Vanavel

Granted, if you don't go with the functions theory, then we are back to the S/N problem.

I'm back! You made some good arguments and I was kind of torn on the S issue because of Kaladin’s encyclopedic memory, so I decided to think it through very thoroughly. As long as I stick to using the cognitive functions model, I still come back to the INFP. In terms of Ss and Ns, I was torn between Si, Se, and Ne. The Si can be seen in Kaladin’s memory (as mentioned above), specifically in his memory of medical facts and the application thereof. As for the Se, it isn’t as strong but it is present in his skill as a warrior and his attention to sensory details. Last, the Ne can be seen in his intuitive understanding of the situations he is in, such as anticipating the ebb and flow of battle. Working on the assumption that he is an F (to be explained shortly) and an I, the options for his personality type are ISFJ (functions Si Fe Ti Ne, consecutively), ISFP (Fi Se Ni Te), and INFP (Fi Ne Si Te). Now, I see Kaladin’s F as very clear: is drives his actions throughout both books. In WoK, for example, he decides based on his feelings when he fights the village boys in front of Laral, volunteers for the army, spends his pay to get as many young boys assigned to his squad as possible, goes after the knight and the shardbearer when fighting for Amaram, decides to help Bridge 4, goes back to rescue Dalinar, etc. In WoR, he tries to make a “logical” decision when he doesn’t report Moash’s plan against the king, but he cannot rest with himself until he makes the supposedly illogical, value-based decision to rescue him. However, Kaladin’s F is not extraverted. He is not particularly sensitive to the feelings of people around him and does not make decisions based on their feelings. Instead, he cares deeply about people, feels strongly about his values, and decides according to what feels right to him. Therefore, one of his top two functions must be Fi. This eliminates ISFJ. Now we are down to ISFP and INFP, so I am stuck between Se and Ne as his auxiliary. Si and Ne were the two strongest contenders to begin with, so I am already predisposed to go with Ne. Still, let’s look at the remaining two functions to confirm that distinction. ISFP leaves us with Ni and Te, and INFP leaves us with Si and Te. The Te is the same either way, so it is down to the Ni and the Si. I really don’t see Ni in Kaladin at all, and Si is clearly evident; therefore, Kaladin is an INFP based on its functions of Fi Ne Si Te. In response to your point about his apparent inability to see the big picture, you are right. He does not see the big picture, and that is why he is an Ne not an Ni. Extraverted functions are focused on the external world and the present moment, so Kaladin can consider lots of possible and innovative next steps but not necessarily seeing the big picture projected into the future or beyond his perspective. Moreover, his Fi is so strong it often overrides what he does know of the big picture. I’m going to sit down and think out Adolin and Dalinar next.

Thank you for the in depth response, Maxal. You're right: consensus was more or less reached on Shallan being an INFJ. I'm actually still waivering a bit on that one because she is so attuned to the external world. INFJs can be pretty oblivious to sensory details (though not to emotional or relational ones, usually). You raise some interesting points about Adolin, but I still have to disagree. The sticking point for me is that Adolin does very, very little planning, which suggests a preference for P over J. His extreme respect for authority could be explained by his personality, but it could also be explained by his culture. I don't know if you have ever lived in a particularly hierarchical culture - say, more so than the US or most Western European countries - but I have. From personal experience, I know that respect for authority is ingrained into everyone, and this would be especially true somewhere as stratified as Kholinar. Granted, within that there is still variation between individuals; however, as a general's son raised in a family that would have emphasized that hierarchy even more, Adolin is conceivably just a product of his culture in that respect. His tidy inclinations might also reflect his military upbringing or his sensitivity to external stimuli (which could fit with Se). I think sometimes we forget that Myers-Briggs types are not about personality in the colloquial sense, but are more about how each person's brain tends to work. That's how you get so much variation within a specific type. I'm pretty convinced, but I do also see your argument for the J and it is entirely possible I am wrong. I am also pretty convinced about Kaladin. I see what you mean about him not seeing the big picture - I distinctly remember Dalinor reprimanding him for this following the duel - but I also think that having an Ne auxiliary function does not necessary mean he would see the big picture. All of his actions are motivated by that Fi, which encompasses his own feelings as well as his personal value system. He specifically values protecting others, which comes out again and again in his efforts to save Bridge 4, etc. As I understand it, Ne is more about seeing what is in front of him and patterns in the external world, and the intense drive of his Fi clouds his view of even what he knows of the bigger picture. Shallan, with her Fe, is able to sacrifice what personally matters to her in order to serve the greater good, i.e. choosing to help Jasnah rather than try to save her family. That is where the difference between the two feeling functions comes out. Anyway, his Ne definitely comes out in battle scenes. He has flashes of intuition about the external situation, such as knowing where a line of soldiers is going to break and intuitively feeling the ebb and flow of battle. This happens first when he is fighting under Amaram and later at the Shattered Plains. He just focuses on his small group each time because that is what matters to him. As for his knowledge being taught, certainly he has been taught! Jasnah, Navani, and Shallan have been taught by their studies, but I think we all agree that they are Ns. Kaladin has been taught by his father and by a few instructors in the army; however, he grasps the ideas and applies them innovatively, intuitively understanding battle tactics much grander than they would have taught a spear-man. Furthermore, he lives in his head a great deal, trying to understand things. A good example of this is when Syl first starts following him and he cannot help but wonder about what type of windspren she is that she would act so oddly. He doesn't even want to wonder because he is trying not to care about anything, but it seems like he cannot help but try to figure out how that fits with his understanding of windspren. The only thing that makes me think he might be an Si is the role his memories play in his life. Nevertheless, a good memory is not limited to an Si, and considering the traumas he has experienced, it would be weird for any type if not to be haunted by memories. In fact, now that I think about it, I see that as an expression of his Fi because it is about his perceived failure to meet that internal standard of saving everyone he comes in contact with. Have I persuaded you?

This may be taking the conversation back a bit, but I just found this forum and I love the idea of typing the characters. So far there seems to have only been a cursory mention of cognitive functions, but I think they could be very helpful. For the sake of anyone who is not familiar with the concept, I'll provide a brief (hopefully enlightening) explanation: Basically, the idea is that every one has "preferred" ways of processing information (perceiving functions) and making decisions (judging functions), called cognitive functions. The perceiving functions have to do with the second letter of a personality type - N or S - while the judging ones are related to the third letter - F or T. In addition, each function is either extroverted or introverted. In this case, extroverted simply means oriented toward the external world and the present moment, and introverted means oriented toward the internal experience and the past, present, and/or future. Each personality type has a dominant function, an auxiliary function, a tertiary function, and an inferior function. The dominant function will match the personality type's I or E and will be a perceiving or judging function based on whether the person is a P or a J. For example, I am an INFJ, so my dominant function is Ni (introverted iNtuition). Meanwhile, the auxiliary function is the opposite orientation (I or E) with the remaining middle letter (thus, mine is Fe or extroverted feeling). The tertiary function is the opposite of the auxiliary (mine is Ti), and the inferior the opposite of the dominant (mine, Se). At any rate, that is my understanding, but I am pretty new to this, so I would love any further insight from more experienced MBTI fans. For a more thorough explanation, http://www.careerplanner.com/8CognitiveFunctions/Cognitive-Functions-Simply-Explained.cfmis a good resource. Okay, so now to typing the Cosmere characters using functions. Jasnah - obviously an INTJ (Ni, Te, Fi, Se). Her Te is extremely strong, but you can tell it is not dominant because she gathers information and tries to make it fit her internal framework ad infinitum. Shallan - Possibly INFJ (Ni, Fe, Ti, Se). Her Se is surprisingly strong (e.g. in her artwork), but that is probably through frequent use and as an exercise of her Ni interests. Her Fe can be seen in her "chameleon" qualities that were highlighted by others and in her pursuit of global good. It probably accounts for a lot of her ability to manipulate and deceive because she picks up so strongly on the feelings of those around her. Kaladin - INFP (Fi, Ne, Si, Te). Kaladin is consumed by his internal feelings (granted this has a lot do do with his depression as well). Moreover, he is strongly motivated to live in keeping with his internal value system: he is at his worst when he is going against it in WoR and at his best every time he chooses to live by it. His Ne can be seen in his ability to see patterns on the battlefield. Even when he seems to be using his S - such as in diagnosing or treating those around him - it is in the context of his N because he is recognizing patterns of symptoms and adhering to the surgical/medical constructs he was taught by his father. Adolin - ESFP. I hardly think this needs explanation. He lives very much in the moment and in the external world, thus Se is his dominant function. His auxiliary is Fi and like Kaladin he has an internalized value system that dictates how he acts. I'm still pondering the others. I am curious what people's thoughts are on characters from other series. Say, Mistborn?

Ha ha! Perfect!

I imagine that there are elements of a lot of these theories that are working together to create his situation. Nevertheless, bschneb's point may have more weight than we would initially think. Alethi society is far more hierarchical than most modern, Western ones, so differences of rank would be much more significant for them. Even in our world where few societies are so stratified anymore, there is a noticeable difference in how people act when they live in a more hierarchical culture. Also, men tend to have fewer deep relationships than women as a general rule (not based on stereotypes, but on data), and he might be a little more toward the end of that spectrum, whether because of his personality or because of his circumstances. Besides, siding with his dad deepened the psychological and social gap between him and those around him, as noted above. Maybe part of why he reached out to Kaladin was because Kaladin was one of the only other men around his age who was also on Dalinar's side.

I had a feeling it might be a hardware issue. I tried updating it and it said it was up to date. Thank you for the recommendation, though! I hadn't thought of the possibility of getting an external wireless adapter!

Mine is pretty boring. I wanted something that had to do with Sanderson's books, was not likely to have been used in any form by someone else, and that had a fairly nice meaning. I looked around on the Coppermind and found "Vanavel" which is a type of flower in Warbreaker, if I recall correctly. I've seen several meanings for my real name, but my favorite is "song of joy". It actually has more meaning that my username!

I don't think all the characters would have to come from the Whedonverse. Chris or Liam Hemsworth would certainly look the part, but I have trouble imagining either of them acting it.

It is also possible I am exacerbating the problem. It just happened again and I skipped straight to the restarting stage (since the other stages haven't yielded any results today), and it connected automatically when it started back up. Of course, it still required restarting work.

I have a PC (a 2-year old Asus laptop) and it has started behaving rather oddly over the past few days. I'll be using the internet and everything seems fine, but suddenly it loses the connection. When I click on the wireless thing at the bottom of the screen, it only shows the network I was connected to and says there is "limited access" or something like that. If I try disconnecting in order to reconnect, it then shows that there are no networks available. I've tried running the troubleshooter, but it can't fix it. I've tried disable and re-enabling the Intel Wireless thingy, but that stops responding as soon as I click either "disable" or "enable". If I end that program through task manager, then the change will have taken place. However, if I then try to re-enable it, it stops responding again. The only thing I have found to be effective is to turn off the computer (and I almost always end out having to manually turn it off), restart it, and run the troubleshooter. Then it says something was turned off, it fixes it, and it works fine until the whole process starts again. I just took a 3-hour online exam and had to restart the computer 2 or 3 times. I have two more exams tomorrow and I'm not sure what else to try or where to take it. Any advice would be appreciated! Oh! And I think the internet connection might last longer if I am using it fairly frequently, but I am not sure if that is the case or it is just random.

Thank you, maxal, for pretty much all your posts on this topic. I have to agree with your general sentiments about Renarin. When I think about it, I like him well enough, though I thought his part in the end of WoR was poorly handled. Still, I do not find him compelling: he may have hidden complexity, but hitherto he doesn't interest me in particular. The end of WoR actually made me like him less because it seemed so abrupt! However, it does make me sad that he does not want to be a scholar. I get that there are cultural elements at play in his feelings, but why should a scholar be worth less than a soldier?! (Except perhaps when the world is about to end in a catastrophic war, I suppose. Sigh.) Anyway, I think he could make great contributions through scholarship if only he could value that side of himself. EDIT: Oh! And one more point of agreement with maxal: I am not excited about a Szeth book. If anyone could write one I'd like, it would be Sanderson, but I'm pretty apprehensive about it.

Excellent point. He clearly is intelligent, but doesn't act that way, and this explanation fits well. At the same time, I don't think he is as intelligent as Shallan or Kaladin; although, perhaps I am being taken in by his act as well! As for Adolin's behavior with women, I think it is a mix. I imagine he has a vague idea of wanting to settle down with the right woman, especially as more and more of his courtships fail. At the same time, he is - or has been - content moving from one shallow relationship to the next for a long time, and he does not understand women. For example, he doesn't even realize that checking out the waitress while on a date is a bad idea! Maybe both of these (ignorance and serial shallow relationships) stem from the lack of healthy marriages in his life to act as role models. His parents were apparently happy, but his mother died years ago and his father never speaks of her anymore. Meanwhile, his aunt and uncle clearly had less than an ideal marriage, at least in Navani's eyes.

I love Nathan Fillion, but I think he might be just a little old for the role of Lightsong. Not that he wouldn't play the role fabulously, of course, but the Returned typically reflect the societal ideal for their sex (and Hollywood tends to glorify youth/looking young) so it makes more sense for him to be younger.

Thanks! Good idea, but I'm still thinking.