Kingsdaughter613

I found a WoB talking about the pronunciations years ago, and just started using them. At this point I don’t even hear it as E-lan-tris in my head anymore, even though I used to call it that. Now it’s always Ee-lane-tris. The only one I still think of with my original pronunciation is Kelsier, which has a lot to do with the difficulty in pronouncing it properly. It a very French sounding name, and I don’t speak French... Amusingly Brandon, by his own admission, mispronounces it too - despite being the one who created the name! The Rosharan ones were easy; I know enough Hebrew that I recognized the linguistic root and always pronounced them correctly. Most people really can’t pronounce Kholin correctly unless they have a background in one of the languages that uses gutturals, much like the word Khazad in Tolkien’s legendarium. So I didn’t just pull Ee-lane-tris out of a hat! That actually is how it is supposed to be pronounced. Every Aon (Ay-Own) has a double vowel. (It’s why it should be obvious that Ati/Ruin and Aon Ati are simply a coincidence; the former is Ah-tee and the latter is Ay-Tie. They only seem the same when written in English; if you heard them they’d be completely different.)

It’s pronounced Ray- Oh - den. Elantris is Ee- lane- tris. Sarene is Sar- Ee-nee. Aonic (Ay-Oh-nick) has a hard double vowel in every word/letter. I suspect that knowing the proper pronunciation is interfering with my reading of the Elantris/gods line pair. Otherwise I like it. (Scadrial is worse. Kell’s name ends with an ‘ay’ sound and Vin is Vah. Since I use those pronunciations in my head, but most people don’t, it causes issues when reading rhyming poems set on Scadrial.)

There is a very old WoB that indicates that you might be able to create a feruchemist. And another that he dodged about the first feruchemist. I think something happened to make the first feruchemists. I think Kell replicated it. Allomancy is natural to all Scadrians. Feruchemy is not confirmed to be the same. There is also this WoB I just discovered (see below). I think the implication is surprisingly clear. Whether or not it’s Kell is another story. (And natural Fullborns are theoretically possible! Fun facts!) I KNEW I had seen proof that the original Feruchemists were created! Found it:

The thirty years is misleading. The average life span was skewed by the numerous deaths in infancy and childbirth. Eliminate everyone who died in the first three years of life and the number goes up by several decades. If you survived childhood, (and weren’t female) you would have a good chance of living to your fifties/sixties or longer. If you were female, you’d also have to survive your childbearing years - that’s why the female life span was lower than the male one for so long. Child birth is dangerous! (Go thank your Mom now.) There are families where nearly all members have lived to be over 100 in excellent health. Scientists have been attempting to do research on these individuals to figure out why this is the case. (It doesn’t seem to have that much to do with lifestyle, interestingly. Many smoked, drank, worked long hours in the sun and didn’t eat the healthiest food.)

Unless he figured out how the first feruchemists were created and replicated the process...

I wouldn’t be surprised if it did work a bit like Matt’s ‘luck.’ It’s worth noting that Matt didn’t always find it lucky! Like the time his attempts to avoid battle somehow lead him to the heart of it - exactly where he needed to be. So a trick shot might work - or you end up accidentally killing your friend who, it turns out, was actually going to sell you out... or it kills the local lord, who was a horrible person, but now you’re wanted for murder and need to run... or you miss, but that turns out to be the best thing to happen... I always liked how Matt’s ‘luck’ wasn’t exactly what one would consider ‘lucky.’

There has been no secondary corroboration. If there is such a word of Brandon I would believe it; he just RAFO’s when he wants us to question; he doesn’t directly lie when he answers questions (he has answered incorrectly, changed his mind later, and given intentionally misleading responsa, but he doesn’t lie). You asked about Kell being responsible for current Southern society; I explained that that is objectively true; confirmation would not alter that. It’s the specificities that we lack information on. Allik was fudging to make himself look better in front of the girl he liked (‘a deckhand was tossed off the Brunstel for poor dancing’... no mention of this being him!) And he’s not a historian. Why should I trust his historical perspective more than Marasi’s?

You apparently missed where I said that Kell is a genocidal psychopath... I would be interested in seeing such a WOB, if it exists. I did misunderstand; I know Kell is responsible for Southern Society, but I think Allik’s accuracy to be equal to Marasi when she talks about Vin. History is subjective; I wouldn’t entirely trust someone who actually lived through the time period! That’s why I want another person to explain the same things and see how it differs. It’s not that I don’t believe Kell is capable of enacting those policies, nor that he wouldn’t. What I’m uncertain of is whether or not he did. And I do find it unlikely that he would insist Allomancers be given new titles every time; not because I think he’s above that, but because he never seemed to care before. For the same reason, I doubt he randomly killed everyone who bothered him; again, it doesn’t match with the behaviors we’ve seen - he’s always had an understandable (if questionable) reason for killing before. I’m certain he did kill some people though, and not all for cause either! Personally, I wouldn’t be surprised if the title thing came from Kell getting fed up at all the Southerners butchering his name; they seem to have a Germanic sounding language, and Kell’s name is very French. THAT is the sort of thing he’d do - and possibly threaten to (mostly jokingly) put a coin through the head of the next person to get it wrong. They took him seriously and, because he’s Kelsier, he never bothers to correct them. (Regarding pronunciation: Kel - see - ay. But it’s probably closer to ‘denier’ in how you string the syllables together, with middle kind of swallowed. It would be very hard for a civilization that has only heard German to pronounce.)

No, it’s obvious that Kell is the cause of the current society in the South. That doesn’t make Allik any more accurate about how those things occurred, than Marasi is about the Ascendant Warrior’s personality. I’d need confirmation that his exact statements are accurate which, considering that he was fudging when asked if the Sovereign was the Lord Ruler, I find unlikely. Brandon LIKES to trick us by having characters give us the wrong info due to some knowledge gap on their part. Unless you are a historian you are probably going to get a lot wrong. Just see how many Americans think the Civil War ended slavery. (It didn’t; that was the 13th amendment.) It’s accurate to say that the Civil War directly lead to the Constitutional amendment that actually ended slavery, but the Civil War itself did not. So the issue is what beliefs already existed, how those were incorporated into the changes Kell made and the knowledge he brought, what changes Kell actually made, and which were a result of his actions but that he was not directly responsible for. That Southern society as it now exists - or the fact that it exists at all - is due to Kelsier’s actions is not really in question. The question is how much of his history does Allik know, or is he simply repeating what ‘everyone knows.’

Oh, I misunderstood. Secondary corroboration, or WoB confirming his knowledge of these things. Considering that even Khriss, who is an actual researcher, can’t be trusted to get it right all the time (though she falls into the ‘assume she’s accurate until new information shows’ category) I’m certainly not going to trust the unsubstantiated opinion of average Joe Allik. It wouldn’t be the first time Brandon has fooled us by allowing characters to give us wrong info. Or for characters to misunderstand or misrepresent what they know. We don’t even get Allik’s viewpoint! So, I’m not willing to assume until I know we aren’t being mislead. That that entire sequence was intended to mislead the characters (not necessarily for the readers; that was the point at which it became obvious who the Sovereign was for me) which makes it even more suspect. Brandon has been very cagey about the Southern culture; I doubt we know as much as we are lead to believe.

Because Allik seems rather confused or vague about some things, and he doesn’t strike me as the greatest history student? He’s also only one person, and the only other member of the Malwish we really speak with acts very differently. Not to mention that he was clearly fudging in some places, agreeing to statements instead of admitting he didn’t know, and wanted to impress Marasi? And he clearly knows next to nothing of the other Peoples. I think Southern beliefs regarding the Sovereign share similarities with our King Arthur mythos; I don’t think Kell’s actions are related at all, anymore than they are related to the Survivorists Christian-like beliefs. If you look at RL, as the beliefs of the culture adapt to new beliefs and knowledge it is filtered through the lens of the old. We need to know what the South believed before Kell showed up to understand how they have come to believe what they do now. Another thing to consider: How often do things get attributed to the wrong people? Or someone important puts a new spin on an old thought and suddenly it’s ‘radical’ and ‘profound’? Allik does not strike me as the sort to check primary sources. He seems more like your average Joe, who knows what ‘everyone knows’ which may or may not actually be accurate. I like mythology. Do you know how many Christian saints used to be pagan deities? St. Nicholas’ attributed stories can be half a dozen different ones. This is how beliefs change. And the ‘wise, foereign leader’ is certainly an archetype. So I’m not ready to jump to ‘Kell did this; Kell said that’ without more than the word of one average Joe. I’m not saying your wrong; I’m saying I need more info. I mean, would you trust Wayne’s knowledge of the Final Empire? What about Wax? Marasi? They’ve all shown significant gaps - even MeLaan, who was actually there! Honestly, I’d trust Steris above all of them - I know she’d do the research first!

You mean ‘we crazy sharders know.’ The average reader has never heard of Bavadin, much less her avatars.

My wish list: Lost Metal Azlatian Nightblood Bastille vs the Evil Librarians Silverlight novella Stormlight 4 (Rhythm of War?) Second Elantris trilogy Starsight (Btw, what really pushed back TLM was Apocalypse Guard not working. That’s why Skyward was written instead.)

And I don’t consider Allik a trustworthy source. Not to mention, we only know a little about the Malwish and even less about the other Peoples. It’s too early, and we know too little, to assume. However, if RL is any guide, old beliefs are subsumed into new ones. So anything Kell told them would be merged with the pre-existing culture and belief system. That’s why I’m wary of saying that he’s directly responsible for anything; he left 200+ years ago, they have 1000 years of beliefs and traditions we know nothing of, and we don’t know anything at all about the other peoples in the south. Determining who is responsible for what is going to take more info. Lost Metal hurry up! (I want it more than Stormlight! More than the Azlatian!) He didn’t have to teach them that he was the most powerful btw; that was kind of obvious. A handful of weak allomancers (if that!) vs a powerful Fullborn? And I'm definitely getting King Arthur vibes. The whole leaving and returning... also the revelation of new beliefs, as Arthur’s story involves the transition from paganism to Christianity in England. Which could give us some hints as well... (Note to self: reread La Morte D’Arthur...)

I disagree. There were metalborn before Kell showed up; they just didn’t understand what caused them. Imagine: warrior experiences a severe, traumatic event, and returns home with inexplicable abilities. Obviously he must be a minor deity, or the child of one... think about how RL mythologies are formed. At least some things - Herr and Frau; the Jaggermeister - likely existed prior to Kell’s appearance. In addition, the feeling I got was that the Sovereign was more akin to a King Arthur type figure than a deity. Head of state vs. God figure. There are a LOT of KA parallels and I don’t think it’s accidental. (Leaving, but being said to return one day. Loyal priests vs knights.) That’s a pretty big difference. He also chose to leave, which I think is important. As for the crew being nervous - other, very similar looking people who are immune to cold, just tortured them. I’d be nervous too; how do I know these ones are really different?