DeployParachute

Agreed, and it has been part of my frustration over his character. He has no journey of his own, his role in the narrative has always been to facilitate the journeys of other characters. Shallan, Dalinar, Kaladin, Renarin, and now non-POV characters like Maya. All of these characters use Adolin as a fulcrum upon which to look inward and turn their perspectives around, or as a foundational stone to anchor themselves to so that they can confront their own issues or problems. I guess I just had hopes that this time, this book, Brandon would present Adolin in a way that would allow me to see him as more than just an instrument through which Brandon explores other characters, or to move plot forward. By the end of this part, Adolin to me has remained Brandon's tool. A well liked, feel good tool, but one that ultimately doesn't fail anybody, us readers included.

Brandon wrote a very specific kind of relationship between Adolin and Maya, from which you were able to derive a deep appreciation and sense of gratitude from for it's representation. While I don't consider these interactions to be a character arc for Adolin, that does not mean that the contain no meaning or value for anyone, myself included. Adolin's personality and positive interactions make me feel good, but since that is all that I get from him, it makes him a less interesting character to me. The last thing I'll say in this, because I think it is important. I'm simply expressing my opinion on Adolin the character, and that opinion does not negate the personal experience and satisfaction you've taken from those chapters. I am grateful to have learned through you that there were other ways of appreciating these scenes than I had considered before. I can only promise that I will remember this interaction should I encounter a similarly situated family in my own life, and not add to the problems they may be facing that are similar to yours.

More likely we just have very different definitions of what constitutes a character arc. I didn't get anything of the sort from Adolin's viewpoints, but I don't begrudge you or anyone else from finding personal meaning in what they've read there.

Why does it seem, first in OB, and now I'm RoW, that so many revelations being delivered that should feel big, seem to be landing with an underwhelming thump. There were a lot of good things I liked in part four. Navani's final scenes with Raboniel for instance. The Dabbid viewpoint was wonderful. But the Shadesmar scenes for some reason aren't hitting me the way I think they are supposed to be. I don't believe it's solely my detesting if Adolin's lack of an arc. Something is just not resonating with me. I expected more of a climax from this section. Well, on to part 5. I'm growing increasingly concerned for Kaladin. Someone has to fail. Adolin passed his "trial", Shallan stepped back from the brink (also underwhelming to me). Where is the failure going to come? Perhaps Kaladin will betray everyone's hopes and expectations of him. Succumb to Odium. Become his champion. I don't want it, but storm it, something interesting needs to start happening with these characters...

The first Dabbid POV...I didn't think I could still get choked up reading a book...

I liked this part more than I thought I would, especially the Navani parts. I'm a little bummed that I am not getting to see more character conflict between Kaladin and Lirin like I thought I would, but at least there is some building up of Kaladin continuing to defy growing. He continues to do the same things and act the same ways as he has before, on instinct, because he can't think to do anything else. A good way of building up the arc for the payoff later, I'm sure. Also really enjoyed the Jasnah POV. Seeing a higher order radiant in plate and using it as it was meant to be was good. Also seeing her fail and flail in an environment she is unfamiliar with humanized her in a way she desperately needed. All in all, though, I agree with some other posters here. This part felt like it had a lot of padding to it. Some that might have been better served getting cut. It's a difficult balance to walk: Brandon needs to put in the work to earn his payoffs later, meaning the characters in the tower need to struggle, to encounter obstacles, to communicate the difficulty in the task that is ahead. However, I would have expected the end of this part to have had a bit more "progress" than we did. Oh well, time to continue on, and read more about the Rosharan Jesus, ready to stand trial for the sins of humanity, to take their collective mistakes and be judged guilty for them though he himself is innocent. Who's playing the role of Pontius? Of Judas? Do they have crucifixion in Shadesmar? Guess we'll find out.

The great thing about this moment was: you as the reader are left with thoughts of "oh no, did he do the right thing? He just totally tanked the progress he made with his dad. Was this progress, or the manifestations of his continuing struggles, his character flaws". You're left with the feeling that this might be a problem for him, something that has the potential to have consequences.

Brandon writes without the barest hint of irony of a character who by all intents and purposes can be described as "perfect". Adolin continues to do all the right things, say all the right things, inspire the right people. Still waiting for all of these passages Brandon writes about Adolin's feelings of inadequacy to actually manifest as a real failing that is consequential to the narrative. Halfway through the book though, and it's not looking good. These POVs are starting to become a slog for me.

With each passing Adolin viewpoint, I keep both liking him more, and hating him more. It is a very confusing experience.

Well, I'll admit this much: seems like Adolin may be safe this book, as the reviewer doesn't seem to experience as many devastating lows about this arc as they did the first. Seems like our character deaths may be occurring at the tower. Yay...more pain and loss to heap on to Kaladin (cause you know it's going to be more close friends and/or family) Brandon...if you're going to keep Adolin alive, and he's going to resurrect Maya and become radiant, could you please please please have it cost him something...

Awesome. Thanks for the quick response. Honestly, that doesn't read like it deflates my point, that Shallan/Adolin arc will probably not play a significant role in resolving the Urithiru battle in the dramatic fashion described above. Not to mention that the reviewer states that the arc itself has its conclusion in one scene in part five, and is careful to avoid detailing who may be involved. It reads more like there is a quick denouement scene for one of the viewpoints, likely Shallan. I'd put my money on it involving Mraize. She needs to deliver to him the information and receive her reward, do she can decide if it was worth the price she paid. My point, I think, still stands that the emotional climax of that arc will be contained within part 4.

Got some sauce for that?

Given the story structure visualization that Brandon revealed here, I think it is much more likely that Adolin and Shallan's story ends for this book at the conclusion of part 4, and are not likely to play a significant role (if any) in the climax of the battle for Urithiru. At least that is my suspicion. All characters returning from Shadesmar in the nick of time to save the day was Part 5 of OB. Looking at the balance of the narrative from a writing perspective, I would think that Brandon would consider that a bit stale, and repetitive. Also, is it even possible for a whole bunch of people to simultaneously bond honorspren en-mass in such a short timeframe as would be required by the act of "turning the tide of a battle". I don't think so, or at least it seems counterintuitive to how we have come to understand these bonds developing in the first place. No, I think that Shallan/Adolin's storyline is going to be the emotional letdown portion of RoW, to counterbalance the emotional uplifting that will probably occur by throwing back the enemy at Urithiru and reactivating the tower via the sibling. An example of counterbalancing emotional beats in a book across multiple plot lines, look at ASoIaF: I dunno, I could be very wrong on my take for what will happen in this book. However I still maintain that this series about a global total war between multiple factions of people is decidedly light on tragedy thus far. So I'm just kind of looking at the places where that shoe is likely to drop.

I've had my own theories on what is really in store for Adolin. I really really really hope that his plotline isn't going to follow the straightforward projection that Brandon has laid out here. I'm waiting to be "pleasantly surprised" by some kind of interesting character arc for him. I'm really hoping that his attachment/enthusiasm towards Maya is a result of his desire for some distraction from his problems where his current life situation is concerned. Problems that will have some real world external consequences to him. Alas, I fear that Adolin's true purpose in this novel will be to allow Brandon to obfuscate and misdirect us, the readers, from things going on with Shallan that he wants to hide, or surprise us with. I fear that Adolin's writing this book is just to serve as our "reliable narrator" for the expedition, whose viewpoints will give Brandon the creative leeway he needs to continue to build Shallan's arc, with a few sentences of thoughts or emotions here and there in each of his viewpoints so that he doesn't come across as a complete plank of wood. To be seen. I feel I'll know which after reading his first viewpoint.

If you're in the minority opinion, then I'm in it with you. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the effort and unique creativity that Brandon has brought to his world and magic systems. He's second to none in that regard (imo). However, I'm always first and foremost (especially now as an adult) interested in characters, their journeys, their interpersonal relationships. The cosmere, realmatic theory, adonalsium, etc are all toppings on the sundae for me. Really good, unique, interesting toppings, but toppings nonetheless. WoK and WoR really sold me on the characters, and hooked me into continuing to read, though OB kind of flatlined for me in this regard. Hoping to get reinvested into them for RoW, though this time around, I'm hedging my bets by only getting the ebook upon release.

Ayup. See you in a week and a half to discuss whether either of our expectations/standards were met about him. Now I just have to figure out how to bargain with my family for the time to actually read the book.

Something I liked from this chapter: I liked this line, pretty well written, striking. Also has the added benefit of foreshadowing how Taravangian's view of leadership is going to be starkly contrasted by the one that Kaladin is going to come to understand during the course of the book.

Wants to get back into Shadesmar so he can interact with Maya, I suspect... Oh gods...Brandon is doing it. He's really going to make the Maya plot point the thing that saves the envoy and brings the Honorspren back into allegiance with the humans. Adolin Kholin, the hero for the ages, I'm sure the Honorspren are going to love him. Such a monumental role tied to a character with the development depth of the coffee I spilled on my desk. Wonderful... Also, Kaladin is considered Grade-A cremhole to the spren of his own order. I actually like that, it'll make his next arc that much more satisfying upon completion.

Now I'm thinking about how much more of a loss Tien must have been for her, as I imagine he was that dose of balance to the family dynamic. Poor Hesina indeed...now I've made myself sad. Now on to my thoughts: To those who are pointing out the insensitivity of Lirin's reaction to Kaladin's "retirement" and being bothered by it, I think that that is the point. This arc for Kaladin is about finding something new about himself, about re-discovering and connecting things from his past, addressing them, and forging them into a new/different direction than either he or Lirin could have imagined. The conflict in that is going to come from first both Kaladin and Lirin having to discover that "you can never go home again" so to speak. Kaladin even seems to know that this chain of events was inevitable, but will ultimately prove to be not for him. He doesn't want this, but he will have to go through the motions in order to prove it to himself, and to Lirin as well. Lirin has to see that his little boy, who he had maintained a very specific set of hopes and dreams for has changed dramatically, and is a different person, and will be a different person regardless of their time in the new OR. There is going to be a lot of fun play on character development, interactions, revelations, and growth on both men's parts, and I think this is probably the part of the book I'm looking forward to the most now. I hope Brandon delivers. A side note for the Laral shippers: I think Brandon is cutting that off immediately here: Laral has her own problems to deal with, including young children that need their mother, who is also now a citylady. She just lost a husband that she loved, and is not going to be in any kind of place for pursuing a romantic relationship with anyone. Especially not someone who has his own issues, and also still has very strong negative feelings ("blowhard") towards her late husband, and the father of her children. It also would seem a very crass thing to do for someone to swoop in and fill that gap in a short timespan, I don't think Brandon has any intention of writing that. Could that story be told? Kaladin working through his issues in a mirror of Laral working through hers, with the end result that real affection blossoms again over time. Sure it could, but not in this book, not in the timeframe we have for it. Kaladin's page time is going to be spent mostly dealing with his own issues, and working out the distance between him and his father. Laral will likely play a role in Kaladin learning some things on leadership etc, taking inspiration from her and her strength. But romance is out, imo, and I think Brandon is setting that expectation here.

NP, glad to have someone who engages with me. I know that I come across as abrasive on this forums more often than I would like, so I am always appreciative of someone who sticks around while I try and work on my own shortcomings with getting my points across. As an aspiring writer, when not doing all things required of me by my day job, raising a family, and other responsibilities, I often find myself looking way too much at the Meta analysis of Brandon's work now, where I didn't before. It almost certainly has had an affect on my level of enjoyment of the books, and these forum interactions are a good reminder that I should stop and take the time to be more focused on why I started this series in the first place: enjoyment. So thank you for that. To me, it feels like there is still something missing to Adolin. Something critical about his character that would take the story to the next level, and I can't quite put my finger on it. These rants on the forums are kind of my way of working that out now, since I spent the 3 year gap since OB decidedly not thinking about it.

Ah, so Adolin's issue all along was that he was never able to be his own person before. And now that he has been happily married for a year, and no longer under the responsibility of being Dalinar's perfect son, he has finally grown into himself. Wonderful. Wish I could have seen that as it took place. Also seems like the kind of person that Adolin is exploring to be is also someone that doesn't seem to present any issues for anyone other than Dalinar. More on that later. This to me read like Dalinar is going through what most parents go through when their children commit their lives to someone else: having to give up a part of that child in a way you haven't before, and learn to accept it. It remains to be seen whether Adolin's low-key challenging of his father's expectations actually matter in any meaningful character sense. It's got to start straining their relationship to the point where it starts having negative consequences for one or both of them, and we are NOT there yet. So far, it just seems like normal banter indicating that Dalinar is still going through what is otherwise a normal adjustment to a life change. We shall see. In regards to your larger post from earlier: most of those "character development" items you bring up occurred in the past of the narrative, and most of them were resolved before the start of RoW. All those points you made about "insecurities" seem to fall flat for me after having just read the new chapter, where Adolin seems to have anything but insecurities. In fact, he seems so secure in his marriage, his family position, and ranking where he feels comfortable enough to start testing/probing/challenging his father on the expectations Dalinar still holds for him. I'll address that more when I have the time, but for now I want to reiterate that my contention has always been that Adolin needed to be given something new this book, otherwise there would be issues for the narrative, especially where this "Maya" plot is concerned. Do I think that problems with his father are going to be this new "arc" for Adolin? Do I really see that tension between them growing in a way that actually has repercussions to the narrative plot? I'm leaning towards no, especially given that Adolin is confirmed to be jaunting off to Shadesmar with Shallan for most of the book. To develop that animosity, that tension, that build up, they have to interact with each other. Though now that I think on it, is Dalinar going to be the "envoy" to Lasting Integrity that Shallan and Adolin escort? Especially since we know that Taravangian is supposed to get him out of the Tower? That actually would be a fun read, the tensions and squabbles between the 3 of them, where such problems might actually hurt their ability to complete the task. I like that thought. It's probably been debunked already somewhere though...

You claim that Adolin has an arc, and that it is "reviving Maya". But as I've argued elsewhere in other threads, I find it difficult to understand why something like "Reviving Maya", which constitutes a plot point, a task, an event that happens within the story, is often declared as an "arc" for a character. Would you not agree that a "plot point" and a "character arc" are two different, and distinct, elements of a story? Would you agree that a character "arc" involves a change of state of the character. Character starts out with these views, these goals, these perceptions, and then they achieve this, journey there, meet a person, or lose something (make your pick, there are countless others), and through those acts of the story, change to have altered sets of views, goals, and perceptions of the world, or a better understanding of themselves. If you agree, that a character arc isn't just "character does this action" in the narrative, that it involves some kind of set up for change for the character, and you also believe that Adolin has such an arc planned, can you please share your thoughts on what arc you believe has been set up for him? What changes in his beliefs, his goals, his motivations, his ideals, his behaviors are necessary for the growth of this character? What interesting internal journey can Adolin, as he is written now, take? Not trying to imply that we don't know Adolin. We know him as well as we can know any other character, but it is because, as Brandon has stated: "What you see is what you get". And what we get for Adolin does not run very deep in terms of character development. Most of what we see of him throughout OB and these first couple of chapters in RoW is very light on any kind of internal struggle. And what little he did have, based on his internal viewpoints up to that point, seemed to be concluded by the end of OB. He got the girl he was pursuing, he didn't have to shoulder the burden of a potential crown (responsibility) he didn't want, and he cleared his conscience of murdering a highprince. The internal struggles we knew of have been wiped off the board, and if Brandon doesn't replace them with new ones, then what are we left with? If Adolin is written to be that person who "seems like they have it all together, and says and does all the right things at the right times, but is struggling internally because of the pressure of having to always be that person", well then I would say it is HUGELY important for us to be in his head, so that we can see the struggle. We very much need more than his words and actions to other people as perceived by those people. This whole "still waters run deep" motif with Adolin might as well not exist if we can't peer beneath the surface. There may be a whole ocean under there, but we'll never be able to distinguish it from a puddle if we keep having to rely on viewing it externally. So my implication is that you should not give that kind of a character a plot point of the magnitude of reviving a deadeye spren, without also fleshing out that character. We should be taken beneath the surface so that we as the readers can be given a feeling of depth to their journey. That way the plot altering achievement accomplished in the world, a Maya revival, is mirrored by an equally satisfying character arc. That is the crux of my argument. What are Adolin's motivations in life? What are his goals (for himself)? What does he want (for himself)? What do you think he needs (for himself), if anything? Can you list a couple of these things? Right now, it seems to me like what little motivations he has are centered around other people, and nothing to indicate his own personal internal ones. Not having any personal goals or desires for oneself in life and the problems those deficiencies generates is a great foundation for a character arc. But guess what? We've already got that going for another character: Kaladin. So again, I ask, what are Adolin's motivations and goals that apply to himself, and not solely to other characters and their arcs? No, he certainly does not need to have such individualized motivations if his importance in the narrative stays where it is, or diminishes. But if you are going to give him bigger plot points to own, then he should have those fleshed out for us readers.

So I'll start by saying that my distinctions for main characters and other characters are in reference to where I believe they fall on the gradient of complexity of author development tied to that character. If this shorthand is incorrect in describing my intent, or there is a more appropriate one, I am more than happy to drop the term, as I am not married to it for the purposes of the ideas I'm putting forth. So let me try to distill down the point that I am trying to make, in regards to Adolin and this potential Maya plot: If, say, the plot point of reviving a Deadeye spren, something that has never been done, so far as we or anyone in cosmere know, something that is presumed to be impossible, something that the author himself states would require some serious business to make it happen, were given to a character like Rock, then I absolutely would be making the same argument about Rock that I am making about Adolin. If such a thing was never achieved by anyone else in the world(universe) before this individual, then tell me why this individual. What is it about this character that puts them in such a unique position. What are the events that lead up to it, but more importantly, what is the character thinking about as it is happening. What is it about them, their nature, their thoughts, their approach to the world that makes this absolutely momentous event in Cosmere history possible. Was it hard? Did it take conscious effort? Were there costs to the person who did this? Did they have to give up something, do they regret that, are there ongoing repurcussions to their life? Why do they want to do this, or does it just happen by accident? If it is a struggle to achieve this, can I (the reader) be in their head as they experience it? Adolin reviving Maya, if such a plot exists in Brandon's plan, is not a minor occurrence in universe. It is a game changer in the perception of the world our characters live in, the very nature of their relationship with Spren, as well as a shift in prioritizations for everyone involved with them. The momentousness of that accomplishment, imo, better come balanced by an equally momentous character journey on the part of whoever achieves this feat. Adolin, as he is written now, is currently not up to my standards for this. I'm fine with him as a character as he exists today, for he is currently balanced in proportion to his overall influence on the greater plot. However, it would be a disservice to the story for him to be given this plot point without some additional serious character development on Brandon's part. He needs to restore some of the things he has taken from this character over the course of Oathbringer. Like motivations, agency, sense of purpose that isn't just in service to the plot, or the arcs of other characters. He needs his own arc re-established, one that can do justice to the gravitas of reviving Maya. The Maya plot needs to be driven by him, by his actions, his agency, his struggle, not anyone else's. If he is going to be playing an increased role in the significant development of the greater narrative plot, due to his interactions with Maya, then his development needs a proportional increase in depth. Without it, I suspect that when this plot lands, the sense of satisfaction and accomplishment will be diminished, or absent entirely.

See, this is the trick with Adolin as he is currently being written, and the level of depth Brandon has decided to pursue with his character. All of these things you are stating about him are things you are projecting onto him. They may be well reasoned, rational projections based on your own personal experiences in life, but without Brandon taking us into Adolin's head, his world, and putting those things front and center for us readers to see, then all it will ever be is the little dribbles of things that come out during other characters interaction with him. We don't get to see what exactly is painful for him about his relationship with his wife, or his inability to help her with her problems. We don't get to see his thoughts on the matter, or what he does to cope with it. We don't get to see the personal toll it is taking on his psyche. And ultimately we don't get to see how those things affect his ability to operate successfully in the world. If we don't get to take the journey with him, then what lesson are we to glean from this character? How is our understanding about people in his situation (or your situation) supposed to change? Always maintaining the air of being the strong, competent and reliable person in any and every situation has a cost. Setting aside your own needs, desires, or sufferings so that you can always prioritize others has a cost. Knowing what those costs are, and how they balance the scales against the alternatives is how we can judge whether or not decisions we make are in the long run helpful or harmful. We should see these costs present themselves to Adolin, we should see him choosing to accept them, and we should see the impact they have on his life, positively and negatively. A "different type of growth" that the readers are not able to experience alongside the character is not something I would wish for someone as prominent in the narrative as Adolin has been. Anything we get with Adolin, as it stands now, is in service to the plot, and to other characters. He's become increasingly more like a cardboard cutout of a main character with each passing novel, and Brandon is relying on his readers to fill in the blanks, to write their own "headcanon" for what he thinks, how he feels, how he's suffering instead of Brandon having to write it in any in depth way. Perhaps that is exactly why so many people enjoy the character: he's the character they can write themselves, his internal motivations being so left to interpretation due to lack of prose. I think you are conflating a reader's "interpretation" of a character, with their "enjoyment" of a character. A good character, when written, should have fewer "interpretable" characteristics than not. We as readers should mostly be on the same page in understanding what typically motivates a character, how they respond to situations, what their outlook on life is, what their goals are likely to be. Even when those things are unknown to the character, we as readers should all be able to collectively agree that it is "unknown" until the writer happens to fill us in, and until they do so we are only able to surmise, or offer our own "interpretation". Example: If I were to state: "Kaladin Stormblessed is typically a very even-tempered, jolly fellow, who is quick to joke and quick to smile, and always has something positive to say about any situation". You would likely respond, correctly, "No, that is not a valid interpretation of the character". An author has a view of their main characters, a goal and an intent behind how they structure their personalities. The goal of the author is not usually to obfuscate who the character is to the reader. We as the readers should know these things about a character, if not at the beginning, then at least by journeying with them. What the character ultimately means to you, the lessons you take from them and their journey, as well as your personal enjoyment of that are the things that are ultimately subject to personal interpretation. To date, Brandon has done minimal work in "telling" us what Adolin may be thinking or feeling, but he has not done a whole lot of "showing" us that. I certainly hope that changes once we get to the Parts in RoW where we can finally be seated in his head again. I sincerely hope Brandon takes advantage of those, certain to be brief, moments to make it worth it. Because I'm not going to do his writing for him in my head for this character.

It's not just about "Adolin being too nice". It's about the complete lack of challenges this character faces that force him to look upon his actions, his motivations, and his behaviors to determine where he is deficient, where he needs to change. There is nothing he needs growth on. You said it yourself: he is "whole". Due to this, and his current status and import in the narrative, were he to receive this "powerup", both in terms of physical and magical power as well as narrative influence (in the form of reviving Maya and potentially becoming Radiant), without being accompanied by a deep challenge to his personal stakes or behaviors or dare I say it...character, then it cheapens the narrative. It cheapens the narrative in a way that does a disservice to all the other better written characters working through their struggles, and having to find ways to live with their flaws, and journey on in spite of them. There are far more minor characters that have more going on internally than Adolin does. Brandon is obviously a very experienced and accomplished writer, and I can think of no logical excuse for why he has short changed Adolin's character potential so much unless he plans on Adolin not being around for much longer. I get that you identify with him, as do many other people. He's written in a way that it would be impossible for him to not be liked. (Another point in favor that he's been marked by Brandon as the sacrificial lamb). However, the measure of a good character is not made based solely on their relatability, imo. I'm fine with the way Adolin is written if he dies, for then the way he was written makes more sense. I am not fine with how Adolin is written, if he is just going to continue to not face any personal challenges to his behavior or beliefs, but instead continues to be rewarded just by being...himself. How droll, how boring. It would be a completely avoidable black mark on a narrative that, for the most part, has had very stellar character drama.