bo.montier

Great points. I think Wit talks about how despicable Rayse was pre ascension as well in an early epigraph. It strikes me that he WAS aligned with Odium, at least more so than T

Yeah, Ati is really a tragic figure ruin is a necessary part of life, but separated from the rest of godhood it’s just a depressing thing.

Right, Like Kelsier & Vin could do things with their power that wasn't strictly within the intent of Preservation, but Sazed is increasingly restricted. I think T will have less restrictions than any other shard, for a time, but eventually he'll be in the same situation as Rayse; his will and intent will be at odds with the shard's intent. Think of Ati, who was (from epigraph readings) not a destructive person when he took up ruin, but became a destructive force later on.

I just can't see Hoid not informing Sazed of Trell's identity, if Hoid know's Trell's identity, with as much dialogue as they've had. That, to me, is the biggest obstacle with it being any of the Rosharan shards. I don't see how Hoid can be on Roshar for 1-5 and then go to Scadrial between 5-6 and not know who Trell is if it's somehow a Rosharan shard, and I can't see him NOT telling Harmony if he knows who the enemy is. This is compounded by Sazed KNOWING so much about what is going on with Roshar from Hoid. That neither of them could figure it out with as much involvement as they both have on Roshar just seems incredulous. I think the only reason Hoid would hold that knowledge back from Sazed is if the shard was somehow blocking their identity. Both of them knowing it's a shard but not knowing WHICH is much more plausible if it's not a Rosharan shard.

I was thinking more along the lines of "I will decide who is worth protecting" because it fits with the "I am the law" of the Skybreakers.

So I've seen a lot of talk about how Tarvangium is much scarier than Rayse as the vessel of Odium and I largely agree...BUT I don't think it's because the Vessel & Shard's intent are aligned as so many here are positing. The fact that Taravangium had to realign his goals several times from Destroy to Save during his ascension points to this misalignment. I think Taravangium is more dangerous/scary for 2 primary reasons 1) He is less damaged spiritually than Rayse was. He hasn't been through clashes with other shards and he hasn't spent millennia warring with his shard's intent. 2) He has no moral boundaries...none. Most people have some sort of moral boundaries in achieving their goal. If their child is hungry (not starving) they might steal, but they probably won't murder. Taravangium would happily do so. Just throwing this out there!

It seems to me, from what we have so far, that the Heavenly Ones are the most similar in temperament to the Listeners. They have strict rules of engagement and escalation of force. Maybe they're better than individual radiants, maybe worse, but the rules aren't equal contest/equal risk. The rules seem to be Engage in single combat unless threatened by multiple opponents If an enemy is wounded to the point of removing them from the fight, allow them to live. If they're still fighting go for killing blows where possible Engage enemies as close to your own skill level as possible. - Note, this does not mean not engaging if there are weaker opponents, it just means don't single out the weak ones first. Leshwi fighting Kaladin when he's available and then others when he is not is an example. I think we're building up to a split among the Fused where some "Orders," namely the Heavenly Ones, decide to fight Odium, rather than fight FOR Odium.

It was disturbing to me as well, in that I saw much of myself in it. While my path was not violent, I walked for a long while further and further into a depressed darkness, and each step saw me doing something I previously believed I was never capable of. I believed redemption and healing was beyond me. I learned I had to take responsibility for my actions in order to heal, and to DECIDE to become a better man. I see so much of myself in Dalinar that I was brought near to tears by his story, I NEEDED him to be redeemed as I have been and am being. I resonate so much with the Bondsmiths as an order and Dalinar as an individual that, once we've seen all 5 oaths (because I want to make sure I really do understand the order) I'll probably be getting their symbol as a tattoo.

I agree completely, which is why they worked so well for me. The point of Evi's arc in the book was what its reveal did to Dalinar. As he remembered more and more he broke, more and more. The manner of her death was less important than the fact that HE was responsible. I think it had to be something he did in blind rage, all unknowing, because that was what he was becoming, pure rage, with no redeeming qualities, the essence of Odium. He killed his own soldiers in battle because of his carelessness, he almost attacked his brother, whom he idolized, and finally, he kills his wife, because his rage cannot be sated... Man, that's just so intense to me. I don't care about Evi, personally, I care about her in relation to Dalinar. The impact these memories had on Dalinar are difficult to overstate, in my opinion, and his arc was amazing to read.

Unless the minor spren aren't sentient enough to scream. I don't know that that is probable, but it seems like it could be an answer. I definitely think there's something we don't understand about Plate, and that we've been making assumptions. It clearly hasn't just showed up as a result of people reaching the 4th ideal, so there's something going on that the Radiants haven't fulfilled.

My main question to your theory is: Why then did the plate not disappear when the Radiants abandoned their oaths? There is a good reason why the Blades did not, but your theory leaves that question open.

That's actually part of why I think there's some secondary requirement beyond simply reaching the 4th ideal. The Blades came pretty easily, but no one is manifesting Plate consistently, despite some of them being at the 4th Ideal. Obviously I could be way off base.

100% Bondsmiths. The oaths speak to me so powerfully that talking about them makes me emotional.

No shardbearer is ever truly unarmed, but Adolin started the fight. I don't approve of the action; Sadeas should have been tried and killed after being found guilty of treason. Adolin does a LOT that helps his family, but those actions are also right because, for the most part, his family is on the "moral" or "right" side. They're the good guys. Now, if they start being the bad guys and he follows them into it, you've got a case.

I guess Moash is fairly well written as a villain, since I just hate him. I want him to die; I actively root against him. Giving the bridge 4 salute after doing something explicitly against what Kaladin would have wanted, as if expressing personal loyalty to Kaladin, but doing the opposite of what he stood for. A lot of the other bad guys I want to lose, but I don't hate like I hate Moash. I want Mr. T to lose, in most ways. I want Nale to lose. But I find them interesting as characters and I want to see how it is done. Moash I want gone NOW, because I hate him so much.

I definitely see what you're saying, but I still wonder a bit, particularly because none of the main characters manifested plate, despite the fact that Shallan was a level beyond Kaladin at the end of WoR, and despite Jasnah having been a radiant for some time (I assume she's reached the 4th ideal). To me all of the times we saw main characters with "something" about them it was a plate precursor, rather than plate itself. I come back to the skybreaker of the 4th ideal, he probably DID have his plate, just not during training, but it makes me wonder. You're probably right, that plate, like the blades, is simply acquired by achieving a certain ideal, but I still wonder at this point. Edit: To be clear, I understand that reaching a certain ideal is a requirement for Plate, I just wonder if it is Sufficient for Plate.

I was more thinking that something beyond the oaths was required for plate.

I think it is interesting that the 4th oath Skybreaker we see wasn't wearing plate. Wonder if it was because they were just training, or if he didn't have it.

Well, I think part of this is how the bond is formed. Regals have to have a voidspren in their gemheart; it's not like the nahel bond where the spren is separate...At least that's my understanding.

Uses on battlefield: Causing wind Densifying air to the point it can halt physical objects Allowing safe-haven through storms Probably let's them go under water (WoB somewhere on a KR with adhesion being able to fly into space with an air bubble) That's just off the top of my head, I'm not very creative. I bet we see a TON of cool uses from Brandon.

Yeah, that makes sense. I got the impression that you had some knowledge that I didn't have. I think we'll see a bunch, if not all, orders get rank 5 KR before the back 5, but we won't get to know what all the oaths are or what their powers look like/act like/resonances etc. by then.

I see where you're going with that. I think I would have been SUPER dissatisfied, unless promised another book in like 1 year or something. There were too many threads left hanging. I would have been OK with Kaladin's arc ending there for the book, though I think cutting him off at the end of part 4 would have been even more poignant, but not the rest of them. I still felt like things were picking up, and it would have been too abrupt for me, though Sanderson is amazing at denouement, so maybe it wouldn't have felt that way.

My thought is that he somehow put limits on what they could do around the time the Nahel bonds were first forming, or, if not, his shadow's presence with the SF is magnifying what they can do through the Bondsmith's increased powers. I imagine that the original surgebinders (pre first desolation) accessed the surges through a different method than the Nahel bond, since the Oathpact hadn't been started and the spren didn't have the honor blades yet to imitate. This theory is just now moving it's way around my head, so it's not something I've fully fleshed out or anything.

I'm not going to read the whole thread, since I'm just going to respond to you. I like Adolin because he is so accepting of others, of their faults, of their weaknesses. He seems to accept them for who they are, and doesn't expect them to be otherwise. I even think he accepted Sadeas for who he was, it's just that Sadeas was someone who could NEVER have worked with them, so the acceptance of Sadeas AS HE WAS led Adolin to kill him. He didn't even expect Sadeas to be different.His acceptance of Kaladin in part 4, when he failed to save them, nearly brought me to tears. Is he the most interesting character? No, I don't think so, but I LIKE him. I want him to succeed, I want good things for him, because he's so generous and kind and accepting.

The closest I came to crying during OB were at this point, and when Dalinar refuses to let Odium give him a way out of responsibility. Kaladin not being able to move forward at that moment, and the touching acceptance of Syl and Adolin...Man. I'm choking up just thinking about it.