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  1. Fabrial and Singer forms also utilize spren bonds but it has not been confirmed if those systems they utilize are of Honor or not. You're making an assumption; I think there is a decent chance he's right about the purelake fish's powers not being of Honor. Brandon has said that the Old Magic is not a full magic system but it's own weird thing. I believe that the curse/boon system we see is related to her magic system(s) but what we've seen her and the Nightwatcher do is moreso a power than anything else. We don't know at all if it was always micro-organism based. Personally I think there's a pretty good chance you're right but its important to note when you're making assertions.
  2. We almost definitely have seen some other ones in the Greater Rosharan system at least. The disease based Ashynite magic definitely seems to go along the same ideas of "unwanted effect in exchange for wanted effect", read the below:
  3. I love this post, really really great write up Argent. I have a few points to make in reaction to what you lay out here so let me go through them one by one: I'm still in the camp that believes that Cultivation is just as involved with Surgebinding as Honor. While the bond and oaths are integral parts of the magic system, I find that the progression of the bond is just as core of a concept. A radiant isn't able to bind a surge if they haven't cultivated the ideals of the entities attached to that surge within themselves. I also disagree with your point here that the type of spren working within what you believe to be Honor's system doesn't matter because it seems to contradict the point you make with Renarin and Glys. If the original surges are not at least partially of Cultivation, and new Shardic influence (like Odium's) within Surgebinding adds new powers, then why would her Spren not introduce powers other than those seen in the Honorblades? While they are manipulating surges in these examples, I would argue that the Fabrial system is the one that Odium corrupted. Not only do the Fused inhabit the Singer's body using a gemstone, but the fact that their power is limited in comparison to a Surgebinders is something we know is a consequence of accessing surges through mechanical means. Read the below relevant WoB: I'm working under the assumption that their inability to lash multiple times is similar to a Soulcaster's inability to be flexible in what it can transform stuff into here, but I think that's a relatively safe one. Maybe Renarin and Glys are the example of Odium corrupting Surgebinding you're looking for, as it doesn't seem like their powers have any restrictions although I don't think we have anything to compare them to. I agree that Voidbinding was used on Ashyn, and while I like your ideas on Voidbinding here, I also believe that it was a corruption of a system that already existed. There is one quote particularly relevant to this idea: Perhaps people on Ashyn, in a manner similar to what you propose with people forming a bond with Odium in return for power, could also bond Cultivation for a more formal power than what we've seen from her in return for a curse in a way similar to what Dalinar does. Within this model I'm thinking that the Dawnshards (whom I believe to have been the Unmade before they were corrupted) were entities that existed within and were permeated with this esoteric magic system and could bind people in the manner you suggest before Odium's influence turned them into weapons of destruction. Maybe the Nightwatcher is an entity similar to what the Dawnshards used to be. I find it interesting that Lift can sense both the effects of the Unmade as well as the influence of the Nightwather on people and I think it may be indicative of some of what I'm thinking. All this would make the below quote make a lot of sense within your theory, especially with your thoughts on Yelig-nar and Amaram: Very interesting that the author of the poem of Ista chose to use 'bind' instead of 'bond' here. I also think that, within this very speculative model, the Oathpact may be involved. Perhaps Honor worked within the boundaries of the Ashyn magic systems in an extremely intricate way, forming a direct bond with the Heralds (Ashynites) to grant them the boon of locking away the Fused but also cursing them to Damnation. Im just spitballing here but I find all these ideas very interesting, what do you guys think?
  4. It does here, I thought you're comments were based off that, my apologies: This theory was inspired by Calderis' and I discussed these ideas with him before posting so its not by accident that they are similar theories. I agree, "deactivation" of the gemheart could be a possibility within the theory if you mean deactivation as a loss of the gemstone's realmatic functionality entirely, including holding stormlight (which itself is a kind of physical change). They basically wouldn't even be gemhearts at that point in a sense, just hunks of crystal. If you mean deactivation of the gemstones as a loss of the Singer's ability to use their gemstones then I dont agree. In that case they would still hold the value that past Rosharan humans went out of their way to obtain and it just doesn't make sense that all of Rosharan society would suddenly ignore that value to the point of all knowledge of the gemstones being lost. I just dont see another (in Brandons words) "good reason people just don't think that [singers] have a gemheart".
  5. I think I made clear in the first part that I dont believe it was the trapping of Ba-Ado-Mishram that caused the damage to the Singers, just that it was involved (obviously). I think that the line in that relevant gem archive epigraph was a red herring due to the below quote and that Melishi somehow used Ba-Ado-Mishram's Connection to the Singers to destroy them either during or after the imprisonment. Edit: I also want to add that the trapping of an Unmade doesnt seem to be a Bondsmith only power despite what the gem archive says. Its important to remember that they didnt fully understand this process at the time. I agree that it is definitely possible that a Bondsmith is needed but I personally think that quote is a red herring due to what Shallan learns and the wording during that scene: And later during the end of Oathbringer: Im curious as to what about my logic for the disappearance of the Listener gemhearts you disagree with. On top of the evidence I provided in the OC there is a precedent for physical changes being a natural consequence of spiritual ones so it seems pretty within reason.
  6. I did discuss this with @Calderis yesterday and I havent been totally convinced but that might just be me being stubborn. Is there evidence other than the timeline on the gem archives or the below quotes possible implications on the nature of the Sibling's bondsmith that I should be aware of? If not I do have arguments against those pieces of evidence. Even if Melishi wasnt bonded to the Sibling the parts of the theory that involved what exactly was done to the Singers still hold and I do still think that Melishi's actions would have been against his oaths.
  7. Introduction It's just about time for another extra-long Blightsong theory after the latest few waves of new WoB; the nature of the Parshmen and what was done to them has always been one of my favorite mysteries in the series and Oathbringer brought us to the very edge of it. After reviewing some related WoB I'm pretty sure I can fill in at least some of that mystery with some pretty plausible ideas. Let me know what you guys think! Abstract Melishi First lets start off with what we already know. The event that transformed the Singers into what we saw at the beggining of the series took place at the end of a conflict between the last generation of Knights Radiant and a group of Singers lead by the Unmade Ba-Ado-Mishram. Innovation on the side of the Unmade, an ability to Connect to the Parshmen and facilitate forms of power, pushed certain scholar's within the orders of Knights Radiant to devise a before unheard of strategy to defeat the forces of Odium. They planned to trap Ba-Ado-Mishram in a gemstone like the one that Dalinar used to trap Nergaoul in an attempt to break the Connection she had to the Singers and ensure an easy defeat of the enemy forces once their leader and powers were incapacitated. This almost as far as our knowledge goes, but an epigraph in Oathbringer implies that maybe some unintended consequences of this imprisonment is what destroyed the Singer, read it below: While this may be the case, I have become certain that this is a red herring due to the little bit of history from this time frame we do have past the above point, read the below epigraph from both the in-world and real world Words of Radiance: This is interesting not only because there seemed to be a change of plans from simply imprisoning Ba-Ado-Mishram and defeating the Singers in battle, but also because we can say for certain that trapping an Unmade is not a Bondsmith specific power as evidenced by Shallan's view of Re-Shephir's past. If this was not what Melishi did to defeat the Singers then what could he have done to destroy them? Lets take a look at how the Stormfather describes Bondsmith powers to get an understanding of what could have taken place here: The wording here is interesting to me. What Melishi did seems to be the opposite of what the Stormfather is describing, he cut the Connection the Singers have to each other and destroyed an entire people with them. Syl had something very relevant to say about the restoration of the Singers in the below quote: It seems as if whatever Melishi did to destroy the Singers was seriously destructive in nature and I have some ideas on what exactly he did to them realmatically. Nature of the Singers A recent WoB tipped me off as to what exact function of the Singer's was destroyed by Melishi, read it below: It seems as if a Singer's Identity is malleable and that their system of trapping a spren with their gemheart is how they change it. Also interesting to note is that Hemalurgy is also able to do something similar. After thinking about it a bit, I realized we have seen something extremely similar to the Parshmen before using that very system. Read the below WoB: This is pretty much a matching description of what we see with the Singers, only missing the whole magic physical object component... or is it? If you think about it, gemhearts and the Hemalurgic spikes responsible for the Kandra blessings seem to be very similar in nature with one very slight difference, gemhearts are a natural phenomenon resulting from a leak of Investiture from the Spiritual Realm to the Physical one. Read the below WoB and passages to get a quick understanding of Singer gemhearts and their nature: This whole WoB is very interesting to me, particularly the connection to Dragonsteel and that last sentence. First let me touch on the Dragonsteel bit here is a passage from the released sample chapters that details the main character encountering the bones of the Dragonsteel equivalent to the Parshendi while in the caverns of the Shattered Plains: This makes me more certain that gemhearts are more than just gems that allow a singer to transform, I think that they are tied to their other Cognitive abilities as well as the race in this world are also able to communicate telepathically similar to the rhythms. I also find the color similarity between these bones and a gemheart very interesting. For my second point about the above WoB, why would there be an assumption that Singers dont have gemhearts among humans. Wouldnt some physician be able to find it in a Parshmen at some point? This is even more confusing when you consider that this seems to be a lost knowledge, read the below quote from Venli: All of this together leads me to believe that the pieces of a Singer's soul that Melishi ripped away (ones that seems similar to what gives a Kandra's sapience and blessing) are the ones directly tied to the Singer's gemheart and that on top of the physical change wrought to their bodies that made them more like dullform they also had their very gemhearts taken from them like a Kandra losing its second spike. While I cant tell you exactly how Melishi did this all, I can say it did still likely involved Ba-Ado-Mishram seeing as how the Last Legion, Singers that had abandoned their Connection to their gods, were left unaffected. Consequences of Division My emphasis on how similar this all is to Hemalurgy should tell you just how evil what Melishi did to the Parshmen is. The very nature of this act seems to spit in the face of the Bondsmith oaths, leading one to question how his spren managed through this. I'm sure you all know I'm about to suggest the Sibling was involved because of how obvious it is but let me back up this point with a few more WoB pointing towards its involvement: A strain between Melishi and the Sibling's bond also makes sense within the context of the degradation of Urithiru and the Sibling's apparent "withdrawal from men" described in the gem archive. Conclusion So what do you guys think, is there a relationship between what happened to the Singers and their gemhearts? Did Melishi end up harming the sibling in the process? Feel free to poke holes anywhere you see them. Have a good day folks!
  8. Something important to note is that while "surges" were said to be the cause of Ashyn's destruction that is a very broad term used to describe pretty much any magic on Roshar. The power that destroyed Ashyn was likely not the same as what Ishar warned Nale of and wasn't even of a power related to Honor, read the below WoB: Good point, I've thought about it and you're probably right, I skimmed over that part of your last post and had forgot that quote. Perhaps Surgebinding has the same risks as the system previously used to destroy Ashyn. I find it too large a coincidence that both these systems seem to have extreme and disastrous power.
  9. I might've agreed with some of the ideas in this thread pre-Oathbringer but now that we have a better idea of Ishar's state of mind I'm pretty certain that while the later Oaths may contain some greater powers, Ishar simply lied to Nale about either what those powers were or the ramifications those powers could have. Nale has a blind trust in Ishar and believes him to be sane, meaning that Ishar is already deceiving him about at least one (pretty damnation important) thing. Seems much more likely to me that the Radiants posed no such danger and Ishar was simply manipulating Nale to prevent any kind of Radiant power structure from forming.
  10. I have one thing to add here. This effect Shallan has on people around her is something you are right to notice but not because it is an aspect of Shallan's personality that attracted Pattern. We know that this effect is magical in nature, meaning it likely started with her and Pattern's bond, not before. I do think it is interesting to look at this power through the lens of the uncertainty principle as it could pretty neatly tie in the "Law of Attraction" new age thought ideas that seem to exist in this particular order of Knights. I do think you are focusing on the wrong set of ideas though. This seems more to do with Resonances, the nature of both Illumination and Transformation, and how they as powers interact than Shallan's human psyche. What are your thoughts about the above WoB?
  11. horror

    Im curious what you mean by connection here because we know that at least some of these definitely require Connection while a case can certainly be made for all the others. For example we know that Nahel Bonds are, if not a type of Connection itself, at least completely dependent on the Connection between the spren (which are pieces of a Shard's power) and the Radiant. Notice how the Stormfather completely conflates Connection with the Nahel Bond here. The other main ones I see you miss is Allomancy and Feruchemy. You're right that they require a bloodline but this is because the Connection needed to use the magic is hereditary on Scadrial. The below WoB, as well as contextual clues in the books, makes it it quite clear that Connection is definitely at play here. As for Awakening, I am of the opinion that Connection is needed here too. Breaths are literally pieces of Endowment's soul/power. By having one meld with your soul wouldn't you be Connecting yourself to Endowment? Consider that in the context of the below WoB and it makes it pretty clear that by holding even one breath you are being Connected to Endowment.
  12. Good points. I'll agree to disagree with the caveat that the grey skin from the tendrils seems more like the grey skin from Shardblades than the greyish skin of a drab in both severity and blotchiness, so I'm not totally convinced I'm wrong in making that connection. Not to mention the black smoke still present in the effects of both Shardblades and Nightblood.
  13. The reason I disagree with that second statement is rooted firmly in a mistake I see in the first. Nightblood certainly doesn't consume its wielders in the same manner as a Divine Breath consumes its Returned. As seen at the end of Oathbringer, the tendrils Nightblood emits while drawn seem to consume the physical form of Szeth in addition to the stromlight he possessed. The interesting bit about this effect is the grey skin that the consumption left behind, a phenomenon we've only ever seen from Shardblades. If the main aspects of Nightblood's consumption effects that differ from what we've seen on Nalthis can be reasonably traced back to the effects of Shardblades and how they destroy things it makes sense that his consumption of outside investiture and his destructive nature is rooted in the realmatic nature of Shardblades. This is without mentioning the black smoke shown in both the destructive power of Nightblood and that of Shardblades. I've thought about it and I just don't see the same evidence of Ruin's nature being present in Nightblood's consumption effects. The only real connection I see is the point you brought up, that Nightblood is destructive, but that is far from evidence that Ruin is involved in Nightblood's effects. Consider someone as ignorant of the nature of Shardblades as we are of Nightblood, they could just as easily think "There is good evidence that Shardblades hold Ruin's investiture as well as Honor and Cultivation's; they are the most destructive weapons on Roshar, can penetrate souls with metal in a way similar to Hemalurgy, and even leave behind a smoke that is the color associated with Ruin!" Just because we're seeing destructive potential from Nightblood that exceeds our preconceived notion of what would come from Endowment's powers doesn't necessarily mean its Ruin's effect in the same way that Shardblades aren't of Ruin despite their destructive potential that exceeds what we'd expect of Honor and Cultivation. The two phenomenon of Nightblood's consumption effect and a Shardblade's destructive power just seem too tied together for it to be a coincidence. Thoughts?
  14. We recently got a WoB that touches on this subject so I thought I'd post. @Extesian recently got the below WoB on reddit: This definitely leads me to believe that the magic system on Nalthis is what is responsible for the destructive force of Nightblood (not some kind of effect from Ruin's investiture at his inception) while the manner of acquisition is merely an effect him being a Shardblade. We have seen Shardblades penetrate people's spiritual aspects so it makes sense that one made using a magic system that we now know powers itself through any available source would take advantage and consume this pool of investiture it is clearly able to manipulate. This explanation obviously makes some leaps in logic, but much less so than one that involves Ruin's investiture being present at his creation. As for what Brandon meant in that WoB, I'm of the opinion that Nightblood possessing Ruin's investiture is simply from him consuming Scadrian investitute post-creation. What are your guy's thoughts on this topic now that we've gotten this WoB?