kais
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Posts posted by kais
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Overall
Much improved! Well done! It still reads pretty tropey and like you're writing a satire, but I'm enjoying it so not much bothered. The only place I really hung up (other than the mother who is still barely two dimensional) was at the end, where we learn about the brother being 'special' but no one really emotes on it.
1 hour ago, Mandamon said:The dialogue is probably the weakest point.
Agreed. It's better, but still very much reads like satire.
As I go
- I think your epigraph would be more powerful if it was just the quote and not the bit before it
- pg 1: I think my confusion could be helped if you spent a few sentences describing who was in the carriage (the 'they' referred to early on). Otherwise when you mention M, we have no idea who she is. Right now as far as I know there are two people in the carriage
- much better with the sister!
- LOL 'I could live in such a house' I love her
- pg 4: I still don't really buy why they are going to this dinner when there is every red flag in the book. I think we might need a bit more motivation if this isn't just tropey satire
- pg 4: To the best wine in the Southern Fold <-- ahh okay. Maybe just a little bit more discussion around this on the first page to really get it through our heads?
- pg 5: again, the mother comes from absolutely nowhere
- pg 6: it seems very weird that he would be allowed to use a privy where he could potentially hear someone in distress
- pg 9: so they got invited because of wine, but the count wants the daughter. How did he find out about her? I think a line or two about her helping with the wine, or how she came to the count's attention, would be nice
- pg 11: ah much better with why they stay the night
- pg 12: there is a lot of telling, and sometimes showing and then telling.
- pg 14: This is no ordinary brat <--this seems like a giant understatement. Why aren't they more concerned? Also introducing a chosen one trope is...it clashes with the vibe of the story. I was on board until this, and now I feel unmoored.
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6 hours ago, The Unknown Order said:
How would I go about joining this?
It’s all in the first post in this thread. Just read through and follow the instructions
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This used to be three chapters, which were condensed to this one and then a shorter one (that follows in two weeks). As such I think it still might need cuts. It was always meant to be more of a character investment chapter, as we don’t yet have much backstory on Yorn and Nick as we do on Sal and G4. It was also meant to be a fairly major arc for Sal in terms of taking charge, but her character is so mild that I’m not sure that comes across (especially for new readers).
All thoughts welcome. If you’re bored or if you feel like it doesn’t properly arc or push the plot, I’d like to know that, too. Thanks!
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Would anyone mind if my sub is a touch over limit this week? It's at 5662 right now. I'm going to see if I can skim it down but thought I'd ask, just in case.
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Thanks everyone!
Confusion as to why G4 doesn't know what happened in the previous books. I tried to hang a lantern on it with this;
SpoilerWhat a maddening, depressive waste of a nearly six-year journey. She’d learned a lot, certainly—languages, cultures, food, religions, especially after she got out of the Charted Systems (that had taken less than a month). But settees were old tech. They couldn’t pull news feeds and data packets while the FTL was engaged, and when she landed to get information, she generally didn’t have time, or rounds, to get the latest Charted Systems download. Which meant the past six years had been a waste and she was galactically out of touch with both the Charted Systems, and her people.
Romance between O and A:
If it is going to bother people, I can tone it down. However there are plans...
SpoilerSo 1) it's canon that the Ne are polyamorous. But 2) G4 DOES have a crush on Ata. And I was hoping to play that up because in a few chapters she ends up in the mirror universe and she's married to Ata there, so I figured there should be some setup.
With these in mind, still tone down?8 hours ago, Mandamon said:I feel like O's backstory needs a little more oompf.
This is my fault. I added what you're asking for into the previous chapter and then didn't include the little niblets so you could all get up to speed. I edited the flashback chapter to really hit O's dreams being the one to find Ar and then get off Ne to prove herself. So she was going to ditch the Guard first chance she got and take any old job on And just to be someone.
My goal is to run O and A fairly parallel in terms of end goals, but with very different desires to get there. A wants to change Ne by proving Ar exists and it's all just science. O wants to find Ar to get notoriety and do something amazing with her life. At wants what is best for her people, O wants what is best for her. O then has to change that mission after she fails to keep A from being exiled, and wants to make up that failure by rescue.
Any tips on how better to bring this dynamic out would be much appreciated. This is the added paragraph I've put in to try to just very blatantly draw the parallel
SpoilerExi had failed to swallow Ardu-as-religion and had lost her planet. She’d wanted to find Ardu for her people, to bring them out of technological stagnation, and they’d tried to kill her for it. All Ort had wanted was to leave her pastoral heritage, maybe get some Aran validation that she was more than a just pilot and titha herder. And maybe she could still do that, but she had to find evidence to vindicate Exe. Not because that was what a hero would do, but because Exe was her friend, and no one else seemed to want to stick their neck out to save their fellow Guard.
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I'd like a spot for Monday, pending space
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Overall
The prose is solid and I had no issues reading. I think there are some large logic flaws, some of which I've noted below. Mostly I just don't believe this interaction. I am a professor. In the sciences. If someone came into my office and started with this, even if I was a magic person in hiding, I'd tell them to get out and when they didn't, I'd call campus security, then yell until a bunch of people came into the hallway and made the person so uncomfortable they left. Especially if they were threatening my family or treating me less than human. Professors go through a lot to get those PhDs and we know how to handle BS. Even if our lady here isn't really a prof, she's around enough of them to know how they act.
The chapter is fairly short, so I think you could spend a few more words giving us meat. What, specifically, is the guy looking for? What kind of magic? What background does the woman have? Right now I just hate the man and think the woman is a very confusing professorial caricature. I think the bones of this are great, it just needs some reorganization, a bit more meat, and for the woman to be a bit more realistic.
Nice job on a first sub!
Your questions
1. General reactions (were you engaged?)More or less. But the prof really threw me out of the narrative2. Is it clear what A thinks B is? Do you think this should be clearer? Less clear to preserve the mystery?I have no idea and that bothers me. I'm not sure I'd keep reading if I picked this up in a store3. If these characters show up partway through the book and Archer starts causing problems after what's been mostly romance, do you think this prologue is necessary to prepare you for it or for it to not be jarring? (I understand if it's hard to tell at this point)If this is a prologue, I think it definitely needs more meat and potentially a resolution of some form. Other than that, I don't think I can answer this question. I think I'd rather see A as random background noise throughout the book and then have him start making trouble.4. Is the "kill your queers" a problem here?It doesn't count if the queer is dead when the narrative starts. Signed, A QueerI'd caution though, if the prof is trans, then you might want to tone down the language at the start with the primate comparison. It's too easy to mistake the MC for being upset over trans, versus magic5. Would you be interested in reading more of this? I know all genres are welcome but I also don't know if straight teen romance is super appealing for this group.We do romance! BRING IT ON.I think the prologue isn't going to work mostly because of the age of the characters. If this is YA, it needs to have its protags front and center. Teens may drop the book otherwise.As I go
- good opening line, though I think rearranging the clauses might make it a touch less awkward to read
- after paragraph 1, I do not like M.A.
- if 'professor' is part of a formal address, it gets capitalized
- pg 2: as a scientist who does genetics work, 'plants' is an entire kingdom. A professor is highly specialized, so likely she would do genetics work on maybe, at the widest, a phylum. Likely just a few genera. So I'd have her response be much more specific, like 'unless you want to do genetics on bracken fern varietals...'
- pg 2: And I’m sure you’re busy as well with all the profiting off the opioid epidemic you’ve been doin <- maid and butler here. But I think if you reworded it, it wouldn't be. Could be as easy as cuttingthe 'you've been doing'
- pg 3: the taunts here are the same as we've already had. He already implied he had the son's genetic info. No need to repeat
- pg 4: I am incapable of healing people through supernatural means.” <- I'm at a logic stop. If she wouldn't use her magic to save her wife, why would she do so, under duress, for her son? Like why does this guy think he can strong arm her into it, when clearly the death of her wife would have tempted her much, much more? I feel like he needs some other thing to hold over her. Like 'I'll give the disease to you and everyone you love and then you will HAVE to use magic or watch the world burn,' etc
- pg 5: If she really didn't have magic and was just a regular human she'd have called security the second he accused her of magic. I think he needs to have this thought, that he is clearly on to something because she isn't just demanding he leave her office because he's spouting nonsense
- I'm mostly confused by the ending
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Overall
Unfortunately this chapter has all the same issues as before. It does not have a defined arc and does not seem to progress the narrative at all. Our MC exists and the narrative attempts move around him. He is unfazed by a minor thing and so we also do not care about it. The most emotion comes at the start with the jewelry gift, and that is really the meat of the chapter. I'd say you could cut this whole chapter out, and stick the beat with the jewelry somewhere else. But this chapter does not give the reader anything to grab onto, nor does it have an arc or plot progression.
Again, the writing is just fine. It's never an issue to read the sentences. I just need the narrative to move and engage, and it continually tries to feed me information I don't want and get me to care about things that the MCs themselves can't be bothered to care about.
As I go
- I was more or less on board until page 3. The hook of the jewelry spellstones is nice and makes me think she will still get one with magic in it and it will end badly. So hook. But then they go walking and I clock out
- pg 4: I don't care how he slept. I'm trying to sort out what the chapter arc is
- I think pg 5 is unnecessary and you could cut the whole thing. Potentially also page four. Walking and talking does not keep my attention. Also still trying to look for the arc of the chapter
- pg 6: He would miss his desk, <-- here is where I start to check back in
- pg 7: by reconnecting with the Baron <-- aaaand back out. Too many names I don't care about
- pg 9: Why would anyone waste time on such a mild inconvenience?” <-- this pretty much sums up the issue. Its a mild inconvenience, so it can't carry the plot. It's so mild it does not grip the reader. The MC does not care, so I do not care.
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Overall
I think there are two issues at play.
A) lack of GREATER stakes
B.) arc not established at the start
So for the first, I need more about why she races. Fame? Fortune? Love of flying? What happens if she doesn't win this race? What are the actual stakes? There are minor stakes (like if she gets injured she can't fly) but what does flying MEAN to her? EMOTIONSSSSS
For the second, it looks like you're trying to set up a shift for our lead from MUST WIN RACES to FRIENDS ARE IMPORTANT. The issue is that I don't see the start of the arc in the beginning of the story. I'd like more maybe of her dismissing her friend because MUST WIN or something, to make the end of the arc work.
It's well written! And nice to step away from your other work. And I can see the end of the arc, just not the start, and I think you need to up your stakes.
For titles....urgh.
SHAMBLES OF STARLIGHT
RACE IN PROGRESS
not very helpful. I'll keep thinking on it. Nice work!
As I go
- it isn't the most engaging start. I think it could be tweaked to be more dynamic, since it's the start of a race
- pg 1: Small sponsors decorated her sleek sides, but one day Z would see household names there. <-- had to read this several times to figure out what she was talking about
- pg 1: was their last planet <-- I think mentioning its a planet spaceship race would be best in the first few sentences. It's a good hook
- pg 1: above average height could mean anything
- I think the whole first beat here (pg1) could likely be cut and the important parts reintegrated later
- ah yes. The first paragraph of the second page is MUCH more dynamic. Start here, please
- pg 5: I've started wondering about greater stakes. Why is she racing? What happens if she looses? I know if she gets injured she might not be able to fly again, but is that all we are working with here? I'd like (and I'm searching for) something beefier
- pg 7: yes, I need greater stake development. She wants more sponsors because... MOAR MONEY, or family security, or she has to save Mars. Whatever. Without a real grip on those stakes I have no urgency. Win? Lose? Meh. Don't much care. She seems fine either way. What are the BIG TERM CONSEQUENCES of losing, other than her copilot losing his stomach?
- crying on the end of page 9 but WHYYYYYYY
- pg 12: they just...got rescued? I am let down
- does not appear to have an arc that was set up at the start
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Overall
I think my main issue is lack of investment and engagement. S doesn't emote, and therefore I don't care about them and their struggles (though as of yet they do not have any other than being obstinate and not wanting to do something they're being told to do. This is how my six year old acts). It's fine to have a slower paced inciting incident like this, but if you aren't going to carry investment on DANGER! ACTION! MORTAL PERIL! then we need emotional investment and an emotional arc. We mostly just have talking here, and the smallest hint of an arc at the end.
I need S to react and emote more. I want to experience the world through their emotions and reactions. I want to care the way they care. If they do not care, then I can't, either.
As I go
- I find that first chapter not as dynamic as the second one (where the invitation is in the pocket). I know you don't want to mess with what your editor liked, but I think it would be a much stronger start to begin with 'The invitation had not been in their pocket when they..."
- pg 1: and dropped the card on the river bank, almost certain it would find its way back into their pocket and stood This could be a lot more direct and dynamic. Have them drop the card on the river bank, reach their hand into their pocket, and find it back there.
- end of page 2 and into pg 3--info dump. Suggest removing or better integrating. I'd also much rather SEE S use those powers than be told what they are
- pg 4: Around here, I find myself bored and wandering. The elemental powers are an okay hook but I don't really know anything about S. The boy they hugged has emoted more and I'm more interested in him at the moment. I know about the world but I don't care about the world because I really have no feeling for S's goals or the direction of the narrative, other than that S is being made to do something they don't want to. But since I don't have a foothold in the world and stakes yet, being made to do it doesn't hook me
- pg 7: the way the wind spirit 'talks' seems comic book tropey-silly and takes me out of the narrative
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Spoiler100% read 'Atalantik' as "Atalant'
- pg 8: why does S want to rescue Ambo F? I had to go back and reread and it still seems like a slim thing to hang an opening chapter on. They need to meet...because they're suppose to have a meeting. Ambo is late. S goes looking. No real stakes here. I feel no danger. I don't think Ambo is in any trouble, or that going onto the water puts S in any trouble. I also still don't know why S doesn't want to do THE THING other than just not wanting to do what they are told. I am not invested.
- I am getting kind of reading tired of 'unnatural women' in fantasy and sci fi. I just really want to move beyond it. This is of course, a personal issue, and likely because of the book I'm currently reading which REALLY leans in to it
- pg 10: In old books, they’d read about all kinds of horrible things people used to do, from murder to hating people based on who they loved or how they looked. <-- I know this is often done in MG, but it also bugs me. I read for escapism and when things like this are discussed it muddles the real world into my escapism, and ruins my engagement with the narrative
- pg 10: the killer was fertilizer for an apple tree. <-- and then @Mandamon wrote an epic fantasy about it
- pg 10: We didn’t even need the rope <-- no danger. No tension.
- pg 12: But the thought of travel didn’t excite Se like it would’ve days or even hours ago <-- it doesn't excite me at all, because my excitement would be built on S's excitement, and they don't have any
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I just realized its a bit over, but last week's was way under so hopefully you'll all forgive me.
The flashback to little At and young Ori is now officially chapter 2. Chapter 3 (Ori finds Pruitcu) is now chapter 3 (this chapter). It has been edited per the last round of feedback, and the Keft player is now a different character. Same basic idea as before, but I’m hoping the execution is smoother and you are all more invested in Ori, and that I have appropriately differentiated her from Ata.
Also note that in the previous chapter I really hit the ‘Ori wants to be in the Guard because she wants to be a HERO, not because she necessarily enjoys flying. She wants the glory of finding Ard, then wants to leave the Guard and go work on Ard and do something really big with her life. So that line should carry into this chapter pretty well, I hope.
In the document attached, you’ll also find epigraphs. I’ve finally started writing them for the book, so I’ve shoved the three that have come before at the very start of the sub. You’re welcome to crit them or not as you like, but the backstory they give will probably help in interpreting the events.
Thanks all!
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Also up for next week if there's space
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Welcome to RE and congratulations on your first sub!
Overall
Hm. I'm not sure whether you are trying to write a silly trope book here, or actually want to write a gothic horror. If it's serious, then it needs work. The villain and the tutor sound like comic book characters and the plot is convenient and bland. If it's meant to be a parody or trope book, it's on a good path, but needs a lot of tightening and more showing (less telling).
Either way, it's brave to start subbing! Good on you.
As I go
- oooh. Chilling start. Gothic?
- that first line is adjective heavy. I'd cut a few
- the father has very stilted language that makes it hard to take him seriously
- why does the daughter not have a name?
- also the father just sounds like a comic book villain
- pg 6: the sweetly feminine and demure daughter, <-- ah she does have a name. Probably should give it on page one when she is introduced. Also...is this book very tropey? Is that why she's being described like she's going to fail the Sexy Lamp Test?
- pg 2: if there aren't vampires here I'm going to be very disappointed
- pg 3: at this stage I'd really like to know why they agreed to this dinner. Just a line or something about how if you turn down an invitation you become dinner or whatever would work fine.
- pg 3: come alone, but the Count made a special request for the entire immediate family to join them.<-- ah, we get it here, but too late. This should be page one. But also that paragraph is very much a dump. I'd rather get a lot of that from character interactions and movements. I feel like we are being told a ton of things, especially atmospheric things, that could be much better conveyed through description
- pg 4: I'm still really baffled why the family would come to a demon's place for dinner. He's a cartoon villain. Surely they can tell this??
- pg 4: privy dungeon. Of course. Though again, why would they visit if they know this was a thing?? My ability to suspend disbelief is waning. Though if you want to sell me this as a fun trope book, I'd be okay with it. It's over the top otherwise
- pg 6: "There's nothing to fear. I clearly brought you here to die, like Hansel and Grettle."
- pg 6: moved to his parents bed <-- blocking issues. I'm so confused. He's just with his dad and sister, right? Where is this other parent? I have not heard from another parent nor had one named. And were they all in the same room??
- pg 7: In the cell was his family. His parents hung from shackles <- wait, what? So he noticed sister was gone, but not the unnamed parent and the dad? And this is....I mean this is very cartoon. OF COURSE they all got kidnapped. What did they think would happen with a dude like that in a castle?
- and A can't even hide properly. This family deserves to die
- pg 7: he is a demon wearing a human disguise <-- the audience has known this from the first page
- pg 7: the wife appears but does not have a name. Soon to be a fridged lampshade?
- pg 8: little late to be introducing a tutor. Very author hand plot convenient
- Mr. G. also speaks like a cartoon
- pg 9: sources that young virgin girls are being rounded up and sent in hidden caravans from the kingdom <-- did this story have a tag for implied rape? Also gross and unnecessary trope. Sexy lampshade indeed
- wait what? A breakout? No need to rescue the family? WHAT IF THE MOTHER HAS A NAME???
- if the tutor knew how to break out, why did he wait 2 weeks to do it?
- pg 11: the brother has like 0 concern or angst that he is leaving his family to be eaten and sold
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On 2/15/2021 at 6:12 AM, Robinski said:
Nice work
Thank you! All typos noted and fixed. I'm really surprised this chapter worked so well for people, and I have moved it to Chapter 2. It now precedes meeting G4 as an adult as she exits to find the blow up planet. Thank you!
On 2/15/2021 at 10:29 AM, Mandamon said:Are you planning to have multiple flashbacks throughout the book? Because just having two might seem weird.
I.... do not yet know. I think these two are enough to get people into the world, but that also may remain to be seen. I have to get the epigraphs going though, soon.
On 2/15/2021 at 10:29 AM, Mandamon said:So the old G4 disappeared AND they added a ship? So they needed two new volunteers?
Have clarified. yes, they added two. G4 was better so she got the lower number and the new ship
On 2/15/2021 at 10:29 AM, Mandamon said:Interesting that G4 also dreams about Ard. Do other N's also do this?
Yes, but only one has the dreams talk to her...
On 2/15/2021 at 10:29 AM, Mandamon said:--huh...so can she hear the trees too?
I'm pretty sure all the Ne got upset in book 3 when the forests were burning because they could hear the tree screams. I think this is canon?
On 2/15/2021 at 10:29 AM, Mandamon said:This is a big speech from kid At. Would this be more comparable to 17-18 for a human?
It's so interesting that everyone commented on this as being too old. My six year old asks me this constantly. "Do you remember being six? Did you do this? What did you watch when you were six? What about when you were seven? When you were my age did you also like My Little Pony?" So to me, it sounds almost too young. I've tweaked the wording to be a bit simpler, anyway
Thank you! Edits done, and happy to move on!
18 hours ago, Ace of Hearts said:Only figured out at the end of pg 1 that it was a comment about trainees in general
I'll just delete it. It tripped up a few people
18 hours ago, Ace of Hearts said:Also seems like the heroism of discovering the planet is what she's focusing on here so that's what I want to see more of in her internality
I've brought this out more to better differentiate her from Ata. Ata went into the stars because she got kicked off her homeworld for refusing the religion. G4 wants to be a space hero. Have also added that she doesn't really want the settee, it's more about leaving the agrarian life. I want her to look like she really thinks she is on the traditional hero journey.
I've been trying to move away from internal writing in general, as it can slow pacing and limit places in certain narratives. Also I tend to write very internal characters, so I thought I'd give something new a try. Unsure if it will work but I guess we will find out!
Spoiler“I hope a titha gores your ship,” 4 muttered. “Not that anyone would notice the damage. Maybe it’ll deflate your ego. It’s as big as your hair.” She popped the hatch on her settee and took one last, long look at trillium. “When I find Ard” she whispered into the wind, “when it comes back into orbit, when we can see its blue tails burning our atmosphere, 7 can have this settee. I’m going right to the planet, to their primary shipyard and I’ll apply for a job there. No more formation flying, no more herds of pack animals, no more bossy shepherds. I’ll learn right from the Ards. I’ll learn how to build ships and how to fly in space. I’ll take a tour of the E Palace. I’ll memorize the legendary tapestries and eat traditionally prepared andal and I will be a hero!”
18 hours ago, Ace of Hearts said:Feels too self-aware even for this very observant kid. Not that a kid wouldn't have that vocabulary, but I don't think kids spend a lot of time thinking what older people were like as kids. I'd expect something more like "You're barely older than I am. If you can do it, I can do it."
It's so weird, because nearly everyone commented on it, but my kid is six and talks like this. So do her friends. Maybe generational shift?
18 hours ago, Ace of Hearts said:I don't quite follow why G4 is convinced that A is going to be the one to find Ard. Also, is the idea that they're eventually going to pass orbit with the planet and be able to see it by just flying on the planet?
Errr, okay. I'll see how I can slip in just a touch more backstory.
19 hours ago, Ace of Hearts said:I'd think we'd be following A and not G4 in the future, since G4 seems to be setting up A's character more than doing anything for herself.
Argh! Yeah I have to really focus on this in the book. The original 4 books were mostly At, and it's hard to switch gears. Especially since At and G4s lives and journeys have run parallel at times. It's my hope that clearing up G4's motivation will make it more clear that she's doing this because she wants to be a hero. So then when we see her in the next chapter out in a debris field, looking for exiled At, it's very At screwed up and G4 is on a hero journey. Here's hoping!
Thank you! Excellent edits
18 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:So one little interaction lays the foundation for understanding the motives, but I'm not sure it's enough by itself.
If you scroll up there's a rewritten scene I've put behind a spoiler window. I'm hoping that edit, along with a few others, will clarify the differential motivations between At and G4
Thank you! Glad it worked so well!
38 minutes ago, karamel said:i thought you got a new ship?” is this something At would know?
Does the reference to her being the neice of the high priest not connect to that? Hmm. Will poke.
(many of the typos you references earlier others caught and have been edited)
39 minutes ago, karamel said:I thought it was a good length! Depending on what you plan to do with this chapter, you could probably make it shorter. But I thought it was good as is. I liked seeing another guard (G7). And having G7 yell at G4 added tension to the chapter so i dont think there’s a whole lot i would cut out.
Awesome. It looks like the consensus is it should be before the other chapter, and the length is suitable. Thank you very much!!
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28 minutes ago, C_Vallion said:
I think if we jump straight to the inciting incident, it will make it all the more confusing.
Most readers don't mind a bit of confusion. We know to read on if we want information. Without the inciting incident, however, we just put the book down.
29 minutes ago, C_Vallion said:I understand not being excited about reading a third version of chapter 1, and understanding the skimming approach, but it does make it hard to know what things are there, but seem like you might have skimmed over them (who Est- and Lord H are. What's allowed by the magic laws), and what things are actually missing.
Ah, but it is the author's job to engage us enough to read the material. it's less about third time around, and more about still not being grabbed. If a reader admits to skimming, that is likely entirely about there not being any buy in to read closely. We have to want the small details in order to read them, which is why books in SFF routinely start off with a big inciting incident, to draw the reader in. Once we are invested in the world and characters, then you can give us the tiny details.
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Thought I'd check it out again to see if you did edits post page 5
Overall
So I know how far you have come and how much you have cut. Major applause. It's not easy (as @Snakenaps can agree). However, I think you're still holding too tightly to these political info dumps. We just don't need this information. You need to withhold that information until the reader is thinking about it, asking about it, demanding it. Trust us to intuit, and give us characters and motivation (we still have no greater motivation for I or for the plot) and let us get invested, then integrate those plot details. Don't tell us them, let us see them in the way the characters work with each other.
It's a process, and you're making great steps. Writing is tedious and just irritating sometimes, but you will get there!
As I go
- first two pages can still use a touch of tightening but at least I has agency. I appreciate that
- pg 3: still a lot of extra words. You often show, then tell, then show again, when just a show would be enough. As you cut down and work on brevity, I think the next stage will be getting the point across with as few words as possible
- first paragraph of page 4: I think you missed the opportunity here to really engage us with father/daughter banter. He could at least rib her about it a little. Or share a laugh as he recounts being equally silly in his youth, or whisper conspiratorially that he also thinks needing to get them charged by a mage is over the top
- pg 4: He set the book on the desk, pausing to tap his fingers idly on the cover before stooping to pick up the last one. “Duke A arrived last night,” he said casually. <-- okay I LOVE this, but it is too subtle. You need I to react to it internally so the reader knows to pause and make note. Even just a 'oh shite, that was not a book she was supposed to be reading .... or whatever
- pg 6: you're losing me again. Too many names and places I don't care about. I want to be grounded in the king and princess right now. I want to see them engage over the books and the spellstone. That was our incident, so it needs to have that weight. And if it isn't the incident, then it should be removed. As @Robinski noted, I don't think this is actually where the story starts. It's a much better start than before! I has agency, the father has a lot of dad potential. But if they go right from changing spells tones (which is illegal I guess) to talking politics, then the spellstone isn't important and so it isn't where our story begins.
Now, if she dropped it and it broke and let loose a massive fire, that would be an inciting incident!
- pg 7 has tons of info dump we don't need
- pg 8: I should have guessed that anything useful would have been in the other one.” He gave her a wry smile <-- okay so A) I think just cut the maid. She serves no purpose and detracts from any movement and momentum. B.) here is the back part of our incident. You can safely cut everything between pgs 2-8, and pick up here. Have the king talk about how he needs a few basic spells, does she know any, wink wink nudge nudge, they talk about the 'illegal' books. Everything between the inciting incident and this line is not needed
- pg 10: argh, but it doesn't go anywhere. Just more talking about a world we are not yet invested in
- pg 12:, so after the line on page 8 you can have them do like, three dialogue banters. Have her offer to help. Have him say no, pat her head, and leave. Cut then to ch 12, she relights the Firestone on her own and then thinks something like I don't need books to do this. or akin. Show us her agency and that she is already moving towards the forbidden mage hood. Like her father thinks its a cute hobby but she is serious
- pg 14: have her light it fast and confidently, and cut these last two pages. There's no reason to hang onto them, they just kill the middling tension
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I'm thinking this will actually need to be chapter 2 (so come before the one you read last week). It's another 'in the past' vignette, much like the intro. Unlike the intro it is a clear character-building piece, not a mini adventure. In additional to the usual comments, I'd like to know:
A) do you think it is necessary (there was a lot of 'why is G4 doing this I don't understand the connection, and I think this helps??)
B.) should it come before or after last week's sub
C) does it need shortened or lengthened? Make it snappier, or make it more intricate with maybe a real plot?
Regardless, note that next week I'll be resubbing an edited Chapter 2 (or whatever we call last week's sub) as it has undergone substantial changes.0 -
On 2/10/2021 at 9:57 AM, Robinski said:
More to the point, however, her reaction makes no sense to me. Why isn't she worried about unexplained cellulose degradation?
I've changed around some of the events in this now, and made it more clear that she ignores it because it took her forever to get there, and she wants to get at least something accomplished before landing for repairs
On 2/10/2021 at 9:57 AM, Robinski said:I thought that all juvenile Ne were called Ne. Ne was always referred to as Ne in the previous books, wasn't she? I'm sure that she gave up her childhood name at some point.
Ah, no. It was a major plot point through the series that she slowly took back her child name. It's supposed to work now (for old readers) as a foil for O, who is using her own child name to refer to herself from the start.
On 2/10/2021 at 9:57 AM, Robinski said:So wait, O is in love with Ne/At? How did that happen? Wasn't Ne a child when she first met O? So, presumably O did not fall in love with her then. When did O ever see Ne other than that? Shouting and waving across the gap between to the two ships in the prologue? Something about this feels wrong. I can't understand how O formed an attachment to Ne.
No, it's supposed to be a mentor/mentee thing. I'm thinking I may need to swap chapter order with the next chapter coming before this one. I've also clarified this scene to make their connection clearer
On 2/10/2021 at 9:57 AM, Robinski said:It's increasingly frustrating not to know this.
Hrm. I'm going to sub a few more chapters through I think before coming back to this. Making a note. I was going to have the Yor/Nick ensemble get more engaged with it in...two chapters? Maybe it needs to be brought forward though.
On 2/10/2021 at 9:57 AM, Robinski said:her logic here is not good. She can got with the FkArd and have no less than should would have had if the FkArd had not conveniently appeared.
1) I love the abbreviation
2) I have reworked this whole section and think I'll just resub because the motivation (and changing our K pilot for the eventual love interest) is substantial
On 2/10/2021 at 9:57 AM, Robinski said:Wait, what? So, she (and every other Ne) knows that Ke is a thing, and she knew that Pru was a thing before the planet exploded. But, was it not the case that At (was it At that receive the transmission about the explosion? I forget) already knew that Pru was a planet? No, wait, it's more confusing. Pru exploded in the present, didn't it, the present when At is an Ard? So why is O still searching for proof to bring Ne back, when Ne is already back? I'm so confused. Some of this will be me, but there has been so much hopping around in time and POV recently that I've completely the place.
Argh, Okay. I'll try to clear this up. It was supposed to be implied, via timelines, that G4 left Ne before At's return. So she missed the whole four books before and is still working off the assumption that Ne is exiled and needs rescued. It was Sal who got the transmission about Ard though.
On 2/10/2021 at 9:57 AM, Robinski said:I don't understand the message. She accepted it, but it sounds like conversation between two other parties that she is not supposed to overhear. I'm really confused now.
Cleaning
On 2/10/2021 at 9:57 AM, Robinski said:it's like great big hand of author intervention to make the plot work. Quit annoying. I think I would have handled it better if O had retained agency through the search. What if the FkArd was win trouble. O spends long hours failing to find the evidence she wants, is getting mad a frustrated, when she happens across a damaged ship and low and behold, here is exactly what she's looking for. She retains agency and doesn't seem weak and kind of clueless for not understanding what\ wrong with her ship. Just a notion.
The issue is more that I wanted it to have the flavor of divine intervention. Maybe I need to find a halfway between divine and agency.
Thank you for these! Even the little edits were great. Hoping the next time round this is much tighter.
1 hour ago, Sarah B said:I felt pretty lost through parts of this chapter.
A universal issue! Much editing has happened and I'll be resubbing in two weeks. Thank you for reading though, and let's hope the next version is tighter!
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1 hour ago, Sarah B said:
As an outsider to the series, it seems like this protagonist and Ne have similar goals and situations, to rejoin and live with their own species. It might be my memory, but do they both have hairy male captains as well?
LOL, the 'hairy male captain' was the same from the intro. The reader is left to wonder what happened to Ne, and why Sal is now on the ship. But the captain is the same.
Glad this chapter worked well and thank you for reading!
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I'd like a slot for next Monday, pending space.
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On 2/8/2021 at 10:50 AM, C_Vallion said:
Do you have any sort of ship descriptions/sketches somewhere so that I can try to replace the current image in my head with what it should actually look like? [edit: the description later is helpful]
I have an enamel pin, but its highly stylized. The ships are described as being teardrop shaped, capable of seating one comfortably, two cramped. They're generally painted crimson and have a wide, transparent front and top because the Ne aren't particularly technologically advanced and it amused me to think of ground ships having windshields
On 2/8/2021 at 10:50 AM, C_Vallion said:Debris floated…bipedal.” I think even knowing what a good deal of the debris is made up of, the second sentence’s implied “Some [of the debris] were…” is jarring. Seems like the sort of thing that could be intentionally jarring, to imply a disconnect between the "debris" and the people the debris once was. But my first instinct is to see it as grammar being off.
I've reworked this whole area. It was....not well written
On 2/8/2021 at 10:50 AM, C_Vallion said:Why is she suddenly turning to look at the picture?
Because of poor transitions! I've reworked this area, too. Now she has to wait to get to the planet for repairs and decides to relax, so her eyes wander
On 2/8/2021 at 10:50 AM, C_Vallion said:Wasn’t she going to go do repairs and come back anyway? Why not just get towed out and come back later? Her goal of gathering biological materials seems to have a solution in going with him. She mentions needing “proof,” but I have no idea what that means, when it seemed like her plan was to gather up the samples and find her proof in them later after they’d been analyzed. I didn’t get the idea that she was looking for any other proof that would be more important than living to search another day.
Logic was all wrong. I've reworked the whole scene, which is too long to copypasta here. However for future reference, she now realizes she needs to land almost at the start due to lost cellulose. The K ship comes and offers her a tow and they get the whole rigging set up when the other ships appear. She accidentally detaches the tow line and is left behind.
On 2/8/2021 at 10:50 AM, C_Vallion said:My bigger concern is usually more related to making sure that the jumping-back-in points are smooth. If, for an entirely random example, a chapter ends on someone about to be blasted out of space, I’m more concerned about where we’re going to pick up that viewpoint again to make sure that I’m able to follow any time/place jumps if there were PoV jumps in-between.
Yuuuup this is my concern, too. Next chapter is also Or, so we will see how that goes. In fact the next chapter may need to come before this one, so I'll be curious to see what people think about it, too. Thanks for these! It helped clean up a lot, especially in terms of motivations and plot.
On 2/8/2021 at 0:01 PM, Mandamon said:name first appears in italics
have edited.
On 2/8/2021 at 0:01 PM, Mandamon said:lso agree with this. Or. has a drive to find...something...DNA evidence, I guess, and literally has all the answers appear and helpfully try to talk to her, but she ignores that and lets him fly off when she's faced with incoming hostiles and a broken ship. Why not follow the K, and come back later? She was planning to do that anyway to repair at the planet.
This was allll very choppy. I got a little cut happy the night before I think. Post edits, she now realizes she needs to land pretty much from the start for repairs. The K offers help and she accepts, but the tow line breaks as they get ready to jump and she is left behind for the pirates. Also clarified her motivations more fully so she isn't a Nee copy.
On 2/8/2021 at 0:01 PM, Mandamon said:--would she have had another name between the two?
I redid this whole section, too.
On 2/8/2021 at 0:01 PM, Mandamon said:I'm not sure why Or isn't just going with K. Isn't he the same species as the bodies outside? I don't understand why she isn't just asking questions. What's keeping her back?
No more questions! Their dialogue is much less now, and hurried. It's more about degrading ships and getting out before the pirates, though K gets a bit of the critical stuff through before the jump
On 2/8/2021 at 0:01 PM, Mandamon said:Wait now, the N holy text has had the name of all the other similar species all this time? That seems like it would have been followed up on before now...
I did not present this well. There's a section like this in....the second book I think, but here I skimmed the explanation. I'll edit.
On 2/8/2021 at 0:01 PM, Mandamon said:Are the death ships sending this message? Did they just blow up the other planets? What's happening?
Whoops. Have clarified
On 2/8/2021 at 0:01 PM, Mandamon said:-yeah, don't understand Or's choices here. She had a lot of easy ways out and didn't take any of them.
Bonus, now she has NO WAYS OUT. I hope. I think.
Thank you for these! Much smoother chapter now.
On 2/8/2021 at 4:35 PM, Ace of Hearts said:Jumping from corpses to "waste of time" makes me see this person as fairly cold and uncaring (about anyone besides herself anyway). It's an interesting response that I'm keeping my eye on, but I'm not 100% sure it's intentional
This whole section got a makeover
SpoilerThe DNA she needed was scattered across lightyears, intermingled with who knew how many other species. Where she’d hoped to find answers, she’d gotten only detached eyeballs and bloated corpses.
What a maddening, depressive waste of a nearly six year journey.
Debris floated past, some bouncing off her hull, some sticking. Some were ship fragments and tortured biometals. Some were clefts of rock and mineral. Most were organic, a few identifiable as body parts. Death surrounded her. Obliteration. She sat at the edges of an intergalactic holocaust that completely screwed all her future plans, including an eventual triumphant return to her homeworld of N-k to validate (not rescue, because the woman in question was not one who needed rescuing) the scientific and political arguments of an ex-Heaven Guard pilot.
What a waste.
Not a failure. She couldn’t handle failure at this junction. Just a waste of half a decade.
On 2/8/2021 at 4:35 PM, Ace of Hearts said:How does this universe handle time dilation? I'm assuming it's addressed in earlier books but I thought about it when light years were mentioned
Poorly. It handles it poorly. I mostly rely on space opera tropes to stay afloat, with the occasional fourth wall 'that isn't how wormholes work why do we call them that' hot take.
On 2/8/2021 at 4:35 PM, Ace of Hearts said:I can tell that she's willing to sacrifice a lot for this DNA which is good but I feel like I need to know at least a little about what she plans to do with it
Expanded that section as well
SpoilerIt was a picture of Exile, right before she’d earned that modifier. Exile, the Heaven Guard trainee, just as she was about to be assigned a permanent ship and fully join the Guard. Exile—the Neek who would never see her homeworld again unless O-t got it together and found just the right collection of DNA to prove A-m did more than bless the N-k people with agriculture.
She touched a fingertip to Exile’s forehead. She’d lead the Heaven Guard long enough to know that mantras were useless and prayers were silly, but every pilot had a shrine somewhere in their settee. Most were to lovers or dead parents, there had to be space for (holy?) missions, too. “If there’s a loophole in the myth of A-, I will find it. If the science you demanded exists, I will find it. Then I will find you and bring you home. We can slap the President of N-k together. Tie him to the bow of a settee and fly him around the Tertiary Forest Preserve a few times. Just for fun. Just to see your smile.”
The image, per usual, did not speak back, nor did it absolve her of the gnawing guilt that came from watching the most promising pilot in a generation, a teenager, be sentenced to death while Or-t watched from the safety of her settee. Absolution for both of them floated in the surrounding debris cloud, and Or-t was not leaving until she found it.
I think that gives her motivation a more personal bend, too.
On 2/8/2021 at 4:35 PM, Ace of Hearts said:Hmm I feel like the other person is trying to convey what their deal is but I don't get it. Are they pushing O to make a decision because it's dangerous with all the rubble around? Because they don't like her? Because they just want to get on with it?
I reworked the whole K interaction. It's now much briefer and conveys far less infodump. It also has O take the K up on the offer to help immediately, but the tow line gets disengaged before the jump, leaving her stranded. I think this will clear up a number of issues
On 2/8/2021 at 4:35 PM, Ace of Hearts said:Unfortunately, I feel like I don't have a great read on her compared to the other two. She seems to have the same motivation as N, but also being alone means we don't get to see her personality come out in interactions as much and her coming after N means that for me she lives in N's shadow.
I'm hoping the edits I've done here have helped pull her away from N. In many ways they will be similar, but if O isn't distinct enough then I need to gut her character and rebuild. Make her better. faster. less snarky
Thank you for these! Very helpful!
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@C_Vallion this is the same version as in the larger document you sent me, correct?
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Final POV for the book. My concerns are that a third POV in as many chapters will have people lost and not invested in the storyline. I’m hoping I’ve tied it all back to Pruitcu enough that there’s a central line, but appreciate all feedback around this and any other issue. ONWARDS!
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On 2/1/2021 at 5:31 AM, Robinski said:
What's this then? If there was no warning from Pru, who published these words?
Ahhh, solid issue. Have clarified it's from Ard's intergalactic sensors because Ard spies on everything
On 2/1/2021 at 5:31 AM, Robinski said:Cell'? I feel like it used to be 'Cel'. I always pronounced it 'kel'.
Errr, possibly? I think it was cell as in 'cellulose', but now I have to go highlight it for continuity edits. Will check!
On 2/1/2021 at 5:31 AM, Robinski said:I really like Y and S together, so it's a little disheartening to see her quite dismissive attitude towards him. One of my imagined promises from the author therefore, is to see her be more loving towards him, provided that he deserves it, of course.
Working towards it! Salice has always been borderline autism-coded so I'm hoping to showcase this relationship well enough that you can see that while she isn't the best at emoting, the emotions are still rich and deep on the inside
On 2/1/2021 at 5:31 AM, Robinski said:EXACTLY. It's not an ominous trope warning. Nooooo
On 2/1/2021 at 5:31 AM, Robinski said:I find the swear rather harsh and inappropriate. He's talking to his lady love here, not Ne
This is a solid point. Have edited
On 2/1/2021 at 5:31 AM, Robinski said:"if I even bring it up" - Please define 'it': unclear.
Oof, correct. I've changed to:
SpoilerAt and E will explode my head if I even bring up Ris, or leaving Ard for…whatever this is. They’re happy there. They’re content. They don’t need this.
On 2/1/2021 at 5:31 AM, Robinski said:I think my issue with him is that he seems only to have one setting. He's kind of always there, but he doesn't seem to develop, grow, get much to do. He's like a piece of noisy furniture to me.
Aww! He grew so much in book three! He had a whole arc! But I'll admit that as a teenager, he's the one I'm least invested in as a character.
So glad this went well! I wasn't expecting such resoundingly positive feedback so I guess it stays mostly intact. Thanks!
On 2/1/2021 at 7:48 AM, C_Vallion said:+1 for ship names.
I think it's my only true writing skill
On 2/1/2021 at 7:48 AM, C_Vallion said:And now that I have spent far more time talking about math-theory than most people are likely to be interested in, I will move on.
LOL it's not something I gave any real thought to other than it needed to be more than two hundred, but less than three hundred
On 2/1/2021 at 7:48 AM, C_Vallion said:This was clarified before too long, but was jarring and a little confusing.
I can just cut the Nick part out. That should simplify it
On 2/1/2021 at 7:48 AM, C_Vallion said:Pi-‘s name seems to switch between nh and hn
ARGHHH you're so right. Making a note to 'search-find-replace' later
On 2/1/2021 at 7:48 AM, C_Vallion said:Beyond that vague feeling of things not seeming to quite match up, I really enjoyed the chapter, and am excited to see where things go
Oh fantastic! Seems like its right about where I need it to be. Thanks for the feedback!
On 2/1/2021 at 9:02 AM, karamel said:would this occurrence normally send a message to the leaders of Ard?
Per @Robinski's comment, I edited to make it clear that Ard has a network of spy satellites basically that feed it constant surveillance info
On 2/1/2021 at 9:02 AM, karamel said:Add-, he’d saved her from” what is add-? A curse word? A deity?
'Addendum' means 'an addition'
On 2/1/2021 at 9:02 AM, karamel said:“Go away” narrator: he did not go away
LOL exactly
On 2/1/2021 at 9:02 AM, karamel said:Slips of foam” you mean… flip flops? Nice
100% correct
On 2/1/2021 at 9:02 AM, karamel said:Idk how much time is in between book 1 and 3, but this chap has to be at least… 14 years after the intro? What's the big picture? I’m interested to find out
Hoorah, and glad it works!! There are about four years between this and the end of book 3, and yes 14 years from our intro incident. I'm glad they connect because with three POVs in short order, I think I'll have a hard time with reader investment soon. Thank you for the feedback!
On 2/1/2021 at 11:44 AM, Mandamon said:Yes, come to the dark side...
Looking forward to more!
I did it in Ard 1, and had agent after agent and editor after editor get on me about it. Ninestar didn't mind as much but even then you should have seen it before my editor got her hands on it. POV EXPLOSION
On 2/1/2021 at 11:44 AM, Mandamon said:assume these were the things in the prologue. Were this in the trilogy at all, or is this a retcon?
Yes, the things from the intro, and what I'm hoping will be a fairly major plot point. They weren't in the original trilogy because I (mercifully) never showed them hauling saplings. They were in-between Ris hauls when book one happened. That's about the only thing giving me any room to write this new trilogy.
Thank you!
On 2/1/2021 at 3:44 PM, Ace of Hearts said:I'm curious why this seems like no big deal to people other than S. Is it a routine occurence to have planets blow up like this?
This is indeed part of the mystery, though the edit I did for Robinski, noting it's being recorded via spy satellite things, should help
On 2/1/2021 at 3:44 PM, Ace of Hearts said:If I'm right props to you for setting up a complicated dynamic like that so quickly
100% correct. Excellent
On 2/1/2021 at 3:44 PM, Ace of Hearts said:Okay, the implications of the statement at the bottom of the page aren't super clear to me. How exactly does P's destruction make these other people from the J system more of a threat? I don't really get it and I think this is important for me to know. I also wouldn't mind a bit of exposition from S about the J system, honestly, so long as it's still character-rooted. I'm guessing she doesn't care about it as much as MP does.
I tried to add to add in a few clarifying sentences, but they made the mission more dangerous than S would take on, so they had to come back out. I think for now P is giving her exactly enough information for her to contemplate an adventure. Anything more and she'd call for people more powerful, and that won't work with how the plot is set up.
Unfortunately S can't exposits about the J system because she doesn't know anything about it, other than what was given at the very start of the chapter.
On 2/1/2021 at 3:44 PM, Ace of Hearts said:How does S feel about this place? The description makes the broader dynamics clear but what I really want to know is what this means for S. Is it a chance for her to reclaim for herself the knowledge that was used to hurt her? Is it a place so terrifying and scarring that she never wants to set foot on it again? I'm guessing somewhere in between.
Hmmm okay. Will revisit. Let's try
SpoilerSal stared at the words, reading and rereading until they blurred. Kon. She remembered pristine breeding labs, cellulose-proof prisons, her mother’s screams, but still, it was home. She could accept the carrot, thereby willingly revisiting (well-dressed) Ris servitude, but gain her heritage and a homeworld in return. She’d be forever tied to Ril but then again, they already had a permanent tether.
On 2/1/2021 at 3:44 PM, Ace of Hearts said:Right now I can see (almost) anyone in her position having her views, and I want to see her personality inform her desires in a way that's unique to her.
This is something I'm flagging for another pass. She's 1/2 of the protagonist team, and I'm hoping more specific wants/needs come into play later. She is purposefully a bit 'emotions acted, not debated' but I'll see how this works moving forward. Glad this worked well, and thank you for the feedback!
On 2/2/2021 at 2:14 PM, Silk said:I do think it’s possible that beefing up S’s longing for a history could make the chapter potentially a little more powerful, especially for new readers who are only getting very glancing bits of S’s history, but I’m not sure how that would translate into a scene where actual consequential things happen, since it really doesn’t seem like this chapter is missing much. As it stands though, I think the why of S is doing this is clear enough, and it's a good punchy start.
This is where I'm stuck as well. The chapter feels complete, and S isn't an interior person by nature. She'll always act and react more than she will internalize and analyze emotion. I'll see how feedback goes for other S chapters and then revisit this. I've flagged it in this chapter for review. I think just tweaking sentences might help, for instance
SpoilerI want more than a history of test tubes and syringes. I want to erase Ris and replace them with cousins, grandparents, and generational traditions. I want to die of old age surrounded by people who look and think and communicate like me.
On 2/2/2021 at 2:14 PM, Silk said:Could be WRS and I’m just forgetting some of her capabilities from previous books but if they’re restricted to that level, why does she have access anyway?
It was in older drafts but got cut. I'm not sure I'll add anything back in. Does it make you wonder if she's good at computers? That was my hope
On 2/2/2021 at 2:14 PM, Silk said:Hadn’t they already made plans to go for dinner a few pages up?
Check. Edited. Thank you for the feedback. Looks like this is a strong chapter
On 2/3/2021 at 5:39 PM, ginger_reckoning said:so, just a question, is this implying that P planet can also move, since it has been in the system for only two hundred something years? Sorry if that's already been established
*cough* no, not at all. Why would P move. That would be weird and not at all concerning....
On 2/3/2021 at 5:39 PM, ginger_reckoning said:Like, dimension-hopping or something??
You're very good at the subtext game
On 2/3/2021 at 5:39 PM, ginger_reckoning said:this is MP" reminds me of when you're working on a google doc at like 12 at night and you can see that there's like two other people also there...
100% what I was channeling
Thanks for the edits! Looks like this draft is working a lot better all around.
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3.1.2021 - C_Vallion - Price of Peace - Chapter 5 or 1 - Price of Peace: Chapter 5 or 1 - (L G V, all mild) - 4694 Words
in Reading Excuses
Posted
I've already seen this chapter, so I'll just echo @Mandamon's comments that this needs A) EMOTIONS and B.) actual motivation for our lead that motivates both her and the reader. What does she want? What is her arc? You explained it in very long chapters to me in an email but I want to know it, intuitively, from reading. I want to get it from her actions and her emotions. I don't want to have to ask, I want to just know.