WhiteLeeopard

Like it was pointed out, Shallan is wildly unreliable as a narrator. The inconsistencies I'd like to believe are on purpose but I'm a little concerned they could be editing errors. The GB so far seem to be an order to dance a lot of complex steps for little gain, a group of people convinced they are first level players when they are not even close to real power. Their biggest strength is knowledge, and they barely if ever use it. I know some will disagree with me, but you can't put Dalinar, or Navani or even Kaladin next to the GB and say the GB actually have more power over what happens in Roshar than those three characters to put out some examples. The GB's biggest claim to importance this book was: kill a has been no-one cared about, put someone to spy on Dalinar (basically everyone has spies on the KR, just the KR don't have spies on anyone since the Lightweavers are useless at it) and try to kill a Herald which after Jethrien's death is not too important at first glance (it may be important due to the stuff of BAM later on, but we'll see). However, the GB are very interesting to the readers since they bring in Cosmere easter eggs (or in this book easter mountains). Regarding how terrible Lightweavers are as spies I agree. I spent all RoW thinking the KR needed an order of spies and assasins, both to find problems and to eliminate them. Sadly if the LW are the best order they have for that purpose they may need to give up the whole area of spionage. Shallan and her group spent 1 whole year in Urithiru next to T who all the Kholins (as such Shallan by extension too) knew was a traitor, and Shallan didn't even bother to take a look at him. There were some whispers that the Dustbringers were unreliable, but again Shallan did not bother to infiltrate them nor have one of her squires do it. One whole order of KR and the king of Jah Keved were problems a little bit bigger than rusting Ialai. Knowledge falls into Shallan's lap due partly to her powers, but to say she is good at gathering information is like saying Jasnah is good at diplomacy. She does something that faintly resembles it, but at the end of the day has little clue of how to do it.

Following the thread of the Unmade, I wonder if it will be easier or harder for Sja-anat to escape Odium. Could be since T is smarter than Rayse he will be able to fully chain her. Or could be she escapes in the chaos of a new Shard. I know T will be super powered in the next book and know everything there is to know, but I'm not even sure how realistic that is. Sazed has been a Shard for much longer and he is still learning of the Cosmere and his powers. His powers can be excused since Harmony is a hard Shard which cancels itself out. But that is no reason for the lack of knowledge. Sazed did not know of Hoid till he introduced himself, yet T already knew all there was to know of him? (even before stealing his memories). The only arguments to say T knows much more is 1. Cultivation and 2. Brandon wanted Odium (enemy) to be super powerful and Harmony (ally) to be harmless.

With Shallan, nothing is far fetched. It could even turn out that her mom isn't dead and is a Herald and I wouldn't even be too surprised. I just turn off logic and disbelief with her.

Normally that would be enough evidence. Sadly this is Shallan we are talking about. She could totally have been soulcasting and then forgetting on the spot.

Something that annoys me a little bit about the direction of Kaladin's SA arc is that while he began showing both attributes (protecting and leading) it has eventually become solely protecting. Which is why in RoW he had to pigeon hole himself into surgeon although the idea didn't thrill him. It can be argued creating mental healthcare is leading in ideas and leading society towards enlightenment, but I'm not sure I see that as truly leading or simply protecting. He did fund the Windrunners, and that was leading, but he has now left that behind. Kaladin can inspire people, noble, common, scholars, soldiers etc just by walking by, yet that aspect of him has barely been used since WoR. It makes little sense to me that the Fifth Ideal would be reached without embracing both the major and minor attribute, and yet BS hasn't to my eyes developed Kaladin enough in the leadership direction. All that Kaladin has led by so far was in my opinion from charisma and innate personality, but not learning to lead, much like he has spent 4 books learning to protect. I had a vague idea before RoW of "becoming honor" (little h), much like the honorspren, which believe that since they are honor what they do is honorable, but that idea has big thorns behind it. Do we have any WoB or excerpt where any Fifth Ideal KR are mentioned? I can't remember anything straight off, and it could be the number of KR to reach that point was counted in single numbers (maybe double digits max) throughout history, as such not much thought was given to it other than as an ideal. As for the gain, maybe be able to keep Stormlight without leaking like the Fused (or so little as to be negligible)? Kaladin would probably love to be able to float all day.

I don't hate Lirin, I just don't like him. His best version was in WoK flashbacks, and even then he had some growth to do. Afterwards he just regressed further with every book. I disagree with people who say that Lirin and Kaladin are both wrong and only willing to see their paths. That is certainly the case with Lirin, but one of Kaladin's biggest issues is that he thinks his father is right. Kaladin believes his father's path is the correct one, which is where a big dose of his depression comes from, from believing he is walking the wrong path. I loved your post, since you are right and it made me think. Part of Lirin's problem is his inability to see. Lirin was a rebellious darkeyes who got beating back by the system. His son was a rebellious darkeyes who melted the system. Lirin cannot draw false equivalences between Kaladin and himself in his youth, since there is nothing similar in their experiences. If Kaladin were to ask to be trained as a general and eventually control a large swath of the coalition armies and lands he would be granted that. Kaladin has a level of power (even if he probably won't use most of it) which is only exceeded by a handful of people. As such the challanges which broke Lirin are not even an issue any more for Kaladin, and Lirin can't expect his son to end like he did because its impossible. If his son ends broken it will be by very different circumstances. Lirin realizes that when he says something like "We are little people, we can't do anything", and notices that is not true when it comes to his son, but he doesn't bother to internalize that knowledge, just continues on his way acting the same way. If I remember right Lirin says he wouldn't have let Kaladin to die, but he sort of agrees he would have brought him down and let the Fused see him. In my opinion Lirin's greatest fault (other than not emotionally supporting his son) is how naive he is is. He is convinced nothing bad will happen to the KR when they are captured by the Fused. Two elite warriors of a conflict he knows very little about. He decides that he will hand Kaladin over, assuming that he won't be killed since the other KR unconscious weren't killed. Not bothering to think that maybe they will make an exception for Kaladin, since he is not an average KR. He is the first Windrunner, he is maybe the most iconic KR of all, he didn't fall unconscious and kept sabotaging the Singer forces in Urithiru, he was being hunted by a powerful and insane Fused. Did he honestly believe "nothing bad would happen" to his son? Or did he just not care enough? Lirin's statement that Kaladin should have been a good slave was a huge slap in the face out of complete ignorance. Perhaps Lirin has the personality which would allow him to be the perfect slave, happy without rights, freedom or a voice (doubtful), but for people like Kaladin it was death as surely as a spear to the gut. Much like caging a lion. He couldn't be a good slave without eventual suicide any more that he could kill his own father. Hesina was indeed also a disappointment. Seems she used all her willpower by going against her family and marrying Lirin, and has none left over. I expected Lirin to be a problem for Kaladin since WoR, but I was sure Hesina would rise up. Alas, she did not.

Maybe the Listeners will become the first true hybrid human-singer nation, a home for all those who don't want to keep fighting the eternal war. Maybe after book 5 Kaladin will look for a home in which to have peace and be free of the reminders of war and pick the Listeners if they would accept him. Perhaps that would encourage more humans to quit, and Leshwi and Kaladin might interact as the same thing: two warriors who have fought for too long (although Leshwi for much, much more) and who have reached the point where they just want to stop and see a sliver of their peoples living together in peace, no longer caring what happens in the war. Although maybe with a slight preference for Honor's side, since Odium will with 95% certainty destroy the Listeners if he wins, while Honor maybe just 60% or so? Honor's side actions would depend much on how the war was won. I also would like to see more Fused defect in book 5, since after 7000 years, the few sane ones left must be very, very tired. And maybe the first humans to approach/join the Listeners could be simple refugees to break the ice, so it isn't soldiers themselves at first go. All speculation, but quite pleasant one at that .

My hate and indignation for Moash peaked in WoR after he betrayed Kaladin. OB I was grimly satisfied by him, since he met all my expectations. RoW I was pretty indifferent to him, as there were no surprises there, and neither did I expect any even for a second. If anything I was amused by Moash in a gallows humor kind of way. Kaladin spoke the Third Ideal because Moash created a situation that forced him to. Kaladin spoke the Fourth Ideal because Moash created a situation that forced him to say it, when otherwise Kaladin might not have been capable of ever swearing those words. At this rate I'm going to be quite interested in Moash in book 5 to see if he again forces Kaladin to be the first KR to reach the Fifth Ideal (of this batch of KR).

While we cannot know anything for certain until BS shows us, Gavilar seems a stain worse than Sadeas and Amaram combined, or at least on par. Perhaps just as bad as the two of them but with greater capacity.

This thread has sparked two ideas in my mind. 1. Dalinar would become a Fused if he loses, with his soul belonging to Odium. Leshwi is a Fused, and she presumably swore to obey Odium, yet she did whatever she wanted and went to the Listeners without further ado. 2. Considering the idea that Odium swore to spare Kharbranth inhabitants and their spouses, why doesn't Dalinar marry (just go poly) someone from the city for the challange, then divorce them if he wants. I'm sure there is someone of Honor in Kharbranth who would be willing to do this. Running off point 2, why don't they just change laws in the city to make poly marriages legal and Kharbranth inhabitants marry hundreds of people via spanreed? Not sure if this was considered in another thread, I've been really off the forum between OB and RoW. Leshwi said she doesn't think she can bond a spren, but I think it was only a supposition. Creepy thought, and probably correct. Dalinar should make him transfer his Oath to someone else, and if he can't, order him to commit suicide upon losing the contest. But of course Dalinar would not do that. The more I think about it the more I think Honor's perfect champion would be Jasnah. She has the skills, the power, and the ruthlessness to win no matter what (so long as it is possible, ignoring posibilities like fighting a spren, or Odium himself, or Hoid).

I'm not saying he wouldn't know who Mraize is or what he is supposed to do, more that he wouldn't know the way Mraize dealt with issues on a day to day. Basically that Kelsier got the yearly reports, and ignored the daily ones. Not a nobody. Much like Leshwi said, she was part of the important Fused leaders, but among the leaders she was at the bottom. But I hear you, all 3 possible explanations are in their infancy. But what I suspect is that while Shallan and Adolin may have problems with the GB in the near future, they likely won't meet or have problems with Thaidakar for some time.

Whether Kelsier is Thaidakar I've not fully made up my mind. On whether he is the total leader of the GB if he is Thaidakar, probably yes, although the anti arguments are really good (wish I had upvotes left). I agree that Thaidakar's apparent mode of behavior for the GB if he is Kelsier are not typical of him (killing random porters, recruiting Shallan the opposite way of how he recruited Vin, etc). To this I have three different explanations to add to the brainstorming. 1. Kelsier has decided he will protect Scadrial and only Scadrial. In Scadrial he keeps to his old morals (sort of) but outside he is even more heartless than in his worst times in Scadrial 2. Kelsier is very far away from the GB in Roshar, he has probably not met most of the members, and is forced to trust that they are people who would align with him personality wise. The consequences of distant leadership is the same as distant relationships. They get jumbled and their ideals may end up differing without the leader or underlings becoming aware at first 3. Mraize is a very small potato in the GB who has been using Shallan to gain more power inside the GB and get access to more rare resources, but for some time now he was in over his head. Surgebinders are so far the most powerful magical beings in the Cosmere that a normal person can easily become (there are exceptions, but in general this is the case). The game Mraize was playing of keeping Shallan like a useful dog was always bound to fail unless he wised up fast, since Shallan was becoming more and more insanely powerful. Even if Shallan had killed Kelek and fully joined the GB, she would have just removed Mraize after learning the rules. As such the GB appear very opposite of Kelsier's modus operandi because we have just seen Mraize who does not represent the average GB at all. Are any of these explanations correct? Guess we'll have to RAFO :P.

Mraize came off to me in this book like a very little pawn, who believes himself to be important but has little true power. And what we've seen in the past reinforces this. What are the GB's greatest actions when it comes to Mraize? Killing a bunch of random porters, grabbing Shallan's brothers from the middle of nowhere. Oh! And capturing a 13 year old girl without Stormlight! Yay, powerful Mraize, totally. Iyatil seemed a bit more interesting, she could be a good person (don't know as haven't seen her enough). But Mraize always seemed a black hole with big aspirations and little power.

As soon as it happened I thought that they should begin looking into how to break their word in 10 days time. Whether that would harm the spren of Honor, or they could simply stop this by killing Dalinar, perhaps with Nightblood. I've always been very given to drastic measures, but I truly think its better for Dalinar, Roshar and the Cosmere to destroy Dalinar than to let him fall into T's hands. Maybe when Dalinar dies during the duel Szeth could be waiting in Shadesmar to destroy him completely with NB before T can capture him. But we all know that is most likely not going to happen. Right now Cultivation seems to have set up T to become Odium and somehow Dalinar to become Honor. I would much prefer to see Dalinar take both Shards and become War. Odium seems to be a very unstable Shard (all are unstable, but Odium seems extra dangerous with no equilibrium whatsover). War is not a lovely Shard, but there is already constant war on Roshar anyway.

After sleep and having read the whole thread I have some thoughts to add. I read Sanderson partly because I want to see happy endings and optimism prevail. I have absolutely zero desire to read a BS book which ends badly when I KNOW it will take 3 years (at least) for the next one. And if book 5 is the one to end badly that could well be 5 years or more of wait. I have ended up having a great deal of resentment for series which do that, leaving me with a bad taste in my mouth for years, and its one of the ways to make me give up on a series. Of course, everyone is different and enjoys different things, but that is how I feel. I have some issues with Kaladin but overall he is my favorite main character of SA. Some people were saying that he no longer has a purpose or that he is too linear. I agree he is too linear, and I'm not sure BS is completely sure what to do with him next, but Kaladin has a purpose which I don't think I have seen mentioned in this thread. Kaladin represents hope. He is the perfect hero in the eyes of the people, the perfect KR, the perfect watcher on the rim. When the civilians and the common people get in the way of a blade to protect others they don't do it for Dalinar, or Jasnah, or Shallan, or Navani. All of them are too high up in their towers, they people see them with respect and awe, but keep their distance. Kaladin is a huge part of the reason why people have embraced the KR as heroes when 2 years ago they were seen as monsters. That may seem stupid, but as was pointed out during the Jasnah and monarchs conversation, hope is the most important thing. You give up hope and you have lost. The civilians are not the most vital part of SA since they don't have the power to do much, but they are nevertheless the reason why they all fight. Much like the Fused for the Singers. A long time ago BS said he had a list of main characters for the main books. I think he was hesitating between Ash and Navani. Eventually he picked Ash, but in this book I think he changed his mind and swapped Eshonai/Venli for Navani. I'm okay with that, but it makes me wish we'd had Navani flashbacks so this book were fully hers. T is going to be a complete disaster. I know many people in this fandom liked T. I never did. When you steal something because your sick mother needs medicine your intention matters. When you murder someone because your sick mother needs medicine, your intention matters little. There comes a point where they "why" is a lot less important than the "what". It absolutely does not matter T claimed he wanted to save the world, what matters is what he did. On the little things you can take a shortcut. On the big things, you either walk journey before destination or you lose before you arrive. On Ranking the books for me: WoR, WoK and RoW tied, and OB last.