Jace21

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About Jace21

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  1. Whether or not they can stop and stare is a function of time taken not distance travelled. I grant you he was moving fast, but I think the staring (pre-grab) was more to do with the narrow misses of the claws than anything else. Still, as I said I think pewter-burners are roughly equivalent in speed anyway. That is what he said, but I interpret it differently to you I think. I took it to mean that what Dalinar was doing was unique and unexplainable, not just that other people aren't good with plate. Likely due to his proto-radiancy or possibly even thrill-enhanced, but not just a result of practice. And I hate to be that guy, but WoK Prime supports nothing since so far as I know, its non-canon. I agree with the sentiment that many shard-bearers are not real warriors though.
  2. This is a fair point, though I think giving a gun to each of them would still be an advantage to the Mistborn. That said, I don't consider guns necessary to the fight, just helpful. The sprenshield is an interesting one. It is indeed impervious to the pieces of metal that would hit it, but size is a real issue. To provide full protection it would need to be a hollow tube with the Radiant inside it. I'm not sure it can go that big. If it can't and the max is that it can go full tower shield, all the mistborn has to do is get metal behind you and he can just pull on it while pushing on something the other side. The shield can't block both. Taking that out, hitting the arms and legs reliably isn't that hard. The hypothetical mistborn is unlikely to be shooting just 1 coin, I'm imagining a dozen plus pieces of metal, some will hit. If his goal is just to drain Stormlight, it doesn't even matter where he hits, helmet or shin guard, they both take Stormlight to repair. To me it appears that you are the one limiting the scope of the discussion more than the thread implies my friend. You have decided we are only allowed to discuss "standard mistborn" against '4th Ideal Radiants", which is not specified in the OP. The topic is for "Radiants vs Mistborn. I don't see any issue with the answer being "it depends on the power, preperation and skill of the Mistborn" which is what we're arguing. I'm going to just write short replies to the bolded section for ease, let me know if I should expand on any points. before theyre either out of metals - until we know more about the rate 4th Ideal radiants burn through stormlight, I think its safer to assume metal last longer. Its already been mentioned in the thread that a Mistborn can easily keep enough pewter on them for hours of constant burning, and its one of the fastest burning metals. but they cant do do damage - I think this is the biggest disagreement. Firstly, I am assuming that the mistborn is expecting combat, so could well have metal other than coins. But even if coins are all thats available, I'm not sure it matters. I agree that 1 hit from a steel-pushed metal object likely won't crack the plate. But I think that enough hits will. The impact is greater than you'd think based on feats from the Mistborn books. Repeated hits could crack it. walks down through the storm of coins until they catch the mistborn - is the mistborn just standing there? Because unless you're a skybreaker/windrunner, I'd be amazed if you get anywhere near them. Kiting back while still attacking shouldn't be that hard. that guns not doing any reliable damage. - I think you're overestimating how easy it is to dodge a bullet. The mistborn can be comfortable out of sword range, maintain that distance and still shoot at legs pretty accurately. Even plate enhanced reflexes aren't faster than bullets. And since the mistborn just needs to hit somewhere to damage the plate and force stormlight usage to repair it, it doesn't matter if the area it hits would be lethal without the plate. It's all good. If I remember correctly Dalinar sees a few hundred knights abandon their plate in his vision. Windrunners and Stonewards I believe, 2 of the most numerous orders. It wouldn't surprise me if that was pretty much every 4th/5th Ideal member of those two orders, which would make 1000 total a likely upper limit. I could easily be wrong though. This is all melee combat based, and I agree the Radiant has a huge advantage. No mistborn we're aware of could be confident of beating a 4th Ideal Radiant in close quarters. I'm just not convinced it ever gets there. Mistborn are just too maneuverable compared to most Radiant Orders. Not really relevevant to the current topic, but didn't we learn in RoW that there were 2000 honorspren bonded during the recreance? I could be completely misremembering, I don't have my copy with me to check. If so there would likely be far more than 3000 total Radiants, though I still think 1000 is the cap on 4th/5th ideal Radiants total. Honestly I'm not sure even that would help the community reach a consensus Ultimately I think it's a skill matchup, but that's a boring conclusion so the debate will go on!
  3. Why thank you. Oh absolutely. These topics can't be resolved with the information we have. It ultimately comes down to opinion. I do think there is room for debate though and not just the "you don't agree you must be stupid its so obvious" that occasionally happens. Still, its a fun topic. I 100% agree, hence my rankings of an average mistborn vs a very skilled one being different. But with Order and individual skill being so varied among even 4th Ideal Radiants being, generalizing to a certain level is unavoidable. After all the "best" Radiants as in "most skilled in combat" may not be the ones of higher ideals. Kaladin is of course exceptional, but skill in battle is not necessarily related to number of Oaths. Potentially, but honestly I'm not sure strength matters that much. I doubt any natural allomancer, even a Lerasium mistborn is naturally strong enough to push or pull on plate without duralumin. The main advantage that I see would be stronger Pewter, but I don't think close quarters is the way to go, the key to the fight seems to be Steel/Iron usage. With that being the case, once you are sufficiently strong and skilled to control enough metal to break plate while keeping yourself our of reach (as I believe Kel and Vin could be), more strength won't really help. Only once you get to compounding levels of strength would it really be relevant I think. Modern day firearms, I agree would be game changers. Firearms of the level we see in Mistborn Era 2, I'm not so sure. They'd help a skilled Mistborn for sure, but I don't think they'd even the playing field enough for an average Mistborn to beat a 4th Ideal Radiant. They'd make it easier for a Kel/Vin level combatant to break plate, but I'm not convince they'd do more than that. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise though, guns are definitely nor my area of expertise. I mean this whole discussion is hypothetical. It's hardly an issue for someone to hypothesise about a highly skilled Lerasium Mistborn and how they'd fair against a Radiant with Plate. It's less hugely buffing the Mistborn, and more clarifying which type of Mistborn the person was referencing. We have very little information on what 4th Ideal Radiants can do. You yourself say that not all 4th Ideal Radiants are created equal. Kaladin is skilled yes, but I'd take Kel/Vin over Shallan in a fight any day, plate or no plate. Seems fair to wonder what a more powerful mistborn than they could do against a more skilled Radiant (like Kaladin). The best counter to me is just hit it a lot with bits of metal. We know repeated, forceful impacts can crack plate eventually. Since the main tactic of the mistborn is likely to be to make the Radiant burn through stormlight, the Radiant being forced to repair his armor isnt a bad thing, and once he can't anymore it be broken by the Mistborn, even if it takes a while. The Mistborn does need sufficient skill to stay our of reach while pelting the radiant, but that's why I think only the most skilled could manage it. No huge buff required, just time and the skill required to buy that much of it. Do you have a source for this? We know there were thousands of Radiants, but as far as I know, all indication is that relatively few of them were 4th or 5th Ideal. I suppose you said hundreds, which is probable, but I doubt there were "thousands". I'd be surprised if there were 1000 between all the orders. What's your source for hundreds of feet? I just reread that section of tWoK to check and didn't get the impression he was that far away at all. Lets say for arguments sake he is though. 200 feet in 3 seconds would be 67 feet per second. Regular humans can run 30 feet per second, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that a Pewter burner can run at a speed around twice as fast a normal person. So they'd be in the same ballpark when it comes to speed, though I doubt Dalinar was that far away, like I said. Now Plate provides much more strength than a-pewter 100%, but I think pure speed is about equal. Or at least close enough that the advantage is small enough to not matter too much. 8 people who were equipped and trained to specifically counter him, in an evironment that favored them while he had few weapons? Regular as in "no powers", yes, regular as in "average joe", no. Even Hazekillers were no match for a skilled mistborn once the mistborn spread metal around or got in an environment where they could use their advantage. We see Vin kill dozens of them in Well of ascension without much difficulty. This is all kind of irrelevant though, since a Radiant or Mistborns ability to butcher random people has no real bearing on how they'd do in a 1v1.
  4. Hi Everyone! Its been a hot minute since I posted on the Shard, but I do love the classic Mistborn vs Radiant battle thread. Honestly though, RoW didn't really move the needle for me much. I already suspected Radiants got Plate at the 4th ideal, which is the only major revelation that affects battle prowess, at least in my opinion. So if you give them roughly equal resources and they fought at a location that didn't advantage either side, I'd rank them as follows. 5th Ideal Radiant > 4th Ideal Radiant = Highly Skilled Mistborn > Mistborn > 3rd Ideal Radiant Lack of plate is what screws over the 3rd Idea radiant for me. The healing factor from Stormlight is amazing, but we know it can run out and an average mistborn should be able to pin cushion the radiant while kiting back without much difficulty. Once the Radiant gets Plate, I think the average 4th Ideal Radiant has a huge edge over an average Mistborn. Plate is just too durable and most Mistborn lack the skill to wear down a Radiant enough without also burning through all their metal. Which would leave them as both normal guys, but with one of them having a soul-cutting sword. 4th Ideal Radiant vs Skilled Mistborn (a la Vin or Kelsier) is a difficult one. I think we can all agree Vin and Kel are far from ordinary, and someone of their skill, who can manipulate a storm of metal objects aimed at their target and constantly change their own position as well, can deal with Plate more easily than other Mistborn (though still not particularly well). That said, they are far less durable. I have them at equal in my rankings above, but thats a generalization. Something not particularly focused on in this thread is the idea that while the surges each help counter the Mistborns skills fairly well, no Radiant has more than 2. So while I would back some orders like Windrunners and Skybreakers to beat a Kel/Vin type most of the time, I doubt they'd win 10 times out of 10. Likewise I would back a Vin or a Kel to take a 4th Ideal Willshaper/Truthwatcher in a fight (based on what we know of those orders) the majority of the time, but likewise not every time. A long-winded explanation of saying that it would depend on the Order for me, but as a generalization I think a top-tier mistborn is about equal to a 4th Ideal Radiant. If we include Atium, it would likely boost the Mistborns chances in each scenario, but not enough for me to change the ranking unless we include it in unrealistically large quantities. Considering either side with unlimited investiture serves no practical purpose in my mind, it would just be a stalemate. And a Fullborn stomps all of them. A regular Feruchemist probably could too if they had enough attributes stored, but that's less likely. With a Fullborn, it's not close, Atium or no Atium.
  5. For the simplest explanation is that his title "Binder of Gods" is that it was originally a title from the Dawnchant, almost certainly of Singer origin. If Ishar was the idea behind the Oathpact, as has been suggested, he would be the "Binder of Gods", having bound the Odiumspren and Fused (Singer "gods"). Maybe he pinoeered the "perfect gemstones trap Unmade" technique? I just struggle to believe he could bind Odium or that merely having the idea would be enough to get the title.
  6. I agree with the general idea, I'm sure it would have helped for Nale to be both Herald and Knight. But technically we don't know he was the only one, he just wasn't aware of any others. I only mention it because my headcannon is that Taln was a Stoneward.
  7. Feruchemy. Incredible amount of practical capabilities and many of them subtle enough that people wouldn't know about my powers if I was careful.
  8. Are you thinking of Demoux? His wife is the terriswoman worldhopper I think.
  9. Personally I think Soulcasting metal to use for allomancy, then using a hack to power Soulcasting with Allomancy would result in a net loss. I have no real evidence for it though, it's just my opinion.
  10. Personally I am almost 100% sure he just arranged for someone to be killed and took their body. Manifesting one out of investiture seems overly complicated and I am not convinced the Kandra theory would work with a human CS. On the other hand, would Kel kill someone for personal gain, especially if he can justify it as being for a "greater good"? Absolutely.
  11. I agree with most of what you've said, an excellent summary! My main disagreement is here with Windrunners. Not in a million years do I see Kel swearing the 3rd Oath. But that's just my view. I also think the "builder" attribute of Willshapers isn't a negative. Knowing his weaknesses and surrounding himself with people, like Dockson, who offset those works for me. He "built" his crew.
  12. Whether or not a shard could be unsplintered and whether Dalinar could do it has been answered already so hopefully that helped. As to your points about narrative and Kaladin's possible progression, you may be right but many people disagree. Your original query was why it's such a popular theory and hopefully that's been answered
  13. Because we know it could happen, it would make sense narratively and we have seen what look like the beginnings of it already with Dalinar. Doesn't mean it will happen, but certainly explains why people think it might. As for Kaladin doing it, I personally doubt it. He is too narrow-minded and has shown no signs of becoming anything more than an excellent Windrunner.
  14. Just having told or telling lies is not enough to be a Lightweaver. They seem to need to be profound lies you tell to yourself about yourself, with the telling of Truths being a path to self-awareness. I realise it's all interpretation, but I feel like Kel is too self-aware to be a Lightweaver.
  15. Because there is no "Slytherin" order I can see but Hufflepuff accept anyone haha. Thats fine, I read your other posts and understand your point about Kel=Lightweaver. I just disagree.