Thorn

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10 Bridgeman

About Thorn

  1. Within the context of the Cosmere, my impression of Jasnah and her worldview is that power, even creative power (a god) is not in and of itself a 1:1 demand for worship from its creation; and therefore, not a god of a religion that demands worship. Thus, she can acknowledge the reality of their existence as powerful beings (she's an elsecaller, afterall), but it is simply the reality of their world and universe, even if she has greater knowledge of the "God Beyond", which she doesn't. An Almighty in the sense of worship is a derived concept to her, even if derived and requested from Honor or Adonalsium. Perhaps it is better to consider her an atheist in the context of religion, but not as to powerful beings and creation. It's a fantasy world afterall. In this sense, her view on the matter is a clearer picture of the truth of what we also know versus the Vorins who have a limited scope and prefer to accept what may be a derived concept in the Cosmere. However, as with any of us Jasnah still fails as some of her reasoning, especially with her conversation to Taravangian in the Way of Kings. An appeal to innate nature as a "just is" like math (or physics) doesn't really answer the questions. It stumps the Taravangians, which further confirmation biases her worldview. She uses the weak arguments of most others to sustain her worldview as she can't honestly conclude (which she admits to Dalinar later) that her view is definitive. Further, such an appeal can lead to a rebuttal of where does the innate desire to worship then come from as opposed to innate virtues she believes in? (Shallan touches this but appeals to her feelings). How is she deciding what is innate and what is not, other than by Jasnah preference? One other side of this that I find fascinating is Jasnah's demand for proof though. The flaw in this demand isn't that it's a reasonable question on the front end, but the expectation on the back end. No all sovereign, infallible, worship demanding God owes proof to its creation. To submit to the judgment of creation is to void ones godship. An example outside the Cosmere of this is seen when Jesus is tempted by Satan in the desert. Satan demands proof, and Jesus never gives it. To do so, would be submitting to Satan. We probably don't think about that when we demand for proof, but that's the reality and implications of our demand. We want to judge the existence of God, which is antithetical to them being God in the first place. However, a God who demands worship is likely to leave the instructions or interactions. This is something in the Cosmere that we do not have, are not aware of, and may never be told by Brandon when it comes to the God Beyond. Thus, you're free to choose your own path about its ultimate existence or not.
  2. Speaking Truth is imperative to living Truth. The full resolution of internal struggle is not a necessity for personal growth or the Ideal. It's a journey. In many ways, Shallan is the magnifying glass for everyone else. Kaladin irrationally believes he can save/must everyone to the point of depression. Dalinar hides from his past via alcohol. Teft uses drugs to escape his cowardice. They all have masks. They all have lies. Shallan has exponential masks/lies. And with Shallan, she has the greatest power to escape and subvert reality as a Lightweaver. Thus, the Cryptic requires direct confrontation of Truths to bind her to confront reality. She's honestly one of the best written characters by Sanderson, though I can understand and see why some grow frustrated with her. We all want her to have peace of mind, but it's good to remember that it is journey before destination.
  3. I kinda like having Adolin as strong character without being a Radiant, broken or not. I wont' cry if he becomes one, but it's nice having his limitations and yet capabilities as a normal human being. Same with Navani.
  4. How large do you think it can be scaled without distorting too much by just copy/paste?
  5. I know on the sanderson website there are a few maps of places like Roshar, but has anyone come across very large wall maps? Basically, I'm looking for one as I'm doing a steampunk theme in a game room and thought that instead of a regular wall map of earth, something from the Cosmere would be sweet as a large back drop on one of the walls.
  6. Well but empathy clearly isn't shown in his predictions. He kills whomever he needs to using Szeth. He destroys as needed to achieve his ends. There's no empathy there. The soldiers they heal at the end are to be reused and sacrificed as needed, not out of empathy. His predictions can be entirely accurate on his end if they are a reflection of what he wants to do anyway to achieve his ends with the information he was given. Empathy is not understood by the Diagram. And the Diagram gets less accurate the farther he moves away from that day. It gets less accurate the more Radiants become involved esp as radiants do not neglect their empathy, but are practically born on it. He's not overly concerned with the voidbringers or everstorm, because he wants it all to happen. He wants Dalinar dead so he can't stop it. I think King T is either selfishly bent on conquering the world for himself and using the excuse of the voidbringers coming to do it, or he's being manipulated by Odium to being with. Especially in light of some of the other comments if Odium is restricted in some regards, why not use a King T to his advantage then to go where he can not?
  7. Once again, you do not support your final assumption that it can predict people anyway once he reaches Diagram-T. Please show where in the text it shows that.
  8. Well empathy is really being able to sympathize from a personal point of view or experience. As an example, you value your own life and thus would value the sanctity of others. Once again, where is that from the book though to say he doesn't need it at the upper limit of his brain power? How does hitting the upper limit negate the need for empathy? It's not that he doesn't need empathy at the upper limit, it's that he doesn't have it at all. That's the curse of his granted "intelligence", but it thus also makes his predictions fallible. The Diagram is a circular reflection of King T. He was an entire monster when it was generated, and he continues to interpret it as the monster he is and has to be.
  9. Moogle, Wasn't he using the hospitals/patients though at the end of WoK to drain the blood to KILL them and get death rattles? In other words, the compassionate free hospitals were a front to distract from what he was really about. I took it as his days in front of Jasnah when she thought him inept most of the time, but caring were a reflection that he had already been to the Nightwatcher. I get that you argue he's wanting to "help" and that's his motivation. However, I think its his excuse. We are looking at him from HIS point of view at the end of the book. We are seeing his rationale. It's the law that he writes up that reasons to the people its for the "good of the city". No it isn't. He's doing it because he can't control the idiots like he wants too which he clearly is frustrated over. It's for his convenience, his "good". Of course he's going to try and justify his means and make himself look better than he is in reality esp when trying to reason a bunch of below average brains into killing themselves off. Hence why they lock him up on smart days, lest he reveals his nature! He only worships himself. Taravangian worshipped only one god now. it was the man he had been on that day. You define psychopath and then reject it as an apt description, yet his own suggestion to slaughter half the population was an impulsive law he suggested, highly aggressive, and lacked empathy....ON A "SMART" DAY. That clearly fits the definition you provided. If the Diagram had so much information and predictive power, well in advance, why is it interpreted by King T to justify all the mass/power killings when King T could have just used the info to walk over to the Shattered Plains and personally stop the everstorm before it ever had a chance? He could've used Szeth to slaughter the Parshendi leadership that was pro stormform. Why not kill all the slaves rather than his own people? See how stupidly psychotic he is? He went to the Nightwatcher, the Nightwatcher gave him exactly what he wanted. To be a monster. The reason he's still a psychopath even when he's on an average day, is because that's where he is at in the book. It's an average day, and he's still carrying on his ways to slaughter everyone in the way of his goal of control/stability. Does it make him less a psychopath if he's just killing off world leaders instead of half a population? I don't think so. And we can know that's who King T is because he's contrasted against Dalinar, who is also trying to stop the coming desolation, but is attempting to do it without slaughtering as the means to an end. King T tries to kill him off instead.
  10. Where are we given the assurance that Diagram smart level Taravangian is able to be empathetic? Shouldn't he have had no empathy at that point? The information is just information? Why would he gain empathy back all of a sudden at his zenith? I mean this seems to be the case anyway as he's killing off anyone in the name of saving the species. The smart/dumb King T is just following the Diagram the incredibly smart King T drew up. (Yes, they interpret it later, but that only makes it more apparent that the interpretation will be flawed against empathy if it's merely smart King T doing the work) Even if you are predicting responses of those who will protect or rise up, it doesn't mean you are valuing them or including them. Radiants are a nuisance to the Diagram as they are inevitable but uncontrollable and thus unpredictable. The more you try to control/stop them the more stress it creates and thus more of them to the deal with. As prime King T is producing the Diagram, it can't account in its predictions for the Radiants even if it knows they are coming. Thus as they arise the Diagram will be more and more useless. We also see the pride in King T's response that everyone would agree if they'd listen to his brilliance. He's been given knowledge but he lacks wisdom. And so that's a glaring blind spot not only for him but for the Diagram as the farther it moves away from that point in time it was created, the less accurate it will be as it is not a fluid document at all nor is it calculating all the variables like Radiants. King T wouldn't stop a suicide law because his underlying reasons for doing it in the first place is submission and control in relationship to him. That's why I was asking really. You infer he would be "smart" enough to preface/bind it, but his pride is glaring and he makes no suggestion of one time only. The whole point is to have control of the world/population though. With his pride I don't see it as static as he'll just find the next day's population to be just as annoying to him and his goal. (New population still isn't smart enough to listen to his brilliance...) What would stop him from just using the same, a new, or revised law to do it again? How would he ever expect the below average to listen to his reasoning (to dumb), much more so to expect the above average to accept his control via his reasoning (to smart/prideful/arrogant on their own)? Even if it's not a floating point, he's clearly too stupid to notice that won't solve his underlying issue of lack of control/submission. Why else has he been killing off a lot of smart/powerful people around the world through Szeth as well? I think King T's pride and desire for control are a glaring weakness to any intelligence he was given. It will affect the interpretation of the Diagram if not simply reflect the guy's nature who wrote it in the first place. The only accuracy it will continue to achieve is that which King T intends to do anyway. King T to me is the epitome of every self absorbed power hungry thinks he's genius tyrant, when in reality, he's just a psychopath.
  11. Perhaps the better way to say it is that though he is smarter, he isn't necessarily wiser? Rejecting empathy leaves a glaring blind spot, as someone like Kaladin who will defend the weak and even those he doesn't like, entirely throws off the predictions. Thanks for the replies guys. As to the average issue though, in a sense you'd raise the average temporarily, but by definition of the law being average intelligence, you'd only establish a NEW population and average. Thus you'd still have to cut those below it the next day. Average is based on the current living population and would shift with the new population by definition. Plus, on a bad day, he'd have to kill himself... @Kurkistan - sorry to rain on your parade, I failed to look through older threads.
  12. Small spoilers if you haven't read it. So one of the things that I noticed about King T in the book is that when he was discussing why they had to test his IQ and limit what he could govern and change based on that, I found it a bit odd that on one of his better/smarter days he thought everyone below average intelligence should kill themselves. Correct me if I'm wrong on that as I dont' have the book in front of me. However, if that's the case how is that a display of intelligence? The minute you kill everyone below average IQ is the minute you simply establish a new average...the killing wouldn't stop. Made me wonder how accurate his Diagram was at all, or if Sanderson made a poor choice of words. Then again could just be he's displaying the flaws in even T's supposed IQ...much like Nin and Skybreakers enforce the law regardless of whether it is truly righteous and just or not. Certainly seems the Diagram loses accuracy the farther away from the point in which it was written.
  13. Nice to find the official fan forums. Sanderson is one of my favorite authors, and I just finished WoR. In looking up an overall summary just to get my bearings on all the orders after reading the first 2 books, I stumbled into the Cosmere... Wow. Really like that all his worlds are tying in even if in small ways. I've read Elantris, Mistborn trilogy, and Emperor's Soul. (And Steelheart) Looks like I'll have to go back and read Warbreaker from the the way book 2 ended.