sm1550law
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I think I understand what you are saying, but I think we've been told pretty clearly the opposite. The spren are tiny splinters of the Shards. I don't remember an explicit WoB on that (just Syl calling herself a piece of a god) and the WoB stating that the Orders of Radiants all gain powers from spren that are some portion Honor and some portion Cultivation. Some are more Honor than Cultivation, but they are all some combination of the two. How is it that a connection to the Shards is unnecessary when in fact a connection to a spren is necessary? There are no surgebinders without spren, except for people using Honorblades. It looks like that follows pretty clearly.
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So with it known that the spren which allow for the creation of the Radiants are some combination of Cultivation and Honor, wouldn't Cultivation have had to intentionally collaborated with Honor to create the Honorblades? While the spren appear to have acted without explicit orders from the Shards to create the Radiants, the Honorblades are intentional constructs given by Honor to the Heralds. As the powers granted by the spren bonds mimic what was granted to the Heralds, wouldn't it stand to reason that Honor would have required Cultivation to assist in creating the Honorblades since he is not the sole source of the granted powers?
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You're violating the rules. No responses to posts on that thread.
Anyway, I respect your view, but it doesn't seem to have a basis in the actual books. Read over the interactions between Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin and it is clear that Adolin is not on the same level as either of the other two with regard to his intelligence. He's not an idiot, but he's certainly not the brightest bulb in the box. Almost all of Shallan's witty remarks go over his head. All of Kaladin's subtle insults go ignored. Shallan and Kaladin actually argue about this on their trip out onto the plateau after the imprisonment scenes. Shallan is protective of Adolin and angry at Kaladin for taking advantage of Adolin by making jibes at him that he knows won't be recognized, but Shallan is smart enough to understand. Kaladin isn't the smartest person around either, and he's clearly got a leg up on Adolin, but at the same time Kaladin is worse at social interactions, politics, etc.
They each have their strengths. Adolin has a solid grasp for war, tactics, social interactions and a reasonable understanding of political maneuvering. But he has weaknesses. This is pretty much confirmed by Jasnah's description of him, Navani's view of him, his interactions with Shallan, Kaladin, and others. There is a huge gap between idiot and very intelligent, and he is somewhere in there, probably closer to very intelligent, but also a lot closer to lower end than several of the characters we regularly see. So no, my statement was not the insult you seem to feel it to be, but it is correct.
Either way, as I said in the thread, his personality and how he views what things are important and how to deal with people of all ranks, he's a good fit for the Edgedancers.
If you have a desire to talk about it, I'd ask that you delete your comment to preserve the rules of the thread and continue it here.
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According to the site philosophy, downvotes are reserved for posts which are downright rude and/or aggressive. My post did not qualify for these. I would also point you threads where "responses" aren't welcome are practically nonexistent: in three years on this forum this might be the first instance where I encounter one. That one had several pages long and yeah I forgot I wasn't supposed to respond. People rarely are purposefully malevolent. I would thus suggest you give the interlocutor a chance before you start using the downvote button. This is all explained within the rules of the site. We usually first consider the other has made a mistake before thinking it might be deliberate. A nice reminder would have sufficed. I would have publicly apologized: the end.
Second, I did not attack you, I responded. You said Adolin was not the smartest light bulb (which is basically the equivalent of saying he is dumb) which I strongly disagree with. Each time you will go about and have definite opinion onto a given character, there will be someone to challenge you, no matter which character it might be. I do not believe Kaladin is smarter than Adolin and I have encountered too many very intelligent individuals who do not get word play to base my evaluation of anyone's intelligence on it. Yes, Adolin doesn't get the word play: a lot of people with high IQ don't either. A lot of people which are good at quick come-backs are good at just that... quick come-backs. They might make good humorists and/or actors, they have a given level of smart, but it doesn't make them smarter. Put them into an environment where their "skill" is useless and they flop completely.
Being good at word play bears absolutely no link to anyone's skill with mathematics, physics, literature, entrepreneurship and problem solving. Being able to read other peoples, being able to sense when others are lying or hiding something, being able to adapt your strategy to yield the maximum result in any given fight however is a sign of talent into problem solving and analytic skills which most smart people do possess on various levels.
I say Adolin is very smart because he effortlessly use his every basic knowledge to craft imaginative strategies in a time of high stress. He always out-thinks his opponents and when he is stuck, he rapidly finds another strategy. Kaladin isn't able to do the same: Kaladin failed to comprehend the larger scale impacts of his small scale strategy making. Kaladin isn't seeing the bigger game and would never reach Adolin's level when it comes to higher scaled games. All Kaladin has done in two books is open confrontation which he won because he has stormlight on one side and skill with a spear on the other. Adolin has won fights by relying on his wits, not just his physical skills.
There is also a difference in between sounding smart and being smart. Kaladin sounds smart, but he hasn't done much smart within the course of two books. Adolin doesn't sound smart, but he has done more smart than most characters within two books. Unassumingly so. So while yes, Jasnah and probably Shallan are likely "smarter" than Adolin (though I suspect Adolin outranks Jasnah when it comes to strategy and game playing as her skill sets are philosophy and deep thinking: she has very little field experience), Adolin is at least as smart as Kaladin and certainly smarter than Dalinar.
The last scene in WoR was Adolin out-thinking the Parshendi trapping them by using knowledge Shallan dropped on him. So while Kaladin was busy trying to sound smart, Adolin is the one who actually listened and when the time come, he is the one who used the knowledge to achieve something. On his side, Kaladin won because he is a Radiant, because he can have Syl transform from one weapon to another: he had an advantage. Adolin has none: all his had was his mind. To me, this is a great scene for Adolin which does show us there is more to him than we have initially thought of.
We can agree to disagree, but I would invite you to look again at Adolin's actions. Adolin is a listener, so when everyone is busy trying to awe everyone by their wittiness, he quietly listens. While it seems it goes above his head, he is the one who uses the knowledge afterwards. Like when he quotes poetry to his father after having spent a boring afternoon listening to it. Or when Shallan explains his about the chasmfiend: he does get it. He got it the moment she started speaking, but he pretended he didn't because he expected her to expect he didn't.
Brandon writes Adolin as a young man everyone consistently dismiss: they dismiss his skills on the battle field just as they dismiss his intellectual skills, but when push comes to shove, he shows his true colors.
This being said, I didn't mean to start up on the front foot. If the examples available in the first two books aren't enough, then I hope the next book will help proving me right. If not, then I will have to admit having been wrong and I will need to revise my character assessment.
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Again, I appreciate your view of the character, but I disagree with your interpretation at this point. I'm glad you found a character you so passionately defend.
As for the downvote, I believe that your post, in the setting of that thread, met the site criteria. You removed it, so I removed my downvote. Simply because I did not make an account or post for the last several years doesn't mean I haven't read the threads and made myself aware of the rules. I do think it fairly inappropriate that you chastise me, twice now, for that, when the original infraction causing my downvote was your error.
That said, I don't think you need to change your assessment of Adolin and neither do I. I have a different view on intelligence than you do and we apply that perspective to the characters we read. You see him one way, I see him another. We have likely three books to go with these set of characters, so we'll likely see a lot of changes and growth to each of them. We will see what smart and stupid things they each do before the end.
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Enough with the downvotes already. I have stated my position: I hate downvotes with a passion and I never use them. So yes I do get irritated when they are used against myself unless I purposefully write a post I know will get on some individual bad side. I have apologized, you have removed the downvote, everyone is happy and I will sure remember not to reply in this particular thread.
For the rest, I regularly change my assessment of characters based on new evidences as they pop out, new WoB, new released chapters. This does include my favorite which is why, if you ever feel bored enough to read the stuff I have written three years ago, you would noticed my dialogue has significantly changed. I do feel readers aren't giving Adolin enough credit for his achievements and I do hope the next books will help reinforce my position. If it does the opposite, then yes, I will have to revise my assessment which isn't something negative, just something which happens.
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sm1550law replied to 1stBondsmith's topic in Cosmere Discussion
First: "Taln" is actually Jezrien. As described by Nale, "Praise Yaezir, Herald of Kings. May he lead in wisdom. If he ever stops drooling." The drooling might be Nale saying that Gawx is a drooling idiot, or that Jezrien is a drooling idiot. From other references, it seems pretty clear he is talking about Jezrien. The two people most fitting of that insult are the beggar from WoK and "Taln". From Kalak's first description of Jezrien, "He seemed so cold. Like a shadow caused by heat and light falling on someone honourable and true, casting this black imitation behind." I see the words "black imitation" as referring to either his skin color or the shadow cast on his soul and purpose. I tend to believe it means both things in this instance. From Teft, the Makabaki "worship Jezrien, though they don't accept him as a figure from the Vorin religion. They name him the only god." So we know that the "Taln" Dalinar had with the ardents looks Makabaki. Somehow I don't see a group of people picking someone that looks nothing like themselves to be their one and only god. Brandon is pretty solid in structuring his in world mythologies to mimic the way real world mythologies are built, and this is one standard practice. Gods resemble the people that worship them (if they resemble people at all). So basically, Taln is Jezrien and when reunited with the Honorblade that Kaladin recovered from Szeth, he will at least recover enough to remember who he is. Second: Adolin will become the second Edgedancer we see. His murder of Sadeas has created those cracks in his soul that need to be there for a spren to fill in the empty spaces. Adolin doesn't look to be a primary character, so I don't expect him to be the first of any of the Radiant Orders. Making him the second one of an Order keeps with the "secondary, but still noteworthy" motif Brandon seems to be running with for his character. Brandon confirmed that Adolin's shardblade used to belong to an Edgedancer, but something more would need to happen than for Adolin to merely speak the oaths of the Edgedancers. Adolin already respects his sword as if it is alive, refusing to name it since he thinks it already has one. Maybe he gets sent out (full out exile, diplomatic exile for murdering Sadeas, or while the investigation is pending). He ends up in Azir because that is one of the few kingdoms that didn't just completely ignore Dalinar's warnings so he sent his son to help them or establish stronger ties. Lift does something with Regrowth in order to try to heal something wrong with Adolin, but the Regrowth affects both Adolin and his shardblade, healing the "break" in both Adolin and the spren by joining them together, filling the in cracks in both. Right now we really don't have any grasp on the limits of Regrowth or whether it can affect both spren and people, or just people. While Adolin may not seem like the ideal fit, based upon what we see from Lift, they have been described as "the most articulate and refined of the Radiants. They were considered elegant things of beauty. But also would ignore things of great import in favor of smaller things, as some would see it." and "although they were not the most demanding of orders, their graceful, limber movements hid a deadliness that was, by this time, quite renowned; also, they were the most articulate and refined of the Radiants." Adolin might not be the smartest light bulb in the box, but he's not an idiot, and pretty much all of that description of the Edgedancers fits him pretty solid.