Kogiopsis

Well, it's a quote from How To Train Your Dragon, so no. But a broader answer in terms of how you would use / nomenclature in a sentence - the slash construction essentially functions in place of a singular proper noun, referring to the relationship itself*. It's the precursor to the portmanteau ship names we have now - so Kirk/Spock became Spirk (to my great sadness, as they could have called it Spork). Technically, you could say 'lightning/death's unholy offspring'; syntactically it's not as pleasing to read, but it works. I wouldn't do it, because that's not... an actual ship? But you could apply the same thing to actual ships - if you wanted some silly speculation, you could start a thread titled "What might Wayne/Steris kids be like?". (*a side note - I think some people less familiar with shipping lingo see things like portmanteau names as mashing the characters together, when really it's just... a proper name for the relationship between them. For instance, I ship Kalarin - but calling it 'Kalarin' when I talk about it allows me to distinguish between talking about the ship, and just talking about Kaladin and Renarin as characters. It also makes it possible to talk about Kaladin and Renarin's interactions without talking about the ship, because the ship has its own name. Hopefully that makes sense?)

(I swear, after this I will vanish once more into my crystal cave and sleep for another century.) So, here's the thing: I am not really a Sharder, but I have made observations thereof intermittently for several years, and that combined with a tangential discussion in this thread about shipping vs character discussion and how people react to each has... led me to a theory. You can take this with a grain of salt or a heap; heck, you're welcome to collectively ignore this post if you would like. As a member of the more transformative-works-centric part of the fandom, I offer this mostly from the suggestion of making the Shard more friendly to similarly minded people, who will probably find you all before they stumble across the Tumblr rabbit hole. I think some of the problem in the ASK thread, and in other discussions of potential relationships, is a lack of clarity in the purpose of the discussion at all. Let me elaborate. The way I see it, there are... basically three major categories of conversation that come into play: just-for-fun shipping, predicting future relationships, and analysis of relationships as part of characterization. (Obviously, these exist on a spectrum, not sharply delineated groups.) Conflict happens when someone mistakes which type of conversation they are entering. For example: in a ship thread which is focused on predicting future relationships, some things probably won't ever be brought up, because they're just not plausible based on canon so far. But if a just-for-fun shipper sticks their head in and mentions their ship and gets shot down, they may well feel defensive and snap back, and... voila, conflict. Similarly, someone who's not interested in the romantic ~drama of it all but genuinely enjoys character analysis may be annoyed that their contributions get derailed into who might sleep with whom. The solution, it seems to me, would be to clearly outline the intended nature of the discussion in the OP. This sets the intended tone for the rest of the conversation, and gives participants shared expectations/norms from the very beginning, and allows people to engage in different threads with whichever or as many types of discussion as they wish. (I also think 17S as a whole would benefit greatly from some just-for-fun ship positivity threads - let the people who feel strongly about a given pairing talk about it in a positive, sometimes silly way with others. Plus, generating content like headcanons, fic, etc is the best way to get other people invested, in my experience.) ....anyway. Like I said, take it or leave it, but I wanted to throw this out in case it could help. (p.s. for those of you not familiar with fandom shipping subculture, please note that adding a / between character names conventionally connotes a romantic/sexual relationship - hence the slang term 'slash'. so unless you actually want to talk about Adolin/Renarin in that regard... maybe use a + instead?)

I want to clear up a couple of things related to a particular incident, if I may, as I think clarification may be pertinent to the discussion at hand. Feather has already outlined the actual event quite thoroughly, but I want to make two things as clear as possible: 1. I was not and have never been anyone's "attack dog". I have a... strained relationship with this site, and tend to only jump into conversation when pissed enough not to hold my tongue. Feather was telling me about the ASK thread, yes, but... she also knows me well enough that she was largely lobbying against me wading into things. Thing is, as much as I respect her and her very diplomatic approach to things, that decision was already made. 2. As soon as I was aware that I was under moderation for the post in question, I made sure to let Feather know that I was open to whatever decision the mods made amongst themselves, from minor edits to a full-blown ban. I'm mostly active in the Tumblr Cosmere fandom, and I view this account as a 'burner', so to speak - I stick my head in to say what no one else will, and then vanish into the mists for another two years, like a very cantankerous living Brigadoon. (The first time, it was for the purpose of calling out homophobia and making the point that the site can be friendly to queer fans, or to homophobes, but not to both - and much to my relief, things have gotten better. I don't regret it.) But I am well aware that I tend to be more overtly pugnacious than the average Sharder, and that in order to maintain the social peace of the site I might have to be banned. That's fine by me, and the mods are aware of such. All this to say - I don't think my friendship with Feather was as much of a factor in that situation as you suggest in this post. However, it's still relevant; see below. What I get from these two portions of Phineas's post is that the problem is not how the mods handled me, but the fact that that is not always the case with everyone. Which... I think is a reasonable objection, actually. However, it's worth noting that there is a benefit to making a public post in a thread which cannot be replicated in PMs: the reinforcement of overall social norms. That can carry an air of public shaming, depending on how the parties involve behave, but I don't think its value is in question. I do seem to recall a couple of mods (especially Chaos) dropping into the ASK thread to ask people to simmer down, which to me carries an implicit rebuke of all involved, for what that may be worth. (Also, for a nitpicky clarification: it was my understanding of the situation at the time that the person who reported my post objected to one singular line, not the entire post. That was the portion which was reworked after the post was hidden, in response to the reporter's wishes. As far as I know, no further objections were raised, so in the end it was a small issue that could be handled with minimal fuss. I just wanted to point that out, as Dreamstorm's initial description could lead it to sound like a much bigger brouhaha.) All that said - I think one of the most useful options for those who are troubled by the current mod practices would be documentation, going forward. As the mods have mentioned, they won't necessarily know about a problem until someone brings it up, and that includes conscious or unconscious biases among the moderators themselves - it would therefore seem useful to keep a record of what posts you report, who wrote them, what the response was, and which mod was involved (if that information is available). That way, everyone involved would have a concrete basis for discussion and a database from which to brainstorm solutions. And even if you think mods won't remonstrate old-timers or their friends, this way you could 1. test that theory by reporting as you deem necessary and 2. have a record of specific cases of bias if your theory is supported.

While I acknowledge that my dislike is in part personal, the issue of Shallan pretending to be a darkeyes despite fundamentally not understanding what that means is deeper than that. In modern American society it's the equivalent of brown/blackface, or the Rachel Dolezal mess - she's writing over the privilege she comes from and the harm she and people like her have done, and in the process she is causing more harm. (I mention again that the breakdown of Veil started because Shallan - any and all parts of her - failed to comprehend the realities of poverty, because she had never experienced it and only tried it on like a costume. This seems like it might be the beginning of her realizing that Alethi society is, y'know, fundamentally messed up, but she's certainly not given the issue much thought yet.) As for the betrothal - I think you're forgetting the fact that at the time Jasnah arranged the causal, Shallan's primary focus was still finding a way to secure House Davar. A betrothal to a prince, even one she had no guarantees she would even get along with, is a logical strategic option to hold on to. And because the causal is conditional, it's not a certainty; until she meets Adolin, it's just another card in her hand. I mean, the question you posited is a phenomenally stupid thing for him to ask, given that we know he can tell the difference in Shallan's personas even when she's not Lightweaving their appearances, so yeah, I think it absolutely has to do with intelligence. And speaking of which... the idea that Adolin doesn't have the ability to sympathize with Shallan is, frankly, absurd. Everyone putting this argument forward has been conveniently ignoring the fact that, in canon, Adolin is far and away the most emotionally intelligent person in the cast. (Y'all wanna talk about a Kholin who would be more likely to ignore context? Jasnah. Jasnah 'I killed three men because they might have been about to attack me' Kholin is the one I'd bet on reacting poorly.) Adolin doesn't have any reason to disbelieve Shallan. He's not clueless; he knows that other people have different life experiences than his. He may not fully compass the difference between, say, Kaladin's choice in the arena and his own, but notably - even though Kaladin destroyed his chance to duel Sadeas - Adolin is the one who stands by him. Is locking himself in prison a bit of a silly gesture? Yeah. Is it still meaningful? Yes. The assumption that Adolin would 'have trouble fathoming' what Shallan went through only makes sense if you assume that he's oblivious enough to disavow even the possibility of familial abuse. It doesn't have anything to do with his beliefs on family, except maybe for the fact that what Lin and Shallan's mother did to their children violates everything Adolin seems to believe about those relationships. If I heard a loved one shot their parents accidentally, no, I wouldn't be calm. As I said, I'd be horrified that a child was in that situation. I'm not suggesting that Adolin will be impassive and unemotional - I'm suggesting that he won't instantly condemn Shallan without hearing her side of the story. To borrow your phrase, that's what any sane person would do. Personally, I'd be more horrified to learn about what her mother and Lin did. Nothing about her mother's death was cold, nor was it planned. Shroom has addressed this. Also, oh my goodness, Adolin's playing the fop in Kholinar was his role in the information-gathering process. His job as part of the team was to infiltrate the Kholinar nobility and learn about the Heart of the Revel so that they could gain access. He wasn't goofing off; he just wasn't center-stage because that wasn't where he could best contribute. 'Most children' aren't soul-bonded to a magical weapon that takes life almost effortlessly, especially at an age where they're far too young to understand it. I also fundamentally disagree that 'most children would have whimpered and died'; the human survival instinct is much stronger than that, and it is manifest in kids too. Unless you have a psychological study to back up your theory, I'm going to remain extremely skeptical that fighting back wouldn't be a natural response. Shallan just happened to be unnaturally well-armed to defend herself. And again, she didn't need to have the intent to kill - only to harm, which could have simply been a prelude to running away. The Patternblade makes the line between harm and death difficult to walk. Okay, but no one is saying Adolin does react perfectly in any situation. What we're saying is that there is zero reason to believe he would be unsympathetic to Shallan. All three of the lives she's taken do have 'mitigating circumstances': abuse or attempted murder and, in Tyn's case, as far as Shallan knew the actual completed murder of Jasnah. The only one that's less defensible is the plot to steal Jasnah's soulcaster, for which Shallan feels regret and shame; for that matter, she also self-castigates for her parents' deaths. As Grey said, Adolin's compassion and stability are consistent traits. I have no problems with him being 'imperfect', but violating that characterization isn't revealing a flaw, it's retconning. This is Evi's son we're talking about, who loves hugs even though physical affection is frowned upon, who steps in to help a darkeyed prostitute the first time Kaladin sees him, who is a consummate soldier and commander even if, in Dalinar's opinion, he's 'a little too friendly' with the men under his command. You give him too little credit.

Hot diggity, I step away for two hours and the conversation careens. So, I think we've established that we know neither that Adolin addresses Veil differently than Shallan nor that she will definitely tell him about the Ghostbloods. Also - and this is relevant to comments below as well - Adolin isn't stupid. What in the WORLD gives you the idea that he'd ask Shallan if she knows about Veil's activities? There is literally nothing in canon that suggests he's that much of a clueless idiot; in fact, from what we've seen, he has a solid degree of emotional intelligence. He's not book-educated because, hello? Alethi man and not a surgeon? I'm. I'm actually incensed at this, because it's absurd. If you want to argue characterization, don't Flanderize the character to do it. Jeez. I wanna group all of these together, because... yikes? Shallan's mother was trying to kill her. Her father was emotionally abusive, and while we know he doted on Shallan I'd lay money on him being physically abusive towards her brothers. If your significant other confessed to you that they'd had parents like that, that when they were too young to possibly understand their own mother had attempted to murder her, and that they'd used a weapon they barely understood in self-defense, I think it'd be perfectly reasonable to react in horror... at the very idea that a child had ever been in that situation. Shallan killing her mother is more akin to an accidental gun death in the home than anything else (except, you know, for the attempted infanticide that prompted it). That's not something you blame the kid for; that's something you react to with sympathy, because it's a horrific tragedy. And Shallan's father? Not all that different from Adolin killing Sadeas. "Hey, here's this guy who's unpredictable and causes harm to people I love and shows absolutely zero signs of stopping." Lin Davar was off the rails. He murdered his second wife and threatened to kill his son. Shallan - just like Adolin - took action to protect her family as best she could. Harmony help us. I'd accept people not picking up on Shallan's home life being awful after WoK when all we had was the Nan Balat interlude, but after WoR? To ignore context like this? To be so brutally unsympathetic to an abuse victim's circumstances? Ugh. I'm stepping away from this thread before I actually lose my temper.

Teeeeechnically, do we have reason to believe he addresses her as Veil? What we know is that she, as Veil, interacts with him now, which wouldn't have happened before. We know that Adolin recognizes the difference in Shallan's behavior when she switches... but I can't recall him ever calling her Veil in canon. Also, he does still need to acknowledge the fact that she's switching, because weaning herself off of that coping method will take time. It's probably not very comfortable for Adolin, either, since he's concerned for the effect this has on Shallan's mental health and watching your loved ones struggle is rough going. For a lot of people, though, the best thing you can do is be there so they know they can always reach out to you, and that's what I see Adolin doing. So, here's the thing: Shallan-as-Veil telling Adolin about the Ghostbloods is still more than anyone has gotten from her on that front. Even Kaladin, who interacted more with Veil than Adolin ever did, didn't get that. And Shallan knows that Adolin sees her as one person; if Veil tells him she was working with the Ghostbloods, she's actually telling him that Shallan did. Veil in that context is a means of communication, sort of like how some things are easier to say by email than over the phone. (And again, the process of moving away from her alters is going to take time. I wouldn't expect her to go cold-turkey here.) Besides, she was the first person Adolin told about Sadeas. If anyone would be able to hear her secrets without judgement, it's him. I think you and I are sort of on the same page here, actually; this is what I was trying to get at several posts ago. The thing is that Shallan isn't actually a monster. She's a girl with PTSD and a whopping side of depression, but the murders she tears herself apart over were both self-defense or the defense of others. Also, the very fact that she thinks killing two people makes her a monster is pretty blatantly different from young Dalinar, whose conscience managed to gasp a word or two once a year at most. I'm gonna keep coming back to the idea that progression isn't going to be quick and it isn't necessarily going to be linear or simple. Shallan would benefit a lot from talking out her issues, but I don't think that's a necessary prerequisite to marrying Adolin, in part because (as discussed yesterday) I think marrying Adolin represents a step forward in and of itself.

Wellllll first of all, I don't trust a word Mraize says. He manipulates Shallan pretty expertly, and given that "the version of you that serves my purposes is the only Real You" is a pretty classic emotional abuse tactic, I'd set his comment well apart from any 'evidence'. The back cover copy is also suspect, given that it's a subjective in-world text (written by, I believe the going theory is, the Dysian Aimians), and that in WoK Shallan's whole motivation was, in fact, stealing Jasnah's Soulcaster. "A scholar's mantle over a thief's heart" is a fairly literal description of her in that book. The Veil allusion is an interesting one, but not... particularly persuasive, given that Brandon's other work has consistently underscored the fallibility of written records; arguably, all of Rosharan human history is a 'veil', an obscuring story of righteousness laid on top of the true conquest and imperialism. Not familiar with the epigraph you're referring to. Link me? I deeply dislike the idea that Veil is the 'real' Shallan, though, for a few reasons. One is that Shallan has invented a completely different history for Veil, including life experiences related to classism that Shallan really never had - that being the part that directly leads to her breakdown in Kholinar. Two is that Veil lacks a lot of the characteristics which are almost completely positive parts of Shallan's life - scholarship, interest in the natural world, and artistry. With the exception of the drawings influenced by the Unmade, those three traits seem to be where she finds peace most naturally and easily. Veil relaxes by... getting drunk? (Which, okay, alcoholism could very well be a Shallan trait as well, and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if genetic predisposition to addiction ran in her family.) I mean, if I recall correctly, Adolin did walk in on Shallan after she'd passed out drunk on the floor at one point in Part 1. Given that his father has a history of destructive alcoholism, I don't think it's unreasonable that he would want to be the 'designated driver', so to speak, for the woman he loves? That said, he's not perfect at this! It's a learning process, and as far as we've seen Roshar doesn't have therapists to help them along. Heaven knows they could use 'em. Just because Shallan hasn't told him all her secrets yet doesn't mean she won't. The fact that she's considering telling him about the Ghostbloods is more than she's given any other character, including Jasnah, who she's known the longest. Again, I do agree that Shallan and Adolin's relationship happens quickly, and I think they have a lot of ground left to cover. I just feel like they have good odds of actually covering it, and it seems like you do not. RE: the reintegration quote - the part of that scene that stuck with me the most was Lift's comment when she comes across Shallan later, that she's "hugging herself" when Shallan feels she's holding hands with her alters. That almost sounded like they're vehicles through which she's learning to love herself. My buddy, my dude, Shallan hates herself, like... a lot. She acts without much regard for her own survival - she got almost-killed how many times in this book? At least twice in Kholinar alone? - and just picks herself up and carries on without really... dealing with it. Honestly, if she didn't have her brothers to worry about in WoK, I kinda think she'd be suicidal. Of course it would be easier to destroy Shallan. She'd be free of her pain, her responsibilities, her mistakes. Besides, Shallan believes she's a monster - and monsters deserve to be destroyed.

So, I have a question, because that conversation has come up before. Do you read it as a joke? Because I do. Shallan's "If you wanted, I could be practically anyone," sounds like two things to me - one, suggestive humor, insinuating that she can fulfill Adolin's bedroom fantasies; and two, a perhaps-unconscious request for assurance that he doesn't want her because she can be anyone, but because she is uniquely herself. (If you're skeptical of the humorous interpretation, look at the line that precedes that one - "Some men drool over the idea of such debauchery." That's pretty clearly an eyebrow-raised allusion to a foursome.) And... as someone with personal experience of mental illness, Adolin's reactions in that scene are deeply reassuring. Adolin straight-up says that 1) he trusts Shallan implicitly not to cheat on him and 2) that his greatest worry here is Shallan being okay and stable. Their subsequent exchange continues this: Asking for help is hard, especially when what you need help with is letting walls down and being honest* and vulnerable with others. Adolin's absolute steadiness and his firm belief that Shallan, in particular, is worthy of that steadiness - that offers her a lot of reassurance that she's struggling to find internally. (One of the weirdest, but most helpful habits I developed in college, when struggling with depression, was literally asking my friends if they hated me, because sometimes I could not shake the conviction that they did without external evidence. I see something similar going on here with Shallan.) I don't think the conversation would have gone the same way if Adolin had taken her up on the offer to 'be anyone'. And yeah, this might look or feel a little like dependence, but... ideally, shouldn't a partner be supportive? The degree of support necessary is gonna fluctuate over time. Right now, Shallan is struggling and needs to lean on Adolin a little more. Nothing wrong with that, in and of itself. (*oh, hey, a Lightweaver trait! fancy that.)

Apologies for poor phrasing; when I mentioned 'confidence', that was also meant to be in reference to 'with a Shardblade'. THAT SAID: while I think Shallan has done her fair share of brave things, I wouldn't necessarily argue that she is confident about them. She has always struck me much more as the 'fake it till you make it' sort of person - she projects confidence that she doesn't feel, in hopes that she'll be able to find her footing. Sometimes she manages to do so, but I don't think you could argue that Shallan, in and of herself, is a confident person. Bold, perhaps. So, here's the thing about the 'reintegration' hypothesis. First of all, I fundamentally disagree with anything which posits Veil and Radiant as somehow equal or equivalent to Shallan herself; this is one of the things that's gotten under my skin in this thread, when people insist that Veil's attraction to Kaladin should be weighted as strongly as Shallan's to Adolin, because Veil is a subsidiary of Shallan. If a 'reintegration' is necessary, then it needs to come through Shallan Prime, and with a focus on the idea that she can be many things at once: that Shallan can have Veil's cunning and self-assuredness; that Shallan can have Radiant's strength and decorum; that she doesn't have to externalize these traits for them to be real. Veil is different from Shallan, because Veil is Shallan's way of escaping from herself. She hates being herself, as you mentioned several posts ago - but she needs to accept that the things she hates and the things she doesn't can both be part of one person. The more I think about OB, the more I love the parallels between Shallan and Dalinar's arcs. Exhibit A is this Dalinar quote: This is where Shallan gets stuck. Her first whole-room Lightweaving, at the end of WoR, is emblematic of this - at her core, she still sees herself as a terrified, guilty, bereft child. She needs to adjust to the idea that she is not defined by her past, and that she can have been that girl and yet still grow and change. (Orson Scott Card, for all his... other... 'qualities'... wrote a brilliant line in Speaker for the Dead: "Sickness and healing are in every heart. Death and deliverance are in every hand." The trick of being human and moving forward is being able to process those contradictions, I think.) Ahh, again, I should have clarified. Shallan pretty clearly is attracted to both of them* - commitment is what tips the scales, not the entirety of her relationship with Adolin. Could she have cultivated commitment with Kaladin? Entirely possible. I don't think they would have done well together - Shallan's classism and sarcasm-as-defense-mechanism don't really mesh healthily with Kaladin's life experience or the fact that he's an emotional open book. (Further thoughts, pre-OB, here.) Maybe in, like, three more books... but as I described above, I feel like Shallan's choice of Adolin here is a key step forward for her, and I don't really see this issue needing to be revisited for anyone's arc later. (I also, personal ships aside, agree that in canon Kaladin is absolutely not in the right headspace for a relationship. I suspect by the time he is, if ever, his attraction to Shallan will have passed. It happens!) ((*I would argue that she can, absolutely, be taken at her word when she describes Kaladin's appeal as similar to that of a painting. It's entirely possible to find someone attractive, even magnetic, without actually considering them a viable romantic partner. For example: Idris Elba is frickin' stunning, aesthetically, and seems like a truly great guy. I'd love to befriend him, and if I were an artist I would definitely stare at his face, y'know, a lot. But that doesn't mean I'd say yes if he asked me out on a date. Kaladin... seems like, in-world, he'd be the same way - fascinating, hot as hell, with the allure of distance and mystery. That makes him great to moon over or fantasize about, but that's no guarantee of anything else. In fact, another redheaded Sanderson heroine has addressed this before: The sage words of Melody Munns, y'all.)) Hey, I'd love to accept this compliment, but I think you're being a little backhanded to other people in this thread. I know Feather's been in here with solid analytical responses at the absolute least, and I'm very skeptical that there haven't been others. Also, in a thread whose OP started out with "Which of the two ships did you like more in Oathbringer?", this discussion was never gonna be purely predictive. Nor are analytical/English class-style responses the only valid responses. I know shipping is a relatively new concept over here, so perhaps in the future such discussions should be flagged from the start by what kind of response people are seeking.

See, the scene where she first created Radiant seemed, to me, to indicate that there were aspects of her alternate personalities which weren't inherent to Shallan - in Radiant's case, her confidence and comfort with a Shardblade. I'd... also have to reread to confirm this, but I think that's the first time we really see her view her alters explicitly as a means of getting away from herself; in WoR, Veil hadn't developed yet beyond being a tool Shallan used. (In fact, there's a moment in OB where she first perceives a thought as coming from Veil which suggests something similar.) In that case, we'd be looking at OB as the first time Shallan's Lightweaving has progressed far enough to let her leave herself behind and explore the freedom of being someone else. I think you may be on to something with the idea that she outsourced her confidence, etc, but perhaps what that indicates is that it's not going to be a simple this-or-that choice. She may end up having to confront (figuratively or literally via lightweaving) her alters and sort out what she needs/wants and what she doesn't, as part of her continuing process of figuring out who she wants to be. Again, we're back to that active choice thing.

Most of the fic that's out there isn't particularly sexual - I get that this probably wasn't your implication, but there's more to gay romance than sex, and more to shipping as well, for that matter! That said, if the cute stuff holds any appeal, here's my blog's Kalarin tag. The top few posts are a rambling informal modern world/college AU; there's also a few links to now you know me, and I'm not afraid - a post-WoR timeline divergence. TheRangress also wrote make an honest man of me, which I love (I mean, I love all of her fic, generally; she may someday overtake my captaincy). Also, I'm extremely about Recommendations for a couple of reasons. Okay, chiming in here because I have a completely different read on how that works out. Relationships are, fundamentally, about choice. Choosing to commit to someone, and then renewing that choice day in and day out - that's what keeps you going, that's what keeps people together, not just attraction. Attraction is out of your control; commitment is deliberate. So: Shallan chooses Adolin. And that's a big deal for her! Here's the thing that I loved about that scene, actually: Shallan, much like Lift in Edgedancer, has been hesitant to take up agency in her own life. Even when she does things very deliberately and strategically, she often doesn't take explicit responsibility for her own actions, no matter the consequences. The split personalities are a manifestation of this - she becomes Radiant so she isn't responsible for killing her mother, Veil so she doesn't have to acknowledge her work with the Ghostbloods and the betrayal it represents.It's interesting that when she loses Jasnah - and thus, Jasnah's shadow to stand in - she creates Veil, who immediately becomes more proactive than Shallan Prime. She doesn't quite fully commit to any one organization, she hesitates to commit to her own spren... and she doesn't commit to a love interest. (She tried that, a tiny bit, with Kabsal, and that hardly primed her for good relationships.) This is pure speculation, but... I think you could argue that Shallan's attraction to Kaladin manifests, in some small part, as an escape route from committing to Adolin - or at least, that it can be seen that way in retrospect. Sorta like how if you don't feel like going somewhere, suddenly you find reasons to stay home, even if you know you'd have a better time going out. When everything goes horribly wrong in Kholinar, though, Shallan is forced to face the consequences of her action; she is quite literally confronted with the responsibility she bears for the harm she has caused. This is when her fractured personalities start to break down. When she can no longer hide in repressed memories or alternate selves, the only choice left to her is to bear what she's done and carry on. And if that sounds familiar, that's because it's an echo of Dalinar's arc: the solution lies not in forgetting or ignoring, but in acknowledging and striving to be better. The Shallan we see in Parts 4 and 5 is starting to take her first shaky steps down that path. This is why it felt so fitting to me that she ended the book by swearing an oath of commitment to Adolin - because at the beginning of the book, Shallan wouldn't have done that, wouldn't have even come close. Marrying Adolin is an act of responsibility and deliberate choice - and there is a point to be made that she might not really be mature enough for marriage just yet, and I can see the logic in that, and yet - if she can hold on to this relationship, if she can really put in the effort to make it work, that will help her do the same in other aspects of her life. It's a pretty significant first step. She's not done growing, and there will be struggles and backslides along the way, just as we've seen with Kaladin's depression. And it might take her longer to disclose details to Adolin, but I would argue that would only be unfair to him if she had acted on her attraction to Kaladin, and that Shallan has enough problems with self-acceptance to justify approaching that disclosure slowly. Besides, whenever they talk about it, what Adolin is going to learn is... basically the same thing she already told him - that despite Kaladin's Radiant-ness, his physical attractiveness, his brooding intensity and all the rest, Shallan chose Adolin. That's a pretty hefty compliment, when you get right down to it. Okay, this is the first line of argument I've seen that makes the 'Adolin is worse for her mental health' argument make... some sort of sense. I'm not persuaded, per se, because I read Adolin and Shallan's interactions differently - what you see as 'confirmation that Veil and Radiant are different people' I saw as Adolin gently refusing to acknowledge them as equal to the real Shallan. I suspect that interpretation difference is going to continue until SA4, absent new evidence either way. ...anyway, I really didn't intend to get dragged into this actual discussion; I was supposed to just be here for snarky comments. Ah well.

I mean, the 'griping' comment was aimed at Maxal, but if you'd like to be included you may consider yourself so. And as for converting me... you all know the Tumblr fandom is literally 5 years ahead of you on this, right? We've discussed, debated, and decided... and we know how to handle our OTPs not being canon with grace. As Feather said, mine is Kaladin/Renarin, so I go into every book fully expecting my ship not to happen. Y'all wanna talk ship disappointment? Try not being straight. It's a real party sometimes. Since I'm replying anyway, I wanted to respond to this... namely, that Adolin's calm reactions don't indicate a lack of feeling. I love my girlfriend, but if she would be happier with someone else, I would deal with it much as Adolin tries to... because I love her, and I want her to be happy. Mercifully that's not the case, but I don't find it at all unrealistic that deep feeling would be expressed as not pitching a fit - especially when, like Adolin, you basically expect every relationship to collapse anyway. He's probably been bracing for this from Day One.

I mean, you've gotta be aware of the irony of insisting that, because a book was not what you specifically expected, it is evidence of shoddy work in the writing/editing process... especially when your platform for said declaration is the official fan forum for the author. There's criticism and critique, and then there's pages upon pages of griping. Anyway, I'm gonna go back to observing this thread from the nosebleed seats with popcorn in hand. Just wanted to point out that if you're really that unhappy with the book, maybe you should read something you enjoy more instead.

While you weren't the first to bring it up, and I wouldn't suggest that you're obsessed with it, you did continue to defend the idea that sexuality would motivate her career choice. Notably it isn't until later in the thread that you start to emphasize that that is only one possible interpretation of the combination of sexuality + scholarship; prior to that you made statements like "having her living up the life of a scholar simply because she is a lesbian would sort of ruin the whole point", as causation were a foregone conclusion. Recall that Jasnah is not merely an outspoken atheist, but an outspoken atheist who wears and regularly uses a deeply holy object, in open defiance (and to some people's view, disrespect) of the dominant religion of her part of the world. That said - we don't know that Roshar condemns homosexuality, and it shouldn't be assumed that they do (as I've previously argued). There's certainly no reason to assume that homosexual/queer Alethi would face the violent reprisals that people in a lot of Western nations do in the modern day. The only evidence that might actually suggest anything about societal perspectives on sexuality is that we've only seen heterosexual couples on the page, but in that you can't ignore the the narrow focus of the books thus far: the only major character outside of the noble class is Kaladin, who exists in an environment where everyone around him expects to die any day. (moreover Kaladin, as flashbacks have shown us, is oblivious to romantic overtures even when they're directed at him; I doubt he'd correctly identify flirting between other people.) Members of the upper class, particularly politically significant ones like the Kholins, may have other restrictions on their marriages including the expectation of heirs, which makes them less than useful in extrapolating norms. You may be interested to know that I hit my cap on downvotes before this debate began, so clearly I'm not the only one your comments have bothered. That aside - the reason that they do affect people personally is that arguments like yours are regularly used to keep people from being represented in media. It's especially problematic when it comes to bisexuality, as bi people are often criticized both by homophobes and fellow queer people, who treat them as liars for not picking one or the other. As far as the idea of impossibility/improbability goes: this is a fictional world, with a fictional cast of characters deliberately created over a period of years by a human being. Let's not pretend that statistical probability is relevant at all, because this is an entirely artificial system. I'm not going to address your last paragraph, as it's largely irrelevant except for the non-apology at the end. What I will say is this: Ship what you like, argue what ships you like, but remember that shipping is about character dynamics. If you don't think Shallan and Jasnah would be a healthy couple, say that, but making flat statements about what their sexualities supposedly could not be comes off as dismissive at best. As a long-time shipper, I'd say you've understood it perfectly. There is also the fact that Earth-based statistics are irrelevant to most fantasy novels, but the end result of both is the same: there's no place for those numbers in shipping discussions.

If you're not insisting on it, then why do you keep bringing it up as an argument against her being queer? This is especially pronounced given that everything we have seen of Jasnah to date points to her being interested in scholastic pursuits for their own sake; we even saw that mindset from inside her head in the prologue to WoR, where she starts wondering about anthropological questions even as her father is being attacked before her. There is overwhelming evidence that Jasnah is a scholar because she wants and chose to be; moreover, we see her flaunt Vorin tradition flagrantly, in wearing and seeming to use a soulcaster and in openly speaking of her heretical beliefs. There is no reason to believe that, were Jasnah passionate about something, she would let herself be constrained by arbitrary rules against it. Against that body of evidence, yes, your bringing up the idea that she shouldn't be a lesbian because it would detract from the validity of her choices does read as insistence, especially since you've repeated it three times now.