Calderis

I'm genuinely confused by this rationale. We see inside Adolin's head more than any character who isn't one of the "big three" over the course of the series, and there's plenty to judge about his motivations... And even if there weren't, a person can't be judged by their words and actions? Adolin, as a character, has always seemed to be a character that's very clearly written, which is why the divisiveness of the character has surprised me continually.

Agreed on all counts. Which is why I still stand by the first sign of the process of her healing wasn't her speaking her name, or anything in the Physical. It was when she attacked the Fused to protect him. It as the first time she did something of her own volition.

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine while I'm not sure I agree with your theory, I do want to point out one thing that supports it. It's actually not a contradiction. She's talking about making a version more potent than it is naturally to make it take effect more quickly. We saw what fully dried leaves do with Lin Davar, and it's not nearly so quick or effective. We have seen exactly this method though. On the darts that Iyatil used to try and kill Amaram.

I partially agree with you, but definitely think he is a distinct type and he's using Transportation. I do think he's "abandoning" his body like you say... And only using transportation to redesignate where his physical body is supposed to be... Which "heals" him a new one, including healing shard severed hands and regrowing broken carapace spikes, but it's technically healing back the "same body." which is why the old one crumbles to dust, just like growing shardplate in a separate location. It's the same body and can't exist in two places at once.

Formless, is... Not a single thing, per Radiant. It's indistinct possibilities that have not become personas. It's potential personas that may or may not gain form depending on a variety of factors in Shallan's stability.

He also created a new body with every Teleportation. He's creating matter, just like with healing. That's clearly not doing the same thing. The transition itself maybe, but the body definitely not.

It does. But to quote @Master_Moridin from this same discussion that were having on discord at the moment Just look at awakening and this is minor in comparison.

In certain cases with the Fused, most notably the Shanay-im, we are seeing a phenomenon where they seem to be able to use their abilities without any seeming cost. I have an idea for how this may be happening. Imagine that using a surge functions like a water wheel. Windrunner performs a lashing, and stormlight flows past the water wheel performing work. The entire time this happens, stormlight flows away and is depleted. You would expect voidlight to work the same, and in some cases it seems to, like when Moash was lashed into the air to meet with Leshwi in OB. But this only appears to happen when the shanay-im lash something other than themselves. When they lash themselves, the effect seems to be ongoing. I think that they've replaced the water wheel with a closed loop system. A feedback loop. Voidlight flows out over the "water wheel" and right back into the reservoir. So long as they don't push that power outside of themselves(lashing, slicking.,or placing an illusion on something other than themselves, possibly realmatic transition if they were to make a perp though I think Lezian is using the power somewhat differently here that relies in the Fused's spren like nature) or use it for the creation of matter, as healing does, there is no loss. The downside to this, I think, is that the upper limit of how much voidlight they can carry is much lower, which means that again, using the shanay-im as an example, the maximum number of lashings they can use at once is much lower, giving Windrunners and Skybreakers a distinct advantage in the short term. And it makes the choice to lash something else or a need to heal much more relatively costly. If a Fused can outlast a Radiant without the need for external uses or healing though? They can just keep on going. I'm interested to see if I'm correct here. Regardless, their mechanics are intriguing.

Yep. Taravangian's "illness" that covered his trip to the Nightwatcher was "5 years ago" in OB. Dalinar's trip to the Nightwatcher? It is the only flashback in the series to have a partial year indicator. 5 1/2 years.

At this point, I totally believe that all Adolin needs to do is get to the point that he's the equivalent of a third oath Edgedancer where Maya could be a blade through him to be healed. Yes, swearing the oaths is not in itself enough. But per the fact he 7 heartbeat summon, she's already healing imo. Whatever "extra" needs to happen I think already has. I don't think he'll get any powers until she's healed, and I at that point if she wants to end the bond that's her choice... But I don't think she will. As to the idea that she's going to hate humans in general... I think the spren were at minimum complicit in the recreance and that it was most likely their idea to begin with. So no, seeing that the Desolations have returned, I think she'll serve to give us some much needed information.

Absolutely @robardin. The Lightweaver "oaths" may be the most malleable, but I think all of the orders oaths after the second are going to be just as intensely personal for the person saying them. It may not be this specific issue for others, but there will be some kind of issue that ties in.

Even that not necessarily true. Just means he's either not progressed enough to summon a blade or he hasn't summoned his blade in a few hours. Kaladin's eyes revert to dark as well.

I think that's because she basically doing the exact same thing that people here are. She doesn't know what it is. She can't remember. So she looks at her other oaths and assumes this must be even worse.

It seems to be the consensus that Kaladin cares too much. That he needs to forgive himself for his failures. That he needs to learn the advice his father always tried to teach him to "choose when to care" and to grow calluses... I disagree. Caring is fine. Grieving is fine. Kaladin's issue, in my mind, has never been about caring too much. And it's not about forgiving himself either. His biggest issue, to me, is summed up by Syl when Kal finds Eth's body shortly after Szeth's first attack in Dalinar. I underlined that last bit because that's it. Kaladin doesn't just want to protect people from harm. He wants to protect them from their own choices. He blames himself for the things other people choose to do. It's why he was scared of Bridge Four forming romantic relationships because it would be harder to protect them. Whether it's the slaves that died in revolts he lead. Or Sah and the other singers he knew, or Moash... He has to respect other people's choices. Whether that means that they go into battle for the same reasons as him and die doing what they believe is right, or that puts them at odds with him and results in them fighting, and even dying by his hand... They made their own choices and that isn't his fault. Kaladin doesn't need to let go of the past, or learn when to care. He doesn't need to forgive himself for his failures. Kaladin needs to recognize that doing his best and failing requires no forgiveness, and that he can't protect people from themselves. He needs to recognize that there's nothing to forgive himself for.

As someone who suffers from depression myself the sentiment that Kaladin should get over it is mildly infuriating... But I understand it. Here's the thing. The frustration that you feel when you read Kaladin and he's falling back into the same cycle? Those of us who suffer feel it to, about ourselves. The people who love us feel it, and it's hard for them, harder than for us in some ways. The frustration is natural. I can't speak for Brandon, but I think that the frustration is intentional. It's what someone who loves someone with depression is bound to feel at times, and we all love Kal. That said, I think one way or another this shift will be good for Kal. He needs some new coping mechanisms to deal with this when it happens... And he needs to allow the people who care for him in. He has a support network. He needs to let them support him.

While my thoughts on the issue have been pretty clear, can we please not drag this thread into another ship argument? While I think it's obvious that relationships and mental health are obviously intertwined, the triangle is so horrendously biased that the emotional attachments of people's preference plays far more role in these discussions than Shallan's actual mental health. I made this thread to discuss the direction Brandon's chosen to take her. Not rehash the same arguments we've all been party to far far too many times.

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine every time I see your username I picture Hoid in a California raisins outfit singing and dancing, while simultaneously remembering the first time I learned of you, which gives him an awakened toupee. It's a storming weird mental image you built, all I can say.

Except it has always been the same issues and the shift in explanation has always been outside the books. To someone reading just the books, without regard to what Brandon has to say about them, this is just a sequence of events with foreshadowing of dissociation all the way back in our first glimpses of Shallan. The issues have always been the same, but Brandon's willingness to embrace that, and do the proper research, and just say that's what it is has changed. Take his commentary out of it, and your problem disappears.

I seriously hope it's not Kel. Iyatil is of Scadrian heritage but was born in Silverlight and was a member of the Seventeenth Shard before joining the Ghostbloods. Kelsier is stuck on Scadrial still. We don't actually know if Iyatil has ever been to Scadrial. There's a whole Cosmere for the ghostbloods to have originated from.

I agree she will have a fairly rapid spiral downward and another rapid progression if formless is indeed her original self. I don't think here bond will suffer for that any more than it did in OB. She will be facing her truths instead of denying them. Mental health regression or not, that's still progress for a lightweaver. And as I've said elsewhere, for the our purposes of representation of mental health, and showcasing realistic expectations and normalizing things that society views as "other" when it can be healthy I hope The Three remains as a lasting paradigm (whether the name changes or not).

Personally, I don't think that Shallan's last truth needs to be one single event that happened in her past. I think it's her whole childhood. I think Wit has already told her her final Truth and she just hasn't realized it or faced it yet. Look at the first truth we see her speak on screen. "I'm terrified." I don't think that's a truth of just that moment. She's a totally fear driven character. Everything about her is run, or hide. I think this last truth will be the same idea. It's bigger than just one thing. Every time her childhood comes up it's always this image of the perfect family in her head. A fairy tale of what she wishes her family could have been, placing all the blame for the trauma squarely on her shoulders for killing her mother. And it doesn't add up at all. Her father let everyone believe that he'd killed his wife in a jealous rage, and everyone was perfectly willing to believe it. Her mother tried to kill her. These are things that don't come out of nowhere. But she blames herself for all of it. In the same way a small child blames themselves for their parents getting divorced. I think the lie that attracted Pattern in the first place relates to this. I think Shallan was a frightened and confused little girl in a chaotic household filled with violence, and she just wanted to pretend that everything was alright. And we know where that led. Her mother trying to kill her because she was "one of them." I think her final Truth is going to be what Wit already told her. She doesn't deserve any of the the pain she's been through. She is not responsible for the pain and suffering of her family. No matter how much it hurts her to say it, no matter how much she loved them, her family was not perfect and none of what happened was her fault.

I, personally, don't think there is a "Cosmere big bad." I definitely think Autonomy is an antagonist, and Trell is a part of that... I feel like with the things that Brandon has said, the ending is going to more conflict between worlds and cultures than a direct contest of Shards. The Shards (whichever are still whole at least) will definitely have a role to play, but I very strongly doubt that the end is going to be everyone teaming up against "the one true evil."

From a narrative perspective trying to end Shallan where she starts would take her to a place of better outward presentation but larger flaws (much like Kaladin's view is first seen in the slave wagon) From a perspective of where she actually started... We still haven't seen that. Her flashbacks are riddled with dissociative moments. And we've seen nothing of her life before her mother's death. I'm quoting this part, because I think it's been blown way out of proportion generally. We have the Skybreakers description of their fifth as the oath in which they "become the law" and no explanation as to what that means or that it is in anyway some universal shift in the final oaths of the orders. Brandon has said that other than the First, Lightweavers don't have oaths, they have personal truths. I do believe that Shallan's Fifth will be her most fundamental Truth, but I don't think it will be some all encompassing self awareness that prevents all ability to lie to herself (from a psychological viewpoint that's just... Unrealistic as hell. We lie to ourselves constantly in little ways we never realize.) I think Shallan's Fifth is going to relate directly to the fact that we have still yet to see life before her mother's death. Every time that it has been brushed on or alluded to, Shallan presents it as a happy, stable, fairy tale family. She places all of the blame for what her family is on her own shoulders as if killing her mother is the moment that all the problems started. Perfect happy fairy tale mother's don't try to kill their children. This is an obvious lie. Not only did her mother try to kill her, but everyone was perfectly willing to believe that Lin killed her and her "friend" in a rage. That doesn't come out of nowhere. Her family has always been a chaotic mess, and I think that childhood trauma is the source of all her problems. My thoughts on what her childhood and her final truth are is this. I see child Shallan as a frightened and confused little girl, surrounded by violence and chaos, trying desperately to pretend that her life is a happy one. I think that's the lie that draws Pattern to her in the first place. And so she discovers her powers and begins to explore them with the abandon and delight of a child. Creating imagery and "imaginary friends" to have some semblance of happiness... And we know where that leads. Shallan placed the blame for the ruin of her family on her own shoulders the same way a young child will blame themselves for their parents divorce. Her Fifth truth, and her key to stability in whatever form that takes, is what Wit already told her. None of this is her fault.

Interesting article that a friend just shared with me unrelated to this thread that I thought would be a nice point to share here. https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200817-the-batman-effect-how-having-an-alter-ego-empowers-you?ocid=twwl Creating a persona, while obviously not to the extent shallan does, can be something that can benefit everyone's emotional health in their every day life. Who'd have ever guessed that the lines aren't as cut and dry as everyone likes to think.

I understand the use of the word "broken" in the context of SA... But yeah, I wouldn't use that to describe anyone in real life. Everyone has struggles. Everyone breaks. The important thing is that you try to pick up the pieces and hold yourself back together. The final product looks different for everyone, but I believe that it's perfectly possible to come out of the experience stronger than where you started. I'll never be "normal" and I'm fine with that. Breaking has let me see people and places and parts of the world I never would have if none of it had ever happened, and I've learned a lot from it all. As much as my past traumas and trials have made parts of my life harder, I also wouldn't be me without them. I wouldn't have met my wife or have my son. I wouldn't change any of it... Even the parts I'd rather forget. Even the parts I still regret. We break, and we learn from the past, and we get help from our friends and family and professionals. We grow. Learn from the past. Look to the future. And never let others ignorance define you. There's a reason Brandon is my favorite author, and as much as I'm addicted to realmatics this is why. 3 years ago, if you had told me I saw the potential for Shallan to become my favorite character, I'd have laughed in your face. This change, and what it could mean though? She's well on her way. I can't wait to see how she puts her pieces together, and how much stronger she is because of it.