Naerin

To be honest, I hope that Hoid wasn't able to somehow trick or misdirect Todium in this scene. Part of the impact of this scene is that we have never before seen Hoid seriously pressured or frightened or outwitted. He always comes across as more or less in control of whatever situation he's in, and several steps ahead of what anyone else is thinking. And that makes sense. He's an immortal being with who knows how much experience. So of course it's going to be rare that he's genuinely surprised or faced with unexpected setbacks. So seeing him afraid in this scene. Seeing him fooled (at least on the second run-through). That was SO powerful. And it really sold Todium as a serious threat. It made him feel new, distinct, and more dangerous than the previous version of Odium. If Hoid is still one step ahead, the way he seems to be with everyone else (even other Shards, like Harmony), then I'm going to be disappointed and retroactively less invested in Todium as a villain. As for the significance of Hoid's misdirection speech, I imagine he was referring to keeping Rayse's attention on him in some way. From the interaction he expected, it seems like he was counting on Rayse being focused on finding a way to destroy Hoid and beat Dalinar. I'm guessing that he wanted to keep Rayse thinking in those blunt "I will DESTROY you" terms, rather than thinking about potential loopholes or exploits in the contract (which Todium has apparently perceived). I think Hoid included the provision protecting himself in the contract so that Rodium would focus on that, and maybe miss more subtle things about the wording that Todium has picked up on.

Spoilers for the end of Rhythm of War: So, we know there's a contest of champions coming up in the next book. But what do we think that will actually entail? I noticed that nowhere in the "contract" did someone specify that this would be a duel or even a fight in the traditional sense. And we know from Odium's POV that Dalinar has "set himself up to fail" in some way, meaning there is at least some kind of flaw or oversight in the phrasing or intent of this contract. Dalinar, and everyone else, seems to be assuming this will be a fight - two warriors trying to physically kill each other. But what if that's wrong? We know that this is a contest to the death. But what if it's a contest not of fighting prowess but of ideology? I could see the contest being a trial or judgement to the death. What if the "contest" is which champion has ruled more justly on Roshar? At the time of the contest, there will be lands held by Odium, and lands held by Dalinar. There have already been many, many narrative hints that the Singers are, at least in some ways, more just rulers than the humans. It's not clear-cut (mainly given the nature of the Fused eating up sacrificial bodies), but there's at least a debate one could have, right? So maybe the contest is not "can you kill the enemy champion" but rather something like "can you prove you deserve to win, based on your deeds or those of your species." I think this would be a great twist, and it would be thematically appropriate. Think about it. Dalinar and Taravangian's relationship to this point has been marked by ethical debates on the nature of kingship and the responsibilities of power. Their conflict is between ideological frameworks of justice and just rule. What if Odium's champion is also himself, and the contest is some kind of debate over justice in the spiritual realm space that Odium can pull people into? You could do a lot with that idea. Having the spiritual echoes of the dead judge either champion, or spiritually travel between different lands to show the relative justice of each champion's duel, or construct ethical scenarios in the spiritual realm to see how each champion's ethics actually bear out in practice. We already have foreshadowing of this, in my opinion. Kaladin is dragged into a vision of some hateful wind planet at the end of ROW, as Odium is trying to break his spirit and corrupt him or get him to end his own life. Later, Dalinar and the Stormfather pulled Kaladin into a spiritual vision to try to bolster his spirit and convince him to keep fighting. That was most definitely a contest to the death, and I think we're going to see something similar in book 5 with the champions themselves. Personally I see something like that as much more likely that fisticuffs on top of Urithiru, and I think it would be much more satisfying as a climax to the first half of the series, too. AND. I. CANNOT. WAIT. What do you all think?

I liked him for how he represented Kaladin’s struggle. A foe that keeps coming for you, again and again. A foe you can beat once or twice or three times, but which will keep coming back, until it ends you. I saw The Pursuer as kind of an external symbolic manifestation of Kaladin’s depression. Which was why the scene before Kaladin’s rage moment was so satisfying. Because he was basically saying his depression was never going to end him. He would defeat it not by making it vanish, but by fighting and winning EACH TIME it tries to take him down.

I'm in both groups . I think Moash/Vyre is a super interesting concept. A great foil for Kaladin, in that he has given in to the numbness of despair, stops caring because it's just too painful. As opposed to Kaladin. Who. Just. Keeps. Fighting! *fist pump* Also a great parallel to Dalinar, going all "Sure Odium, have my pain" (slightly less inspiring than Dalinar's response...) But I think the execution could have been better. His bonds with Kaladin and the rest of bridge four weren't set up all that well. We were kind of just told in WOR that he and Kaladin had this close bond. We weren't really shown it the way we have been with Teft and Rock, and Lopen, etc... So his subsequent jaunt into villainy, while conceptually interesting, doesn't feel fully earned for the character (at least in my mind - I can certainly understand those who disagree). Mainly because we don't know much about the character besides the very specific beats in his vilification arc. Think about it. Aside from the motivations/experiences directly related to him turning evil, what do we know about him? What are his quirks, his likes and dislikes? What kind of friendship did he have with Teft or Rock or anyone? I think we hate him because of how well developed the characters he betrays are, not because of how well he is developed as a villain. Also, he shows up in ROF wearing an all-black version of the Bridge Four uniform. He supposedly cares so little about life that he goes around doing hard labour for "fun." And yet, HE HAD AN EVIL UNIFORM TAILORED FOR HIM! He had to go up to some poor tailor, show them the old Bridge Four uniform, and say "like this, but evil looking." That detail alone really made it hard for me to buy into him as a credible character, to be honest. Though I guess that does make him a dark mirror of Adolin too...

There are some good counterpoints for Thaidakar being Kelsier in this thread, but personally I think they can be addressed. The main arguments seem to be 1) that the Ghostbloods, as an organization, seem too...well, evil, to be run by Kelsier, and 2) that the age of either Thaidakar or the organization itself doesn't match up with Kelsier's calculated age by this point. I think both points can be resolved with the help of a word of brandon from 2015. ccstat: "If Kelsier (when Vin knew him) were to join one of the Rosharan secret societies, which one would he choose?" Brandon: "He would become part of the Ghostbloods, most likely, and would be in charge of them within a year." So we already have confirmation that Kelsier is aligned ideologically with the Ghostbloods. Remember that Kelsier was actually pretty ruthless, enjoyed power, and even had a bit of a cruel streak. And that was before he started using hemalurgy to turn him into something akin to the Heralds. The Ghostbloods value power and loyalty. That certainly sounds very Survivor-esque, especially if we consider the possibility that the Ghostbloods have some larger purpose. Perhaps surviving against some external threat (like the war Odium hinted at), which would make their apparent ruthlessness a matter of necessity from their perspective. Also, other discrepancies are resolved if we assume that Thaidakar is a title that Kelsier acquired. Just because he's the leader of the Ghostbloods doesn't mean he has to be the founder. Ialai's notebook thought that Thaidakar sounded like a title, similar to Mraize. So if Kelsier joined the Ghostbloods and rose to that title (or maybe assassinated and replaced the previous Thaidakar), that could easily solve the apparent age issues, especially if characters like Kalak aren't aware that Thaidakar is a mantle that passes between people (or aren't aware that Kelsier has replaced the previous person). Hoid, being someone more aware of cosmere doings, would likely have more insight that Roshar-bound Heralds. From the above WOB, we also know that someone can join and then get to a point to be in charge of the Ghostbloods, further supporting this idea. Overall I think it's pretty definitive that Thaidakar is Kelsier. If it's a red herring it's kind of a mean-spirited one. Because there's no other characters that we've been introduced to that would fit with the hints we've been given (Lord of Scars, a cognitive shadow type entity, who Hoid has slapped around in the past). So if it's a red-herring, it would be the equivalent of saying "Ha, stupid fans! There's no connections here at all! It's actually some other random character you've never seen before." That does not feel like Brandon's style at all.

Thanks, I'll definitely check out that Shardcast! Where do you see the narrative validating our squeamishness about Laral/Roshone? All I remember is her talking about how she is content being married to the guy, and to me it seemed positioned as a way of subverting Kaladin's assumptions. Also, the question of agency is a bit tricky there. Did she "choose" to marry for money and security? Who was her guardian at that point? Because it sure seems like Roshone decided she was going to marry his son, and then later decided that she was going to marry him instead. As a girl alone (I don't seem to recall any other family or support structure being explicitly mentioned), being told to marry the lord of that village, I would argue that she can't freely consent. There is a huge power differential in addition to the huge age difference. To my mind that inherently makes the relationship disturbing, and the narrative choice to have her defend it so wholeheartedly feels very weird. I know that this trope is common in regency romance. But nowadays I think many writers are (rightfully) approaching these dynamics more critically. In these books, EVERY arranged marriage turns out to be great. Married off to a God-King with the right to literally execute you for displeasing him? Don't worry, he's actually a super nice and innocent guy. Engaged for political reasons to someone you don't love? Well, it turns out you are actually super compatible once you get to know each other. Married to someone sight-unseen who you've literally never met (who also dies before you meet)? Just so happens he's your dream guy (and also he's still alive actually and you fall for him all over again before even learning his identity). Summoned before an emperor to have him choose from a harem of potential brides? Again, he's super nice, and you fall in love before he selects you unilaterally to be his wife (and also forcibly marries off your promiscuous competition, which is pretty messed up when you think about it). I don't necessarily have a problem with any of these relationships on their (except Laral-Roshone). But collectively they kind of avoid dealing with any of the actual, real-world concerns and issues surrounding arranged marriage and patriarchal power structures. That's a little disappointing, given how much effort Brandon puts into realistically portraying other real-world issues like addiction and mental illness. And I agree, I would love to see the story of how Kaladin's parents met! They seem like such an interesting match.

(Spoilers in this post for relationship pairings throughout the Cosmere and from Aether of Night) So, I'm wondering if anyone else has a slight issue with the general...trend for Sanderson Romances. Most romances in Sanderson novels fall into a very traditional archetype. Previously virginal, inexperienced women who ultimately marry the first man they fall in love with (the one counterexample I can think of is Navani and Dalinar, which I have found really refreshing and awesome). Men who are usually nobility, princes, or rulers of some kind, often with prior relationship experience. Don't get me wrong, I still love these characters, and both the men and women are, in my mind, very well-written. But it's starting to bother me a little that there aren't really any examples of positive romantic/sexual relationships outside of traditional "marriage-track" pairings (the only example I can think of is Wax and Lessie, which...did not end super well). Not just because it lacks variety, but because it indirectly perpetuates purity myths that are pretty a common trope in fantasy and pretty toxic in the real world. There's also a lot of arranged marriages that just seem to conveniently turn out super awesome for the characters involved. Siri and Susebron, Raoden and Sarene, Wax and Steris, Shallan and Adolin, Laral and Roshone (!), arguably Raeth and D'Naa. That's a pretty large percentage of ALL the main-character relationships in the Cosmere. And to be honest it's making me a little uncomfortable, because in the real world arranged marriages (especially between a younger woman and an older, more socially powerful man, as several of these involve) often have a lot of pretty serious problems associated with them. Again, that's not to say I think these relationships are written poorly. Quite the opposite. I absolutely love how some of these relationships are written. It's just the larger pattern that kind of bothers me. To be fair, I feel like there's a deliberate effort in the Stormlight archives to break away from this pattern a little. Navani and Dalinar, as I mentioned, are one of my favourite couples in the series. And there are references to other positive relationships (outside of the traditional marriage archetypes), even if we don't really "see" them in the narrative. But...Laral and Roshone were also paired up in the Stormlight Archives. And I'm sorry, but that relationship is actually pretty disturbing, since it puts a positive spin on a girl being married to a man twice her age who seems to essentially be her guardian. Has anyone had similar thoughts?

We don't actually now where or what the Origin actually is (unless I've missed a WoB on this). Speculation has it that it is far to the East across the Ocean. But this begs the question: Do Rosharans know that the planet is round? I can't actually recall any definitive reference to this. But either way, since we know it is a globe. Far to the East might eventually become the West. We are assuming that Aimia is in fact the farthest thing from the highstorms. What if it is the closest? What if the highstorms actually start there, gathering form and momentum as they head West over the Ocean, before looping back around from the East? We know from real life that storms can gain power and momentum over water, so it could start small and grow over time. Combined with the fact that no one visits Aimia anymore, this could explain the confusion. It would also be a neat way of combining the highstorms with whatever secret they are guarding. The Investiture that the highstorms contain must come from somewhere, after all. Maybe it is a way of dispersing the power of something like the Dawnshards to prevent a dangerous critical mass from being reached. Pure speculation of course but I think it would be a fun twist and a play on perspective if Aimia was actually the Origin.

We haven't really seen Cohesion in action yet, but I think that a combination of Transformation and Cohesion, or perhaps Transformation and Tension would be very interesting. Transformation obviously involves soulcasting, while the other two involve manipulation of the molecular structure of substances. Either combination could allow for a Soulcaster to not only transmute but also shape different elements.

I tend to agree about the powercreep going on in Oathbringer, but I differ slightly on the source. Yes, there are some huge power-ups that occur in Oathbringer, most notably Shallan I think, as has been mentioned (I think Dalinar's battery effect is intended to be read as a one-off power surge, due to having spoken an oath at the time). But for me the most jarring examples happen earlier than the climax, and involve the base-level Stormlight healing for all characters. In The Way of Kings, Szeth's chapters indicate that Stormlight would not heal a limb severed by Shardblades, and that Stormlight, while powerful, does not heal instantly or grant insane amounts of strength (in that first chapter, he is nearly taken out by a single Shardplate punch). These are clear, and frankly necessary limitations. It made Surgebinding a powerful but extremely dynamic magic system, where the practictioner felt supernaturally powerful but never immortal (thus avoiding the Superman effect where conflicts become boring). These limitations were essential to creating that final amazing scene with Kaladin holding the bridge against the Parshendi. We could feel tense for him because we knew that while Stormlight made him fast and strong, he wasn't immortal. It could heal wounds but if he got a sword through the chest (we assumed) he was still a goner. In Words of Radiance this began to change a little. Szeth is portrayed as this unstoppable creature, and it's revealed that for Radiants, Stormlight can heal limbs severed by Shardblades. Still though there seems to be some limitations. For example Kaladin's scars don't heal. This initially appears to be a fairly classic limitation in magical healing systems: namely that old wounds are not susceptible. We later find out that this isn't the case. Stormlight can regrow completely severed limbs! Even squires that haven't bonded spren can do this! (incidentally this suggests that Kaladin's scars are part of how he sees himself) And we go from seeing Stormlight healing minor wounds or speeding the healing process to watching Kaladin regenerate broken legs and feet in seconds. But it is in Oathbringer where it starts to go a little too far in my opinion. Before this, we could maintain the illusion of tension because, despite Stormlight's awesome healing abilities, we assumed that a fatal blow would still put them down. Not so. Shallan literally survives being stabbed through the chest by a sword, and later shot in the head by an arrow. It actually got embedded in her skull, and then seconds later, after getting some help pulling it out (*cringe*) she was fine. I mean, seriously? What does it actually take to kill a Radiant? Decapitation? This is the biggest issue for me, since as long as there is stormlight, the protagonists are basically immortal against the vast majority of enemies. And on top of that they also have absolutely amazing offensive powers. Honestly, Kaladin's fight in the arena in WoR, or at the bridge in WoK, had far more tension than his brief encounters with Fused in this book. Because (since they are not using Shard weapons) we know that even if they get in a lucky hit and spear him through the chest...he'll just walk it off. Thus the only tension becomes running out of Stormlight, and fights become more about resource management than anything else, whereas previously fights were far more about skill, positioning, even luck. We can see the shift in the last two parts of Oathbringer. Where does the tension come from in Shadesmar? Lack of Stormlight. Why do the Radiants seem so overpowered in the final battle? Because now they have lots of Stormlight. How is tension re-introduced at the end? They start to run out of Stormlight. The most intimidating new enemies: the Thunderclasts, and the Unmade-enhanced Amaram, both seem almost trivialized. Renarin is literally crushed by one but then...walks it off. Kaladin has trouble with Amaram, but only seems in danger of really losing right at the end because...he runs out of Stormlight. Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed Oathbringer, but I do agree with some of the concerns being raised about power creep, especially since we are only 3 books into a 10 book arc. And I think the main culprit is the healing potential of Stormlight, which seems a little unbalanced at this point, even before our heroes get freaking Shardplate to protect them!

@sylblade I really hope I'm wrong too!

I see a lot of people arguing that the romantic arc is not really finished, based on some aspects of the wedding scene or based on inconsistencies in Shallan's logic/reactions. I get where you all are coming from, believe me. But I would point out that to my knowledge there has never been a failed marriage depicted in any BS work (between main characters at least; I may have missed something among side characters). Marriage is always used as the closure of the romantic arc. Elantris literally culminates in a wedding, as a way of also showing that there will be a brighter future for the kingdom. Warbreaker starts with an arranged marriage, but the one romantic arc is solely contained within that marriage, and the character arc of the two sisters is resolved by the end as Siri takes on the role of queen for real. The Vin/Elend/Zane...thing, is resolved after Vin kills crazy-not-crazy dude and then immediately marries Elend (like, IIRC, still wounded from the fight), in order to make extra sure that readers understand that killing that corner of the triangle means that she is choosing Elend. The Bands of Morning culminates in a wedding to show that Wax has resolved his issues and is ready to love again. There are "false-start" weddings in two books (and arguably Warbreaker as well) where an initial ceremony is interrupted, but this only serves to parallel the later, real wedding that goes smoothly and resolves the romantic arc. Let's face it, BS uses weddings to close-out romantic arcs. If he decides to do something different with Shallan/Adolin it will literally be a first. I would be thrilled if this happened, because as I've mentioned I don't like how this arc was handled, but I'd be surprised.

So, I know we were all expecting some cosmere crossover to take place in Oathbringer, especially given the ending to WoR when Nightblood appears, but was anyone else surprised by the extent of it? And what are your thoughts on it. Obviously, it was awesome to see Nightblood in action again, and very cool to have Vivenna be such a big part of the story. But does anyone else feel like this was a bit too much? From my understanding, the intention with the Cosmere novels is that the shared universe adds depth, but is not necessary to enjoy the individual stories. I'm not sure that is true with Oathbringer. If you haven't read Warbreaker, I think you are going to be very confused by this books. The invested not-shardblades are literally not explained in the context of the Rorsharan magic system, because they were made using a completely different magic system. I feel like without the Cosmere context, these things just kind of come out of nowhere. Which would be fine...except they are fairly significant parts of the story, in that they interact with the main characters a lot. Is it just me or do the Rorsharan characters act strangely casual about the mysteries Azure presents? Sword that is not an Honorblade and not a Shardblade, defying everything we thought we had figured out about how these things are made? Cool. Oh, it kills differently from a Shardblade, meaning that it might involve some magic other than Surgebinding? No need to follow up on that. You say you aren't a Herald? That's cool. No need to press for who you actually are. What's that? You're implying that you're from another world, upending everything I had previously thought about the nature of reality and how humans came to be on this planet? Neat. Let's carry on. It just seems like the only reason the main characters don't press for more information here is that they can't because the answers relate to other cosmere work that is supposedly kept separate. And that brings me to my main question. Hoid. Why? And what do people feel about his involvement? I know Hoid is an interesting enigma and all, but apparent upgrade from fun easter egg to actual character with real impacts seems to present some basic problems. We know that he is super knowledable about what is going on. He tells Jasnah the truth behind the Recreance before the rest of the characters find out. He basically collects magic systems, and therefore understands it better than anyone else we have seen in these books. And he opposes Odium. He even helps out Shallan actively, so we know he doesn't have some non-intervention philosophy or something. SO WHY ISN'T HE HELPING?! I know what people are going to say: inscrutable plans, behind the scenes work, etc... But why not take some time away from telling stories to write out a few tips for Shallan to pass along to Dalinar and company? Literally ANY information would help. Here's just a few sample titles of handy pamphlets Hoid could have given out: - "A Quick Guide to the Nature of Investiture and Some of the Basic Rules Governing How Shards Work" - "An Idiot's Guide to Opposing Odium: A Few Things Not to Do" - "Cultivation: What's Her Deal and Should you Trust Her?" - "BTW The Heralds are Nuts and Wandering Around" - "Your Slaves Can Totes Become Magical Monster-Warriors. Lolz" - "You're the Voidbringers. Ha!" - "Odium Wants These Perfect Gem Things: Here's Why. Maybe Hide 'Em If Ya Got 'Em" These are all things we know he knows, and there is no logical reason why he should provide some information that would both help them and further his own designs. He obviously has no qualms influencing the conflict or even helping out. He actively schemed to help Shallan infiltrate the palace in Kholinar, and apparently told Jasnah about the Voidbringers and who knows what else. The problem with this character is that he would be just so damnation USEFUL if he ever did anything. The whole enigmatic thing works fine if he only has a cameo here and there, with mysterious purposes. But when he is showing up for decent stretches of time and clearly offering aid to the protagonists, it starts to be a problem. I get that he is worried about revealing himself to Odium, but just writing out some advice or lore would not put him at any added risk and could have SERIOUSLY aided those fighting Odium at multiple points, and still could. From a narrative standpoint, Hoid's competency is a problem. The more he is actually involved in a story the stranger it becomes when he doesn't actually DO more or have a larger impact on events.It is strange from a worldbuilding perspective when we have these ancient conflicts playing out, epic figures like the Heralds who have existed for thousands upon thousands of years, Fused that have fought them again and again in an endless cycle....and then this wisecracking worldhopper older than any of them who can't die, knows basically everything, has basically every magic power, is apparently on the side of our heroes, and yet only parcels out his help/knowledge in small, mostly insubstantial increments. It kind of undercuts everything else that is going on. And I guess I'm just wondering if others agree that we are nearing a tipping point with this. How much Hoid is too much? At what point does his inclusion cheapen the efforts of the actual main characters and disrupt the tension of the conflicts playing out (since this character is a constant reminder that a game is being played on a whole other level off-stage)?

Completely agree. I'm a big fan of Sanderson's work, and one of the things I love is that he writes a lot of great and varied female protagonists, which is sadly STILL something of a rarity in the genre. But we've now had Elantris, Warbreaker, Shadows of Self, Bands of Morning, Words of Radiance, and now Oathbringer where the success of arranged marriage is actually a major plot point. And yeah, I'm not a female reader, but as a feminist this is starting to bother me. The whole Laral parable in particular seemed a little off. That exchange got almost as much focus as Kaladin learning he had a brother! Seriously? Why was it important to emphasize that she was just peachy marrying an old man (someone who by rights is basically a murderer)?! The more I think about it the more it irritates me to be honest. A related issue is how female many characters end up "settling down" with literally the first person they have ever been in a relationship with, even when it is not actually an arranged marriage. Siri and Susebron. Sarene and Raoden. Vin and Elend. Laral and Lord Piece-of-rust. Shallan and Adolin. Each one of these is essentially a Disney princess storyline, where the romantically naive and virginal young girl marries royalty. I actually cannot think of a single female protagonist's love interest (meaning married or explicitly in a romantic relationship by the end) in the cosmere books that is not a nobleman, prince, or god-king... But back to Oathbringer. The romances here bother me because they seem to more blatantly peddle the whole arranged marriage = good trope, in a way that feels a little disingenuous. The Shallan/Kaladin/Adolin dynamic is set up as the classic love triangle. You've got the (again romantically naive, virginal) young woman choosing between the passionate, dangerous, "bad-boy" option, and the loving, romantic, "safe" option. This is clearly set up by the fact that Veil, Shallan's "street" persona with "terrible taste in men" keeps focusing on Kaladin and his wildness/passion. Adolin is described as the guy who "knows the real her" and always makes her feel safe. Classic trope. Except...that makes absolutely zero sense here. How is Kaladin the "dangerous" option? His biggest character flaw (after "getting over" his completely rational hatred of an oppressive class structure) is literally not being able to stop himself from trying to protect everybody! That and he is grumpy (mostly as the result of, you know, clearly battling chronic depression). He is the only character of the main protagonists to have a serious moral crisis about killing the Singers BEFORE it is revealed that, whoops, humans are the Voidbringers after all. Adolin, the "nice guy," has killed Parshendi without remorse for years, and still doesn't seem to have much of a problem with it in this book. But still we have this repeated reference to Kaladin's "passion" which is obviously meant to parallel the reveal that Odium is the god of Passions, and sets Kaladin up metaphorically as the "dangerous" choice in the love triangle, when in fact Adolin almost certainly has a MUCH higher body count and seems to feel less bad about it too. He also passionately murders Sadeas basically right after Kaladin makes a vow to protect people according to what is right and not according to his passions. And aside from the amount of murder that each guy has done, we also know that Adolin has courted a comically large number of women in the warcamps, and it is implied that at least a few of those relationship ended because of him essentially cheating on the woman (or not treating them very well in one way or another). This is written off as him just not having found the right person yet. Kaladin, meanwhile, is implied to have been in exactly one relationship, which ended because she moved away and he felt it was his duty to stay in the army and protect people. My point is not that Shallan should end up with Kaladin. I actually think it would have been awesome if the three of them were just close friends. I think this would have been much more in character for Shallan, frankly. My point is just that the triangle was written in such a way that there needed to be an excuse for why Adolin, the arranged spouse, was the "right" or "safe" choice. In other words, there couldn't be two viable choices that Shallan was legitimately torn between. One (Kaladin) had to be artificially presented as the "wrong" choice based in Veil's "horrible taste in men." In essence, it robs Shallan of agency because it frames it as though there is only one "genuine" choice for her. The reason given for her not to choose Kaladin could frankly apply equally well if not more so to Adolin. But this is ignored in favour of what is more or less the classic Disney princess ending. I'll point out again that I love the actual characters involved. I just feel like in this situation they were forced into romantic archetypes and tropes in which they really, really didn't fit. And it does seem like this was done to fit into a broader trend that, as @firegazer said, is a little bit troubling.

So, I found this on another thread and thought I'd post it here since it seems relevant. Notice that he's not saying the Surges are an Honor thing. The bond (specifically the nahel bond for the Radiants) is the Honor thing, because that is how they access those Surges. My main point was just that Voidbinding could involve the same basic Surges as Surgebinding, but filtered through Odium's fusions of voidspren and Listeners, producing slightly (or majorly) distorted effects. I'm not saying this is the case necessarily. As I mentioned at the beginning of the post we don't have enough information yet. Voidbinding could be a completely new set of effects, working off of entirely different principles. But judging from WoB and from what we saw on Scadrial, it doesn't have to work like that. You can have an opposing magic system in the cosmere that accesses the same underlying powers/principles in a different way. And the fact that we have seen Voidbringers essentially using Lashing like Windrunners would supports this theory.

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine I understand where you are coming from, but the division between emotional and elemental spren in that conversation is very different from dividing the Surges into emotions and natural forces. We can see different emotional spren: Honorspren, fearspren, gloryspren, etc... And we can see different elemental spren: windspren, flamespren, lifespren, etc... But these do not correspond to specific surges. For example, Honorspren (a spren of emotion) form the nahel bond to make Windrunners, who get access to TWO Surges: Adhesion and Gravitation. Furthermore, honorspren don't correspond specifically to either one of those. When Kaladin is first experimenting with Adhesion, he can observe tiny "bindspren" gathered around the stormlight holding the rocks to the wall. Aside from that, every Order has two Surges and one bond, making any direct association of spren to Surge impossible. Finally, your breakdown of the different Surges is pure speculation. Adhesion is described as the Surge of pressure and vaccuum. Division is described as the Surge of destruction and decay. Abrasion is the surge of friction. Tension we haven't seen in action (well, that's debatable, as I think we see the effects in Dalinar's flashbacks, where he mysteriously keeps bending things) but in either case all of these are physical forces. We have seen them in action. Yeah, maybe you could draw metaphoric parallels to different emotions, but you can do that with ANY of the Surges.

Definitely agree with @Calderis on this. Fused is obviously a synonym of "bonded," and just linguistically requires two distinct subjects to be coherent. Something can't be fused with nothing. If anything, this supports the idea of a parasitic bond, because there are two original entities, but one has dominated the other. The word "fused" also connotes some degree of violence, as well as irreversibility, which "bonded" does not. This would fit thematically with the difference between Honorbonds and Odiumbonds (for lack of better terms). However, "bond" on its own is value-neutral (see below). It makes sense to me that there can be multiple forms of cosmere-bonds, as @Confused called them: symbiotic bonds, and parasitic bonds (and probably a whole host of other possibilities). What basis do we have for suggesting that Realmatically-speaking, a "bond" has to be a mutally beneficial thing? I'd also point out that Odium as an Intent does not preclude bonding or Connection. I mean, you can interpret it that way for sure. But you can also interpret hatred as a unifying (if destructive) force. Historically, one of the most common ways of unifying a nation is to use a common enemy or scapegoat. It is a twisted, awful kind of unity, but it is still a bond. "Bond" is not an inherently good or positive force. I think we are falling into the trap of assuming that Honor and Odium are polar opposites, like Preservation and Ruin. Thus, because Honor is all about bonds, Odium has to be about the breaking of bonds. But while the Shards themselves were opposed to one another (in the sense that they fought), it does not necessarily follow that their Intents are opposed. After all, Odium went after Ambition, Devotion, and Domination before taking out Honor. And it would be difficult to argue that Odium as an Intent was opposed to all of those (Domination and Ambition, in fact, seem like pretty good fits). All of this is a long way of saying that I don't think there is necessarily a contradiction in Odium's powers being able to forge bonds and Connections. I think insisting that there is something weird or impossible about that is based on the assumption that Odium = evil/destruction, when in fact I think the Shardic Intent is more complex than that (and therefore scarier and more interesting as well).

[Spoilers for Mistborn series further on] So, there's been a lot of discussion about Voidbinding, and how exactly it works as a distinct magic system from Surgebinding. And with our look at the early chapters of Oathbringer, there's questions floating around as to why the Fused apparently have access to at least some of the same Surges (specifically, when Fused followed Kaladin into the sky, presumably using Lashing). Now, I'm not claiming to fully grasp how Voidbinding likely works (we just don't have enough information yet) but I would like to propose that we should consider Voidbinding by looking at another situation where we saw distinct magic systems on a Shardworld with more than one opposing Shard. On Scadrial, we have Preservation and Ruin, each of which has a specific magic systems associated with them: Allomancy for Preservation, Hemallurgy for Ruin. Now the important thing here is that while these are two entirely separate magic systems, they both deal with the same powers. Hemallurgy does not add new metals or new abilities (I'll get to Atium in a minute, don't worry). Rather, it provides a new way of accessing the same abilities. Effects like steelpushing, or emotional allomancy, these are not the magic system. The actual system of Allomancy is accessing Investiture through specific metals used as catalysts. The system of Hemallurgy is accessing Investiture through ripping chunks of Spiritwebs off of living beings and grafting them onto another living thing (well, I'm assuming they have to be living; not sure if that is actually confirmed). Atium was an instance of Preservation incorporating Ruin's body/power into his own magic system. It is suggested in The Hero of Ages that Preservation did this specifically to create a way for Allomancers to exist who could burn away Ruin's body/power, preventing him from accessing it for a time, as they did during the climax in a truly awesome scene. So what does this mean for Voidbinding? Well it suggests to me that the underlying Surges might be more or less the same. Honor's magic system involves accessing Surges through the nahel bond (or via the Honorblades, which the nahel bond is imitating). Odium's magic system seems to involve accessing Surges through a transformation, a kind of parasitic bond that takes over the Listeners, rather than a symbiotic bond between spren and humans, in which both get something from the other and must work in harmony. So basically, while there may be differences in how the Surges manifest and are utilized (producing variation on effects and appearance) the real difference in magic systems could likely be in how they are accessed, the kind of bond (symbiotic vs parasitic) that facilitates and shapes the use of Investiture. And just like Hemallurgy changed the underlying effects based on its associated Intent (a net loss in the Investiture and powers transfered), so too does Voidbinding subtly warp how the Surges are expressed/used according to its associated Intent. For example, the Fused seem to utilize Lashings but fuel it with something other than stormlight. The stormform Fused and their red lightning could be using a Surge we haven't see much of yet; but it could also be a strange, twisted form of Adhesion (pressure and vaccuum) given how lightning works and given the apparent versatility of Surges as seen in Kaladin's (presumed) use of it to fight the highstorm. Soulcasting might differ more dramatically, using different base Essences to produce apparently quite different effects (Midnight Essence, for example) that are in reality still at their core the Surge of Transformation. You would end up with magic systems that on the surface appear to produce some different effects, but they would both still be based in the ten Surges we are already familiar with. The physical transformations of the Listeners also add depth to the differences without changing the underlying mechanics. It's of course still possible that Voidbinding involves a completely new set of powers, but based on what we've already seen and the way that the magic systems interacted on Scadrial, I think that is less likely than two magic systems with different methods of accessing the same basic set of Surges.

Aside from not being aware of any evidence to support this, as @BlackYeti has mentioned, I don't really follow the reasoning. What are the "surges of emotion"? ALL of them are natural forces. That's kind of the point. By your logic, if Bondsmiths uses two "surges of emotion," then that means that Adhesion and Tension are both...emotions? Or emotion-based? I'm sorry but I don't see it. Each of the surges refers to specific natural forces.

The first Ideal was the same for every order, so in fact we have strong evidence against the idea that any of the orders would be okay with the ends justifying the means. If anything, this could explain why the Skybreakers are the only ones still around. Their ideology seems to be able to interpret the first Ideal differently, judging from the actions of a certain figure. Rather than assuming they are representative of a large diversity in this central philosophy among the orders, the fact that they are the only ones left could indicate that they are the exception, the only ones who found a way to live with whatever secret it was that destroyed the others.

@Fifth of Daybreak You're right, he could definitely be refering to something specific like the sphere. The language is ambiguous enough to interpret it that way for sure. But keep in mind that grammatically one can certainly "hold" something intangible. Think about how we refer to people "holding/keeping secrets close" or "holding onto their anger" and similar phrases. And I agree also that it would be pretty harsh to learn that your order was responsible for basically lobotomizing and entire species. I could 100% believe that such a revelation could absolutely destroy the original Knights Radiant. I just don't buy that this would "destroy" the currently emerging Knights, who have zero direct connection to that order from so long ago. I mean, North Americans like myself live with the knowledge that this land was acquired through genocide, and the average person lives with that just fine. Genocide, Slavery, unspeakable attrocities are a part of many cultural legacies, and it does not destroy the descendants. If anything it is often very difficult to convince said descendants that they are in any way responsible, or to even feel bad about it. At most, confirmation that the Knights back in the day actually were awful (as most of Roshar already believes anyway), or at least made some terrible, terrible mistake/decision, would probably just inspire the new Knights to be better, do things differently. Aside from maybe Dalinar, none of them are all that invested in how the Knights used to be, so knowledge of past misdeeds (understatement) probably wouldn't affect them all that much; and there is no specific reason to think that would be different for the other emerging Radiants that we haven't yet seen. Keep in mind this is just me quibbling however. I still think it's a good theory. And the argument that the Radiants were responsible for what happened to the Listeners seems pretty solid to me; I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is revealed to be true.

The idea that the fall of the Knights Radiant was linked to the Listeners is a very interesting one. It also makes a lot of thematic sense. If this theory is correct, the Knights fought the Voidbringers but eventually did so in a way that broke their own ideals. Perhaps as you suggest the Shattering was the result of a devestating attack that not only caused collateral damage but also broke the very minds of their enemies, allowing them to be enslaved. Ultimately this could have been a very effective strategy, but it betrays the core principles of the Knights. Something that I think supports your theory is Kaladin's recent revelation that he and Syl might not have morals that directly align. And she in general seems less concerned with just killing the Listeners. She was horrified watching humans be slaughtered by Parshendi but seemed almost euphoric as Kaladin killed them (though later claims the violence hurt her). It's possible the spren of the Knights Radiant either supported or facilitated the breaking/enslavement of the Listeners, and feeling betrayed by their own spren the Knights decided to abandon them. I'll point out however that there is an issue with this being the "wicked thing of eminence." In the deciphered Pattern 15 epigraph, we learn that Taravangian demands: "Hold the secret that broke the Knights Radiant. You may need it to destroy the new orders when they return." If the wicked thing was an action taken by the former Knights Radiant, there is no logical reason why this would destroy the new orders as well. It would be like learning that a distant ancestor had committed some unforgiveable atrocities. It would suck, and probably be very demoralizing, but I don't see how it could possibly "destroy" the new order. It seems to me that the secret needs to be something that would still be relevant, that would apply equally to the new order. This implies that the secret must be something about the nature of the Knights Radiant themselves, something about their powers or their bond.

That's definitely a good point. I agree that it's not as simple as saying the Knights Radiant are the cause of the Desolations or anything like that. But from WoB we know that the Heralds being on Roshar for too long somehow triggers the Desolations. We also know that the nahel bond was meant to inimitate the Honorblades. It's not too big a stretch to think that in imitating one aspect of what Honor did, the spren inadvertently imitated other aspects. So perhaps the large conentration of Knights Radiant eventually began to mimic, in some way, the effects of the Heralds being on Roshar, exacerbating the cycle in some way. Granted I'm not sure how this would work Realmatically. We don't know enough about the actual mechanics of the Oathpact (though I've speculated elsewhere). I just think it would be an interesting fit thematically if that was the case. And it would be more likely to destroy the Knights than other possibilities for the cause of the Recreance.

It's also entirely possible that the scene was just written in a way where it cut off at the natural dramatic moment before showing Szeth's reaction, if any. That's interesting about a "Realmatic line" though. I hadn't really considered the mechanics of the Nightblood reaction as it were, and Szeth certainly has been "broken" in a number of ways recently (and we know that "breaking" can have a variety of Realmatic consequences/effects), both metaphorical and literal, so his experiences might certainly be the real factor there.

So this is just an open question, to see if anyone has theories or knows of WoB that pertain to this. It's been bugging me for a while now how, for lack of a better term, special the Kholins seem to be. To my knowledge, becoming a Knight Radiant is not a matter of genetics (again, unless there's a WoB somewhere about this). This makes sense given how the magic system is essentially sentient; the spren choose the humans they bond with, and I don't think there has been any mention of them being limited by or drawn to different bloodlines. So why the Kholin's??? Dalinar is a Bondsmith, Renarin is a Truthwatcher, Jasnah is an Elsecaller. Elhokar describes seeing Cryptics in WoK (and keeps making obvious references to searching for the pattern of how things work, in both books - it is actually a defining, and very whiny, character trait), implying that he at least has the potenital to be a Lightweaver (maybe he is or was on some kind of shortlist of candidates :P). Beyond that, before Dalinar was chosen by the Stormfather to receive Honor's video diary, it is heavily implied that it was shown to Gavilar first. It is mentioned that he told Taravangian just before his death that he had visions about the Almighty and a storm. So yeah, that's a lot! Of the six Kholin's we've seen in the books (not counting Navani, since she is Kholin by - double! - marriage), five are either Knights Radiant or in some way special. No real theory on my part yet, still thinking it over, but it strikes me as very odd and I'm wondering if anyone has a theory or WoB to help shed light on this.