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  1. 39 points
    Here to write down my opinions on how Shallan's past all fits together. There's so many ways to interpret it, especially when you bring WoBs in. I like mine, and I think it has some interesting implications about the nature of deadeyes. Shallan bonded Testament at a young age. Probably some family troubles that drove her to it? Something giving her reasons to want to hide in the gardens and dream. As we have seen, the Cryptics have been very eager to bond humans though. Recall how Shallan saw several of them in Kharbranth? Pattern was present when Testament bonded Shallan, and may have even been following her around for years afterward. So Testament and Pattern were part of the same group who saw the coming need for Radiants and went looking for humans. They found Shallan. Testament bonded her first. It lasted for... a couple of years? Months? We don't know exactly. But the bond eventually broke. Pattern is considered brave at least in part because of his willingness to bond her after what happened to Testament. Now, I think that Shallan advanced all the way to (at least) her second truth with Testament. Her third ideal. This is because I prefer to assume that all orders get their Shardblades at the same level. Could be a faulty assumption... but until we've seen otherwise, it feels like the best bet that she would summon Testament in self defense against her mother after she had spoken the usual number of ideals (3) to obtain a Shardblade. Then things go south. She breaks off her bond with Testament... Or does she? What does it mean to break a bond with your Nahel spren? The books so far have suggested they become a deadeye. And, well, okay... they do. Obviously that's what Testament is. But I don't think they necessarily have to follow the rules of the deadeyes we've seen. I think it's very clear that, despite Testament's state, she and Shallan still have some shred of a bond between them. She knows where Shallan is, and followed her around. (plus more that I'll get into momentarily) In Shallan's final chapter she talks specifically about how odd it is that she had powers after killing Testament and before finding Pattern: So when Hoid shows up one year at Middlefest, holds up some spheres of Stormlight, and Shallan seems to interact with them briefly? That's because she still has the tatters of her bond with Testament. There's... something in here about the imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram that matters, but it's very difficult to speculate on what that means for Shallan's bond. Anyways, then we get to the Soulcasting of the goblet in TWoK. People have often assumed that her bond with Pattern allowed this. I don't think it was him. Note this line: The voice Shallan spoke with in that scene wasn't Pattern. Or at least it dosn't seem to be. Kind of an odd line no? It makes sense though. Testament was following her. She's "dead", but they still have a bond. Shallan can still summon her deadeye as a Shardblade. She can still make use of their bond to Soulcast. And that's what happens in her rooms in Kharbranth. I think the truth that she seems to speak in that scene ("I'm terrified") was either an advancement in her bond with Testament, or maybe it was a slight reparation of it. Not clear how "repairing" a bond like that works. It's somewhere at this point that she begins to bond Pattern as well. She speaks her first truth to Pattern at the end of TWoK ("I killed my father"), and that's why he begins to manifest a few days later on the deck of Wind's Pleasure. The biggest problem with this idea is that she believes the blade to be Pattern on several occasions. She's an unreliable narrator to the extreme. I absolutely think this could be one giant self-deception. I don't think we have any clear descriptions of the Blades well enough to say if the descriptions do or don't match unfortunately. But I'm sure this will bother some people. Nevertheless, I think this is what Shallan is admitting when she says she had two Shardblades in chapter 115. In any case, at the end of Words of Radiance Shallan speaks her 2nd truth to Pattern putting them at "level 3". Meanwhile, her bond with Testament is still there. There's a notable WoB that Shallan is "a step higher than Kaladin" at the end of WoR. This may be because she originally advanced with Testament to "level 4" and that doesn't entirely regress just because she broke her oaths. (Kaladin being at level 3 at the end of WoR) It's also possible that Shallan originally made it to "level 3" (Shardblade level) and then her "I'm terrified" actually advanced their bond further. Remember when Adolin asks about Shardplate in OB chapter 15? There were theories that her bond with Pattern had advanced this far and she's holding back. This always bugged me. Why should she have trouble admitting this? Testament makes it all make sense. She can't summon Shardplate because it would require her to acknowledge her bond with Testament--the one that's far enough along to grant Plate. But she's not there yet. Where's Shallan at the end of RoW? Both of her bonds are now at level 4, with "I killed Testament" being her 3rd truth with Pattern. Shallan has not just one but TWO more truths to go, perhaps. One for each spren. EDIT: Added qoute about the holes still in Shallan's past, and a mention of the "two Shardblades" quote. EDIT #2: I've reevaluated some of my opinions and added a bunch of analysis on page 3 of this topic:
  2. 21 points
    Truth #4: "I killed everyone! Roshar has been an illusion this whole time!"
  3. 19 points
    I don't know how much of this is my own original thoughts at this point... I'm sure some of it is coming from others, but I've forgotten who exactly, and where. In any case, I've referenced these ideas a few times in the last few months so I wanted to write them out in one place. Behold, the great mystery that is Kaladin's chapter icon: We know that this symbol isn't without meaning. ALL of the character chapter icons show something related to the character that's not particular hard to figure it out. (well, most of them--Taln's still has a bit of mystery to it as well) Obviously with Kaladin's we have some spears, but there's got to be more to it than that. Brandon has essentially confirmed that there's something of significance in it that we don't know about yet: So let's break it down. What are we looking at? It's got 5 spears. Four down below and a fifth sticking out further. The fifth one has some kind of banner tied to it, with a glyph that's somewhat obscured. There's also some kind of circular ring shape. Not quite a crescent. Lastly are some sketchy lines all parallel to the spears. It's hard to tell what these are meant to depict. Perhaps the lower four spears are meant to be indicative of Bridge Four? Seems like a reasonable notion, but not much more to say on that. It's important to note that we don't know what the glyph is. We've tried to decipher it in the glyphs threads... But even knowing the glyph phonemes doesn't make "translating" glyphs very easy, and this one is hard to get a clear idea of. I could also swear that I've asked Isaac about the ring shape, I think at JordanCon 2018... Unfortunately, if I'm not imagining this then I never bothered to record it in Arcanum... I was interested in the idea because I wondered if perhaps it was depicting an eclipse. This would be odd, as Roshar's moons work in a way such that eclipses aren't a thing that happens there. But I recall Isaac confirming that it is NOT depicting an eclipse. Take it or leave it, I guess. I didn't give much more thought about this icon, after working through some of these questions in the past... Until after Rhythm of War. Somebody (I think on Reddit) was asking about the glyph here, and they wondered if it might depict a tower. And I think that's a pretty reasonable guess. To be honest, I had wondered in the past if it might be some kind of spinoff of Dalinar's own tower-shaped glyph. We see the Kholin glyph looks fairly similar to the one here, and the "khokh" of Dalinar's glyphpair is depicted as a tower. It would make sense that Kaladin might adopt some kind of Kholin glyph eventually, after he essentially joined Dalinar's camp at the end of TWoK. He was granted some land in Alethkar by the Kholins, in the Crownlands. Maybe there's a connection though. In any case, I do have to agree that the glyph looks somewhat tower-like. But Kholin/Dalinar connections aside, why would Kaladin pick up a tower-shaped glyph? Especially in the current setting of the books, where a tower has pretty strong ties to THE tower, Urithiru? Now let me dig up the TWoK Chapter 53 epigraph that I've referenced in this post title: I was never quite sure what to make of this epigraph. The "tower and crown" are part of Dalinar's glyphpair, so it always seemed suggestive of him to me. But then the spear doesn't fit at all. Many people take "spear" as a strong indicator of Kaladin, but I've never been happy with how he could have anything to do with a "tower" or a "crown". The whole "fallen title" bit could easily just refer to the Knights Radiant in general, or perhaps some role within their number. But then I got to thinking about what might happen in Stormlight Archive book 5... Many people think Dalinar will fall to Odium. I don't--some arguments here, but that's beside the point. Many people think Dalinar will reunite the pieces of Honor and Ascend, or something similar to this--I'm betting this. Many people think Dalinar will simply die. But NOT many people seem to think Dalinar will come out of book 5... the same person that he is now. And this makes me wonder who will take up his position as the King of Urithiru, and the leader of the Radiants. Now, I've seen some people argue (reasonably) that the Radiants don't need a monarch. It's not entirely clear what their leadership structure looked like in the past. I think it's possible that they will continue on with some kind of... representative democracy type leadership? But I think they are much more likely to pick out a primary leader to unite under. This is what seems to have naturally happened with Dalinar, and I don't see why they wouldn't want it to continue that way. So... if Dalinar is out of the picture, for one reason or another, who becomes the boss? Navani is the obvious first choice! She's bonded to Urithiru itself, after all. She's a queen. She's used to leadership. She's a bondsmith. Perfect.... But I'm just not convinced. I honestly don't really get the sense that Navani would WANT this job. She has finally embraced her scholar side. She finally has the opportunity to be the engineer that she has always wanted to be. She's knocking that job out of the park I bet. And it's a REALLY important job too! I just... can't believe she would be very jazzed to get pulled back into the world of politics. So who else do you pick? Jasnah isn't a terrible candidate, but she's already Queen of Alethkar so there's a conflict of interest here. The same one that pushed Dalinar out the door, practically. And I kind of get the sense that she doesn't want the authority of Queen of the Radiants either. And.... That's pretty much the end of the list I can come up with... Except for Kaladin. Kaladin who has single-handedly saved EVERYONE multiple times. Kaladin who is famous and respected by pretty much everyone. Kaladin who has been on the front lines of the war as well as at the top with kings and queens. Kaladin who easily has practically no political ties that bring a conflict of interest. Kaladin who was one of the first new Radiants. Kaladin who has remarkable leadership skills. Kaladin who has broad support among the lower class darkeyes of Vorin nations and no political baggage with others. Kaladin who is scarred from his time on the front lines in innumerable ways and who REALLY DOES need to step back a bit from the battlefield after this one last mission to wrap up book 5. Kaladin who is the de facto leader of the Windrunners--the order associated with Jezrien, who was a king and the leader of the Heralds. I think Kaladin is perfect for the job! So back to the Death Rattle... What could the fallen title refer to? Not entirely clear, but perhaps it refer to the leader of the Radiants? I'm not sure if it's "fallen" as some reference back to the Recreance and the Radiants of the past or if it's just referring to Dalinar dropping that title by one means or another. The associated of the spear to Kaladin is easy of course. The tower and the crown could simply refer to Urithiru and his role as leader/king of the Radiants. Could it be that this is precisely what we see depicted in Kaladin's chapter icon? Again, the spears are obvious. The banner bearing the glyph of what seems to be a tower--Urithiru, a symbol of the Knights Radiant. And the circular shape around the edge, representing a simple crown.
  4. 17 points
    Hmm, I don't want to double post, but it's been quite a while, and it is not letting me add photos. Slight... (maturity?, idk how to tag this one):
  5. 14 points
  6. 14 points
    One important fact I would remind others: Testament is a name of convenience given to Shallan's first Cryptic only at the very end of RoW. Her original name was Pattern, because all Cryptic's names are Pattern (referring to different patterns, but to human speech their names are all the same). Thus when reading Shallan's dialogue and thoughts in the earlier books, any time she says or thinks "Pattern" there is intentional ambiguity about which she is referring. Thus, when Shallan activates the Oathgate and calls out to Pattern, this doesn't necessarily mean she wasn't using Testament. I'm of the opinion that Shallan is using Testament as her sword all throughout WoR. In fact her first time summoning Pattern as a sword is in Oathbringer Chapter 15 when Adolin requests to see the sword and Shallan has a somewhat unexplainable panic attack. Pattern initially comments Implying something important was being done when summoning Pattern as a sword for Adolin. Eventually she creates the Radiant persona to abate the panic attack. The panic attack and generating of a new persona make more sense in the context of RoW: Shallan is about to summon a shardblade that is distinct from the one she was previously using, and she can't confront that reality yet. This is also the same chapter where Pattern drops his disturbing line: “It’s because you hate me,” Pattern said softly. “I can die, Shallan. I can go. They will send you another to bond.” e: Another point. Testament's spren friend mentioned finding her on an island far to the east. It's the Shattered Plains Oathgate platform, the last location Shallan summoned Testament.
  7. 14 points
  8. 14 points
  9. 13 points
    So, there has been a lot of debate about the Recreance recently. I feel there are a few specific things we can say are very likely, however, and I'm making this post to sum those up. TL;DR: The Recreance likely occurred on a single day — or at least during a very small time period — shortly after the imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram, and during or soon after the abandonment of Urithiru, which had already begun to fail before said imprisonment. The Feverstone Keep vision is accurate: Mishram's capture happened immediately before the Recreance: Moat of the Knights abandoned their oaths on the same day: Urithiru was likely "failing" before Mishram's capture (though this is not certain): Tanavast's death was post-Recreance, but was a protracted event Confirmed by WoB[17] Either the enslavement of the broken singers didn't happen for decades, or the Recreance was decades apart from BAM's capture References:
  10. 13 points
    Friends, this week we have a treat for you! Nozomi Matsuoka (Instagram, DeviantArt) might not have the largest of Cosmere fanart portfolios, but the quality of her work speaks for itself. You might have seen the commissions she’s done for Argent (Jasnah, because of course he is going to commission a Jasnah, but also this excellent Maya from a critical Rhythm of War scene), and this time we wanted to see what painterly wonders she will come up with if we gave her what was arguably the most challenging June commission - the gems and spheres from Roshar. We had high hopes for her, and she easily exceeded them in a pair of illustrations - one showing a myriad of gems and spheres carelessly spilled over a desk that might be Navani’s (which you can see below); and one that shows off a lot of the intricate details of each denomination, plus a few different types of Light... You can check that one out over on our public Patreon post, along with all the other artwork we've commissioned thus far!
  11. 12 points
    Today I got a lego dragon for less than twenty dollars. Faith in humanity: restored.
  12. 10 points
    If Dalinar does do that, I'll start rooting for Vyre to shank Dalinar next
  13. 9 points

    From the album pride Month stuff (Cosmere)

    Just a strange doodle past pride month Special thanks to @Zephrun's Imperium for getting me into the ship
  14. 9 points
    I have always had... a soft spot I guess, for Lin Davar. Yes, he was a despicable person who did terrible things, but in a way I feel that I understand him. To me, he is one of, if not the most, tragic character in the Cosmere. His fall started with one of the most selfless acts I can think of: his defense of his daughter. He basically walked in on his wife and her friend trying to kill Shallan. He fought against them, and was wounded. He still fought, and probably would have fought to the death if Shallan hadn't summoned Testament and ended things. When she did, what was his response? He cradled her, tried to soothe her, hid her actions, and most importantly took the blame. Not only from society as a whole, but also from Shallan's brothers. What is more, he kept her secret about being a Shardbearer safe to prevent her from being targeted again. He didn't even try to claim the Shardblade, or get Shallan to use it again when to do so would have made his own social position secure. Even at the end, he kept those secrets safe. What was his reward for doing what any good father would do? He became reviled by everyone, including his own family. He bore that to his death, and never tried to explain what really happened. The closest he came was with Helaran when he told him that "you don't know what you think you know." That broke him and let Odium in through the cracks. He became filled with hatred, and fell. And yet, even when he fell, he felt remorse and sorrow. He tells Shallan so when she met Hoid for the first time, and frankly I believe him. He knew that he had fallen, and he regretted it deeply. And yet, the one thing that he could have done to get some modicum of respectability back from others, namely betraying Shallan, he never did, or even considered. Of all the characters who deserves a redemption arc, he tops my list. He deserved it more than Roshone, more than Moash, more than even Dalinar in a way. He didn't get one, and the irony is that the person who ended that possibility was the person who he gave up everything for. As a father who likes to think that I would be as much of a defender of my daughters, this is the ultimate tragedy.
  15. 9 points
  16. 9 points
    Ask not where I find these
  17. 8 points
    I changed my name back. It was weird as DancingQueen.
  18. 8 points
    Those June art pieces just keep on coming, don't they? Let us know if you'd like us to do more of these simpler but more numerous art commissions in the future - we were thinking we'd those maybe once or twice a year, but art reveal season is fun season! And speaking of, this week we've got the King's Drop for you all! Paintweaver (Instagram, Tumblr) is another artist we've wanted to work with for a long time, and the relative simplicity of this illustration (plus scheduling luck) finally gave us this opportunity. The illustration is absolutely gorgeous, and the shifting smoky images inside it are an amazing representation of the captured Thrill. Fingers crossed that the Kholins keep this safe and don't go and, I don't know, throw it in the ocean or something! We've got a few more versions of this, with slightly different colors and backgrounds, and we'll release those to our supporters some time in the future, once art reveal season relaxes a bit.
  19. 8 points
    I've been meaning to come here and make an addendum... When I first made this theory there were several pieces to it that I was unsure about. Pieces which had a safe, easy answer or, alternatively, a more extreme and probably unlikely answer. Most notably, I'm thinking of the assertions that Shallan used Testament throughout Words of Radiance, including in the chasm and Oathgate. (if that surprises you, don't bother questioning me here--you can read the arguments for these ideas earlier in the topic) Ultimately, I figured it would encourage more discussion and be more fun if I posted a more provocative version of the theory. But after letting things stew for a while, I definitely think I've landed with a more conservative interpretation of events. Shallan Shardblade References Shallan uses her Shardblade(s) only a handful of times, and doesn't think about them many times beyond that. Here are all of them that I can think of in the first two books, with a few others... If you think I'm missing one that's of any note, please let me know! Not much to say on this one. It's the first hint that she has a Shardblade though. There's reason I've highlighted "ten heartbeats" though... And here's the next hint. Also not much to tackle... Worth mentioning that I think this is Testament speaking, rather than Pattern. But I've covered this, including basis for that opinion, in my original post. I suppose it's a bit interesting that she claims to have "promised herself" not to use her Shardblade. We never saw this in her flashbacks. Could be a very minor moment without much more to say, but it's also very possible that this refers to when she broke her bond with Testament. In light of something we see a big later, again don't forget about this repeated insistence that it requires ten heartbeats to summon her blade. Another mention of the ten heartbeats... I'll get to my point on this soon. The most exciting thing here, however, is that it's our first description of the Blade she used to kill her mother. (or at least that's very much what it seems to be) "A silvery sword". Nothing here, but including the quote for completeness. Okay, this is a juicy one. Especially because someone asked Brandon about it in December, as to whether we see Pattern or Testament here. Brandon RAFO'd but also said, "I think this one is pretty clear." Let's be clear: Brandon often says things are clear when they very much are not, or vice versa! But I think he's rigth about this one. It's notable, I think, that Pattern doesn't seem to be present. Further up the page, we see that he was. (It seems, at least, that he imitated Jasnah's voice to confuse Tyn.) But at the beginning of the excerpt I've quoted, we see Shallan call Pattern and he doesn't respond. It's simple to assume that he simply didn't answer... But at the end we also have Red claiming that a voice told them to come help her. This all suggests to me that Pattern left to get help, and wasn't present when Shallan summoned her Blade. This doesn't mean she couldn't have summoned Pattern. But I DO think it's a clue that's at least a big suggestive. The description ("briliantly silver") is a BIG clue. We saw in WoR chapter 3 that she killed her mother with a "silvery sword". And we're dealing with two quotes from the same book, which makes me extra comfortable with the assumption that attention was paid to continuity on this description. I think Shallan used Testament to kill Tyn. So why have I been harping on the ten heartbeats thing? I've theorized previously that perhaps Testament isn't subject to that limit. And of course in our pre-RoW reads of these books, it's easy to ASSUME Shallan is correct at the end of Words of Radiance when she says she doesn't need ten heartbeats after all. And, well, she is partly correct. Partly. When it comes to Pattern. But what if Testament does indeed require ten heartbeats? What if these insistences on ten heartbeats are not entirely wrong? When she says "I don't need ten heartbeats" (and then buys herself more time by Lightweaving a distraction) she isn't wrong. To summon Testament she does need ten heartbeats. Also worth noting that Testament doesn't scream at her. (unless there's some next-level mental blocks going on, which isn't impossible) My theory on this was that Shallan being Testament's Radiant means she behaves a bit differently than other deadeyes. Part of me wondered if we see the Blade appear in less than ten heartbeats here... But it's too hard to say, especially with her heart beating pretty fast. Actually, I guess I lean towards the assumption that she DID wait ten heartbeats. It takes me ten seconds to read that line from Taln with barely any natural pauses. A frightened person's heart definitely beats 10 times in about that long. But that's not proof it's not Pattern, so this doesn't tell us much. And here's the next big one--the chasm. Now... it's possible (in my opinion) to rationalize that this is the same "silvery" Blade. Silvery with a soft glow of garnet seems... not impossible. But I don't think this is the intent at all. This is Pattern. It's notable that it glows, like all "living" Blades we've seen, from a glyph. Contrasted with Testament, who is a dull silver with no such glow. (edit: eh.... well, Testament was alive when she killed her mother, so maybe this isn't quite right. maybe the idea is simply that Testament happens to be more silvery and Pattern glows a more distinct garnet?) And there's also the length-change thing, again strongly indicating Pattern. There's a few other references in this chapter that I haven't quoted. One at the very end of 72, but I think this is everything notable. So here's where she uses her Blade to open the Oathgate. Again, I've argued this could be Testament... But I think that's unlikely. It's probably Pattern, just as it appears. (despite the insistence that it's the Blade she used to kill her mother) Some have proposed this as another truth for Shallan. I was originally very skeptical of this, but... Maybe? I skipped a reference of her holding the Blade with Mraize, but zero details there. And here's Shallan reliving the death of her mother. This is Testament as a Blade of course, despite Pattern's lie. Another description of her Shardblade. "A long, thin weapon nearly as tall as she was." Unfortunately we don't see a description of the length elsewhere. Almost certainly Pattern here. Aside from the general sense that she seems to have moved on from using Testament at this point, we know that Testament's inkspren business partner found her far in the east somewhere in the timeframe of Oathbringer. If Shallan had used Testament in Urithiru (or Kholinar, later) then she wouldn't have been in the east still. (And if Shallan had used her since then, she would have been pulled away from the partner after being found--which obviously never happened) It's safe to assume there are no more Testament uses after WoR. There are several other Oathbringer references... some in Urithiru... One when she draws it to activate the Kholinar Oathgate. These can ass be dismissed. And here's Shallan stepping out of Shadesmar into Thaylen City. Long and thin matches the Patternblade description in OB 115, so safe to assume this is Pattern once again I think. Slight curve is a new detail we've never seen mentioned before. So Pattern also has a faint latticework pattern along the Blade. And there's not many references in Rhythm of War because Shallan spends most of it in Shadesmar. She draws it when dealing with Ialai, but there's no descriptions there. Testament is with her business partner at that point of course, so it was Pattern there regardless. And that's it. Shallan's Truths And then we come to the truths... One of the biggest things I was trying to explain by reaching hard with the original concept here was the timing of when Shallan gets Patternblade. The biggest issue that I'm left with, by walking back from the idea that Shallan used Testament to operate the Oathgate an didn't reach "level 3" with Pattern until "I killed my mother" in Urithiru... Is explaining how she had Pattern at an earlier time. Let me break it down... I'm pretty dead set on the idea that "I'm terrified" was NOT a truth spoken to Pattern. See original post for this argument. It seems to be a different voice that spoke to her there (surely Testament). Rather, the first truth spoken to Pattern seems to have been "I killed my father" at the end of TWoK. But we don't have any other clear truths from Shallan between that point and the chasm scene, where (as we covered above) she clearly seems to have utilized Pattern. Someone has pointed out "deeper truth" reference when she operates the Oathgate, where she sort of speaks a truth in insisting that her Shardblade is different. You COULD take that as her 2nd truth, giving her a Shardblade at the standard level JUST before she needs to use it. But it doesn't help with the chasm scene, and that one is pretty darn compelling to me. So what are our options? I'm wrong about "I'm terrified"... But I'm firmly against that idea. Shallan spoke some earlier truth to Pattern and "I killed my father" is her second. On one hand... this could explain why we never see a clear First Ideal exchange with Pattern. (though I've never seen a strong need for that) The idea here being that she regressed like Kaladin did with Syl in WoR. She didn't kill Pattern like Testament... just caused their bond to fade... ... until she spoke "I killed my father" and pulled him back out of limbo. But I really hate this for the idea that she has blanked out on TWO spren bonds prior to TWoK. That's just silly... and difficult to believe. Maybe Lightweavers get Blades at "level 2". Don't love this without more suggestive proof. Especially since RoW showed us Lightweavers who have a spren but no Blade. Maybe Lightweaver truths make them advance at different rates and she got to "level 3" sooner than we realize? When speaking "I killed my father" there's an interesting line about "stronger truths make a more powerful bond" (paraphrasing) Something about her bond to Testament is allowing Patternblade at an earlier point? This could go lots of different directions... Maybe it's a simple consequence of already bonding a spren up to some point. If second honorspren wants to bond a Windrunner (for who knows what reason) I'm inclined to think they could advance their bond swiftly and maybe even without Ideal reruns? Maybe it's a combination with #4 and truths count for more in such cases? Maybe Shallan being more Invested than usual makes it possible to have a Shardblade at a lower level? Maybe something else? I think I'm inclined to assume #5 at the moment... Maybe with a bit of #4 going on as well...?
  20. 8 points
    Thank you for writing this up! I've been wanting to go back through Shallan's chapters and try to put the timeline together. I agree with @Jofwu that "I'm terrified" belongs to Testament. See the section from WoK Chapter 45 where she says it: The way I read this now is that she has not tried to summon Testament since childhood, but when she tries again Testament demands another truth. But instead of the blade summoning, she gets dumped into Shadesmar. Testament's voice gets described as a "cold whisper". It feels very different from the "I killed my father" Truth, where it reads very much as Pattern's first truth (the Cryptic explains how the whole business works, rather than Testament's terseness above). I think I'll contribute by including the WoR Shardblade summonings here: Shallan kills Tyn with a "brilliantly silver Blade" in chapter 34, because the Ghostbloods revealed to Tyn that Shallan was Jasnah's ward and should have died. A bit earlier, she notes to herself that it doesn't have to be ten heartbeats for her to summon the blade. There isn't much description otherwise. Next she summons the Blade in the chasms with Kaladin in chapter 72, when they are stuck in a crack hiding from the chasmfiend. Now, the Blade glows, and is "the color of garnet", which is a deep violet. Kaladin notes that he doesn't hear the screech of a dead Blade. The Blade also can change shape when Shallan wants. Along with the fact that she can't send the illusions on Pattern (because Brandon didn't want to reveal that Blades are spren until Kaladin swears the third ideal in chapter 84), I agree with @Isilel that this is Pattern, not Testament. N.B. the description is from Kaladin, which should be reliable. Quoted above already, but this is from when she works the Oathgate in chapter . There is basically no description of the blade here, but it basically has to be Pattern because it works the Oathgate, and she says his name. It seems like a bigger stretch to say that Testament is special to the extent of being able to work the Oathgate than to just say that it's Pattern at this point. Note that she does say that she's killed with Pattern, which under this accounting is not actually true (Tyn and her mother were both Testament), so she's still not 100% unreliable. Why is Shallan unreliable, and switch from Testament to Pattern? I think the only thing that changes greatly between Tyn and the chasms is Shallan developing/revealing Veil as a persona. In RoW, Shallan says that Veil protects her from her past. This coincides with her increasing suppression of Testament and conflation of what she did as a child with what is happening to her now, with Pattern. So as Veil develops, she is able to switch to using Pattern as a Blade, because she has convinced herself it's not Testament. My main caveat with this reading is that it means she summoned Pattern at only one truth/level 2. I think this is acceptable, because it also makes the childhood story a bit easier to manage, since only one truth would be needed for Shallan to kill her mother with Testament. The main reason we think that we need to be level 3 for the blade is because of the Windrunners, and we know there are differences between orders since the Skybreakers don't even get a spren until the third ideal. TLDR: I think Tyn was killed with Testament, but the chasmfiend and the Oathgate are Pattern. This is because Shallan develops Veil in the meantime. P.S. I am not sure that "blades are wrong" is a truth, and in fact it's not clear from the end of RoW that "I killed my spren" is a truth either. That puts her still at Level 3
  21. 8 points
  22. 8 points
  23. 7 points
    Finally. I have reached the top of the yearly board. I have surpassed Channelknight Fadran, Frustration, AonEne, Kingsdaughter613, Karger, and Honorless. I have become the number 1. All Time Leaderboard, here I come.
  24. 6 points
    Would Nale make a good champion for Odium? Now that taravangian is Odium I feel like a more subtle choice would work better... Someone like Elhokar that Dalinar would have difficulty fighting on a non-combat level. But if we were choosing from the available fighting pool Nale would certainly make a fearsome opponent.
  25. 6 points
    Lucasfilm could use you on their team
  26. 6 points
    I agree this will be Szeth watching Shinovar get wrecked and the sea flooding in. I think it will be from Division being used at large scale to wreak the mountains and perhaps the land which will allow the sea to flood in. I don't think there will be another storm that covers everything though. I think we've seen what this one refers to already. The storm that never stops is referring to the Everstorm as in forever, never stopping. Like a mistranslation from a dying person not fully understanding what they are witnessing. I think this reaction of "he has won" is very similar to the Stormfather's reaction after the Everstorm comes at the end of WoR. This most likely refers to the Unmade taking over the palace in Kholinar during OB. There is a dome of gloom that covers the palace.
  27. 6 points
    Why? It was glowing, it was drastically changing shape and size for Shallan's convenience, and she even thought to herself that she couldn't use Pattern to move around illusions like she did on previous occasions due to... something, which turned out to be that he was the shardblade she lent to Kaladin. And that was at the time when she believed that Pattern was separate from "the fruit of her sin". She didn't want to aknowledge that Pattern could be a shardblade. If Testament's blade was already so much more "alive", then shouldn't she have been more like RoW Mayalaran in the Cognitive realm? I also don't think it likely that Shallan was further than on her second Truth/Third Ideal as a child. IMHO, it wouldn't make sense, given the fact that higher Ideals tend to be much more difficult and painful and require deep soul-searching. A child shouldn't be capable of doing this, they are still too malleable and changing too much.
  28. 6 points
    Is this A. A toddler’s scribbles B. An unintelligible section of the Diagram C. My physics teacher trying to use OneNote
  29. 5 points
    "So it comes with fried potatoes?" "Yep." "And... a cremling patty sandwiched between two pieces of flatbread?" "Mmhmm." "Then what's this?" Kaladin held up a McNugget. "Oh. That's chicken." Kaladin blinked. "What kind of chicken?"
  30. 5 points
    Ba da da da da, I'm lovin' this!
  31. 5 points
    https://www.17thshard.com/news/shardcast/shardcast-shallans-past-r737/ 1.1 Steps Forward 1Step Back After the Shallan's Past Shardcast I've been thinking about Brandon's comment regarding how Shallan is progressing and the things she's able to do before she should be able to in WoK and WoR (Soulcasting, and seemingly summoning Pattern in the Chasm). https://wob.coppermind.net/events/452/#e14526 The only thing that makes sense to me is if she progressed to at least the third level as a child, broke her oaths, but Testament is still around and connected to her a bit which allows Shallan to temporarily get back to those same levels to do things she used to. To put it another way her bond is spiking back up to where it used to be but only briefly, it's doing this: Because she broke her Oaths she went back to near zero for a long time, but she's progressing again and once in a while her Bond will spike up to where it used to be and she can say summon what seems to be Pattern in the chasm before she's said enough Truths on the page unless we really contort to find Truths. She already reached those levels, her spiritweb was altered, Testament still exists and is bonded to her in some way, the bond is more deflated than broken. Think of how Dalinar sees the Oathpact as 9 thin golden lines and one robust line for Taln who did not break his Oath. Or think of it as a "groove" that a Cryptics investiture can still fill. I think both Testament and Pattern are filling up that deflated original bond / "groove" that makes it easier for her to spike back, I think Pattern is mostly filling it now, but Testament is also filling it a bit. I don't have much to go on beyond my gut, but to me it is the simplest answer that fits with what we've seen.
  32. 4 points
    Exactly. I'll Holdem still while you do the stabbing .
  33. 4 points
    Cool - thank you - I didn't know about that WoB. I guess that mean the relevance of "truest surge" is much lower in terms of whats going on with Renarin's powers. So I think I should have been more precise in my original post. I am not saying Voidbinding and Surgebinding are the exact same thing. I am saying they are different versions of the same overarching magic system. So like Allomancy, Hemalurgy and Feruchemy are three different versions of The Metallic Arts, filtered through Preservation, Ruin and a combination of the two respectively. Raboniel tells us clearly that the Fused access the Surges: "We of the Fused know our Surge with an intimacy a Radiant will never know." (RoW, Chp 31) The Fused are accessing the Surges through Odium and the Radiants are accessing them through Honor and Cultivation. I think the problem is that we call what the Radiants do "Surgebinding" instead of Honor-binding and Culti-binding (for obvious reasons given how ugly those words are). I think Odium's line at the end of RoW about other Shards discovering the strength of Surgebinding is the key one. The implication is that there is a version of this overall magic system that uses the suffix "binding" that can be filtered through each of the Shards. My fundamental point is that as things stand, Renarin and Rlain are the only two beings we know of who can access their surges through three different Shards. The implication of that is that their potential power level is higher than that of most everyone else.
  34. 4 points
    I think there is one truth that Shallan spoke as a child that she has repeated to Testament as an adult: "I am terrified". Shallan repeating this restored the connection to Testament in a way that was stronger than before, thereby allowing her to Soulcast in that instant.
  35. 4 points
    We don't know the exact terms of the Oathpact but we do have confirmation of this. It couldn't be that they just didn't think of the terms to their logical conclusion... that's just... Anyway, thankfully we know that this idea wouldn't work anymore. As per Odium and Dalinar's meeting over the terms in RoW, the Oathpact is broken, the Fused can be reborn in the Everstorm.
  36. 4 points
    What do you mean why? Because that would mean he's sending Kaladin to get tortured! Knowingly, because he knows what happened to the Heralds between Desolations! If he guilt-trips him "for the greater good" or... orders him... I'd want Dalinar dead. Preferably in a drawn out fashion but I'll settle for a quick shanking.
  37. 4 points
    I'd assume there's something of a pattern to the truths, based on this WoB: I'm working on a larger post speculating on the Ideals in general, but as part of it: I think this indicates the Lightweavers may have some pattern. Imo, the Lightweaver Ideals, based on Shallan, would very loosely be along the lines of: LBD, SBW, JBD Truth you know but are ignoring Shallan lives her life terrified, but puts on a face and pretends she's not, she's aware of it but ignores it Shallan knows she killed her dad, and never really fully repressed that it was the case, but tries not to think about it Elhokar knows he's a bad king, but hasn't yet internalized as something he needs to work on Truth you have buried and denied Shallan had mostly gotten herself to believe that Lin had killed her mother, though there's definitely times this mask slips and she references the true events. But it's far deeper buried than the others. Major mistake and regret you have refused to admit Shallan killed Testament. She regrets it, it didn't need to happen, she screwed up royally and felt horrible about it when she realized what she had truly done, but then rather than owning up to it, she pretended it didn't happen. (Speculation) Awareness of your flaws, but acceptance that it's okay to still be growing and changing This seems to be the core of Shallan's character arc. With every truth, she's terrified of admitting it, because she thinks she will hate herself, her friends will hate her, Pattern will hate her, Adolin will hate her, etc. Accepting that she's not perfect, but that it's okay, is what she clearly is building towards. It also sounds good as the final goal of the order about "I will find my own truth". The ultimate truth about yourself, that a lot of people have trouble truly facing, but especially the people who the Cryptics would normally be attracted to. That you're flawed, yes, but also that it's okay to be flawed and to be changing. It also fits as a theme of the Stormlight Archive in general. Dalinar has sworn a similar Ideal, Kaladin's Fourth involved this kind of concept, etc. Even beyond Stormlight, rebirth and second chances are some of the most core themes to the Cosmere overall. The order having accepting that as their true goal, but flavored more specifically towards finding themselves? Makes perfect sense imo. Now, as I said, this would be a loose pattern. I don't believe in the Ideals being as strict as some seem to believe, and I feel any structure is more just an attempt to figure out how the journey works on average and boil that down. Individual Radiants may go through the realizations in a different order (though probably still five Ideals total), but this is the way most people will naturally gravitate towards, just because it matches a more organic journey. Edit: forgot to mention it, but yes, I'm assuming that "I'm terrified" was not to Pattern, because evidence seems to support that strongly to me (I hate the implications of it, but it feels very clear to me now). But if that assumption is wrong, this no longer holds.
  38. 4 points
    The deep problem is to me that we are accepting the official reason for the Recreance without questioning. And that is just not plausible. People who have been fighting a war for years just do not all react in panic to the destruction of the enemy. Many, possibly even a majority, would have reacted quite simply with relief and even joy to know that this proble is solved once and for all. And some among the orders would have refused. What would the Windrunners who dropped their Shards do against those who refused? And there really is no reason they would have to do it simutaneously. They could have drawn straws and let a few unfortunates try it out. No. It really looks like the Recreance was not purely a reaction, but a planned action with a desired effect, that is there was a reason rooted in the oaths or the nature of Roshar that meant that they had to take the risk under all conditions and that had an aim. Logically we may assume that they wanted to undo something that happened due to the capture of Ba-Ado-Mishram, yet for some reason just releasing Ba-Ado-Mishram was not an option either.
  39. 4 points
    Wait. It doesn't? Here, is the complete one:
  40. 3 points
    Tldr; any Shard can give access to Surgebinding and that means Renarin is the most powerful mortal in the Cosmere (and now Rlain too) This is my first post here after recently and very heavily falling down the rabbit hole of the Cosmere after a friend recommended the books. Apologies if my ideas/theory are old hat or well-trodden. Along with being my favourite (mostly) non-viewpoint character, I can’t help but think there is something very important about Renarin and what he represents. We’ve known for a while that there is something “off” about his powers and this has been treated with suspicion by other characters in the story, to the point where Jasnah was prepared to execute her cousin. My argument here is that far from being “off”, Renarin’s powers are what Rosharan Surgebinding can be at its full potential. The theory relies on a few assumptions and assertions: 1) Odium is one sixteenth of God’s power. As such, it is neither “good” or “evil”, but simply a force in the universe. We think of Odium as being the “bad guy”. He does indeed seem pretty unpleasant: cruel, capricious, power-hungry and arrogant but I suspect this is more to do with Rayse than Odium itself. Sazed/Harmony thinks that it is the power that wishes to destroy. Hoid thinks differently. As much as I love Sazed (and in most debates I’d side with him) if it’s an argument against Hoid, I think Hoid might be in the right. We can see when Taravangian takes up Odium that he is able to consider the urges of the power in a different way. Cultivation also seems to think the right Vessel would be able to contain this force. Hoid tells us that Rayse was always a pretty bad guy. 2) Combining more Shards with Odium will temper its destructive Intent and create something different and almost certainly better. We know that the combination of Shards is possible (see Sazed/Harmony). As Frost tells us in the Second Letter; “He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context.” Giving context to this hatred will allow it to be channelled into something more productive. We can see the combination of Stormlight and Voidlight gives Warlight. There’s an assumption that if you were to combine Odium and Honor would get a new Shard called War (as Ruin and Preservation became Harmony). Many theorise that Dalinar will ascend to become this Shard at some point in our story. 3) Odium is as much a part of Roshar as Honor and Cultivation. We know that Roshar pre-dates the Shattering, so the Investiture of the planet arrived when Honor and Cultivation settled there. Odium has now been part of the Rosharan system for millenia, it’s reasonable to assume it’s Investiture has now saturated the place to enough of an extent that it is comparable to that of Honor and Cultivation. We can see this in the Singers’ use of Rhythms, they can attune to the Rhythms of Odium. Given that Roshar’s natives can attune to these Rhythms, we can be sure Odium is pretty much embedded in the planet. 4) Surgebinding and Voidbinding are two names of the same thing There is a thread on this forum about Division being Odium’s “truest surge” and one of the first objections was that Odium doesn’t have surges, he has Voidbinding. I found this point fairly meaningless. It seems obvious to me that the processes of Surgebinding and Voidbinding are the same process channelled through different Shards. The “surges” are described as the fundamental forces of the Cosmere which individuals can access through a splinter of a Shard (spren). R-Odium tells Dalinar he is preparing for “the [war] that will begin when the gods of other worlds discover the strength of Surgebinding” and earlier says that he is planning for combat with those that are “not nearly as well trained”. The implication of these two statements is that Surgebidng is available via any of the Shards. All they need to do is create spren of themselves and allow mortals in their domains to bond them. Let’s call this kind of magic “Investbinding”. The Knights Radiant are Investbinders who access the Surges through some combination of Honor and Cultivation in varying degrees. The Fused are Investbinders who access the Surges only through Odium. - So back to Renarin. We know Glys has been “Enlightened” by Sja-Anat. Enlightenment has a lot of meanings in Western culture, a whole philosophical movement is named after it. But if we take the literal meaning, “to make luminous”, in other words, to give Light; this might shed light (get it?) on what is going on. Glys has been granted access to Odium’s Light, in other words, Glys can allow Renarin to Investbind through Honor, Cultivation and Odium. I suspect there is a reason it was a Mistspren that was the first to do this. Truthwatchers are the mirror to Bondsmiths in the Surgebinding chart, i.e. furthest from Adhesion or Honor’s “truest surge”. It would be a spren that had the least influence from Honor that would be prepared to consider allowing Odium’s Light in. There are several implications if this theory is true, which I’ll outline in brief below, but the one I want to concentrate on here is what it means for Renarin’s powers. Renarin seems perfectly capable of using Progression (healing). He is also becoming increasingly proficient with Odium’s version of Illumination (his future-sight). However, he is still having issues with using Illumination in the way other Radiants (including other Truthwatchers) use it. My theory is that Progression is the “truest surge” of Cultivation and so Illumination is closer to Honor. Honor and Odium are especially at odds, and Odium’s light’s influence is making it difficult for him to use his Illumination in the way Shallan can. However, he can combine Cultivation and Odium’s version of Illumination and show what growth and future sight result in (Moash’s better self). However, Navani and Raboniel have shown us that with effort, you can combine Odium’s and Honor’s lights. So I am sure Renarin will get there eventually and be able to replicate Shallan’s version of Illumination. However, the crucial point is that he can access his surges in three different ways as opposed to the usual two. If Odium is correct and that Surgebinding is the strongest form of Investiture in the Cosmere that would mean the Renarin (and now Rlain too) is the potentially the most powerful mortal in the Cosmere, he can access two of the fundamental forces of the Cosmere in three different ways. If all the truespren are able to gain access to Odium’s Light then this will mean they can all grant three ways of accessing the fundamental forces of the Cosmere. It’s important to remember the first assumption I made here, that there is nothing “evil” about Odium. It’s just a force in the universe. It might mean that those spren that have access to Odium’s Light view the world in a slightly different way, but one of the themes of RoW was that spren can change and develop over time. They can evolve. Sja-Anat seems opposed to R-Odium’s goals. The origin is not their destiny. But more significantly, what this theory would imply is that each Shard could give even more Light. A Spren that comes into contact with Endowment could get another source of Light via Enlightenment. This is why the potential for spren to leave Roshar is so important for the Ghostbloods, we are talking about access to huge levels of power. So, to conclude this ramble, Renarin has access to two fundamental forces of the Cosmere in one more way than almost all others do. This makes his potential power level highest of every mortal we have met so far in the Cosmere Other implications of this theory The Shards can create many different types of Investiture. In theory Honor could use Allomancy and Endowment could use Surgebinding. The Old Magic might be the magic system Cultivation used before she got on board with Surgebinding. There may be an Honor-based magic system that predates Surgebinding If each Shard has a “truest surge” there should be 16 Surges, not 10 (I’ll admit this probably is a big problem with this theory)
  41. 3 points
    Interestingly, he does not recreate the visions. Glys is the one who does it and uses Light to do so, and it takes effort and tires him out pretty quickly. As for your actual question, I don't know, and am very curious on that too. Maybe Glys can make illusions (which only he and Renarin can see, for whatever reason) and "capturing" and "recreating" the vision is just that, memorizing and then recreating from the memory? But either way, this seems to be different from the visions themselves, which Renarin speaks about as if they can't be controlled.
  42. 3 points
    You always did prefer stabbing to pokers
  43. 3 points
    Taln never broke. We don't know what happened but after the everstorm the oathpact was fully broken and he escaped/was released/who knows. But he still hasn't broken. Questioner Taln. Did he actually ever give up? Or was it... Did he just get released when...? Brandon Sanderson You will find out, but Taln did not break. You'll find out how it happened, but Taln did not break.
  44. 3 points
    If I had to choose one of these options, I'd say it was more the former. But I don't think I would describe it as an either/or. I think it can be both. There were ongoing and growing fears that spiked at a certain point (the imprisonment of BAM I think), prompting a "decision in the heat of the moment by the spren and their knights" as Brandon said in the recent WoB. Let's just set the scene. The False Desolation is ongoing and the KR are fighting singers with forms of power and Voidlight provided by BAM. The Heralds are MIA. We know that the generation of Radiants that committed the Recreance learned the truth about humankind's origins. They learned that humans had originally come from Ashyn but had destroyed Ashyn through Surgebinding. They learned that humans were the invaders in the war with the singers over Roshar. Honor was going mad and/or dying. And so, rather than reassuring them that their cause was righteous as he had with previous generations, Honor raved and told them they would destroy Roshar just as they had Ashyn. There's also friction between the Radiants and the rest of the world, and in-fighting between the orders. Oh, and the Sibling has lost trust in humans and is expelling them from Urithiru. So imagine all of that going on and then the imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram happens. This tears out the the Connection and Identity of an entire species, leaving them shells of beings. We're also told in RoW that the imprisonment wounded Roshar itself and "touched the souls of all who belong to Roshar. Spren too." So this would have included all of the Radiant spren, who are bound to the spirit web of Roshar. (in RoW 75, Vaiu tells Adolin that "Deadeyes cannot think, but they are still spren - bound to the spiritweb of Roshar herself.") And because the Nahel bond involves linking the spirits of spren and human, one imagines that the Knights might have felt something too. So imagine, already burdened with worries about the dangers of the Nahel bond and the Surgebinding it allows, the KR and their spren witness/feel the extent of the damage that can be done with powerful Surgebinding. So now you've got a concrete example of harm to go with the existing fears. I can buy that that freaked them out enough that they acted rashly, thinking they needed to make sure they put a stop to Radiant Surgebinding right away. As a postscript on BAM's imprisonment and its relation to deadeyes, I'll note that I think BAM Connected to all of the singers by Connecting to some portion/aspect of Roshar itself. And as I noted above, spren are connected to the spirit web of Roshar. So when BAM was imprisoned, I think some crucial Spiritual aspect of Roshar (maybe something to do with how Honor's Investing in Roshar created sapient spren?) was also sealed away and therefore torn away from the spren. This made the Radiant sprens' spiritual Connections to their Knights all the more crucial, and when the Knights foresook their oaths, that left the Radiant sprens' minds untethered, causing the deadeye phenomenon. Ooohh, running with this idea that BAM's imprisonment messed with whatever Honor did to create sapient spren, what if before the imprisonment, spren were able to come to the Physical Realm without giving up their minds? Do we know whether that's always been the case? Might explain a bit of what happened with Adolin and Maya - maybe it was him forging a Connection with her and then sharing his mind with her while in the the Cognitive Realm that allowed her to regain some level of sapience.
  45. 3 points
    My reasoning is that Ishar said that there is a way to "reset" the Oathpact. So how one does that? I would guess that maybe it requires adding one to remaining 9 heralds so that Lift can count them will all her fingers. So if that is true, then the question shifts to whom could we put in that role? Jezrien could fly and stick things together, so can Kaladin. Jezrien was a patron of Windrunners, and now the closest thing to that is again Kal. Jezrien was suppost to be great leader, Herald of Kings. Kaladin can lead, he can inspire where there is little to none hope, so some could call him a great leader too. So now, if Kal adopts Shalash then he will be prime candidate to burn on Braize for eternity to Protect all the crabs on Roshar.
  46. 3 points
    I'm trying to remember. Is that the only part of the oathpact? Or are there other parts that are, for lack of a better term, broken? Because now that I think about it more, the oathpact seems like an awful idea, and I'm not sure why anyone would agree to it, much less 10 people. Unless they were drunk at the time. And you people now have me picturing a scene where Dalinar and Ishar have their heads together, trying to figure out a way to fix the oathpact, and they're whispering quietly to each other, and suddenly they turn and look at Kaladin, and Kal just points to them and goes, "**** you," and Dalinar tries to appeal to Kaladin's honor, and he just replies "I'm going to find Moash."
  47. 3 points
    I'm going to take a different path on this one - I think 5th ideal will have to do with the Leadership aspect of the Windrunners in conjunction with the Protection theme. I don't know the right words to put it in a simple phrase, but basically as a leader of a group that is charged with protecting people in general, you might have to send someone on a mission where they will almost certainly die, in order to protect. So I'm thinking something around acknowledging that he may have to give an order that someone else e.g. another Knight sacrifice themselves to protect others. I think if phrased or contextualized correctly it can still fit with the first ideal. And would be a hard one for Kaladin. It is further than 4th ideal because it's not just not being able to protect someone but actually having to make a decision or order more actively. And fits with some of Lirin's triage type lessons. I think of this one a lot around an episode of Star Trek TNG where Troi is taking a test to become a bridge officer, the final exam there's a horrible disaster and to pass you have to be willing to give an order that would send a crewmate to get it shut down and save everyone, into an area they'll get exposed to lethal doses. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Bridge_Officer's_Test
  48. 3 points
    @LewsTherinTelescope Great post! I was thinking of starting a thread on the Recreance timeline after the latest sharcast, but wanted to check if anyone else has. You've summed it up nicely. I'm absolutely with you on this first point. I can't get round the fact that BAM and her Singers were pushing towards Feverstone Keep as mentioned in the gem archive and a solider in the Feverstone Keep Vision says there was a front near there with Radiants. Plus, Honor said these were the first, it's likely the Recreance started either the same day or within a couple days of the fighting ending. Why would they choose to start breaking their Oaths in front of Feverstone Keep if they had all returned to Urithiru and argued about it for a ~month (50 days on Roshar) as was posited on the Shardcast. Feverstone Keep is in the general vicinity of Rall Elorim. It's nowhere near Uirithiru. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Rall_Elorim The simplest explanation is the first ones who quit didn't go back to Urithiru or wherever the new Radiant home bases were. Whatever discussion they had, they had near where the strike took place and they went from there to the nearest place where humans were to make a big show of quitting. Yeah, there are no Spanreeds, so the fighting may have been over for a bit, but armies still had messengers. Presumably there were some normal troops along with the radiants and the fighting was near feverstone keep. If multiple weeks had passed since the battle that's plenty of time for non-radiants to relay a message to a major fortress near the front that the war ended. Perhaps they took a a few days, a week, but longer than that is stretching it. Before RoW my thought was the same. The Sibling "withdrawal" was separate from the Sibling taking damage. I am also not 100% sure about this. They had to leave Urithiru because the Sibling kicked them out. I don't know that this happened before or after the strike, but it seems like the strike had not happened. They were preparing to leave when they made the gem archive. They made the gem archive because they were preparing to leave it. Leaving something behind as a symbolic gesture / grieving process. Different orders used it differently, but there is no epigraph that reads like it was pre them having to leave the tower and none read like they occurred after the strike on BAM. Sibling kicked them out before the strike and they don't seem to have come back. I think the Tower "failing" was the Sibling choosing to depower it. In RoW the Sibling says they went to great lengths to convince everyone they were dead. "everyone was supposed to think I was dead"(RoW Ch. 40) They could have been pretending from the start / told them to get out and shut down the heating to encourage that and then taken damage from the strike which actually hurt their ability to power the tower. This is what makes the timeline so confusing, were they choosing not to power the tower fully at first or did they take the damage first? I think they chose not to at first and the damage came after they kicked everyone out, but can't prove it. @WeiryWriter Made a great point on the Shardcast. Deadeye spren only show up in the Cognitive realm when they are unsummoned and the ability to summon/unsummon a dead blade requires a gemstone. The people who just picked them up would have no idea about this. The deadeye wouldn't have been viewable in the cognitive realm and that makes it less likely the other radiant spren would realize the extent of the injuries. This gives the other radiant orders some time to argue and come around to quitting without realizing the full cost.
  49. 3 points
  50. 3 points
    Well in that case I’ll keep going, I have way too many random things saved
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