Aradel

It's not as crazy as you think. I've been considering the same idea but haven't finished putting all my evidence together. We know that having a champion (sword) didn't solve all of Harmony's issues the way he hoped, Discord may be plan B.

My thought is that Sazed's plan is to create a new sword that won't break on him. One that isn't mortal. I think that Discord isn't a problem Sazed is trying to suppress, Discord is an Avatar he's choosing to create that he can play off of and against. Like the original Ruin and Preservation but split across different lines. Also: he is absolutely lying to Kelsier and probably Marsh. Telling them means they'd try to stop him.

I'm willing to believe it was Pattern's blade that killed Tyn. I have a pet theory that Testament's blade is in someone else's hands. After all, when the recreance happened all the spren got stuck as blades in the physical realm. Shallan still has a connection to Testament, but we never see her appear when Shallan crosses into Shadesmar like Mya does with Adolin.

There's also the "Must be refined" line for Atium breathing some life back into the "Atium from the pits is an alloy" theory.

I'm already here.

I'm not sure the stone shamans count. They seem to be well known in Shinovar.

So when at the signing, I asked Brandon just how many secret societies were on Roshar. The answer: THERE ARE NINE CURRENTLY WORKING. So far, I've worked out about six. Again: Slight Spoilers! 1: The 17th Shard (Brandon Confirmed) 2: Ghostbloods 3: Mr. T and the followers of the Diagram 4: Sons of Honor 5: Skybreakers 6: Envisagers? (Teft's family) 7: ? 8: ? 9: ? Did anyone catch any I missed?

Count me in.

I would think that tin wouldn't help much with seeing spren unless it helps the user see into the cognitive realm. The mist, so far as I know, exists in the physical realm. So there's no precedent for tin helping see anything cognitive, even if "tuning in" works on Roshar as well as it does on Scadrial.

Luck I'd bet! Storing luck with Feruchemy can make you less likely to be involved in important events, the reverse is true when you draw on it. Also:rolling dice or spinning weapons ala Matt (Towers of Midnight) to decide where to go sounds like a very Hoidish thing to do.Edit: actually, that would be an Atium piercing wouldn't it? Oh well, for all we know, he might have one of those too.

Alloy of Law: Where Wax spys a tassel hanging out of a chest. "You're Welcome."

Mine is simple, Brandon knew my uncle from college and based captain Goradel on him. My username here was Goradel's nephew until I'd showed up to enough signings that Brandon dubbed me Aaradel. This is the only place I use it as my forum name though. I use different usernames all over the place.

Kirk, you're forgetting spanreeds. If stormlight infused gems and spren can sync to each other across vast distances, there may be a functional equivilant for Scadrial. Especially considering the "Magic Technology" Brandon has said exsists there. It might work, but I'll bet it's more than a little tricky.

I can agree with them being seperate things, but the problem with poopspren isn't that isn't that we lack a cognitive Ideal for poop, it's that poop doesn't stay poop long enough for an Identity to be established. What I was trying to say (and failing) was that individual cognitive Identities are the source of "fact checking" in regards to shardic interactions, but cognitive Ideals are what shape and influence Identities. Cognitive Ideals being a set of perceptions held in common by a group of people. Spren are a bit trickier, so I'll have to explain more what I mean when I finally get my Realmantics theory posted.

I still don't like the idea of a centralized form for cognitive ideals that you seem too be suggesting. (maybe I'm wrong.) I've always felt that it's more direct than that. The example I used before was: a window's concept of itself comes from the window-maker. Its initial cognitive form is slightly different from even a similar window if it was made by a someone else. From then on, the window is somewhat influenced by everyone else who makes contact with it. This would mean that every window has it's own independent cognitive identity, and the cognitive ideals of windows are only similar because people who interact with windows share perspective. It also makes it easier for Vasher to hide himself if people don't perceive him as returned.

it's the "gathered consciousness" bit that has me intrigued.

Is there any way I'm not going to go for this?

I'm pretty sure that Rayse could have cheesed any number of people off. But I'm just playing devil's advocate.

Had another brain bender. Kurk, I'm going to start stalking you if I keep getting ideas like this when I read your topics. I've been struggling with your 'forms' theory and how concepts and ideas can exsist tangibly in the spiritual realm. I can't help but see concepts and ideas - which may or may not have a tangible aspect in the cognitive realm, and definitly have no tangible physical aspect - as intrinsically (sp?) different from objects and beings that have a tangible aspect all three realms. Your theory does make a certain amount of sense, but I can't help but think there may be a simpler solution. Anyway, the question sparked another thought about a Shard's Intent. We know that all Shards are tied inseperably with an Intent. For a while I thought that Intents were some kind of cognitive restiction, but what if Intents and Ideals (as mentioned by whatshisname the cook/scholar in WoK) are how spiritual energy exsists in the spirtual realms? I'm on my mobile so I'll be breif. Intents are the tangible "lines" of spiritual energy that exsist in spiritwebs. Like a craftsman's Intent is what forms a spiritual bond between him and his materials, allowing him to define the spiritual aspect of the final product, a gardener's intent to Cultivate a garden forms a connection between them, a leader's intent to Honor his word to his subordinates helps him form a bond with them, and so forth. Aside from Intents there are Ideals - the perfect form of something that has a Physical and/or Cognitive aspect. This Ideal is the spiritual aspect of objects and living things. I'd post more but I'm running late. Kurk, you ready to poke some holes?

I just had a facepalm moment. The window's spiritual aspect doesn't become a window when people look at it and think "window", the spiritual aspect is made into a window when the window is being made. The process is started by the craftsman, who first gives the glass and wood he uses meaning, and reinforced by other people's perception of it as a window. The original stained glass window was a work of art, and most likely took a great deal of effort by the craftsman, so the 'form' he gave it was strong. When it was repaired, it was repaired carelessly, so the original form was still strong when Shai applied her seal.

So Kurk, I had the thought that spiritual connections might extend into the cognitive and physical realms as well. Like strings holding the three aspects together. If this is true, then your Forms could exsist in the cognitive realm as opposed to the spiritual, and still be part of the "network". My inner OCD thinks "collective ideas" should be cognitive. Also I wanted your opinion on whether Ashraven's headwound in TES destroyed or diconnected part of his mind or spirit. I'm waffling again.

I probably don't have the background for understanding it.

Okay, the first part was pretty much what we've been saying and the second part I can't make heads or tails of.

I concede the goblet, but I don't think I'm completely wrong. Like you said, Jasnah Soulcast Shallan's blood separately from Shallan herself. Which at least means (to me) that Soulcasting can affect smaller Cognitive aspects within a larger aspect. Whether that's made easier by blood being one of the ten essences and/or Jasnah's personal skill is still up for debate. I'm not disagreeing with you there, Forging does seem to be a primarily spiritual magic, though I think that with shardic power I see it less as "trickling" and more "flowing" or "rushing" down the line. "Tickling" works for normal non-shardic interactions though. I guess I'm waffling (to use your own word)on how much of someone's essence is spiritual, and how much is cognitive. Cognitive is supposed to be how an object views itself, but I guess when I think about it, a person's cognitive aspect doesn't have to be correct in it's views. In fact our self-image can be inaccurate. TES suggests that Shai's success with the stained glass window may have been because the window, in spite of neglect, still saw itself as (or wanted to be) something beautiful, which helped the stamp hold.