Thorn

So these are fun theories. I'm still of the opinion that Testament is not the one summoned in WoR, and Pattern is there even throughout WoK. Its why her powers have some manifestation much like Kal's do with Syl, prior to him saying even the first ideal. The spren just isn't sentient yet in the physical realm (Pattern becoming so by WoR beginning because her bond has progressed with him). Testament being a deadeye, makes him a deadblade, and not useable or bondable, unless she bonded him like an Adolin/Maya, which would then conflict as a deadblade with Pattern who she already has bonded at this point (expedited bond because of subconscious familiarity with lightweaving and bonding). Pattern wouldn't gain sentience if she wasn't bonded to him. Unless Shallan literally counts as more than one person due to personality disorders (or maybe cognitive shadows??). In essence, Testament was only partly killed because she hid "Formless" as a child, while she can wield Pattern as Radiant, speaking different truths as different personas. But that gets way over complicated to me, unwieldy, and a drag on the story honestly. Deadeyes are Deadblades. Mishram keeping the bond scratched out, and not available, regardless of intent or want between the spren and former bonder. Once it's severed, it's severed so long as Mishram is captive. Kal's bond with Syl isn't the same event either. She's not "killed" in the same sense, not a deadeyes/deadblade. If a moment or two of weakness could break the bond, that would be silly. The bonds thrive and go stronger as they wrestle with and overcome their personal issues toward greater resolve. You see even Syl having her own struggles as she becomes more sentient in the physical realm throughout OB and RoW. Testament moving around Shadesmar with intent, only implies someone has bonded him. Not necessarily Shallan. Him confronting her at Lasting Integrity, only means that at some point he had to recognize her (or be told she was there), not that he was necessarily bonded to her. It's far easier to me to work out the plot with Testament simply being broken and dead since she killed her mother and rejected him, than some other contrived nuance to the bond. To many exceptions to the rule aren't a good thing in my opinion. In any case, I thought while reading RoW that the big reveal was going to be Shallan having previously worked as or was the leader of the Ghostbloods considering that her personas don't always know what the others are doing, even down to Pattern being the spy for Mraize, and especially since she had this hidden "formless". Or, even more unlikely, but would have been unsurprising is that she was a Herald or Voidbringer with a fractured mind, weaving herself a whole new messy childhood.

Well Szeth stabbed him didn't he? That's how T dies. But as you don't immediately fade upon death, his cognitive shadow could still assume the Shard he just slayed the vessel of.

I concur. If he were actually out to save humanity (or the cosmere), he'd lose against Dalinar and consign himself for 1000 years, bound to the system. He would know his Shard is the most dangerous threat to the cosmere and even his own people, and immediately constrain his pride and the Shard. Instead he's calling the other Vessels fools, and plotting how to rule it all. I think Renarin, certainly new the possibility with Szeth coming, Sja-anat involved, as he delivered gems that T would ascend. T is certainly a smarter, more prideful Vessel and therefore far more capable than a withering Rayse. But his pride is also his downfall, and is more likely to give Dalinar an eventual victory. Speaking of which, longterm I wouldn't be surprised if Dalinar ends up with the Odium Shard, as the only one who can temper the "Thrill"/Passions. I don't think we pay enough attention to Cultivation though either. Can she not "cultivate" evil as much as good? Or has Sanderson defined her strictly toward life/good? I think she knows exactly what she intended when T ascends and what he'd be capable of. So what is she plotting?

So, I can't sleep having just finished the book and am trying entirely to figure out what just happened to Wit. I Appreciate all the effort here to unpack it. I took it that Wit was entirely not expecting him to have been different. And in figuring it out, was indirectly attacked before he could do anything. Therefore, as much as I'd like to hope, Wit was prepared, its hard for me to believe that. Though I hope Wit is also smart enough to not put all his memories in one basket. And hopefully not a significant loss of memory. Also, Renarin set the table for Rayse to die, assuming he also then saw T would ascend. So, did Renarin forewarn Wit? Is it all a feint? Now I'm sad I've gotta wait 3 years to find out.

Taravangian is Thanosesque. His intent to save, warped by his pride and lack of humility. He already believes the cosmere is in chaos, ruled by fools, and he can't even see that far yet. Now he's just compounded by the Shard's passion and fury. The good intentions and "selflessness" is relatable because we all like to think that's enough to justify us. But he's nothing more than the monster he's always been.

I do like at least an A-lister for the main villan/s each season. Hopkins would be a great grab. Jason Issacs, Malcovich, Weaving? Let's just get all of them for the men. That guy who plays IT would be solid. Lanfear...Amanda Seyfried? Charlize Theron? Angelina Jolie (probably too old)? Honestly, if one considers the greater the beauty, the greater the crazy scale, this shouldn't be hard to find even a newbie that could pull it off. Matching someone with Rand's age here might be a good move. I've always thought Lanfear was one of the best villianesses ever, including her surprise exit. I thought she was going to be the Nae'blis so to speak originally. Moghieden - Helena Bonham Carter, Maggie Smith...somebody older, craftier, spiderylike Semihrage - Tilda Swinton... I get tortured just seeing her on screen. Not a forsaken, but honestly Kathy Bates could just play several here to save on signings elsewhere. Fain is alluded to throughout the early books and later revealed to be behind much of the mayhem. I don't think it's hard to do the same thing in the tv series. He's introduced as the peddler, which you later find out was responsible for the Trollocs and has been pursuing them since they leave town. The mystery keeps you hooked even in TV. The real fun question to me is how and why Thom was ever there in the first place other than by coincidence? One of the world's best gleemen just happens to be in the far end of Andor in the all but forgotten Two Rivers just for Winternight? The wheel weaves as the wheel wills they say, but I'd bet he was already interested in Moraine. I think it'd be easy to explain that they bump into him at the first inn w/ Nynaeve catching up or at Whitebridge even, and find an excuse for him to get wrapped into things from there, much like Loial does later. Still Season 1. But he doesn't really gain much relationship till he's on the road after Shador Lagoth with Mat and Rand. Thom to me is kinda of like the Ron in Harry Potter, he's primarily just a traveling companion until Cariehen in Book 2, and then again when he joins up with Mat in Book 3. So I think there's lots of ways to integrate him and that's why he's absent where I thought he'd already be cast by now. Tim Curry would be an interesting Thom.

This is interesting. Perhaps I've enjoyed the books so much, I've missed some of the "hate" that some have for the way some of the characters were written, even more recently. I can see how Adolin might come off as fake, but I didn't pick up the lack of sincerity. I actually appreciate Adolin's bravery/accomplishing with less despite his lack of powers that others around him are gaining, inc his younger brother. If anything, the lack of power becoming of an issue is interesting that it hasn't been touched upon much. His pursuit of being the best swordsman/warrior is quickly outdone by a flying farm boy and a siezuring brother. I'm also not sold on Shallan having a poor OB arc. I think that's more of expectations from individual readers (which we're all entitled too). As OB is Dalinar's arc primarily, I don't expect to see Kaladin or Shallan's arcs becoming solidified until maybe book 5. And even then, it may not fully resolve their internal struggles. I also appreciate that Shallan gives us a good bit of time with Wit and if for nothing else, that makes me happy. Cause we can always use more Wit. Jasnah is probably the only frustrating character to me at this point. Her highly educated self is fairly arrogant and lacks the humility to realize she doesn't know much of anything, despite having much of the world expanded for her in OB. For Venli, I just don't relate to her yet, but maybe that'll change down the road. Moash, Taravangian, and Odium are all great forms of evil and antagonists worthy of an epic series to me. Although, I do personally hate anyone that bleeds people out just for deathrattles.

That Henney pick for Lan looks solid at least. I wouldn't be surprised if Thom is held off for a bit. His role early on isn't much other than as a traveling companion (unless I'm forgetting something) until Shador Lagoth. He could be introduced on the road, as I would have thought they'd have had Thom in on the first reading. Can we digitally age Chris Pratt though? I feel like Johnny Karate would make a good gleeman. A serious one of course... Also, I feel like Ben Foster needs to be a Forsaken? Mazrim Taim? Heck, Ben might could pull off Padan Fain.

That would only scare me that Lan will die in the TV version at some point and way to early

This is how I viewed 7 thru 9. Although, the dump of new plot lines start up in Book 6, but Book 6 is highly redeemed by the ending. My 2 major complaints on Jordan's style of writing took hold in the "slog" books, primarily because it became death by POV for me in repetition, while not really progressing the characters in mental awareness in respect for each other. The just keep sounding like they're 17 still. This leads to a lot of women sounding like bickering old hags, and men just being all dummies. Jordan had the tendency to make me literally angry and frustrated. (Not nearly as bad as JK Rowling in book 7 of Harry Potter, nearly threw my phone out the car (audio) while wasting hours of my life listening to Ron and Hermine argue to no end.) By book 10, this starts to decline as all the plot lines start to come to fruition. I think Book 11 shows how well Jordan would have brought everything together himself, but Sanderson writing books 12-14 was like a breath of fresh air. He of course benefits from it being the conclusions, finality, etc of the series, but gone was much of the over repetition and over use of the same tropes. As someone else noted they enjoyed 7-10, more power to you, as this certainly can be subjective to the reader. My recommendation would be definitely read all through book 6. You won't put them down. On books 7 thru 9 at least, if you feel like it's getting sloggy, just skim till you find characters and plot lines you're enjoying. You're not going to miss any major developments. And then you'll probably finish off the rest of the 5 books without putting them down.

You know, for some reason Nic Cage as Elyas seems oddly possible. But in all seriousness, I'm hoping Lan is another A-lister (would make sense along side Pike), and that Sean Bean is either Aginor or Bathamel, just so he gets to die in another fantasy epic.

Within the context of the Cosmere, my impression of Jasnah and her worldview is that power, even creative power (a god) is not in and of itself a 1:1 demand for worship from its creation; and therefore, not a god of a religion that demands worship. Thus, she can acknowledge the reality of their existence as powerful beings (she's an elsecaller, afterall), but it is simply the reality of their world and universe, even if she has greater knowledge of the "God Beyond", which she doesn't. An Almighty in the sense of worship is a derived concept to her, even if derived and requested from Honor or Adonalsium. Perhaps it is better to consider her an atheist in the context of religion, but not as to powerful beings and creation. It's a fantasy world afterall. In this sense, her view on the matter is a clearer picture of the truth of what we also know versus the Vorins who have a limited scope and prefer to accept what may be a derived concept in the Cosmere. However, as with any of us Jasnah still fails as some of her reasoning, especially with her conversation to Taravangian in the Way of Kings. An appeal to innate nature as a "just is" like math (or physics) doesn't really answer the questions. It stumps the Taravangians, which further confirmation biases her worldview. She uses the weak arguments of most others to sustain her worldview as she can't honestly conclude (which she admits to Dalinar later) that her view is definitive. Further, such an appeal can lead to a rebuttal of where does the innate desire to worship then come from as opposed to innate virtues she believes in? (Shallan touches this but appeals to her feelings). How is she deciding what is innate and what is not, other than by Jasnah preference? One other side of this that I find fascinating is Jasnah's demand for proof though. The flaw in this demand isn't that it's a reasonable question on the front end, but the expectation on the back end. No all sovereign, infallible, worship demanding God owes proof to its creation. To submit to the judgment of creation is to void ones godship. An example outside the Cosmere of this is seen when Jesus is tempted by Satan in the desert. Satan demands proof, and Jesus never gives it. To do so, would be submitting to Satan. We probably don't think about that when we demand for proof, but that's the reality and implications of our demand. We want to judge the existence of God, which is antithetical to them being God in the first place. However, a God who demands worship is likely to leave the instructions or interactions. This is something in the Cosmere that we do not have, are not aware of, and may never be told by Brandon when it comes to the God Beyond. Thus, you're free to choose your own path about its ultimate existence or not.

Speaking Truth is imperative to living Truth. The full resolution of internal struggle is not a necessity for personal growth or the Ideal. It's a journey. In many ways, Shallan is the magnifying glass for everyone else. Kaladin irrationally believes he can save/must everyone to the point of depression. Dalinar hides from his past via alcohol. Teft uses drugs to escape his cowardice. They all have masks. They all have lies. Shallan has exponential masks/lies. And with Shallan, she has the greatest power to escape and subvert reality as a Lightweaver. Thus, the Cryptic requires direct confrontation of Truths to bind her to confront reality. She's honestly one of the best written characters by Sanderson, though I can understand and see why some grow frustrated with her. We all want her to have peace of mind, but it's good to remember that it is journey before destination.

I kinda like having Adolin as strong character without being a Radiant, broken or not. I wont' cry if he becomes one, but it's nice having his limitations and yet capabilities as a normal human being. Same with Navani.

How large do you think it can be scaled without distorting too much by just copy/paste?

I know on the sanderson website there are a few maps of places like Roshar, but has anyone come across very large wall maps? Basically, I'm looking for one as I'm doing a steampunk theme in a game room and thought that instead of a regular wall map of earth, something from the Cosmere would be sweet as a large back drop on one of the walls.

Well but empathy clearly isn't shown in his predictions. He kills whomever he needs to using Szeth. He destroys as needed to achieve his ends. There's no empathy there. The soldiers they heal at the end are to be reused and sacrificed as needed, not out of empathy. His predictions can be entirely accurate on his end if they are a reflection of what he wants to do anyway to achieve his ends with the information he was given. Empathy is not understood by the Diagram. And the Diagram gets less accurate the farther he moves away from that day. It gets less accurate the more Radiants become involved esp as radiants do not neglect their empathy, but are practically born on it. He's not overly concerned with the voidbringers or everstorm, because he wants it all to happen. He wants Dalinar dead so he can't stop it. I think King T is either selfishly bent on conquering the world for himself and using the excuse of the voidbringers coming to do it, or he's being manipulated by Odium to being with. Especially in light of some of the other comments if Odium is restricted in some regards, why not use a King T to his advantage then to go where he can not?

Once again, you do not support your final assumption that it can predict people anyway once he reaches Diagram-T. Please show where in the text it shows that.

Well empathy is really being able to sympathize from a personal point of view or experience. As an example, you value your own life and thus would value the sanctity of others. Once again, where is that from the book though to say he doesn't need it at the upper limit of his brain power? How does hitting the upper limit negate the need for empathy? It's not that he doesn't need empathy at the upper limit, it's that he doesn't have it at all. That's the curse of his granted "intelligence", but it thus also makes his predictions fallible. The Diagram is a circular reflection of King T. He was an entire monster when it was generated, and he continues to interpret it as the monster he is and has to be.

Moogle, Wasn't he using the hospitals/patients though at the end of WoK to drain the blood to KILL them and get death rattles? In other words, the compassionate free hospitals were a front to distract from what he was really about. I took it as his days in front of Jasnah when she thought him inept most of the time, but caring were a reflection that he had already been to the Nightwatcher. I get that you argue he's wanting to "help" and that's his motivation. However, I think its his excuse. We are looking at him from HIS point of view at the end of the book. We are seeing his rationale. It's the law that he writes up that reasons to the people its for the "good of the city". No it isn't. He's doing it because he can't control the idiots like he wants too which he clearly is frustrated over. It's for his convenience, his "good". Of course he's going to try and justify his means and make himself look better than he is in reality esp when trying to reason a bunch of below average brains into killing themselves off. Hence why they lock him up on smart days, lest he reveals his nature! He only worships himself. Taravangian worshipped only one god now. it was the man he had been on that day. You define psychopath and then reject it as an apt description, yet his own suggestion to slaughter half the population was an impulsive law he suggested, highly aggressive, and lacked empathy....ON A "SMART" DAY. That clearly fits the definition you provided. If the Diagram had so much information and predictive power, well in advance, why is it interpreted by King T to justify all the mass/power killings when King T could have just used the info to walk over to the Shattered Plains and personally stop the everstorm before it ever had a chance? He could've used Szeth to slaughter the Parshendi leadership that was pro stormform. Why not kill all the slaves rather than his own people? See how stupidly psychotic he is? He went to the Nightwatcher, the Nightwatcher gave him exactly what he wanted. To be a monster. The reason he's still a psychopath even when he's on an average day, is because that's where he is at in the book. It's an average day, and he's still carrying on his ways to slaughter everyone in the way of his goal of control/stability. Does it make him less a psychopath if he's just killing off world leaders instead of half a population? I don't think so. And we can know that's who King T is because he's contrasted against Dalinar, who is also trying to stop the coming desolation, but is attempting to do it without slaughtering as the means to an end. King T tries to kill him off instead.

Where are we given the assurance that Diagram smart level Taravangian is able to be empathetic? Shouldn't he have had no empathy at that point? The information is just information? Why would he gain empathy back all of a sudden at his zenith? I mean this seems to be the case anyway as he's killing off anyone in the name of saving the species. The smart/dumb King T is just following the Diagram the incredibly smart King T drew up. (Yes, they interpret it later, but that only makes it more apparent that the interpretation will be flawed against empathy if it's merely smart King T doing the work) Even if you are predicting responses of those who will protect or rise up, it doesn't mean you are valuing them or including them. Radiants are a nuisance to the Diagram as they are inevitable but uncontrollable and thus unpredictable. The more you try to control/stop them the more stress it creates and thus more of them to the deal with. As prime King T is producing the Diagram, it can't account in its predictions for the Radiants even if it knows they are coming. Thus as they arise the Diagram will be more and more useless. We also see the pride in King T's response that everyone would agree if they'd listen to his brilliance. He's been given knowledge but he lacks wisdom. And so that's a glaring blind spot not only for him but for the Diagram as the farther it moves away from that point in time it was created, the less accurate it will be as it is not a fluid document at all nor is it calculating all the variables like Radiants. King T wouldn't stop a suicide law because his underlying reasons for doing it in the first place is submission and control in relationship to him. That's why I was asking really. You infer he would be "smart" enough to preface/bind it, but his pride is glaring and he makes no suggestion of one time only. The whole point is to have control of the world/population though. With his pride I don't see it as static as he'll just find the next day's population to be just as annoying to him and his goal. (New population still isn't smart enough to listen to his brilliance...) What would stop him from just using the same, a new, or revised law to do it again? How would he ever expect the below average to listen to his reasoning (to dumb), much more so to expect the above average to accept his control via his reasoning (to smart/prideful/arrogant on their own)? Even if it's not a floating point, he's clearly too stupid to notice that won't solve his underlying issue of lack of control/submission. Why else has he been killing off a lot of smart/powerful people around the world through Szeth as well? I think King T's pride and desire for control are a glaring weakness to any intelligence he was given. It will affect the interpretation of the Diagram if not simply reflect the guy's nature who wrote it in the first place. The only accuracy it will continue to achieve is that which King T intends to do anyway. King T to me is the epitome of every self absorbed power hungry thinks he's genius tyrant, when in reality, he's just a psychopath.

Perhaps the better way to say it is that though he is smarter, he isn't necessarily wiser? Rejecting empathy leaves a glaring blind spot, as someone like Kaladin who will defend the weak and even those he doesn't like, entirely throws off the predictions. Thanks for the replies guys. As to the average issue though, in a sense you'd raise the average temporarily, but by definition of the law being average intelligence, you'd only establish a NEW population and average. Thus you'd still have to cut those below it the next day. Average is based on the current living population and would shift with the new population by definition. Plus, on a bad day, he'd have to kill himself... @Kurkistan - sorry to rain on your parade, I failed to look through older threads.

Small spoilers if you haven't read it. So one of the things that I noticed about King T in the book is that when he was discussing why they had to test his IQ and limit what he could govern and change based on that, I found it a bit odd that on one of his better/smarter days he thought everyone below average intelligence should kill themselves. Correct me if I'm wrong on that as I dont' have the book in front of me. However, if that's the case how is that a display of intelligence? The minute you kill everyone below average IQ is the minute you simply establish a new average...the killing wouldn't stop. Made me wonder how accurate his Diagram was at all, or if Sanderson made a poor choice of words. Then again could just be he's displaying the flaws in even T's supposed IQ...much like Nin and Skybreakers enforce the law regardless of whether it is truly righteous and just or not. Certainly seems the Diagram loses accuracy the farther away from the point in which it was written.

Nice to find the official fan forums. Sanderson is one of my favorite authors, and I just finished WoR. In looking up an overall summary just to get my bearings on all the orders after reading the first 2 books, I stumbled into the Cosmere... Wow. Really like that all his worlds are tying in even if in small ways. I've read Elantris, Mistborn trilogy, and Emperor's Soul. (And Steelheart) Looks like I'll have to go back and read Warbreaker from the the way book 2 ended.