Disorganizer

Yes. However: Taravangian is from Kharbranth, which is not Vorin. ( or at least, Vorin doesnt have to be the dominant belief system there). And even if he was Vorin, chances are, that he would do anything to make his master plan come to fruition. If he has no qualms about assassinating world leaders, he wouldnt even blink if he is convinced he needs to become literate. Amaran: As i said before, one of the main storylines in Words of Radiance is to establish to the world how duplicitous Amaram is. Furthermore, just like Taravangian, he has a secret agenda that he pursues relentlessly as well. Storm Wardens Those are explicitly stated to be exempt from the rule, like Ardents. And as far as we know, Storm Wardens dont seem to occupy political/military positions either. Renarin : That i dont know or i dont remember.

@FiveLate your comment isnt that sound, i am afraid. 1. Well, nobody said it was "common". 2. "The subscriptions of the text would be revealed" - and this is supposed to be an argument AGAINST secretly learning how to read? Just because it is desirable for the women who wrote those for people not to understand their comments, doesnt mean it is right, or even likely. Many of the marginalia in medieveal manuscripts in monasteries [what a glorious alliteration!] werent meant to be seen by the abbot (or anyone else for that matter) either, since most of them were either humerous, slanderous or even pornographic in nature. And yet they were made and discovered all the same. One might think it is just not very smart to disclose private information or commentary so openly. 3. As for Amaram - who said he isnt faking it? I mean come on, one of the major themes in Book 2 was to reveal how duplicitous he is to the world.

aand here we are, going full circle - scribes cant be trusted! (muahahahahahahah!) - thus you are gonna learn how to read. Just kidding. but the problem is still... there.^^ I think Alethi ( like us) need to compromise on that. For me, curiosity and control freakism wins.

Thats a really good point, hadnt thought of that. How ruinous showing your reading skills is, depends on how deeply rooted those beliefs are in the nobility. ( not so much the common people - Alethkar is not a democracy). Also, you could just pretend you were wondering what the text said. People DO that some time^^

Exactly. I didnt get it at first either, apparently, this is supposed to be more of a gut-feeling poll then a discussion. 'nuff said.

I think you are exceedingly cruel for making us chose between those^^ I think its like chosing between a) a premium Pizza (any brand or restaurant that you have an emotional attachment to) with all your favorite toppings (mistborn) and [For me, Mistborn was the first epic i read after a long period of basically reading nothing, so it is dearer to me than most other works.] Grandmas " i love my grandkids so i worked for 2 days and used half my pension on this " sunday dinner ( Stormlight, i guess). Chosing is difficult, i think it depends on what you value most: Writing: Stormlight, although the margin is razor thin. Main Characters: Mistborn. More diverse, and more complicated. And with more wit. Shallan is the exception here, as i find her much more interesting than vin. Side Characters: The sheer number of them gives Stormlight an unfair advantage . On the Mistborn side, Me'lan and Steris (as of Bands of Mourning) stand out. Scope: It feels like its Stormlight, although objectively it isnt. There is an actual apotheosis happening on Scadrial after all. Combat: About equal. Mistborn has a slight edge here. Gritty, Up close and personal, and steel/iron makes better mind-movie-material. But thats just me. Magic System/Innovation: Stormlight. There is just more to work with here, more to discover. Roshar is a much bigger canvas and its full of novel surprises. Maybe that is deliberate though, since Scadrial is intentionally earth-like.Surgebinding is screaming cool, allomancy is more subdued. Romance: About equal, but its too soon to say. Best examples of both: Wax/Steris was handled very well. ( Vin/Elend was... blander than i would have liked, to be honest.) For my reading of Stormlight the definitive romance scene was Kal and Shallan surviving the Highstorm together. Disorganizer out

Man, half a year of basically no progress ( on Oathbringer) and then BAM, hes done. Seems like yesterday - and at the same time it feels like an eternity.

So, lets recap what we have established so far: 1. Alethi are in fact quite aware of this problem and are trying to mitigate that. 2. Husband/wife teams soften this problem up quite a bit. 3. The philosophical ( as opposed to the religious) side of vorinism isnt as unforgiving as one might think, thus: 4. Some male vorin characters in the book can indeed read ( and more may be lurking in the shadows), so my guess wasnt all that off - Dalinar is just a bad example to pick, since he isnt as willing to comprimise as others might be. 5. Alethi script is actually some kind of alphabet ( Man, that post was cool. Kudos to a fellow linguist!) Did i miss something?

Thats why i suspected that people like Sadeas and Sabariel do know how to read. but thats RAFO^^ I think you are right.

Savanorn makes a really good point, with 2 small issues. a) We are working on the premise that everyone can inititate and sustain a happy marriage though, and this IS kind of unrealistic. Since we brought up Kaladin - he is a military officer with need of good intel, and yet he isnt married, he has no sister and his mother isnt immediately available either. The closest thing he has to a woman he can trust is ( as strange as it is) Shallan - and over 1200 pages of Brandon, he didnt trust her either! Also, these are soldiers we are talking about. For the Alethi, fighting on the same area for an extended period of time, made having your family with you at all times a realistic prospect. But this is a special case. Not even with all our modern transportation is this a given, not in Vietnam, not in Korea, not in Europe, and not in the Middle East. With politicians, it IS relatively easy to have your family with you though.

Yes, I forgot about the bookseller. Its been a while^^ I do not think arranged marriages are safer though - people betray each other for personal reasons just as often as for political ones. My example still holds: Isabella hated Edward cheating (with men! i myself am not judgemental about this, but a 14th century hardline catholic sure as hell would have been) and sidelining her. Mel Gibson got a LOT of things wrong in his movie, but this aspect of their marriage was about right. Isabella was indeed considered a great beauty in her time, and for her ( essentially the best match that any other man could dream of) being slighted for some dude, must have been infuriating. Also, while she was married to Edward in order to secure peace between England and France over a dispute in Gascony, for most of her time as Queen, France (allied with the scots) and England were enemies. In fact, her french pedigree would be the justification for England to start the Hundred Years War... So no - arranged marriages do not guarantee loyalty. Still, I probibly gave this topic more thought than it deserved. I think it is also because of my own obsession with and reliance on reading/writing ( which many of you surely share with me ). I just have difficulties imagining a scenario where i am deliberately illiterate - let alone in a dangerous position of power. Can you imagine what it would be like? If i was illiterate, literally my first action would be to learn how to read. Curiosity alone would win me over. (As you probably have discovered- my own relationships have left me quite cynical. If you are happily married things might look different.)

I will check the glyph translation out when i get home, thx alot! Wives are something i didnt consider well enough true, it weakens my argument significantly. Call me a cynic though - i have a hard time accepting that all married people are able to trust each other completely. (My own relationships were certainly messier than that). Also If Alethi practice arranged marriages ( especially the nobility), instead of marrying for love (like in most pre-enlightenment societies), trusting your wife can be just as dangerous as trusting a colleague. (Strangely, Kaladins childhood friend Laral could be an example for BOTH options. Although there was the stated possibility that she and Kaladin would marry (hopefully) for love, she agreed to marry Rillir out of status considerations. Rillirs "winning personality" seems to have played little part in their engagement). For a historical example: Edward II and Isabella of France. (yes, the two from braveheart. According to one story, she stabbed him - try not to flinch - in the with a iron hot poker until he died in agony. After that she and her new lover set up a regency and tried to deny Edwards son his rule). This is mostly speculation though. Dalinar and Navani might very well have chosen to marry for love. Adolin also doesnt seem to be restrained by some kind of early arrangement, despite being obviously old enough to marry someone. Jasnah is also not betrothed to anyone, and shallan... well, her engagement with Adolin might be an arranged one, with personal feelings playing no part (at least at first), but it has never been against her will either. Stormlight 3 will hopefully bring some answers to that. ( Personally, i am more of a Shallan/Kaladin guy. For me, their moment in the chasm is Brandons most romantic scene yet. Beautifully written, simple, elegant, not a drop of kitsch, a quiet understanding between two very different and yet similar people lost in a storm, not just of water and rain, but of their lives changing faster than they could fathom. Also, i AM a sucker for rainy romance.)

TBH - I am not American or in fact a native speaker ( I hope my English is copacetic though), the joke with the cookies is one of the things that always eluded me. Did I do something wrong ?! I mean i like cookies as much as the next bloke, but...

Man, this was a quick and warm welcome. As for RPG, i used to play, but i dont really have the time atm , since i actually AM writing my thesis xD. Thanks for the pointer anyway. Next month i should be free to really dive into this forum. I did however post a (imho rather ineresting) question for the Roshar people here, check it out if you want^^. The cookie was delicious - Disorganizer out

A Year or so ago, when I reached a natural stopping point reading Stormlight 2, i started wondering about Alethi society in general, and specifically gender roles in vorinism. (Ohh god, i sound like a judgemental feminist crusader already. It shouldnt be like this, should it?. I assure you that my reasons for pondering this are purely academic.) I send this question as an E-mail to Brandon, but got the "Dear Fan" letter, with a whiff of RAFO. Thus, i am posting it to the community: Vorinism splits skills and occupation into male and female, we call those male and female arts. While fighting and politics are supposed to be male, all writing (except for a small selection of glyphs, which could be argued are more labels and heraldry than real writing) is female. While minor rules like male/female food are being ignored (Shallan ignores it at least once with little hesitation), the bit about writing being female, seems to be observed through all echelons of Alethi society, right up to Dalinar, arguably the most powerful vorin person alive. I cant remember a Veden example either. Kabsal is an ardent, so he doesnt count either, especially since ardents are specifically barred from holding positions of power. At the same time however, virtually ALL military and ( more importantly) political posts are being held by men. The only exception to this are, naturally, scribes and.. what we would call... personal assistants? Alethkar, by all appearances practices agnatic primogeniture. Correct me if i am wrong but The line of succession is presented as: Gavilar, Elohkar, Dalinar and i presume Adolin. Jasnah has never been considered a candidate despite being 8 years his senior, being arguably just as fit a ruler as him (perfect is a word actually used to describe her). [This point is a bit shaky, since she cannot be a warrior, but still]. All the military officers (even the Alethi equivalent of "desk sergeants" i believe) are male, so are all the Highprinces. Aesudan may be considered an exception (as she "manages the kingdom in Ehlokars absence"), however, it is very clear that she is a queen consort, not a queen regnant, and what little we know of her, makes her look more like a early 20th century American socialite than a ruler. Furthermore, to me, Vorinism seems ( not quite as much as Confucianism, but similar) to be more of a philosophy than a religion. Also (unlike with, say, the shin) there seems to be little fear of divine punishment. Shallan doesnt think of her eating male food as sin and breaks that rule in a heartbeat, and covering her safehand is more a matter of modesty and habit than actual fear of reprisal. And not many instances of actual divine intervention are mentioned ( i can only remember Syls disappearance after Kaladin broke his vow - which has little to do with the issue here.) Yet written communication is not a small matter for ruling a country as advanced as Alethkar, or commanding Alethkars prized military, or gathering intelligence. This means that every powerful vorin man must completely entrust his scribes with all kinds of sensitive information ( intelligence reports, military orders, royal decrees, tax and census data etc etc) without being able to verify them. That strikes me as highly dangerous in an environment like the Alethi court and war council, to say the least. The books do comment on that problem: In one train of thought, Dalinar himself doubts the honesty of his scribes, and people di try to fill scribe positions with family members and wives/daughters of loyal retainers, but still, this paradox is jarring: Imagine being in a position of power while all your information is essentially hearsay. Even if Alethi use seals (and similar devices) to verify documents, their contents are still subject to dishonest scribes who read them aloud. Instead of an elaborate forgery, all it takes is one bribed scribe. So it is really hard to imagine that at least some shrewd Highprinces ( lets say Sadeas or Sabariel) havent secretly learned how to read and write. [ If Alethi has an alphabet, this is relatively easy. If however, Alethi consists of logograms (like Chinese), this will take considerably more effort, so that would be an argument against it. Knowing Brandons habit of dipping into Asian culture, this isnt unlikely. ] I apologize for this long post, but i d like people with more knowledge of the books ( and more guilt-free leisure time) give me their opinions on this. Or maybe i just overlooked something in the books, and all that was one big inane exercise.