Krandacth

As far as I could tell, most of the songs were originally composed by the first generation of the listeners who escaped their Gods. They were then added to/revised, and new songs composed by successive generations. There were some few others that are referenced by the songs we have examples of (e.g. "'Tis said it was warm in the land far away\\When Voidbringers entered our songs") from (I assume) between desolations, but they still seem to be composed by Listeners. Also, the listeners are naturally symbiotic with Spren, being native to Roshar, so they would have had many of the more normal forms before. IIRC it is stated that most forms ended up being considered to be "given by the gods", but that was probably because the gods could pretty much force forms on the Listeners: any form their Gods made/let them have was "given" by them, even if it wasn't made by them; and after so long having forms dictated to them, they would likely struggle to return to the old ways.

No, it is less serious than that (your example having been actually illegal in many countries 100 years ago). I would say cannibalism would be about right, from my reading of SA.

See: Derethil and the Wandersail. While this is poignant to Kaladin, I wonder what Szeth's reaction would have been? Also, many people seem to think of Shinovar as some kind of peaceful Utopia, but what lies under the surface of every apparent Utopia in literary history? Like @Calderis, I'd bet Shinovar is every bit as dystopian as the Oceania of Orwell's 1984.

That is exactly my current theory on the bonding... algebra?.. on Roshar, yes :-)

I am a strong supporter of this theory! (See the following post for the majority of my unfortunately scant evidence.) With regards to Kabsal's description: he says they are the theological opposite of Voidbringers: if Voidbringers are evil and hateful Spren, Dawnsingers are good and kindly Spren. However, we know that Voidbringers are Listener forms derived from such evil and hateful Spren. Thus, by Kabsal's foundation for his description, Dawnsingers should be the theological opposite of whatever Voidbringers are, i.e. Listener forms derived from good and kindly Spren! Despite not amounting to much, all evidence I've seen seems to point to this theory being true.

Both these connected theories actually have a lot of evidence. 1) The plains are a symmetrical rock formation. 2) The DawnCities are built around apparently "natural" symmetrical rock formations that are attributed to the DawnSingers, that can be simulated using soundwaves through a solid medium (cymmatics). 3) The Listeners song already quoted in this thread says that it was "not their gods" (known to refer specifically to Odiumspren/the Unmade, not all spren), but that the "power [is] made known in the tomes of [their] clan". So, 1) and 2) suggest that the plains were shattered by cymmatics, and therefore possibly by the power of the DawnSingers, if the attribution in 2) is factual. Shallan makes this connection to cymmatics and the DawnCities in world, describing how the vibrations would have shaken the stone to sand in chasms while leaving it intact in the plateaus, then the highstorms washing away the sand. This suggests to me that it is a connection Brandon didn't want us to miss. If we add in 3) then the power attributed to the DawnSingers is also "made known in the tomes of [the Listener] clan," which (together with the Listeners predating humans on Roshar) strongly suggests that the Listeners, in some Form, were the DawnSingers. Interesting side note on that quoted line: it mentions tomes, which is a term usually refering to old books. However, Eshonai specifically notes that the writing that the nimbleforms have been doing is very unlistener, and that they had to invent a new script to do it... So what tomes does the song refer to??

I personally think the premise of the OP is right, and that anything that can bond with spren of Honor, Cultivation or Adonalsium can also bond with spren either of or corrupted by Odium; furthermore, anything with such a bond would be, to some extent, "controlled" by Odium. The italic text above is important because it is supported by Dalinar's vision set in the Pure Lake, and fits with @Fulminato's point about many natively-Rosharan bonds being between a given animal and a specific kind of Spren: A Chasmfiend may only bond with gravity Spren, let's say, but the gravity Spren may potentially be corrupted by Sja'anat, which is highly likely to be one of the Unmade. However, I think the terminology might be off, classing everything that bonds a Spren of or corrupted by Odium as a Voidbringer. I would instead reserve that term for anything natively Rosharan that bonds with an Odium-influenced Spren, and is transformed as a result. I would suggest that humans bonded to Odium-influenced Spren, in the same manner as Surgebinders bond Honor/Cultivation Spren, would instead be Voidbinders. This would also fit the often-quoted WoB from after WoR: that we haven't yet seen Voidbinding, despite having seen StormForm.

He also says he doesn't remember anything about that day, so this is almost definitely speculation on his part, likely based on the impossibility (to the rational mind) of seeing the future, and at least a small element of cultural bias against prophecy. As to the theory itself, I really like it! I suggested something similar ages ago, but that was before I was so well versed in Realmatics as the OP. I think the two work really well together though, and mine suggests a reason for the ruthlessness and the alien language: his immersion in the spiritual realm opened him to Cultivation directly. Here's a link to the thread, if you're interested:

As @Toaster Retribution alluded to, Kaladin explicitly thinks back on how he told his story when Shallan explains about Heleran's death, and realises that he withheld the fact that he killed the Shardbearer when talking of the events that led to Amaram's betrayal of his squad, a habit that he had got into after many beatings for lying as a slave. So Shallan knows that he was there when Heleran was killed, but doesn't have the information necessary to make the same leap Kaladin has. In fact, if anything, Shallan is likely to see Kaladin as even more of a kindred spirit as a result of the version she's heard: Amaram killed a member of her family, then killed all of Kaladin's surrogate family to cover up some elements of it.

Unless someone else somehow mimics the exact state of the Lost Radiant's oaths, duplicating the Spren's "definition", and then continues to live by those oaths. That would be like unfreezing the fire for a locked flamespren, right? That's my theory (expressed in different words in the link).

I always thought it was the opposite: accurately and statically defining some characteristic of a Spren locks that characteristic; Dead Spren are locked in all ways; Therefore, Dead Spren are Spren whose characteristics have all been statically defined. Now, how can these Spren, who are some of the most complex of Spren, have been captured in all of their complexity? I think that depends on what it takes to define them. I would argue that they are cognitive manifestations of the physical behaviours that they are attracted to: a windspren IS a specific gust of wind, whilst that gust exists in the physical realm, and that gust wholly defines that Spren while it blows; The Spren exists both before and after the gust, but not in the physical realm. Combine this with the in-world description that Radiantspren are the cognitive manifestations of the Radiant's oaths (which seems near enough to the truth), then they will exist both before and after the oaths, but only manifest in the physical realm while those oaths exist, and are defined in all ways by those oaths. So, how does this come back to dead Spren being statically defined, I hear you ask? Well, we have also heard from Hesina that Spren are drawn to change, or at least dynamic examples of what they are named for: Windspren are drawn to wind that is blowing, flamespren are drawn to flames that are burning, honourspren are drawn to a person acting with honour*. If flame burns out then it has continued to its natural, dynamic conclusion and ceased to be, releasing the Spren. If a person dies while not contravening their honour, then their honour comes to its natural, dynamic conclusion and ceases to be, releasing the Spren. If that person breaks their oaths, then their honour and oaths STILL EXIST without having reached a natural conclusion, but are no longer being acted upon, and so remain STATIC. What would happen to a flamespren if the fire it had been drawn to was somehow frozen - not put out, but somehow made to stop burning whilst still existing, unable to go out? Or a windspren if its breeze were stopped without dissipating? *Supposedly... I'm not sure Honourspren is an accurate description of what Syl is.

Thanks. I hadn't noticed, but now it's all I'll see. :-( Edit: on the other hand, I haven't seen you around before, so Welcome to the Shard! Help yourself to cookies, they are delicious and nutritious.

I've always suspected that whatever is going on with her is related to Taravangian's "day of brilliance", in which he too spent a lot of time raving and writing interesting and convoluted patterns on the wall in a language no-one understood (i.e.apparent gibberish). Combined with my theory that his "day of brilliance" was in fact him acting as a conduit for Cultivation (and maybe some Odium), this means the woman could have been channeling a Shard (which would likely be very interesting to Pattern).

@Calderis You took the words right out of my mouth (and WoB right out of my editted post :-P). Unfortunately, it is my thumbs transmitting my words on here, and that would have been too much for them to manage on my morning commute. Kudos for picking up their slack with such eloquence.

Actually, I believe there was a WoB that suggests that Brandon considers Cultivation one of the most potentially destructive/dangerous of the Shards... EDIT: Actually, I had it skewed in my head, but I think it's still relevant: http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=944#8 This suggests that, if anything, Cultivation is more similar to Ruin than Preservation. (Mistborn era 2)

On this note, I've always seen the epigraph from the in-universe WoR about... Melisshi or something, IIRC?.. as being weak evidence that squires would join the same order as their Knight: It talks about how the person in question was frustrated that he could not progress, as he wished his oaths to be straightforward, but the oaths of Lightweavers were more nebulous, or something. I would guess it would take disengaging from whatever Bonds/proto-Nahel Bonds develop through squire-hood to then be able to find a Spren of a more suitable order to Bond. That is probably a more high cost and high risk path than many squires would wish to tread.

Also, I believe that Adolin cut the bloodied cuffs off his shirt/jacket/whatever he was wearing. So, not only did he go wandering off on his own in the rough vicinity and at the rough time of the assassination, if anyone noticed the disappearing cuffs then that would be more than enough circumstantial evidence for the Alethi, given someone like Ialai backing it. For my 2c on the wider discussion, I agree with variability-of-morality argument that has been put forward so eloquently by a few sharders. Kudos given.

Granted. You suffer I wish half of my commuter trains aren't being cancelled in August.

My head canon (posted in another thread already) is that the Aimians are who the Radiants were fighting leading up to the Recreance, and that they were fighting because the Aimians believed something at least similar to what Nale believes, that the existence of Surgebinders somehow increases the chance of a Desolation. Even if that isn't the reason, I think it very likely that the Radiants were fighting the Aimians, and that, in the hundreds/thousands of years since the Recreance, the legends about the various non-human adversaries of the Radiants have been conflated under the heading of "Voidbringer". The reason I think the Aimians started such a large conflict for what they thought was the greater good (and therefore need redemption, having been wrong) is that this would be a great case of unreliable narration on a global scale: many descriptions and stories of Voidbringers accurately describe Odium-based listener forms, but many describe one or the other form of Aimian, who (it will transpire) are kinda-sorta good guys.

I recently accidentally convinced myself that Dalinar must have asked for something that could be interpreted as spiritual healing (either that, or the Nightwatcher did that as a curse...). So I would question @Extesian's assertion that all boons/curses are cognitive (the WoBs don't say anything about the cognitive in their answers, just that playing with different realmatic -dna is thinking along the right lines). Anyway, I came to this conclusion while wondering what it would look like if someone tried to magically heal someone's spiritweb after the loss of a loved one (the case in point was Kaladin and Tien). As far as I could see there were two options: * Progressive, where broken Connections find new endpoints. This is how I think mundane spiritual healing happens, but more slowly/naturally. Magically, this would take the form of instantly developing new strong feelings and affinities for tangentially related things. * Regressive, where broken Connections are also detached at source. This would take the form of all feeling for (and memory of feeling/opinion for) that person being wiped, as the Connections that embody those feelings are removed from one's soul. I think it is important to note that Dalinar hasn't had all memory of her wiped, as he still has the memories she is involved in, but anything at all that would let him form and opinion of her is gone. This matches exactly the second option for magical spiritual healing. I wonder if the Nightwatcher did this in part to prepare his spiritweb to be broken in just the right way by Gavilar's death... (Tying into my headcanon that the shape of the break in someone's soul is both determined by what caused it and determines the kind of Spren they are compatible with).

I think the suggestion of the OP is that they do both, with the primary function being not crushing themselves/flying, and the intelligence boost being a side-effect. Another example of this would be the extremely-simple minded parshmen compared to bonded Listeners of any form (even dullform is said to have greater capacity for thought than slaveform). This is, of course, assuming the Listener bond operates on a principle at least mildly related to the rest of the native fauna. The flip side of that coin, however, is that the native hominids are only of comparable intelligence to humans when bonded, and only non-native "equines" are noted by Khriss for their heightened intelligence. From this we could infer that the fauna of Roshar has not had to evolve such sophisticated biological intelligence because whatever they had was augmented by Spren/environmental investiture. So bonded Chasmfiends are practically of similar intelligence to say, T-rex', but would be less intelligent still without their Spren (but no one could find that out because the spren-less Chasmfiend would crush itself almost immediately).

This scene has actually been discussed quite a lot, with people arguing both sides pretty strongly. While I can see your point (and actually believe that, if a blade is to be revived, it should be by Adolin), I actually read Duck as just his honed battle instincts responding instantly to having lost track of his adversary with evasive maneuvers. Though I do like and subscribe to your interpretation, it certainly isn't proof :-( (There was another scene just before this that I found much more compelling, if only from a narrative perspective. I'll find a link to the discussion and edit it in here at some point.) I also read the "How... What could he do...?" as Adolin scrambling to try to find a way to fight back: How... could he win against Szeth? What could he do... to fight back? This interpretation is strengthened by the fact that the next line seems to be answering these half-formed questions before his brain can even finish thinking them, showing to the readers just how plain it is to Adolin that there is no hope of him winning. But hey, mine is just one interpretation :-)

In support of this theory: in The Chasm Scene, many comments are made by both Kaladin and Shallan about how intelligent the Chasmfiend looks/behaves. Furthermore, as this is the only prolonged stretch of time around a Chasmfiend that anyone on Roshar has survived (other than hunts, which are calculated to apply insurmountable force from the moment it appears until it is dead), it is reasonable to assume that this scene would, in fact, be the only primary source available in-world on which to make such a judgement. I like it :-) what implications does this have about the Reshi and their Isles? Maybe they are right to follow Their will? :-P

My take on this has always been that the Shin religion (in the absence of Spren) developed much like it did among early Earth cultures, worshipping the spirits of the things around them that influence their lives (with a few quirks particular to Roshar and its history, like their obsession with Stone): think of the Native Americans, Australian Aborigines or Ancient Egyptians (particularly the last, regarding sun worship). Bear in mind that most religions had to start relatively recently on Roshar, as religions go. 4500 years is less time than the ancient Egyptian religion lasted, in its various forms. The rest of Roshar could literally see spirits, and so revered them. The Spren being much more drawn to change, however, led not to the worship of objects, like the sun, but behaviours, like the cultivation of nature or the 'Glories of the Almighty'. That was my interpretation, anyway :-)

I like this, purely because reading it made me look at a few lines in the Taln PoV chapter very differently. He thinks about there being flames everywhere, then wonders why 'they' aren't screaming. Maybe these two are less connected than we are meant to think. Maybe 'Taln' just thinks it would be right for everyone to be screaming... Also, IIRC there isn't any particular inflection suggested by the tone of that chapter, leaving us to infer his horror by our own empathy. In fact, at one point he refers to the torture as 'blissful' or something (because 'it meant life'). We also assume he is still fundamentally good because of the words he speaks, but, by his own internal admission, they come out completely unbidden by him, 'as they had come so many times before,' or something. There is every chance that, were he more lucid and in control of his words, that isn't what he would choose to be saying. I like this a lot (even if I am not convinced yet :-P).