Jofwu

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Jofwu last won the day on March 5 2018

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    The Cosmere, Wheel of Time, The Expanse, Kerbal Space Program, Mass Effect, Civilization, Zelda, Elder Scrolls, space, physics, math, soccer

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  1. The mass of the thing you Push is irrelevant to how much you are accelerated. If I push a coin with 1 Newton and I have a mass of 1 kilogram, then I will accelerate at 1 m/s^2. If I push a house with 1 Newton and I have a mass of 1 kilogram, then I will accelerate at 1 m/s^2. If my mass doesn't change and I Push with a constant force then the acceleration is constant. You brought up electrostatics and gravity, where a sudden increase in a charge or mass would cause the acceleration of some other thing (with a set charge/mass) to suddenly increase. That happens because the force increases.
  2. It works for the game pretty well, but I think it does break conservation of energy? It wouldn't matter in the game I expect because the ground is fixed, rather than just another mass that can be pushed around. Looking at the FBDs linked, but removing gravity for simplicity. First you just have the Allomantic force, equal and opposite on each thing. In second scenario, the coin is pushed against the ground, so it experiences a reaction equal to the Allomantic force. Net force on the coin is zero. You have this force also transferred to the Allomancer. But where's that force coming from? With the coin, it's coming from the ground. So if we draw an FBD of the ground, you see a normal force from the coin on it. To satisfy Newton's 3rd law, with your idea that force would have to be doubled. Like we've introduced a connection between the Allomancer and the ground now, and he gets to Push on the ground as well as the coin. So if Allomantic force is F, then the coin has net force of F-F=0, Allomancer has F+F=2F, and ground has -F-F=-2F. But if we look at the original case, Allomancer has F and coin has -F. Now (presumably?) you're burning the same amount of metal in each case, but producing different forces. I guess you could wave it away by saying the extra energy comes from Preservation of course. Just doesn't sit right with me though. The whole idea that you have this connection suddenly with which to push on the ground seems like an unnecessary complication without much concrete evidence for the underlying idea? (just, trying to match observations with a fudge factor)
  3. The only way I can make sense of what you're saying is if that's basically the case, though maybe I just don't quite understand you. Let's walk through the algebra to find where the disconnect is. We're in a vacuum and ignoring gravity.The coin has mass M and the Allomancer has mass 100M. The Allomancer chooses to apply a Pusing force F to a coin. Per Newton's 3rd law, both coin and Allomancer experience this force. Per Newton's 2nd law, the coin has acceleration a1 = F/M and the Allomancer has acceleration a2 = F/(100M) = a1/100. They both accelerate at these different rates until the coin strikes a very massive object of mass 1000000000M (that's 9 zeros) such as a wall attached to the ground. The Allomancer is in direct control of the force applies. The magnitude of the force doesn't change. The Allomancer continues to accelerate at a2 = F/(100M) = a1/100. The coin/wall has combined mass 1000000001M. They accelerate at a3 = F/(1000000001M) = a1/1000000001. In the previous reply you equated the mass*acceleration of each object per Newton's 2nd law. So using the same symbols/values that I used above that's: F = (a1)M = (a2)(100M) for the case when the coin is free, and: F = (a3)(100000001M) = (a2)(100M) for the case when the coin becomes anchored. This doesn't give you anything but a ratio of accelerations however. In the first case you get a2/a1 = 1/100. In the second case you get (approximately) a2/a3 = 10000000. Where do you go from here? This is just ratios of acceleration. In the first case the coin is accelerating 100 times faster than the Allomancer. In the second case, the Allomancer is acceleration 10000000 times faster than the coin/wall. I solved the actual values of acceleration above. There's no change to the Allomancer's acceleration in this math. Just in the coin's acceleration. You seem to be saying that the magnitude of the force is "shared" between the coin (or coin/wall) and the Allomancer. In that case you're describing something like: F = (a1)M + (a2)(100M) You're saying the force is fixed and the masses are fixed, so you end up with some kind of ratio on the accelerations. But you're still stuck with just a ratio. It's unclear to me how you determine the value of these accelerations. You could certainly input the Allomancer's acceleration as something very low and you'd get the coin accelerating much faster. And then when the M suddenly becomes 1000000001M and you assume a small acceleration for the coin/wall then the Allomancer's acceleration would be very large. But we're completely making up those accelerations. You need some other relationship defined here if you want to solve for them. In any case, this is a violation of Newton's 3rd law. Forces aren't applied such that they are "shared" like this. In electrostatics or gravitational forces you have some force that's defined (F here). And that same force is applied to each, per F = m1*a1 = m2*a2. You don't get variables amounts of the force going to each of them. They both experience the same force.
  4. Oltux72, you're conflating Pagerunner's "Model 1" and "Model 4". What you're describing here is addressed in Model 4. It's the idea that we're dealing with some "effective mass". For the coin being Pushed in a vacuum you just have the mass of the coin, and when the coin is anchored the "effective mass" is... something much larger. You'll have to see Pagerunner's document concerning his critique of Model 4, as I don't remember what he says on the matter. Speaking for myself... If we run with this and assume that the Allomancer control's the magnitude of the force, then we go back to the problem of having no acceleration discontinuity. It doesn't matter of the mass of the coin suddenly becomes something much larger. The magnitude of the force is fixed, the mass of the Allomancer is fixed, so the magnitude of the acceleration never changes. As for the coin, we simply see the acceleration of the coin decrease inversely with the sudden mass increase. Now, you're describing a case where the force DOES increase (again different from the premise of Model 1). You're relating this sudden force increase to the sudden "effective mass" increase. If we hold the acceleration of the coin constant, the force increases proportional to the effective mass increase. That would cause the acceleration of the Allomancer to increase an INSANE amount if the entire planet is taken as the effective mass, and we very obviously don't see this. In any case, we obviously don't see the acceleration of the coin held constant, so this isn't quite right. The only way for this to make sense is if the acceleration and (effective) mass of the coin BOTH change by some degree. So say effective mass suddenly increases 100-fold and the acceleration of the Allomancer is observed to increase 10-fold. It would mean the acceleration of the coin decreased 10-fold. So we have original F=ma, and after anchoring we have (10F)=(100m)(a/10). You can make the numbers work doing this. But... what determines how much the effective mass and acceleration change by? You could maybe come up with some equation that spits out values for how the force changes Philosophically, this also suggests that the magnitude of your Pushing force is a function of the "effective mass" of the thing you're pushing on. And this seems to be contradicted by several examples in the books. You don't push on some general mass. You push on metal. If you embed a coin inside a rock, the strength of your Pushing force doesn't increase with the mass of the rock. Evidence suggests you should be Pushing the coin with the same force, and it just accelerates slower because of the added dead weight. Does that make sense? Yes, the non-metallic, dead weight DOES play into the thing's acceleration. But to say it plays into the magnitude of the force gets really sticky.
  5. Ah, so something in the general form of y = (1-x)^(1/n). Bigger the n, sharper the hook. So distance would matter relatively little out to some range, and then it would zero out quickly beyond that.
  6. Spoiler tags do that. Fine to use those for something like that.
  7. You can't really look too closely at the whole Push-duel situation. It definitely reveals a little bit about what Brandon is thinking, but the situation is ultimately unrealistic. The situation is unstable, unless you allow for Allomancers to shift their Pushing vector to intentionally keep the coin between them. Otherwise the coin gets Pushed in some direction normal to the Pushes. Great simulation @Artemos! Does it work out roughly the same if you use 1/r^2 or some other formulation with respect to distance? Having trouble thinking that through at the moment. Oltux72, the text states that the Allomancer experiences a discontinuity in the force/acceleration they experience (little to nothing when the coin is free vs. something significant when it becomes anchored). Model 1 does not produce this discontinuity for the Allomancer, which is why it doesn't work. If you draw a free body diagram of an Allomancer pushing with a set force, the behavior of the coin is irrelevant. The horizontal Allomantic force is known and constant, whether the coin is free or anchored. You seem to be suggesting that the normal force on the coin (when it suddenly becomes anchored) is "transferred" to the Allomancer. This would explain the discontinuity if the model worked this way. But this isn't how model 1 is described. The problem with this interpretation is that, if you look at the forces on the coin-Allomancer system, there is an unbalanced force. It breaks Newton's 3rd law. Pagerunner effectively addressed this in Model 4 and dismissed it. This is one of the solutions Artemos has used in his game, so he might be able to speak more on that if he cares to. It's useful and simple for the sake of making a game work, but it breaks a lot of physics and thus isn't a fantastic solution.
  8. For Illumination, good point. My gut feeling is that you're taking "various waveforms" far too literally there. But if you can produce sound, then I suppose you could produce waves in water. I'm not sure how powerful those could be... That'd take an awful lot of energy compared to anything we've seen. I think you're taking the Ars Arcanum descriptions a bit too far. We don't have much evidence for what those actually mean. But perhaps.
  9. Well, Illumination can create anything. I guess, based on what Shallan did at the end of OB, maybe you can give your illusory waves some kind of substance. But I wouldn't consider that any interaction with actual water. Transportation = Elsecalling, which so far as we know is just the ability to enter Shadesmar from wherever. (and maybe teleportation?) Nothing about adding motion to physical things.
  10. Mastery over water? I'm really curious what this is referring to. Stormlight isn't Avatar: The Last Airbender. It's not like there's a Surge giving "mastery" over each element/essence. I expect many Surges can interact with water, just as much as they do with any other substance... It's possible Adhesion works with water. Khriss thinks it's related to "atmospheric pressure", and it's only a small jump from there to manipulation of pressure in fluids in general. (so... when are we going to get a Windrunner to dive into Aimia's underwater caves?) Don't see any reason why Gravitation can't be applied to water, though I can't imagine what the use would be. Division superheats water to steam? Abrasion makes it a better lubricant? Obviously it can be Soulcasted. And we don't know much about Cohesion and Tension, but why not? So it's probably just Progression, Illumination, and Transportation which are irrelevant when it comes to water.
  11. I want Maya to be revived (mostly at least), and would be disappointed if she isn't. I don't feel as strongly about Adolin. I was hesitant for this at the end of Words of Radiance, but I think I'd be okay with it now. Something I've noticed is that lots of main characters are VERY non-traditional Radiants. We've got a lot of oddballs in the mix. Lots of stuff that hasn't been seen before... First is Renarin, bonded to a spren corrupted by Sja-Anat. (maybe it's happened before, but at the very least it isn't normal) We've got Lift with a bizarre condition allowing her to get Investiture from food instead of Stormlight. We've got Dalinar who somehow managed this whole "Unity" thing, which Stormfather has never seen. We've got a few Heralds who seem like they'll be Radiants. Seems like at least one other major oddity that I'm forgetting. This Desolation is weird. So that said, what I'd like to see most of all is something weird between Maya and Adolin. They've certainly begun that way, considering a deadeye has never been revived. (so far as we know at least) Like maybe Maya is mostly revived by has some really unique quirks and/or limitations. Maybe Adolin only gets one Surge. Maybe he gets no Surges but he can hold Stormlight. You know what I mean. Just some kind of weird, broken state that's never been seen before. I will say that I think it would just be weird to have Maya bond with anyone besides Adolin. Narratively, that just feels awkward. I think we place way too much emphasis on the importance of someone "fitting in" to a given Order. There's no rule saying spren can only bond with someone who doesn't "fit" their order. They might face disapproval from other spren. The human might have a more difficult time advancing through the Ideals. There's certainly obstacles in this. But Maya can bond Moash if she feels so inclined. Even if she can be revived without needing a bond (which Adolin is the only one in a position to provide), I just can't see her latching on to anyone else. Particularly just because Adolin isn't some picture-perfect Edgedancer.
  12. Wow, so I guess they killed slatrification. That surprises me. We never see it happen in the first two volumes, but I skimmed over the first one with this in mind and I'm having a hard time seeing how it won't be a clunky change. There are a couple of scenes that will come across really strange in this case. For example, the sandling at the end of the Mastrell's Path. Kenton assumes it is meant to test slatrification ability, and many people have obviously passed the test before him without the skills he used instead. So... how did all the others do it?
  13. Maybe? Renarin's futuresight is weird... It seems highly likely that is voidbinding, or at least related to voidbinding. We don't really have any evidence that "voidfabrials" are a thing? My suspicion is that it's possible... Devices for most magic in the cosmere seems possible. But I'm betting a fabrial to see the future is going to be very difficult to make and very expensive to use? I guess it depends on how "powerful" the fabrial is. To connect things to Mistborn... Looking far into the future, through more complex events, (like we see with Renarin in WoR I think) is probably not cheap or easy in my opinion.
  14. @hoiditthroughthegrapevine I think it's pretty cool. One thing that I realize now I probably wasn't very clear on, and this is a lot of assumption on my part... In the scene at the end of Oathbringer where Odium pulls Taravangian into the virtual Diagram room. We see the Diagram as it was written, then the room drops away, and then we see what Odium sees... My interpretation is that Odium is just extrapolating further. I don't think we're dealing with two separate views of the future. I think they match up, and the Diagram is just very limited compared to what Odium sees. It's like the Diagram is a single sentence written out. Then Odium comes along with a transparent page of golden text and overlays it on that single sentence. They match up perfectly, with Odium's version just revealing more/further. And when I say perfectly I mean almost perfectly. There's this one portion in the middle of the sentence that repeatedly seems wrong in some way, frustrating the people interpreting it. On Odium's overlay, that portion is just a jumble of words overlayed on one another to the point that it's illegible. I think that the reason the Diagram seems wrong is because it is. It predicted one branch which was once very likely, but now there are several possibilities propagating from Renarin (Odium's blindness). And in this particular case, the Diagram guessed the wrong one. Brandon basically confirmed Renarin's interference with Odium. So my theory is basically that if the Diagram is a work predicting the future then Renarin should be affecting it in basically the same way. The difference is that the Diagram is a static creation while Odium is seeing all of the possibilities as they currently exist. (If Odium looked into the future before Renarin bonded Glys, he probably would have seen with clarity what the Diagram predicted.) THAT SAID... I imagine Cultivation is much better at seeing the future than Odium. I figure it's possible that she has an easier time seeing all of the branches created by Renarin. So it's possible that the Diagram isn't wrong because of Renarin, but because Cultivation is manipulating people (maybe even Odium) by presenting a future that she knew would be wrong. Does that make sense? I'm personally skeptical that the Diagram is... coming from Cultivation to this degree. I think it can still be a tool of hers for the purpose of manipulation without needing to take things this far. But who knows... Sorry, I'm rambling. Personally, I think he'd still be greyed out because he's already had some influence that has stirred things up. BUT I DO think that this greyness would fade in time with Renarin dead, as his influences work themselves out and move from there. With Renarin alive, it will continue to grow, I think. Very hard to guess how long Sja-Anat has been leaning that way. Definitely a major question mark. I don't imagine she went to Cultivation. I think she's been more slow, and subtle, and careful. Afraid to move in the open, which I imagine would be required to visit Cultivation. I do expect that Glys was a weapon she planned for this purpose. A way to help out the other side. I don't know that she saw exactly what would happen with Glys... But I think she saw some of it. Less "here, this will cause X, Y, Z to happen and help you guys out" and more "here's a powerful tool, it will probably help"? Talk of Unmade reminds me... I can't remember if it comes up in this topic or not. In the Diagram epigraphs in Words of Radiance, there are three references from the "Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer." Two of them are explicitly about the Unmade, and I think they're suggestive about the relationship between Unmade and future sight. They are described as "a deviation". They have "relevance to precognition". The third epigraph is the traitor one: "One of them is most certainly a traitor to the others." The Diagram predicted Sja-Anat's treachery. So that's a clue perhaps to when that happened? Then again, maybe too ambiguous to be helpful there. Regardless, I think this soft connection between the Unmade and how they might influence the future is interesting, especially given the sequence of events that begin with Sja-Anat creating Glys...
  15. My point is that the Diagram was written before Renarin became what he is. Prior to Glys, Jasnah never would have had any reason to kill him in the first place. That said, I'm not entirely sure it holds up to close scrutiny. It's certainly possible that the Diagram says something that's hard to reconcile with my theory, but I'm not aware of any such thing. Do you know what the Diagram predicts/says about Renarin? Particularly concerning the time after the Battle of Thaylen Field? Nothing comes to mind and the Coppermind page doesn't mention him. I don't mean to say that he's JUST a smokescreen for Dalinar. That's sort of what he is at the moment, as he's just coming into his powers. Definitely don't mean to say that's all he is or all he will be. I think that black infinity that Odium sees is going to grow much larger in the coming books, and play into Renarin's very important 2nd arc role.