nimvin

He took a deep breath. “Final terms are these: A contest of champions to the death. On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour. We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces. If I win that contest, you will remain bound to the system—but you will return Alethkar and Herdaz to me, with all of their occupants intact. You will vow to cease hostilities and maintain the peace, not working against my allies or our kingdoms in any way.” “Agreed,” Odium said. “But if I win, I keep everything I’ve won—including your homeland. I still remain bound to this system, and will still cease hostilities as you said above. But I will have your soul. To serve me, immortal. Will you do this? Because I agree to these terms.” “And I,” Dalinar whispered. “I agree to these terms.” “It is done.” That's the quote of the agreement from the end of RoW. So Odium is not banished to Braize if he loses it just becomes a cold war with the borders locked depending on who wins the contest as mdross81 stated. One thing I didn't see in the discussion about the "we killed you" quote. It could also have been between Honor and Cultivation to have Cultivation assist Odium in Honor's destruction because they had boxed themselves into a war THEY could not win as Odium has now done to himself as well. With Cultivation's future sight they may have seen the outcome we have now and so Honor sacrificed himself to keep Odium bound to the system and eventually defeated.

I could see the book going past the 10 days because one of the Champions escapes from the start of the battle, extending the fight. I'm not sure I believe that it will go down this way, but I can see it as a possibility.

As to your first point I agree Jasnah & Hoid for sure and likely Dalinar and/or Navani would see the problem but trying to "recruit" Ishar puts him on our heroes side and if he does something on his own I think that could definitely trigger the bad outcome I described. For the second point, I agree that Taravangian isn't going to just sit on his hands, but we have seen him help others implement their own destruction. (Jah Keved) And now he has a Herald he can use to go influence Ishar so who knows what other shenanigans may happen. Bits of this are lawyerly and Odium said it's the spirit of the agreement, but I think the words have weight as well. But there seemed too much emphasis on restoring the Oathpact at the end of the book, and I don't see how if that happens, it doesn't trigger a violation of the contest of champions.

So I have been thinking about what it is that Taravangian saw in his deal that he thought could be a loophole he could take advantage of. I have heard several people talk about the "child champion" as a possibility among others and I think we're not thinking deep enough. I keep going back to the bargaining scene between Dalinar and Odium and how breaking the contract would put Odium within Dalinar's power and vice versa. Then I go back to Taravangian's deal with Odium at the end of Oathbringer and how he specifies the spirit of the deal is what is binding not the wording (although I am sure it plays a role). Then I think about Brandon's promise at the end of the book, how Kal and Szeth are to fly to Shinovar and Kal is to bring Ishar back to help Dalinar with his bondsmith powers and Ishar says he can repair the Oathpact. I think if they succeed at such a task (repairing the Oathpact) that would be Dalinar reneging on his end of the bargain to have a contest of champions in 10 days time because it would prevent Odium from being able to send a champion to fight on his behalf. Therefore his champion was not unmolested on his journey to Urithiru. This would result in Odium being freed, because Dalinar would be within Odium's power. What do you guys think? Am I crazy or does this argument hold water?

Not to mention we've seen species intermingle in our FICTION for many many years. Blade and Spock just being two examples I think we can accept it on a general level. That said we have made the evolutionary argument for and against but why do the Parshendi of today have to be the same as they were 4500 years ago? Maybe their blood and physical makeup changed since the last "known" interbreeding happened. Thats a long time for a species to have walled itself off from all outside influences and these differences everyones talking about may be relatively new on the evolutionary scale. Just sayin. Carry on.

Where have we confirmed there are 5steps? WoB or on text?

Upon further thought its not even up to the KR or Heralds. It would be dependant upon the spren of the order. What do they "need" from the KR to fully actualize the bond to maximize what it is they get from the bond. I understand it allows them to think and maybe experience (?) the physical realm but is that the only benefit? They are simply intellectual hedonists? I imagine there is more to it we have yet to discover.

Looked up "oaths" in my kindle version. The word is a lot less common than I thought. And a third of the results were "Oaths"tone lol. After reviewing them all,I may have misconstrued Shallan and Patterns conversation. Short version LW only speak one oath. From there they admit truths. I am still not sold on 5 levels though. Speculation here but I imagine Nalen would have required oaths from all orders but additional,more binding, oaths from the more destructive orders. Hence lightweavers only have one oath.

I can't remember where I read (maybe an excerpt from in world WoR) but different KR orders have different number of oaths. Do we know which orders have 5 and which orders don't. Do the lightweaver and windrunners have the same number? If its 5 WR and 4LW he could referencing that Shallan has 1 togo while Kal still has 2 togo.

I will be upfront and say I'm withholding judgment on redemption. That said let me stir the pot some more. Personal kills for Szeth are probably somewhere between 75 and 200. If I was in vegas id say 133. Confirmed kills in text off the top of my head 2 prime viziers, 2 guards dead 1 maimed going for dalinar 1st time, Highprince Roion 2nd Dalinar attempt, 2 guards plus Gavilar, the 2 dozen or so when he went after the Highprince with the half-shards. When he recieves the list we get no number of targets just Szeth's shock at the bloodbath. Vorin culture being what it is knock off the top two in any vorin kingdom and I see things get bloody real fast. Now for all the deaths in Jah keved is he to blame. Vorin culture reacted the way Mr.T knew it would. Did szeth "know" this war would be the outcome. Maybe he is responsible for those deaths. My next statement may anger some and that is not my intent. I like playing devils advocate and making people think. Does anyone think Oliver North or Reagan is to blame for 9-11? We knew the Afghani rebels did not share our beliefs but we ascribed to the "enemy of our enemy" belief and provided arms, training, and funding to not just them but Osama bin Laden himself. The law of unintended consequences rears its head everywhere all the time. I personally absolve him of guilt for any death in regards to the vengeance pact AFTER the firsr gemheart was found. Everyone still wanted to kill parshendi but only on the way to a gemheart. Tl:dr I reserve judgement lol.

This is not possible as the drawing came (much? ) later unless time is different in Shadesmar ala' telaran'rhiod.

What I am wondering is where is it? At the end of WoR the Stormfather tells Dalinar "have to divest (himself) of that ... monstrosity that you carry." Dalinar proceeds to break the bond with his shardblade but while he is doing so he hears the blades screams in his head. This is supposed to be Talenelat's blade from when Dali ar bonded it to trick Amaram. We know that an honorblade will not scream in a radiant's head when he holds it from after Kaladin retrieves Szeth's blade after their fight. So that means this is not Talenelat's blade. Where is it? My prime suspect is Hoid. He shows up and is waiting for the herald's arrival in Kholinar and this would be the easiest place to trade out a different shardblade for an honorblade. We believe Hoid is a lightweaver like Shallan so does this offer him 2 more surges to have access to? Would he want it? Is it for someone else? And just because he's the most likely suspect doesn't mean he IS the culprit. So anyone have any ideas where Taln's honorblade is?