with that quote that something could happen that might allow Adolin to revive the Blade, but he also points out it might have to be the same person and even that is difficult enough, although perhaps he was pressured into that "--Yeah" to avoid giving too much away. Though, in my opinion it might be the purview of Bondsmiths such as Dalinar to facilitate direct connections to Honor: he has Investment almost certainly at the Splinter level at this point, he might be able to "Reforge" Connections to old Blades with sufficient closeness, Adolin included.

Personally I think that the reason behind Adonalsium being able to take an action is that the Intents do not have to exactly cancel. In the case of Preservation and Ruin, these Intents are clearly opposed, but other Intents may be more nuanced in their cancellation or their interference. Is creating Roshar an act of any one Intent, or merely an expression of will. Perhaps Roshar was created by Adonalsium as it was the will of the people of Yolen, and he could find justification there. Perhaps Adonalsium was able to take action on in the case that the creation/destruction of something was neutral: he did not Preserve Roshar, nor did he Ruin it, per se, he had no Odium nor Devotion. To me it seems more likely that the Intents did not exactly overlap like Preservation versus Ruin: he could Cultivate something without any other Intent going against it, for example. But to me the most likely reason for Adonalsium's Shattering was that it was unable to act to the desire of the people of Yolen, so 16 conspired to destroy it and take the individual Intents for themselves and act out their desires. Adonalsium should be perfectly balanced, and the exact Splitting of the Intents (even into 16) might just be a particular coincidence of the way it was Shattered. But it might be likely that a Big Bang or a Creation was conceived at the moment Adonalsium was, and in that moment it created Roshar and the whole system, and it slowly became completely constrained by its unified Intent. Alternatively, if all Intents are present, there is no restriction at all, because the don't cancel, they just balance. He might have no preferences either way, but still be able to take action. Though, that would beg why He would need to be Shattered.

The concept of planet-spren might be a bit ambitious (especially Cosmere-spren) since it seems to me most likely that the Stormfather, Nightwatcher and Sibling are just very large Splinters of Honor, Cultivation and Odium respectively, in the same way that many if not all spren are simply just smaller splinters (enough not to capitalise): they're definitely Invested Cognitive aspects, which is as good as any definition for a splinter of a Shard. However I doubt that the "spren" concept extend much beyond Roshar or its system, though it might to Braize. The concept of spren seems to be unique either to Roshtar or to Honor/Cultivation's original design (which Odium may imitate, or be similarly constrained by Roshar), as in other planetary systems like the Elantris system, Invested Cognitive aspects do not look exactly like what spren are (more like Seons). I think it unlikely that the gravity of the system is decided fundamentally by the Gravitation Surge or its Anti-Surge, since other planetary systems also experience gravity and have no magical way to change it. From my understanding of the Gravitation Surge, it actually affects the relationship the user has with the planet or point in question, more "Connection" becomes more gravity, or vice versa. So the planets need not be complicatedly tied together through planet-spren Surges. I think the main point of interest is what you point out in regards to the connection between certain numbers and certain symmetries in the Cosmere. At this point it seems we don't have enough pieces to say conclusively what the numbers mean. And interesting point I've seen made elsewhere is that the Nine Unmade plus Odium's Champion might make the Ten, but it might equally be that Odium made nine simply because it is an unholy number in the Rosharan system. To me, 16 and 10 are the two most important numbers, 16 being slightly moreso due to the Scadrial and Adonalsium splitting references, whereas so far only Roshar has a definite 10 as a symmetry (Nalthis has Ten Heightenings but there might be more people didn't reach...).

Whilst we have no evidence that Selian teleportation and Stormlight's spanreeds do in fact transport information faster than the speed of light (since for the kind of distances used throughout the books the light transfer would be almost instant and there would be no way for them to record whether there was the required 'lag' in motion)... it would imply that if Investiture forms used from Scadrial's system can go FTL then there are ways to use the other magic systems to also go FTL if the systems are balanced (they may not be since it seems its easier to worldhop using Selian magic, seem to remember a WOB on that). But I'm guessing its harder to go FTL than a ruby spanreed or one of the most basic Aons? Unless the reason its so easy using Selian magic is because teleportation is built into the magic system for use by any Invested party. The way to go FTL using Scadrial magic involved complex concentric time bubbles to create the warp drive effect, so it seems to a bit anti climactic if just about anyone on other planets can move ships FTL using simple mechanisms, it seems like it should be a technology that is hard to develop. Beside, spoilers for Sixth of the Dusk:

Is perception of what a Shardblade/real weapon should look like also what stops Szeth from tranforming his Honorblade, or are Honorblades (whilst not technically dead) not quite alive enough for that function? We have no evidence that any of the Heralds were able to transform them, and I seem to recall in the opening sequence all of them were left as blades when the Heralds abandoned their pact (unless the Honorblades revert to that form when relinquished). Because even when the dead Shardblades are used, many of them have details and features that relate to their previous owner before the blade was killed, and these are not lost from the blade being 'dead'.

Perhaps then for Travel and Worldhopping, you use your Cognitive aspect to plan and carry out your route, and then invoke your Surgebinding for example (presumably the Surges of Travel and Transformation allow you this power whereas other Surges do not) to bring your Physical self out of 'existence' either into the Spiritual or into the Cognitive (presumably similarly as how spren are pulled more fully into the Physical to act as Shardblades). Then, you can do this walking. Presumably though the way Shallan in in Shadesmar is different to how Jasnah is, to allow Jasnah to be able to Travel but Shallan to only Transform... or perhaps were Shallan to walk for these days she could 'Travel' in a limited sense, but Jasnah's Surge of Travel allows her to 'hop' in Shadesmar, re-imagine herself in another location as it were, so that she can Travel almost instantly (instead of taking days in Shadesmar). That way, if she knew the Cognitive makeup of a planet/location she could, as an analogy, close her eyes and imagine herself there, and in the Cognitive and with the right sDNA to give you the Investiture to make it so, it is made so. Presumably she cannot Travel to a place she knows nothing about? This might be suggested by the fact that Hoid knew where to wait for her to emerge, unless he was tracking her in Shadesmar (which if she had the ability to 'hop' would be less likely)... whereas Elantrians just invoke a distance and a direction, like a trajectory.

It would make sense to assume this was to do with the Dawnsingers... since the cities also show signs of cymatics, then it must have had a positive use initially... perhaps as you say, it was use in the extreme at the Shattered Plains to combat the Everstorm or some similar cataclysmic event to add the power of song/music to the power of the Surges, and the result was the unintentionally Shattered Plains from the force of the combined song.

It's my opinion from the varying snippets we get about the old times and the time of the Recreance (specifically, I can't remember which epigraph, but there was one about somebody mentioning that they were going to use the specific abilities of the Bondsmiths to end the battle with the Voidbringers, or something [need someone to help with this reference]) that there was some reason lost in history that at the time the Radiants considered to be a good reason, or for the better, or whatnot. I don't really buy into the Vorin reinterpretation that the Radiants were evil, or abandoned them, rather I think that there was probably some agreement amongst them (and that back then they didn't know it would 'kill' their spren) to lay down their weapons and their duties or something, as they were no longer needed, or they were becoming a negative force, or similar... and as such there came a day where they all did so simultaneously, releasing themselves from their vows and hence their bonds. There's probably some words you can say to remove yourself from the bond, perhaps... and this is what was done at the Recreance?

I think the whole 'you do not have to bond Honorblades' definitely throws the wrench in the works for the cracks in Szeth, those formed through some other process as you say. I do however think that even in Nalthis there is a 'crack' that the Investiture is filling, its just that everyone on that planet is born with it filled. When you give up your Breath and become dull or whatever the word is, it's like something the Investiture was filling is missing, like a 'hole'. I'm not sure that this has any way that it can be taken advantage of, so in that case it isn't like a 'crack', but I feel like its something similar.

Unless it smacks into them in an Everstorm, presumably...

Even after travelling only 5 metres, assuming no air resistance, it would under 0.7G be travelling at 9.8*5*0.7 = 34.3m/s... so lets say you're using it to hit someone on the other side of a long hall, 20m away, that's 137.2m/s... about a third of the speed of a bullet/sound. Obviously, accounting for resistance and all that it's less, but the point of using a small object is that you don't want it to have much 'impact' force, you're not trying to break their bones... what I was going for (and the same as Coinshots in Mistborn) is the pentrative pressure of a small object travelling at high speed. In Mistborn if they were relying on 'impact' to kill, the penny would hit the person and they would be thrown backwards by the weight of the push... but the penny goes through them. All you need is enough distance and a strong enough Lashing and so damnation good accuracy to shoot them through...? Maybe a penny isn't best for penetration, but a javelin , sharpened tree branch or other?

Essentially looking through some of these points, while many of them are really cool I feel like they belong definitively under different Surges. Not to burst the bubble since this was kind of my idea and I want them to be true but here goes: Inverse Full Lashing of Expanding Air, or similar points about using Adhesion in the opposite direction to blow things up, I believe that Division will probably cover cool effect like this (think the intro to WoK, the Dustbringers). Reverse Gravitation... I really want to believe this but from a physics standpoint, which from Brandon's works tend to be maintained, gravitation is purely inwards force wise. I.e., you could change their Lashing to send them somewhere far away, but you could never make it so that a particular object sends all other objects away from it (i.e. Inverse Reverse Lashing). It may be possible (though unlikely) to create a Reverse Lashing point far away drawing object away from you, but it seems Lashings require touch (or an extended Shardblade) to pass their effect. As for the part about ripping a head off with a Lashing to the head up and a Lashing to the body down, I don't believe this is possible (sadly) because the body is viewed as a single 'entity' Cognitively (it sees itself as one being, not head and body separate) so Stormlight and a Lashing would be passed to the entire thing. Rock down and body up though might work . I also think in this thread we should discuss what the possible 'Basic Lashings' of the other Orders other than Windrunners are, and whether advanced techniques could be used by these Orders... I'd like to do Order cross-combinations, like simultaneous Adhesion and Divison or Tension and Gravitation to snap someone in half, but I think that's a topic for another day thread My personal 'Advanced Lashing' would have to be creating a Reverse Lashing point on someone while simultaneously projecting them away from you upwards into the incoming volleys of arrows... pincushion o'clock. This is more of a 'combo move' however ... Along the lines of a Shardblade (as an extension of your Investiture) being able to create Lashing points or effects... this seems completely possible. Hence anyone with the Division Surge with be particularly deadly in battle, since even if they miss (and assuming they can protect themselves) they can cause an explosion of rock wherever their Shardblade does connect. EDIT: Didn't want to double post but I just thought of something... couldn't everyone with Gravitation function like a Coinshot? They could project any object metal or not in a specific direction if they were good enough with their powers to say, shoot someone through with a pebble? At a sufficient distance, the gravity would have accelerated it to the speed of a bullet... so potentially even more penetrative than a Coinshot's penny?

Yep I pretty much agree with both your reinterpretation (it was vague on Brandon's part, like an added comment at the end, an aside) and also with your comments. I like this idea that it is down to the Radiant as to what is going against the tenets of their Order which in one respect kind of constitutes going against themselves (since they're drawn to that Order for a reason). I don't think there's an objective 'line' however, as in, if it doesn't protect everyone don't do it, but if its going against 'protection' and 'leading' then it will probably strain the bond, but by varying degrees (i.e. going completely against it can ruin the bond). I think this probably comes down as tenets to the attributes of the Orders, I can't remember the exact names for them, but I think they include 'Leading' and similar adjectives.

What I was looking to Realmatics for is the process through which Regrowth and Feruchemy Healing and other similar processes are able to heal back a lost limb or 'restore' rather than 'heal'. As you say, Szeth's face healed back to its original shape, it did not simply stop bleeding or stabilise in that shape. So I was proposing that for Stormlight users it is something Cognitive storing their typical Form which they can revert back to (though this might not be relevant to the context of the argument, since Szeth can also heal 'back' to a previous Form of himself). What might be relevant is that Szeth is unable to revert changes to his soul (like a tether being cut). As you say, this may be a measure of the kind of amount of Stormlight we're talking about here, but to me it seems like the power of Szeth's normal abilities and powers are on a level with Kaladin's, and it doesn't seem like if he tried to use up all of the Stormlight currently in him he could ever heal a Shardblade wound. It seems to me that the 'living' bit, i.e. having a bonded spren, is responsible in some way (whether through amplification of Stormlight power or additional Cognitive presence or other) for the ability to heal Spiritual wounds. I think the point here to me about fissuring isn't that Honorblades do this more, but to me that all forms of Investiture like this leave you in some way 'cracked', or that you must start 'cracked' to even let the Investiture in and become bonded or a Misting or whatever. But, with an Honorblade, you might crack, or be cracked, or become cracked as Szeth seems to, and have no guiding influence or moral code you have to follow and no accountability, and this might lead people down the wrong path and end up causing further 'fissuring', which potentially might allow other more Odious influences in?

Perhaps the method of the making of Parshmen (or the method by which they were made meek from the typical emotional Parshendi) is a forced Transformation of Form to Dull Form or whatever it is... presumably this means that in order to be in Dull Form, some sort of dullspren is needed to even maintain this form, and assuming they came from the Parshendi who were the Listeners and assuming that in the past it was the Parshendi Voidbringers that fought in the Desolations, then all Parshmen contain within them already this 'hole' for Odium to fill and voidspren them up (if they can be forced to dullform, then they can be forced back to voidform). Also, as to why the Parshendi Listeners themselves are apt to this voidspren nonsense, I think its that the act of Investing themselves in normal spren bonds and Forms and such (and the way they must be designed as organisms to facilitate this as a reproductive method) 'cracks' their soul, or leaves 'fissures' through which other influences can affect them. The discussion on this kind of 'fissuring' occurring in Investiture processes is being discovered over here at the moment and might have some interesting points to consider (other than my own).