Kinolee

Does raysium still exist now that Rayse is dead? Or do we just change the name to vargonium now? Or is vargonium a new metal with different properties? It's so interesting to me that the godmetals are all named after the vessel, not the shard. I just wonder if that is meaningful.

I think we can potentially take some cues from the Singer forms. Workform utilizes a gravityspren. Warfarm utilizes a painspren. I wouldn't be surprised if one of those was the platespren for stonewards. Actually, since Taln is our main man stoneward apparently... I'm gonna go ahead and guess painspren there, and gravityspren for our gal Venli and the other soon-to-be listener Willshapers. These are the ones that are known: Windrunners = Windspren Elsecallers = Logicspren These are the ones that are commonly agreed upon, just based on the lesser spren often seen around known Knights of these orders: Lightweavers = Creationspren Bondsmiths = Gloryspren Edgedancers = Lifespren These are the ones I'm personally pretty sure of, because they make sense to me: Dustbringers = Flamespren Willshapers = Gravityspren Stonewards = Painspren And these two, I just have no idea TBH Truthwatchers = ?? Skybreakers = ?? I like your suggestion that truthwatchers might use anticipationspren. I can adopt that headcannon, perhaps. We just don't know nearly enough about actual Truthwatchers, though. I don't know if Renarin's experiences are sufficient to judge the whole order by. And I can't really think of a good spren for the Skybreakers. A lot of people have said starpren in the past, but starspren are just way too rare IMO. Maybe they get the gravityspren instead of the willshapers, but then I don't know what spren the willshapers would have.

Just a small update... Brandon officially RAFO'd me on this... darn I was hoping I could trick him into at least confirming that Raboniel was lying, even if he wasn't ready to reveal what the metal is. But then again... he could have just said "nah, she's telling the truth..."

No it doesn't. Burning nicrosil as an allomancer allows you to cause a person you are touching to expend all of their investiture in a single large burst. The ability of nicrosil to allow someone to steal investiture comes from hemalurgy, not allomancy. It's feruchemical property is as I've said, storage of investiture. That said, since the dagger is designed for stabbing, and Raboniel even claimed that generally stabbing is needed for the dagger to work, maybe we really are dealing with hemalurgy here. Maybe this is the first example of hemalurgy being used outside of Scadrial. But then I have to ask... if nicrosil is what is causing the investiture to be stolen, then what is the point of the raysium? Perhaps nicrosil is the metal that does the stealing, and raysium simply causes that investiture to be conducted into the gemstone (instead of stored in the metal of the hemalurgic spike)? I don't think this the case though. It's the blade that does the stabbing part, and as far as we know there is no nicrosil in the blade itself, only in the housing of the ruby. I think it's much more likely that the nicrosil is meant to add an investiture-storage property to the ruby fabrial, and that raysium is conducting investiture there. IMO, I don't believe there are any metallic arts being employed here. No hemalurgy, allomancy, or feruchemy. We already know from Navani's lecture on fabrial mechanics that metals across the cosmere have specific effects on investiture that have nothing directly to do with Scardrial's metallic arts, and that artifabrians on Roshar exploit those innate properties in their engineering. It's the other way around -- Scadrial was created by two shards after the Shattering, so it makes sense that their magic system is sort of a copy and expansion on the natural universe and physical laws created originally by Adonalsium. I think nicrosil's innate properties have to do with storing, directing, or otherwise controlling investiture, and that's what its function in the dagger is here.

Yes I think you are correct here, and I should have been more clear in my OP. I don't think the nicrosil has anything to do with the investiture-drawing function of the dagger. Rather, I believe its entire purpose is to create a fabrial that perfectly stores investiture that has already been drawn out by raysium. It's a two-part system. The raysium conducts the investiture and the ruby/nicrosil fabrial at the base stores that investiture. The raysium vein can then be removed and reversed such that the investiture is conducted either to or from the gemstone storage -- likely via the use of magnetism/poliarity. There are so many mentions of polarity in the book, and specifically there is one mention that Raboniel knows a way to polarize otherwise non-magnetic metals... I don't think the raysium vein is a composite or an alloy or anything like that. I just think it is polarized such that the investiture flows from the negative end to the positive end, like an electromagnet -- except more like an investituremagnet in this case. That's why flipping the vein changes the flow of investiture to or from the gemstone. The part where the nicrosil surely comes in is in the storage, not the flow.

What do you guys think about this being an example of hemalurgy instead of feruchemy? Afterall, I think Raboniel did say that the dagger only really works when you stab someone with it... The hemalurgical property of nicrosil is that it steals investiture. It seems to fit here. But being that the dagger's original purpose was to trap a Herald, rather than kill one... I think the part about nicrosil storing investiture is important too. What if this is an example of using a nicrosil metalmind as a hemalurgic spike? Using nicrosil to both steal and store investiture, that is then conducted by the raysium to the gemstone. I feel like I'm on to something...

I've been having lots of fun translating Navani's notebook recently. Most of it is just flavor, but I do think I have found at least one important thing hidden here. Check out this page about Raboniel's Soul-Harvesting Dagger... I suspect this "silver-nickel" alloy is actually nicrosil, which is really a chromium-nickel alloy, and that Raboniel is lying here to throw Navani off the trail. She says on this very page that Navani is right not to trust her. Nicrosil has the feruchemical property of storing investiture. I find it hard to believe that the housing of the gemstone is unrelated to the function of the dagger (all fabrials are housed in a meaningful metal cage, afterall). So what are the chances that this is not nicrosil? 12/9 update: Got a RAFO about this from Brandon. Very interesting.

Just wanted to pop in and post the translations I made. I attached them all to this post -- two versions, one is my interpretation, and the other is a direct translation (errors and all). @Palanaeum I think I found only two errors in your translations: On pg. 1 (Fourth Bridge) you have "levers" where it should be "levels" On pg.2 (Arnist Method) you are missing the "eye" in "eyebolts" Other than that, I think we agree! Personally, I don't subscribe to the theory that the height marker at the beginning of some lines is punctuation like some people, and you hear, believe. If this mark is truly a "period" that goes at the beginning of the sentence instead of the end, then there are just way too many run-on sentences in most script I've seen. Not to mention, we see here the use of question marks, which go at the end of sentences, and so why should other types of Women's Script punctuation be different? I think the height marker is just something that someone writes every time they begin writing anew after picking up the pen or taking a break, etc. To keep the heights of the characters consistent. So the translations I've done add in some periods and start new sentences where yours doesn't. Overall, I think the meaning is the same.

Taravangianium, perhaps? Bit of a mouthful if you ask me Vargonium

I agree! I really like your theory about the Intents all having a subgroup as well as a main group... Brandon definitely likes his overlapping connections. That the Shards/Intents could be sorted not only by their 4 main categories, but also by a common subcategory, sounds exactly like something Brandon would design. It reminds me of how the metals can be split up into 4 broad categories, but also they can be split up according to internal vs. external, push vs. pull etc. So I like your idea, I just don't think I'm sold on the idea that the subgroups are the same as the primary groups. Like Unite -> Unite doesn't seem like it's a super useful categorization. And also I don't know that there is a large enough difference between Change -> Unite and Unite -> Change. To me, it would make much more sense if the subgroups were something completely different than the primary groups. So, stealing your idea of a map/subgroups, but changing it just a little bit, and using the Commands I came up with, it looks kinda like this: Change - External - Positive = Change - External - Negative = Ruin Change - Internal - Positive = Cultivation Change - Internal - Negative = Endowment (?) Unite - External - Positive = Honor Unite - External - Negative = Dominion Unite - Internal - Positive = Unite - Internal - Negative = Survive - External - Positive = Preservation Survive - External - Negative = The shard that just wants to hide and survive Survive - Internal - Positive = Survive - Internal - Negative = Choose - External - Positive = Devotion Choose - External - Negative = Ambition Choose - Internal - Positive = Autonomy Choose - Internal - Negative = Odium Endowment is consistently the hardest Intent for me to place. That one and the Selish Shards -- the Intents seem so hard to define/understand. And also I'm not super sold on the external/internal positive/negative terminology. Just trying to think like Brandon, and this really really just reminds me of Scadrian metal classification. And, in a real world way, it would make sense for Brandon to have this kind of classification system on his mind when writing/designing Mistborn which was his first multi-part series in the Cosmere. And also, just to be honest, I'm in the camp that isn't a fan of Divide/Destroy being one of the Commands. That doesn't seem like something that would be designed with the intent of using it to create life. Death is a part of life, but I feel like that is encompassed well enough by Change. And I feel like there's just going to have to be two camps on this issue until we get further hints about the Dawnshards from WOB or from other texts. Gotta say I LOVE all the dialogue about it, and that there's competing ideas! What do you think?

I decided I think I prefer the Command "Choose" or "Decide" rather than "Care." It makes the Command more about requiring agency, deciding your own purpose/meaning, and free will etc.

Maybe! Though I do think it fits better in Survive. "Care" (and I'm not sold that name btw, I just struggle to think of a better word), to me is the meaning of life, that life has to have a purpose. Preservation, perseverance, for its own sake, doesn't seem to have a lot of meaning IMO. I like it!! I definitely am not a fan of "Care," I was just having trouble thinking of a better word. The only issue I have with "Purpose" is that it's not an imperative. Like you can tell someone "to care" or "to unite" or "to change" etc, but you can't tell someone "to purpose," you can only tell them "to have purpose." I still like it though. And imperative verbs in English aren't going to all translate to other languages either, so maybe it's not really that important to sound like a command after all. Anyway, I agree! Thanks!

Emphasis added. It seems that it takes the combination of a Command and an Intent to wield the power of Creation (and likewise the power of Destruction, judging by what happened to Adonalsim). But this combined power is too much for a single person to handle alone. Adonalsim likely was able to wield this power on its own because it is a deity, a force, a God that "transcends traditional mortal understanding." The people who Shattered Adonalsium were not deities. They were just people. Dragons, humans, mortal or "immortal" (though they all can die), they were just people. And therefore they must have had to work in groups. My theory is that it must have required at least four people, all with similar Intents, to wield a single Command. And thus, four groups of four, 16 Intents, 16 vessels, 16 Shards.

The idea that the 16 Shards can be categorized in groups of 4 (a la Mistborn metals) is not a new one, and I think Dawnshard is going to further support that theory. The mural that seems to depict The Shattering of Adonalsium and imbues Rysn with her Command is described as having 16 "mostly symmetrical pieces" grouped into fours. So let's make groups of 4! I'm sure there's going to be tons of different theories on how the Shards are organized. Even when trying to find commonalities between all the Shards, there's bound to be people who see different patterns than others. Let's start with what we know, or at least what we think we know... About the Dawnshards in general: The Dawnshards are "the four primal Commands that created all things" The Dawnshards were used to undo Adonalsium itself Both a Command and Intent are required to use "the most powerful forms of Surgebinding [Magic]" that ordinarily "transcends traditional mortal understanding." These are demands "on a level no person could ever manage alone" -- a single person would not be able to handle wielding this combined power. So the Dawnshards predate the Shattering of Adonalsium and thus cannot have been created by the Shattering. They were used to create all things -- the power of creation, potentially wielded by Adoalsium, who is a deity. The people (Dragon, Human, mortal or immortal, but otherwise just people, not deities) who Shattered Adonalsium would have been incapable of using a Command on their own, even with the proper Intent. -- Could they have been required to work in groups of four? I think perhaps four people with similar Intents likely were needed to use each Command, and then the four Commands must have been used together to kill God. Four groups of four, with each person having a specific Intent that somewhat related to the Command they were helping to wield. And what do we know about the Commands specifically: Rysn's Command seems to have a theme, which is Change. "Accept it. Know it. CHANGE." "It was then that she grasped, in the smallest way, the nature of the Command inside her. The will of a god to remake things, to demand they be better. The power to change." Rysn seems to be able to appreciate colors and tastes much more clearly after being imbued with the Command, which is similar to the effects of investiture created by Endowment (Breaths, Nalthis) "Storms. Was it her, or did this tea taste extra good? She inspected it, then glanced at the sunlight pouring through the porthole. Was it . . . brighter than usual? Why did the colors in her room look so exceptionally vivid all of a sudden?" Rysn also appreciates the musicality in Drlwan's voice -- is this another effect similar to that of a Heightening? Or is Rysn potentially hearing the Rhythms of Roshar? "Strange, how she saw the contrast of shadows much more starkly now. And . . . why did Drlwan’s voice sound more musical?" The Command agrees(?) with Rysn's decision to let Cord keep her Shardplate out of tradition. Because it's the honorable thing to do? Because it's a gift that Rysn has endowed to Cord? Tradition, doing something because it has been done before, actually seems to be somewhat in opposition to the theme of "Change," so I feel this is important to explore. "'Cord discovered it,' Rysn said. 'It’s traditional to let the one who first claims a Shard keep it.' The Command pulsed with warmth as she said that." So based on this information, I feel pretty sure that we can at least begin to categorize the Shards. Everything that follows here is just my best guess at a grouping. CHANGE -- "The will of a god to remake things, to demand they be better. The power to change." Endowment -- Must be, based on the changes Rysn is experiencing. Even though I personally feel like it's a stretch to put this here. Advancement? The addition of things, or gaining of new things, to improve or grow? Cultivation -- Growth, personal improvement, etc. Could be the source of Rysn beginning to hear the Rhythms. Definitely belongs in this category. Ruin -- Entropy, decay, mortality. Definitely belongs in this category. ? SURVIVE -- The will of a god to create enduring life, that extends itself into infinity even beyond it's own death. The power to survive. Preservation -- Stability, safety, unchanging. Definitely belongs in this category, and really the basis for why I think "SURVIVE" or "LIVE" must be a command -- because Kelsier certainly hears the Command to SURVIVE in Mistborn, and it is not coming from Leras. Autonomy -- Self-reliance, individualism, independence. The ability to survive while depending on only yourself. Definitely belongs in this category. The unknown shard "who just wants to hide and survive." -- Obviously belongs in this category even though we don't know what the true intent is. ? UNITE -- The will of a god to bind things, to conncet people with eachother and with the land and life around them. The power to unite. Honor -- Oaths, connecting people to eachother, binding them to their words and traditions. Obviously belongs in this category, and the basis for why I think "UNITE" or "CONNECT" must be a command -- because Dalinar certainly hears the Command to UNITE all throughout SA, and it is not the Stormfather, nor is it Tanavast. Dominion -- Connecting people to the land, and to eachother with political power and territory. This one may be a stretch, but it's my best guess. I think it probably belongs in this category. ? ? CARE -- The will of a god to create meaning and purpose, to demand that life exists for a reason. The power to care. Odium -- Pasion, love, hatred, emotion, motivation (though "Motivation" would be a great Shard name on its own). Definitely belongs in this category. Devotion -- Purpose, worship, crusades/quests. This one is also a stretch; honestly I have the hardest time with the Selish Shards because their Intents are confusing to me. But I believe this one belongs here. You devote yourself to a mission or a purpose in life, whatever that may be.. Ambition -- Personal goals, enthusiasm, striving to achieve. If devotion belongs here then Ambition certainly does as well. ? If Wisdom is the Shard that just wants to "hide and survive" then it belongs under the SURVIVE Command. But if Wisdom is a completely different shard, then I would want to probably put it under the CHANGE command, because knowledge changes you. Actually... now that I think about it, I think there may be two Shards here. "Wisdom" is a thing that you have whereas "Knowledge" is something that you gain with time and experience and experimentation. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that "Wisdom" is the shard that wants to survive and hide, and keep its secrets, and just study the world as it is without affecting the outcome, and that there is another shard along the lines of "Knowledge" or "Discovery" that is about change through experiences. Anyway, just had to write down my own thoughts. I'm really interested to see how other people categorize the shards. And I'm also interested in thoughts on my categorizations and would love for people to poke holes in it or improve it or change it around so it fits better. What do you guys think?

Do we know this for sure? Also, Cultivation doesn't have to be dead to be unavailable. Maybe she had a part in splintering Honor (I saw a theory that said Cultivation might want Honor dead so as to stop the repeating cycle of Desolations, in line with her intent). Maybe Honor and Cultivation used to directly help humans fight against Odium, and the Last Desolation involved Cultivation teaming up with Odium to splinter Honor. No more Dawnshards for the humans...

And to go along with this theory, I think that Honor was splintered during (or at the end of) the Last Desolation. The humans had the Dawnshards to help them with Desolations up until this point, but now they no longer do. Further proof of this comes from something that Arclo says to Lift in Edgedancer:

I just completed a reread of TWOK, my first after finishing all of the other works in the Cosmere, and had a thought about the Dawnshards... The only things we know for sure about the Dawnshards is that: They are not the same thing as regular shards on Roshar (shardblades), nor are they they same thing as the Honorblades which were held by the Heralds. -- WOB They played a huge role in protecting humanity on Roshar from the desolations in the past, and Honor is worried about the fact that they are now lost -- Dalinar's final vision in TWOK They can bind "any creature voidish or mortal" which apparently is a special property -- Poem of Ista Given all this info, it seems to me that most people thing the Dawnshards were some sort of ancient Spren that could bind to voidish and/or mortal beings that conferred unique powers that are now lost. Perhaps the people these Dawnshards bound were the Dawnsingers. It's a great theory, but I've got another, simpler one... What if the "Dawnshards" are actually just another way to describe Shards of Adonalsium? I started the Cosmere with the Stormlight Archives, so it has always confused me just how many different things are described as "Shards." What if, on Roshar, the BIG shards, the "complete" Shards of Adonalsium (ie Honor, Cultivation, Odium), are referred to as the Dawnshards in order to differentiate them from different, regular "shards" which are actually shards of shards (spren). Here's why I think this might fit: They are the shards that existed on Roshar at the "dawn" of creation, ergo they are the "Dawnshards" "Talk of them was obviously prevalent among those recording the early mythologies" They can bind any creature voidish or mortal. As far as we know, there aren't any limitations on picking up or holding a Shard of Adonalsium They existed some time ago and played a part in helping humanity fight off the desolations (Honor and Cultivation vs. Odium) But they are lost now (Honor and Cultivation are dead/splintered), and Honor is worried that humanity can't fight off the desolations (Odium) without them The magic system on Roshar seems somewhat different in present times (post-splintering?) than in Dalinar's visions of the past (pre-splintering?) If I'm right, then this gives the following quote form the Poem of Ista new meaning... Someone tried to hold on to a Shard of Adonalsium, probably Honor, presumably after its original bearer died. They must not have been able to hold onto it because we know now that Honor is splintered. Maybe this is why the person in the poem had to "crawl" up the steps. What do you guys think? Poke holes in this for me...

I specifically remember someone using this example when I first learned about it. I think that might be where I got it from. Or at least someone explaining it in the same way. Now that I think about it. I think it was someone asking a question about whether or not Sazed could heal back his frank n' beans and the answer was "no" because of this problem.

I really don't think it's Feruchemy, though. Iron stores weight, not Weight. Steel stores speed, not Speed. I also don't see why an Elantrian would use an idiom that involves Scadrian Feruchemy, especially regarding a metal (Chromium) that was completely unknown to the Feruchemists of that time. They didn't even know that there were 16 metals back then. It's not a phrase that would have ever been used on Scadrial at the time, let alone Sel.

Well... I confess it isn't my own original idea. I read it somewhere, but honestly now I don't know where. It could have been WoB or it could have been a random Reddit comment. The idea that the physical body is representative of our cognitive version of ourselves is, I'm pretty sure, from one of the books though.

Because part of Kelsier's "identity" in the cognitive realm involves him having scars. It's the same reason why Sazed can't grow back his genitals. Your physical body conforms to the identity a person/thing holds of itself, and for Kelsier that includes his scars.

Actually, I change my mind. The Ire must have gone to Roshar first, because that's probably where they picked up that anti-Shadow fabrial. The Desolation was a long time ago, so I'm sure the timeline fits better in this order anyway. Does this mean that Tanavast/Honor was splintered before Leras/Preservation died?

- Words of Radiance, Location 1272, Kindle Is this the same fortress that the Ire are set up in? It doesn't match Kelsier's description of the fortress, but then again it is existing mostly in the Cognitive realm, not the Physical one, in Secret History. But Kelsier states that he can tell the bricks came from somewhere else... If it is the same Fortress, it did didn't originate on Roshar, though. The plants on Roshar are more than just "green," they're hard and crusty and mobile. And still... this is the second fortress in the middle of a giant body of water that we've come across. And what happened to the fortress on Roshar if it is no longer there in Dalinar's time? I think the fortress might represent a way to travel between worlds that doesn't involve Shardpools. Afterall, I don't think the Ire got to Scadrial via either of the pools there. And if the fortress is an alternative means of transportation (or is located on one), it would explain why the 17th Shard is looking for Hoid in the Purelake. --- So my theory is this... the fortress originated on Sel and it is Elantrian architecture. It was built in the middle of a lake or ocean (possibly Lake Alonoe) and the Ire somehow uses it to travel between Shardworlds while they search for a Shard to bring back to Sel. They came to Scadrial first to try to capture Preservation after Leras was killed. They set the fortress down in a giant ocean. The water helps the bricks of the fortress hold on to their "identity" in the cognitive realm. After the Ire failed to capture Preservation, they moved to Roshar to try to capture Honor after Tanavast was killed. Unfortunately, Honor was splintered by Odium in the Desolation despite the Ire trying to stop that from happening (Dalinar's vision). Having failed a second time to capture a Shard, the fortress is then moved to another yet-unknown planet. This explains why the fortress is now gone in modern Roshar. ...OK how crazy am I?

Possibly? Einstein didn't think so, but Stephen Hawking does. I just don't know what else Fortune would be. Is she talking about the Feruchemical property of Chromium? Why use a capital F? None of the other attributes are capitalized in this way.

The Ire mentions Fortune, with a capital F. It sounds like a Shard to me. - Location 1389, Kindle Are we absolutely positive that there is no Shard on Threnody? I haven't read Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell because I didn't think it was important in the greater scheme of the Cosmere. I suppose I need to rethink that position now. Also, who is Senna? Whoever she is, she's likely the bearer of a Shard. Preservation mentions her. -Location 823, Kindle Maybe Senna is the holder of Fortune. Maybe she's someone totally different. Why do I assume she's a she?