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One of the things that bothered me about The Hero of Ages was Elend’s duralumin-atium burst. It’s iconic but it always annoyed me why Elend could do what Ruin couldn’t - foresee Preservation’s plan and Ruin’s death. However, now that Secret History has given insight into precognition I finally understand Elend’s sacrifice. Elend never knew for certain if his sacrifice would be guaranteed to drive Vin to murder-suicide Ruin. But he aimed to protect the world and trusted Vin, so he sacrificed himself to help her. This is something Ruin - an unaware Vessel filled with the contextless embodiment of decay - was unwilling to do. Before heading west to the Ire’s fortress, Preservation showed Kelsier a future vision that starts from him heading west. The future vision held Connections between Kelsier and his soul to Preservation, Kelsier to everything and everyone on Scadrial, Preservation to the ground and air and metals. And in the vision, it held a path of future possibilities - many, thousands upon thousands, infinite, tangled with each other. Kelsier could only glean vague, general impressions because his mind isn’t expanded to sort through or understand the sensation, the information, or the individual possibilities. Elend saw into the future the same way Kelsier did - through glimpsing Connections. But he could understand all the possibilities because Atium expands the mind. When burning duralumin+atium, Elend became temporarily Connected to Kelsier, Vin, Ruin’s essence, the future, the past, everything and everyone in the battlefield. Those Connections are the blue lines pointing from his chest in the Physical Realm and the white lines in the Cognitive Realm. Seeing the future possibilities within those Connections, but understanding them all because of Atium’s mind expansion. Judging from regular Atium and Kelsier’s vision, he probably saw the ”thousands upon thousands” of possibilities that could result from his current action - the fight against Marsh. “I see now” is when Elend liked the general implication of the future vision - that he could drive Vin to sacrifice her life if it meant defeating Ruin. So he let Marsh kill him and hoped it would come true. But even the Shards of Adonalsium - those who foresee infinite possibilities and infinite actions - can be wrong about the possibilities they see as unlikely, likely, or thread towards. All he could do was trust Vin and hope for the best outcome. But where does this fit into the futures seen by the Shards surrounding these events - Ruin and Preservation? Ruin, the essence which fuels Elend’s future vision and the God whom foresaw what Elend saw. Preservation, the God Sanderson implies incorporated Elend’s death into his plan. I believe for Ruin, his inability to acknowledge Elend’s future vision was not a matter of seeing the possibilities. But rather, it was a matter of seeing them as likely possibilities. Ati the Vessel basically didn’t exist anymore. Ati didn't even remember what planet he was working on, virtually a shell filled with Ruin's Investiture. Ruin the God foresaw the possibilities within Elend's future vision, but either saw them as unlikely or dismissed them entirely. You could even say he was a god that no longer understood or acknowledged the loving sacrifice that existed within his foreseen future possibilities. Ruin the God didn’t embrace life or acknowledge that life needs to persist. Ruin didn’t sacrifice. He said he was life, and yet Leras/Fuzz comforted life when Ruin did not. And for this, he dismissed Elend’s futures and paid the price. Preservation protects. Preservation listens to the hearts of men, for it hears all thoughts of all Scadrians. Leras understands sacrifice, for the divinity sacrificed his mind and equal pedestal to Ruin. This was for the sake of protecting in the long run. This is why he wanted Elend to have the lerasium bead. Leras chose a successor who could live a life highly Connected to Preservation’s attributes, and might sacrifice her life for the greater good. He foresaw someone might use one lerasium bead for the pieces of the plan to fall together. And when the time came, He saw Vin’s lover as someone who might sacrifice his life for the greater good. Someone who could use the bead. Leras bet those possibilities would come into play at the last moment, did whatever he could to thread towards them, and hoped it paid off.

When you wear all your Sanderson shirts when you're in public to maybe meet a fellow fan.

sorry, they threatened those that follow Stick. My phrasing was poor. Also: That is not true. Often, war can have bad results, but it is not inherently bad. Many good things have happened through war, like @The cheeseman said earlier. That is not true at all. Was the defeat of Nazi Germany just so the US could say, look at us, we're big and strong? No, there was much more to it. Again, not true. War is not about just one person or there wouldn't, and couldn't, be a war. war cannot exist without two parties fighting. the greater good is an undefined thing. Hitler thought that what he did was for the greater good. that doesn't mean it was right. While some of the greatest goods have been done under the mantra of "for the greater good" some of the greatest evils have as well.

This has been implemented.

Hey, I’m both! Kinda... I’m working on the therapist bit. Kell’s last words to Vin were also pretty harsh, if we’re being fair. And I do think some of what she said came from knowing that he wasn’t going to follow her Beyond. But I think she told him what she did because she KNEW it was the last thing she would say to him. And she remembered the effect Kelsier’s last words had on her. And she wanted him to remember them whenever he remembered her. Because Kelsier’s story has a long way to go. And there’s something in his future. Something I think Leras saw when he Preserved Kelsier and again as he died and Kell Ascended. Something Sazed saw when he refused to resurrect Kelsier because “Sazed believes in Kelsier more than Kelsier does.” Something Vin saw when she was Preservation. Her words were harsh, yes. But as Kelsier continues to survive, continues to plot and manipulate, continues to scheme and contrive, it’s something he needs to remember. Something he needs to hear from one of the few people he can’t ignore and won’t forget. Something he needs to keep in mind as he moves through the centuries; something to keep him on the right side of the line; something to push him toward becoming a better man. And Vin was never going to get another chance, nor a better one, to tell him. I don’t know if that helps, but that’s how I see it. She told him what he needed to hear, not necessarily what she wanted to say. And that’s love too.

YKYASFW you're in the middle of 3-4 other books, (2 of which are Sanderson) and your hand automatically reaches for Warbreaker...

*realizes I post on here WAY too much* When you have this conversation: (spoilered for length)

When you see a man with white hair and instinctively flare all of your metals

I have a request. Would it be possible to move the Shardcast tab one spot over between Gallery and Coppermind? I ask because I come here mostly to read the forums. I do listen to the shardcasts from time to time, but on a daily basis when I'm trying to click on the the subtabs, or the Forums tab, I'll catch the Shardcast tab with my cursor and the dropdown for it covers the sub tabs, and it's a little thing that happens so often if feels like a big thing. I realize this is a specific ask, and it's probably because it hurts me brain when it happens. I may be the only one who this happens to and if so, feel free to ignore me. I was hoping I'm not the only person this happens to? Either way, thanks.

The original Ashynites used the power of a Bondsmith and an Elsecaller to send themselves directly from Ashyn to Roshar. So if they can make a more perfected and mechanized version of that, they might be able to make Worldhopping Oathgates that don't need to be paired up, or maybe they can just set up Oathgates in Shadesmar, the Oathgates allow Realmatic Transition. The main problem is getting Stormlight and Spren off of Roshar, which will happen at some point as seen in Sunlit Man. Something else I'm thinking about for Era 4 is the combining of Hemalurgy and cybernetics, so many possibilities there. Imagine having several 'chip' spikes that contain various powers, then slotting them into you cybernetics which would be situated over the correct Bindpoints. Then when you need a specific power you can swap between them without needing to go over the 3 Spike limit, which makes it so you can't be controlled. Maybe Attribute Spikes will be more common, imagine having 3 'Chips' of Iron, Zinc, Copper and Tin then having a Gamer interface for a kind of 'attribute slider'. So you can switch from 3 Iron Chips to 2 Copper and 1 Tin. So fascinating. Could even set up a bit of slang for that, the 4 Stats: Strength, Senses, Smarts and Stability. Sounds catchy to me. Who wouldn't want to be stronger or smarter whenever they want?

People. Of the Shard. (Rant incoming)

As a word of warning to everyone on this thread...

We do want to do this. Thanks for reminder on this. Not sure when it will be done as Paleo is a busy guy but I do appreciate it.

I feel this is necessary. Why? To make sure our great friend @Just-A-Stick still feels good about herself. Here’s some people who I know she makes happy, but that’s only a few people, add your names below if she’s ever made you happy @WhyEverNot_8, @Through The Living Glass, @Part Of The Narrative, @RoyalBeeMage, @Edema Rue, @Shardwatcher01, @Wierdo, @Lunamor, @The cheeseman, @SmilingPanda19, @Weaver of Lights, @Block,

*melts* Wow guys... Thank you guys smchhhh ALSO- IF IT'S WARRR THEN WE NEED TO BE LIKE SHERMAN AND USE SCORCHED EARTH TACTICS-

Whats the point of life? I mean lets be honest: We work every week through school just to waiting for the weekend. That goes by before we even realize We work through weeks and months just waiting for summer break. That goes by before we even realize We work for years of school just waiting for graduation. From those 12 years of school just to get a useless paper. We go back to school after that for even more years, just working for one again another piece of paper. Then we're supposed to get hired at a 9-5 desk job until we work ourselves into retirement, but by that time we are too old to enjoy life. The point of this, everyone, is don't be so worried about what's going on in your life, whether it be school, or work, or trying to find the love of your life. Just take a step back from everything and enjoy life where you are. I have a quote I'd like to share with you. It impacted me heavily and made me think about this. It says this: "Life moves pretty fast. If you dont stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it." -Ferris Bueller, Ferris Bueller's Day Off.

Oathbringer:

YKYASFW you read Yumi for the fourth time, finish it, then immediately restart it.

Me: Okay, as soon as I get home from school, I'm going to do all that Geometry homework I have! Also Me: Ooh, look, the Shard!

When you see somebody wearing all grey and think "Uh, oh - Awakener, watch out. . . "

YKYASFW your friends hide their Sanderson books so you won't constantly ask them questions on their progress, theories, and favorites. They're honestly so funny about it.

Who on earth liked a post from here- I didn’t wanna lose todayyyy

When everything kinda just sucks and you listen to a song you've heard countless times and it hits the same way it did when you first heard it and things feel okay for a little bit

Hey! Figured I'd introduce myself. I'm relatively new to The Cosmere, as in I started reading Mistborn sometime in February of this year. As for Mistborn, I've read The Final Empire, The Well of Ascension, The Hero of Ages, 11th Metal, Alloy of Law, Shadows of Self, Bands of Mourning along with Mistborn: Secret history. Yet to read The Lost Metal, I've decided to wait until I'm further into The Cosmere. I've also read The Way of Kings and I'm on chapter 25 of Warbreaker. I've basically been reading straight Sanderson since February (with one exception). My favorite characters probably are Kelsier (hence the username), TenSoon, and Kaladin.

Now this could be general propaganda or conditioning from holding Preservation, but I'm remembering the very beginning of M:SH where Leras tells Kelsier that one shouldn't trust Ati's essence even in a diluted form. We also know that Ruin helped orchestrate the demise of TLR so... I'm a bit suspicious of trusting the knowledge gained from Ruin's power. Hopping over to Roshar, Renarin seemed to be able to see Odium's visions of the future and saw Dalinar as the champion of nine shadows and his own death at Jasnah's hands. This wasn't a controlled vision, it was probably linked to his old epileptic seizures, and it didn't show Renarin's desired outcomes but apparently Odium's goals. So... how confident are you that the future glimpsed from the SR that you are trying to discern is really according to your wishes? Did Ruin nudge Zane to choose the wrong Atium shadow to keep Vin alive when Vin managed to split the Atium shadow? Granted that may have been from Hemalurgic influence and not solely Atium's power, but we also saw Vin fight 2 Mistborn and a squad of Mistings alone when she killed Shan Elariel. I do wonder if that wasn't just pure skill on her part while wearing a Hemalurgic spike and burning Atium against a more experienced Atium burner. Vin's major triumphs over others while burning Atium seem to be directly supportive of Ruin's escape with her survival as a nice side effect. Be wary of anyone claiming to know the future. Advice from Hoid, so take it for what it's worth. Beyond that, I expect burning Atium to impart a substantial portion of Ruin's Intent into my soul. It seems like no accident that Electrum/Atium alloys optimize you for close-combat killing. Maybe Malatium tries to let you pinpoint and identify the target's weaknesses based on personal history, though we rarely see it used (and didn't get much info on the Inquisitor). It wouldn't surprise me at all if it's technically possible to seek out constructive use-cases for the vision granted by Atium, but that the default is destructive or negatively competitive in nature. Even Elend's glimpse into the SR ended with him choosing to get axed. If combat, dominance, and destruction of your enemies is the main objective, then yes, Atium is your friend. If those elements aren't a core piece of your agenda, then I recommend being very careful. In the right usage, we saw Yomen as an almost normal human outmaneuvering Vin as one of the most skilled Mistborn ever seen, so yes, it can be very powerful with applied foresight or peeks into the SR. I end with: highly risky, have someone who can see Spiritwebs or Connections confirm what Ruin's essence is doing to your soul before committing to large-scale consumption. In the right scenario it can prove more pivotal than Lerasium, particularly when it was a renewable resource, but not one I would recommend using lightly.

I have read nearly all of Brandon's books and he is without a doubt my favorite author. I recently found out about the 17th Shard and decided to make an account.

Silence! i am Thaid Ghost’dib atreides. Duke of MahBedroom.

Huzzah! *passes around contraband Root @_Zer0____ @#1 Taln Fan @Adolinalsium @Aeoryi @Aeternum @Aismeen @AltonicKeys @Aluin_Demonz @Anarchy @Ancient Elantrian @Anshul-Shard of Curiosity @Argus the Awful @Ati16 @Boomerang Guy @CallsignZen @Chinkoln @Cinnamon @Condensation @DarkAlphaWolf12 @DefiantAllomancer @ecjhtheedgedancer @Edema Rue @Elf @Emery the Steelrunner @Empathic Elf @Enter a username @Experience @FictionSpren @Flying @Glashard @HarmonysHerald @HippoPhileus@Hoid the Former Drifter @Hoid-my-beer @Hollow Graves @I read Stormlight first @Immortal Platypus @InfiniteInsanity @InvisibIe @Just_a_Fan @Just-A-Stick @justice magician @Kajsa @Karamathi'ani'telliteki'un @Kaven @KelsierFortnite @King Oreo @KitCatGoChitChat @Knight of Eternal Books @Kvothe the Bloodless @Lego Mistborn @Lightspen of the Glass Sea @Little_Dagger @Lotus Blossom @Lunamor @Maddie The Survivor @Mazman @Medium @Morningtide @Mr. Misting @Mystic Syn @Nathrangking @NameIess @Ookla @Ookla the Stranger @Part Of The Narrative @Potato's Wit @PrestoTheMagnificent @Procrastination @Radiant-Twinborn @Rallohir @Ranryu @Ravenclawjedi42 @Robin Sedai @Roselldarosie @RoyalBeeMage @Rune @S. Stormy @SashaBlue @Scarletfox @Scars of Hathsin @Sequence @Shadonin @Shardfire @Shardwatcher01 @Shining Silhouette @shortcake @Silver Phantom @SmilingPanda19 @Stormlit-man @SymphonianBookworm @Szeth_Pancakes @Tea Leaf @The Aspiring Archivist @The Baker @The Bookwyrm @The cheeseman @The H @The Halcyon Girl @The Honorable One @The Isochronism @The Paradoxical Phenomenon @the releaser @The Storming Stormfather @The Wandering Wizard @TheGreatSnail @Through The Living Glass @Truthless of Shinovar @TwinSouls @Vapor @Vin's Haircut @Voidspawn @Weaver of Lights @WhispersOfWit @WhyEverNot_8 @Wierdo @Wittles @WoolenStream554 @XaliaStormblessed @ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ Yes, that was all 120 of you.

Except that we know that TLR, who had free access to atium and a millennium to experiment, hadn't been able to come up with any new applications of hemalurgy. Which suggests that using it to gain knowledge is much trickier than you propose. At the very least, judging by Elend, you'd need lots and lots of atium _and_ duralumin allomancy.

Welcome to the Shard! So, the biggest issue I see with this is a misunderstanding of what it means for an Invested system to be aligned with a Shard. The powers of a magic system don't stem from the Shard's Intent, but the way you gain access to it is intertwined with the Intent. Still, I think it’s pretty cool you put this much thought into it!

Cosmere

[SPOILERS ALL STORMLIGHT] Hello all. I had a thought about Stormlight 5, possible plots points in it, and the death rattle about a child and a knife to its throat. I realized that Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and Oathbringer all have instances of someone in a situation where sacrificing a literal or figurative child would advance the personal interests of the slayer. In Way of Kings Kaladin refuses to sacrifice Tien to the military without being by his side, and Tien's eventual strategic death by the army cements in Kaladin the conviction never to act in like manner. Thus we have the moment in Words of Radiance where Kaladin realizes that Elhokar is Tien for Dalinar and refuses to let him be sacrificed for 'the greater good'. And in Oathbringer we see Dalinar refuse to kill the child Tanalan, even though it could possibly bring future problems. That brings me to Rhythm of War. I don't know if the pattern continues in this one. I can see Shallan not killing Kelek as an example of it, since his mental stability has degraded so much. But I can't think of anything else. All that to say, I think that this theme of potentially sacrificing an innocent to achieve an end is an intentional theme and I think there will be a climatic moment centered around this theme in Wind and Truth. Anyway, just wanted to add that to the bucket of ideas. Hope you all have a good day.

A girl leaves for a few hours and all of a sudden things have escalated into a holy war

These memes have been incredible y'all.

My point is that Hemalurgical strength boost is magical, it is done in a way that is similar to what is happening with F-Pewter, you directly add more of the attribute to your spiritweb. Some of the effects seen with Koloss can also be from the fact that they are Hemalurgic construct, not just humans with spikes. Or it is because their souls are more Invested, and as seen in TSM, more Invested soul typically grants physical improvements (greater strength, speed, reflexes). But there seems to be a general principle in Cosmere, where your baseline Physical state is your Spiritual Ideal filtered through Cognitive (but that has less of an effect). We see it in Feruchemy, F-Pewter has effect on your physical form. Similarly, healing works by aligning you to your spiritual self, if you change your spiritweb, you change the physical self (if you have Investiture). Singers change their spiritwebs by bonding spren, and that changes their physical forms rather drastically. Manipulating spiritweb can be used to effectively shapeshift or even grow wings (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/390/#e12722) I don't see why Hemalurgy should be except from this rather general effect, Spiritual change leads to Physical change. Spiritweb demands that Koloss is modified human with 4x the strength, and the body grows to accomodate. Sure, I am just saying that I think you won't be able to control the mutations to the extent you would want, and that there will be tradeoffs. Get more strength, become larger/bit disfigured and possibly dumber (if Koloss are any example). Get more senses, the sense organ in question enlarges/shifts/grows more numerous. You can get attribute upgrades from Hemalurgy, but there will be tradeoffs, it won't be simple direct upgrade without any cost (not including the fact you have to mutilate soul of someone else, unless they figure out programmable spikes). There is a reason we don't see anyone with attribute spikes who is not horribly mutated monster. Not in Era 1, or Era 2, or even the Scadrians in TSM, and I think the reason is that that it cannot be used safely, as per the limitation Sanderson outlined in the WoB I quoted.

We know that Scadrial had a thriving Worldhopper Trade going on (before Kelsier's antics), and we know Worldhoppers visited Scadrial prior to Alendi/Rashek. I think it's probable that Worldbringers had a significant enough knowledge of Realmatics to have known about the "metal glows" phenomenon - even if a given individual did not personally visit the Cognitive Realm themselves. I think it is likely that changing Scadrial's Feruchemists wasn't just about the interactions between Allomancy and Feruchemy, it also stifled what little Realmatic Theory was known and understood, and helped remove records of inventions like Gunpowder that TLR wanted surpressed. Guns themselves may have started as an import/knowledge share with other worlds pre-Rashek, as we not only see Khriss with a gun in M:SH (White Sand Spoilers):

I don’t know about that fam. If I didn’t already read Era 2 up till Bands of Mourning, I would’ve been totally lost on Secret History’s core ideas of Connection and the brief mention of Identity. Also now I have a theory on the Bands of Mourning, about potential ties to Ascension and the Cognitive Realm. I don’t get the complaint about Elend lol. I always thought he was one of the most humble characters in the whole series.

Alas, For thou hast betrayed us; Thine ascension into the land of taxes and debts has greatly troubled mine heart, for lo, Thou art a traitor. Thine very own soul shalt now be punished by thine own hands, alas, have enjoyment wallowing in thine own pyne.

Yup, if we're looking for countermeasures and solutions to combat Steelrunners that's a way to balance them without having to actually decrease their capability. There's a lot of ways to do this that don't even require access to Ettmetal or the Metallic arts, though it does make it easier. Literal speed trap. Going too fast indoors? Speed detector sets off A-Cadmium bubbles isolating the hallway, or something similar. Difficult to tune, and some work would need to be done to protect bystanders, but it's doable. Maybe use it in conjunction with the Leeching you suggested. IRL metal detectors or x-ray machines that ignore the strategies to hide metal from Steelsight. Here's a twist on an existing design: some automatic door closers are engineered so that the door closes at an adjustable rate. Try to force the door to close faster than that rate and the closing assembly resists. To limit Steelrunners, simply reverse the direction so that the door can only be opened at a specified rate and greatly increases resistance when someone attempts to open it faster. A lot of finetuning would have to be done to make it safe for other scenarios, like maybe disabling the mechanism in the event of a fire alarm just like how there are already fire alarm triggered doors, but it could significantly limit how fast a Steelrunner could move through a building. Sure a determined Steelrunner assassin could get around it, just set fire to the building and wait for the target to run out, but then no security system is infallible.

Not gonna lie, occasionally I had fun constructing a scene in my head where that one king from 1,000 years ago got frozen out of a lerasium bead for some petty reason of Rashek's, like taking too long to come around. King10: All right, Rashek, I've reconsidered your offer, and have decided it's too attractive to pass up. (Kneeling) I will join my nation to yours, and swear fealty to you as The Lord Ruler. Rashek: That's right, I'm The Lord Ruler to you now, don't you ever call me Rashek again. EVER. Your service is accepted, and your house shall be Great in my Final Empire! King10: Yes, Lord Ruler! Thank you, Lord Ruler! (bows deeply, waits expectantly) Rashek: Well? Why are you still here? King10: Ah, well, you see, when you got all of us kings together in a room yesterday and offered us positions of power under you if we would be the first to kneel, well, Eric Kell and Haestentz agreed immediately, and this morning I saw them flying - Rashek: Yes, those who supported my rule immediately were given great power. I call it Allomancy. I made them dominant! King10: Umm... That was... Just yesterday.... Rashek: Sorry, I'm all out of upgrades. King10: What? Rashek: You heard me. The Allomancy Dispensary is no longer open for business. Bye-bye! Walky-walky out the doorie for King10! No magic powers! King10: But... But --- Rashek: Do you dare to retract your fealty to my face?! (Begins Steelpushing King10 out the door) NARRATOR: King10 kept whining to TLR, and eventually, was made into the first Inquisitor to shut him up.

I'm going to put this in a separate post since it's a different thought, but I was brainstorming and came up with this outline for a game: The idea is to have a semi-blackout game by not telling the village which of the 3 scenarios they are in. And each of the scenarios is supposed to handle information differently, so not knowing the scenario is a significant handicap. It's just a skeleton without concrete rules, but I'm curious if anyone has feedback on the concept. Also I was thinking of this as a LG by default because this is loosely based on the original Awakening game by Wyrmhero, but another format might work better.

My bed. It counts. who killed your cousins mothers second cousin on her fathers side’s granddaughter named Henrietta?

I decided it was time to introduce myself. I’ve been on 17th Shard for a couple of months, but I’m just a reading. I've read all the books in the Cosmere, except for White Sand and unpublished works. Please excuse my English, I'm translating with the help of a translator.

I’m not understanding this logic out-of-universe. I guess it makes sense in-universe, since the plan to burn away Ruin’s body was a “fragile distant maybe” to begin with. But out-of-universe I don’t understand why Sanderson did this. Atium doesn’t fit into the 16 metals, even if you acknowledge it’s an alloy of pure atium and electrum. And if you remember correctly, the Mists also Snapped people into Mistings of the 16 base metals. I personally find the justification… flimsy. Besides now that I’m thinking about futuresight and the frailness of the plan succeeding, it’s not like it was ever guaranteed Elend (or someone) would know there were atium Mistings. After all he didn’t find out about atium Mistings until Yomen told him, then Vin presumably influenced him into going to the Pits of Hathsin to fulfill Leras’ plan. So why not go the extra step and create Mistborn? Also, if it was an army of Mistborn it would perfectly reference the title of the series. And that would make me happy lol. So this is why Ruin says he cares about life and change, but doesn’t comfort people after death like Preservation does? Instead, he revels in death and decay and destruction. Not sure where you were trying to go this. Kelsier heard the thoughts of all the people in Urteau and the crew, not just the mad or spiked. He did the same to Spook’s mind after his spike was removed. And of course, he heard Vin’s thoughts after her earring was removed. I understand now! So the Shard of Preservation and the Well of Ascension’s power can’t be taken up by anyone. They can only be taken by those with personalities in tune with Preservation’s attributes - protection, stability, stasis, the status quo etc. People like Vin, Rashek, or Alendi. I gotta love the bit where it’s revealed Sazed is Connected to both Shards cuz of the journey he’s gone through his life. As well as the reveal of a nuanced aspect of Ruin, which I now see in how Sazed has been influencing the Elendel Basin and the Southern Continent. I’m gonna think this is Preservation, but I’m now experienced enough in Cosmere magic shenanigans to know how he’s speaking to Sazed’s mind. I need to read more, and maybe I’ll discuss this someday. Maybe it’s using the same method as Leras telling Kelsier to Survive? Is that mechanic found in Forgery or the Shaod, by any chance? Thanks for the explanation. But now my head hurts when it comes to the Terris Prophecies. I understand that Vin breaking Zane’s atium demonstrates that reactions to a future possibility, or reactions to actions that thread through a future possibility, fracture a possibility into more. Interesting, great. But then if future possibilities fracture the more in time someone looks then how were the Terris Prophecies so… correct. Oh well, I have my own theories about that. Fueled by my analysis of Kelsier’s precognitive plan to give Vin the Mists / Shard. I get the Thanatos Gambit and The Plan tropes. But how was The Plan a Batman Gambit or Xanatos Gambit? You’re spot on with Elend. His future vision was closer to The Plan’s resolution than Ascended Rashek’s vision during, or theoretical later visions made by Allomantic futuresight. But Elend still had a lot of room for error. He was seeing into the future the same way Ruin does. The same way Kelsier did when Preservation showed him a future vision. Elend was temporarily Connected to Kelsier, Vin, Ruin’s essence, the future, the past, and everything in the battlefield. Seeing the future possibilities within those Connections, but understanding them all because of Atium’s mind expansion. Based on Atium and Kelsier’s vision, he probably saw the ”thousands upon thousands” of future possibilities that could result from his current action - the fight against Marsh. He liked the general implication of the future vision, so he let Marsh kill him and hoped it would come true. But because Elend was glimpsing into the futures of Vin and Ruin - who constantly see into the future - the general implication from his own future vision would’ve been horribly inaccurate and even less guaranteed to come true. Yes you did Kelsier’s plan for Marsh supports this, I think. As well as the fragile nature of the atium Mistings or The Hero of Ages. Yup, I definitely think Leras saw something special in Kelsier’s thoughts and future. So did Vin. So did Sazed. I don’t believe any of this for a second. There are many implications that indicate Leras wasn't just setting the plan in motion, he was actively facilitating it. Everything he did with Kelsier (pits, shadow, vision) and his choice of Vin were active and happening right now rather than thousands of years ago. Secret History confirms he “made it work last time” with the Lord Ruler - maneuvering Rashek into the position of Ascending and preventing Ruin’s freedom. It confirms that back then, he predicted Alendi would give up the power. There’s this line after Vin frees Ruin: “It was going to happen,” Preservation said. “I thought… Maybe…” To me, this indicates Leras predicted Ruin would break free this cycle. Even before he imprisoned Ruin, he knew he would break free one day. That the Well of Ascension would only delay Ruin. Leras did do something. He programmed the Mists to dripfeed into Vin, Connecting her to Preservation. As for Leras not predicting Rashek would soon die… that’s an interesting assumption. It’s true Leras said he loves Rashek’s immortality and stability, even though he disagrees with Rashek’s actions. But not wanting to kill Rashek doesn’t match up with having to thread through The Plan - to get both Shards into the grasps of The Hero of Ages. Saying that Leras didn’t remember the plan is a bit… complicated. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t threading through the plan or knew aspects of it. Remember that Fuzz is a shadow of the Vessel who chose Vin as his successor, or commanded Kelsier to survive, or put Rashek into place. Let’s be honest, Rashek needed to die for The Hero of Ages to be created. He would’ve prevented anyone from going to the Well. He would’ve prevented anyone from going to the Pits of Hathsin or Trustwarren. He would’ve killed Vin, Kelsier, and Sazed - essential pieces of Leras’ plan.

I want to break something. I honestly dont care what it is. I'm so done with people in general. *sigh*

I’m not sure. There are definitely things that you can’t do if you keep adding players. I definitely noticed it was getting hard to meaningfully read and engage with every other player in the most recent AG due to how many players there were (…at the beginning at least, coincidentally the only part I was around for, but regardless). And something like a 100-player game just sounds unplayable. Going down to the other extreme of really small games, it seems like you get more opportunities to focus on and engage with the fewer players you have. Which is a pretty good segue into the next question, because if the game ends too soon, then you don’t really have the full opportunity to take advantage of that. If the paradigm for progress & winning is based on player deaths, and the rate of deaths is fixed, then small games will be shorter. I see no way around this. Therefore, if you want longer games, there are basically two categories of ways to do that. You can either adjust the rate of deaths or change up the paradigm so that player deaths aren't the de-facto measure of progress & victory. Adjust the rate of deaths. The low-hanging fruit here is that we can and sometimes should probably avoid having there be a bunch of extra kills flying around in small games. Including tertiary kills (ie coinshots, serial killers, etc) above and beyond the standard execution+NK duo found in most games is a Choice, and one you can reasonably just say “no” to. Beyond that, we could take a more proactive approach to fundamentally lower the rate of deaths below the traditional level of 2/cycle. A naive solution might be to give everyone an extra life. I think this is obviously quite a bad solution, and I will duel pistols at dawn with anyone who seriously thinks it’s a good one. I would find it very frustrating. Functionally speaking, it would just make everything in the game happen twice as slowly. However, on further examination and soul-searching, I don’t think the problem with “give everyone an extra life” is actually that it makes the game slower. I don’t think I actually fundamentally have any beef with it taking longer for players to die. The problem with the idea is really that it’s entirely fricking boring and unimaginative, and utterly devoid of interesting tactical or strategical implications. Other than slowing things down, it changes nothing about how you play the game. The optimal approach is literally just, grit your teeth and kill each person twice, rarely-if-ever deviating or turning aside once you’ve committed to killing someone. To put it another way, my issue with “give everyone an extra life” isn’t that it slows down the game, it’s that it JUST slows down the game. That’s it. It doesn’t do anything else, it doesn’t add anything, it doesn’t increase the number of meaningful decisions you get to make over the course of the game. It’s incredibly lazy. If you’re going to stretch a game out to twice as long as it was, you’d better double the amount of content and strategy and meat in your game as well, or else the pacing is going to be shot to hell. <shameless advertisement>As an example of one approach to lowering the rate of deaths in a way that’s actually interesting, I’d like to talk about my Reckoners game. One of the fundamental premises of the game is that many of the players are high epics that possess prime invincibilities, making them very hard to kill. There’s quite a bit of diversity in how different invincibility powers work, ranging from “you always die without any flip and then reincarnate a cycle later“ to “you control two accounts, and cannot be harmed unless both accounts are tapped at the same time” to “everyone around you is subject to a compulsion preventing them from deliberately taking hostile action against you.” The rate at which players die in my Reckoners game is likely going to be noticeably less than average, due to all these crazy powers. But of course, it’s not impossible to kill high epics. Each of these powers has logical drawbacks and potential blind spots. On top of that, each epic has a weakness that makes them completely vulnerable. What this means in practice is that if you try to kill someone and it doesn’t work, well then you did it wrong. It’s a puzzle you need to solve, and one that likely requires you to make social deductions and educated guesses about other players. If you’re clever enough, you can take down a high epic on your first try with no backup, and on the other hand if you turn your brain off and just try to brute force everything, you are going to be less effective. Compare this to the “everyone’s a thug” game where if you fail to kill someone, the only conclusion is “oh well, guess I need to do that exact same thing again.” I would argue that the difference is night and day.</shameless advertisement> Here’s another random thought. I have no earthly idea how this would work, but I bet there’s some kind of interesting SE game premise where each player controls multiple pieces, and a player isn't necessarily knocked out from just losing one of their pieces. Coup is a social deduction game that more or less achieves exactly that, if any of you folks have played it. Of course, Coup is also a free-for-all game, whereas I’d want to try something that preserves the V/E uninformed majority vs. informed minority dynamic common in SE. Another option here, which is pure sleight-of-hand but arguably still pretty effective, is to have mechanics that allow players that have been killed to keep participating somehow. Kas seems to be a fan of this angle, given LG92 or the last BT. Letting dead players keep participating probably won’t make a game actually any longer, but it might still feel longer, because your experience of the game won’t be cut short by dying. The thing is, I would contend that making the game feel longer and more substantial is honestly mostly just as good as making it actually longer. Change up the paradigm so that player deaths aren't the de-facto measure of progress & victory. Imo, this very loosely means imitating games like Avalon or SH. These types of games are still about figuring out who is trustworthy and who is a traitor, but progress is measured by something other than “killing people on the enemy team.” Because of this, you have more flexibility with how long you want the game to last, and smaller games don’t necessarily need to end quickly. I honestly think there’s a lot of depth to these kinds of setups and that they probably haven’t been explored very fully. For that matter, I really don’t believe Avalon/SH is the pinnacle of what games of this type could do. I would be remiss if I didn’t reference Fifth’s Alice in Wonderland game. The game was actually three short-form games in a trench coat, and… It worked. It was pretty great! Imo, that was because each of the three minigames was fresh and creative and really fun and not particularly because the overarching point system was intrinsically very engaging… but it didn’t need to be. This is a practical example of a game where death wasn’t the final measure of progress, and this allowed it to subvert the usual game length constraints. Here's another angle of approach. While the time loop in the BT Kas and I ran was still basically a game where winning was contingent on player deaths (for the village, there was a specific villain that needed to die -- all other deaths got reset, but the loop was still structured around killing and flipping players, with the goal of killing the correct one), one could conceive of other time loop games that don’t work exactly like that. The only hard requirement in a time loop game is that there has to be some way to break the loop and end the game, but nobody says that it has to involve killing someone. If you had a time loop game with a different objective, then there’s no reason it couldn’t last as long as you wanted. The trick of course is coming up with an objective that’s interesting and fun in practice. Conclusion At the end of the day, the real challenge isn’t contriving a way to make the game last longer. The real challenge is making sure players actually have something to do with the extra time. To these ends, I think it’s worth asking, how much hidden information is there for players to find in your game? Information asymmetry is what makes SE tick. It’s what makes any social deduction game tick. I think a valid way of defining the “small player count” problem is actually just that small population games have fewer role/alignment slots, and thus there’s fundamentally less information, less stuff for players to figure out and solve. This is why “give everyone an extra life” simply falls flat in addressing the problem, because it doesn’t change how much information there is to figure out. If you’re going to write a game that runs for a long time with a smaller number of players, you need to address the fact that small games tend to suffer a deficit of hidden role/alignment information. You need to make up for the lack by adding back hidden information in some way, shape, or form. Maybe that’s adding crunchy epic power interactions and secret weaknesses. Maybe that’s breaking the game down into minigames and giving each minigame a separate and fresh distro. Certainly there are other ways to do it that I haven’t covered or even thought of! But I’m quite certain there always has to be something. The kick in the teeth, of course, is that all of this is actual work. The standard formula that works for bigger SE games is well-explored and well-liked, it can be used as a starting point with relatively little effort and yields good results. It’s a genuinely good thing and it’s easy to take for granted how convenient it is, until you try to do something new. P.S. To clarify, I am not saying that I hate Thugs. I think games with 1-2 Thugs can create interesting tradeoffs and tactics, where the Thug is incentivized to be baity and draw more attention from the opposing team. But if everyone’s a Thug then no one is, and you don’t even get any of those juicy tactical considerations. ...Anyways, all 4 of your questions were quite good, but I'm tired and that's enough talk from me someone else can share their thoughts on the last 2 questions ig.

Hey everyone! I'm back with some more Cosmere music, this time based on "The Emperor's Soul". I hope you all enjoy it!!