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Assuming a stride equals between 2.1 and 2.5 feet, the steps would be between 21 and 25 feet tall. The Heralds have, roughly, the same proportions as an average human would. Depending on the particulars of the stairs, they may have a smooth vertical surface or a detailed surface capable of providing handholds. Either way, no human being is going to be able to crawl up such a staircase. If we instead interpret the viewpoint of this poem to be that of a small creature, with comparatively small strides, things begin to make much more sense. From the perspective of a creature with a stride of 1 inch, we can envision a scenario in which the Heralds could actually walk up the steps that were, after all, crafted for them. Dysian hordelings are usually about the size of a finger, and can be as large as a fist. Crawling. There is a forthcoming novella named Dawnshard that is set in Aimia. Dysian Aimians, also known as Sleepless, are a sapient non-human race found on Roshar that once lived in the Silver Kingdom of Aimia. Hordelings fit within the perfect size-range to provide plausibility to an otherwise strange statement, they are a sentient life-form capable of carrying out the actions described in the poem, and they originate from the one place on Roshar that is specifically tied to Dawnshards. The Poem of Ista is written about a Dysian Aimian, from the perspective of a Dysian Aimian.

So, reading the sample chapters from The Rythm of War has given insight into the longterm question of whether or not Elsecallers can teleport. From what we've seen the new fused do, it seems that Elsecallers should be able to teleport. Previously seen fused teleportation seems to show that short-ranged teleportation is a thing, but you can't take anything with you that's not directly part of you (I assume that this means something part of your spirit web). Now, here's the big question. As far as we know, Elsecaller Jasnah Kholin should be able to teleport. Unless she's sworn the 4th ideal (which, granted, could have happened) she probably can't summon shard plate to use as clothing. The fused we've seen teleport seems to get around the issue of not being able to take clothing with you by wearing its own hair as clothing. Will Jasnah Kholin, queen of Alethkar, begin wearing a Havah made from her own hair? Discuss.

An accurate portrayal of mental health issues means there's no consequences? You omitted the section of my quote that was most relevant. What is considered "normal" is all based on social acceptability and comfort. We have a culture in many places were an unhealthy relationship with alcohol is prevalent and accepted. It's normal. That doesn't make it any less harmful, and yet there's rarely an uproar until people cross a line into outright self destructive behavior. Why is addiction socially acceptable at a level that it's not harmful? It's still not "healthy" in the sense that people are using the word in this thread. In fact on top of the mental health issues there are actual physical health consequences as well. But no one is made uncomfortable by it. What I'm saying is that throughout history what is normal has shifted by time and culture. Some mental conditions that we view negatively are viewed favorably in other cultures. And in those cultures the people with the condition not only fare better, but their symptoms occur in less harmful ways in general. We get to choose what normal is as a society, and that choice has actual consequences. My "postmodern deconstruction" is all about promoting actual mental health instead of sweeping issues under the rug and pretending they aren't there. Because in most western countries that's how it's treated. Not wanting to face the problems doesn't make them go away, it makes them worse, and the insistence that people can't function in a healthy manner unless the issues disappear completely is a direct symptom of wanting to ignore them instead of facing our own discomfort.

Thank you regarding my sand analogy. Regarding Shallan not being able to "go evil" if she has DID because it could be received poorly, I will be completely upfront that I have not watched Mr. Robot, so anything I reference to it is pure surface knowledge, but from what I understand the main character has DID as well as depression and anxiety. To my knowledge that show has done very well incorporating those conditions within the character and its portrayal. So I think it certainly is possible to do. I guess my point is, unless I am recalling incorrectly, we have not actually seen a single flashback of Shallan at the age when she first bonded pattern. We see a brief recollection of deja vu regarding creating an illusion. We see another brief recollection of feeling like everything was not so nice in the davar household before her mother died when Shallan did the illusory performance on stage. But I do not think we have seen Shallan at the age of her bonding pattern initially at all. So there isn't really any internal dialogue hidden, because I don't think we have seen the scenes yet to know. Meanwhile we begin to see Veil and Radiant start to pop up as Shallan begins to face truths regarding each of her parents death. That is the trauma I believe triggered the alters. Fantasy is fantastical within the bounds the author decides. Even with regenerating limbs, there are hard rules on that in the cosmere. One of the hard rules includes not being able to use cosmeric healing to change your brain chemistry. So I guess my point is, somewhere there has to be a line, and the author decided to draw it there. But you used a real world example to illustrate your point, so I continued it to what I felt was the logical conclusion. You said how a person in our world without a leg is seen as not normal, so that mental conditions should not be normalized. So I in turn gave an example where it is normalized in our world. If you really want to get technical, our sole reason for existing is a mutation. Because ancestor upon ancestor upon ancestor, a bunch were "not normal" and thereby were more successful in a given environment and then bred to become dominant. And then another "not normal" mutation came along, and that became dominant because it was more successful in the given environment. So splitting straws aside, "normal" is purely and completely subjective based on your location in both space and time. edit: actually continuing on that premise, then being "normal" is nothing more than being successful and thriving in a given environment. Which someone missing a leg or with a mental condition can be perfectly capable of.

Alright. I think I've figured out how to put into words why this situation bothers me so much. In a person with a physical disability people initially have pity, and a similar initial discomfort as they would towards this with a mental issue. But when that person makes progress and, through prosthetics or whatever other means overcomes that disability and surpasses peoples expectations of what they, or an average fully able person, can do, they are lauded and viewed as an inspiration. Whereas a mental issue is viewed as frightening or other, or weird, regardless of the ability to function or the level of progress that someone has made. And it's absolutely ignorant and hypocritical, because when it comes to mental health no one is normal. We're all walking bundles of neuroses. We all have our traditions or ticks or addictions that let us cope. But so long as those coping mechanisms are socially acceptable, they're ignored. He's already done two of these. Elhokar was extremely narcissist, and the Sociopath is one of Brandon's most beloved characters. Mistborn spoilers.

When you're willing to spend around four hours making and formatting 100 memes about the Cosmere and Brandon.

Which is why everyone expects reintegratation. Because that's not formulaic or predictable. Gotcha. I have said exactly what I mean the whole time. What I disagree with is the use of the term "social justice" as a means to invalidate differing opinion. I won't bury my head in the sand and pretend that everything is wonderful when a societal change can benefit many. The ability to ignore that is the ability to say "this doesn't effect me, so business as usual." It's been fun.

@DeployParachute I understand the difference and if we're speaking of "abnormal psychology" that is absolutely fine. What I'm speaking about is more societal perception and treatment of individuals with these problems. Yes in terms of medical variables this is not normal. Where I draw issue is the idea that there is a "cure." There are treatments. There are drugs. There are therapies. For many this can result in reintigration, yes. For just as many it does not. For those that it does not, they have still sought treatment. They have still expended effort to better themselves and their condition. They have still improved and stabilized and become more functional. And in many cases, despite that improvement, they are still ostracized because they are viewed as abnormal in the social sense, and not the medical sense. And even for those who are "cured" that term is incorrect. They have reached a point that they have reintegrated and function within a normal (medical) range, but they will always have a dissociative disorder and the risk of relapse will never go away. As long as people cannot tell the difference between a managed condition and a "cure" the stigma attached to someone of any mental condition that cannot reach a point of normal presentation will be treated as other. The is not an issue of abnormal psychology, but one of societal perception and acceptance. Anyone suffering from a mental health issue should seek treatment. That is not in doubt and I have never suggested otherwise. But these fears and stigma are a major contributor to why people avoid treatment in the first place. It's a stigma that creates a perception that it's better to feel like crap and deny your problems than it is to be labeled "crazy." which is why I will continue to say that this perception is actively harmful.

I think you are conflating two different, very distinct ideas under the umbrella term "normal" 1. The very generic, broadly applied idea of what society considers to be proper behavior, or viewpoints, acceptable language, etc etc 2. The mathematical concept of "normal", which involves the distribution of possible outcomes for a given data point, which can be used to predict the likeliness of the occurrence of different values along a distribution curve (yes the bell) How we as a society view and treat individuals who have medical conditions that cause them to fall outside of expected social behaviors and etiquette certainly falls under the first consideration. I think your points about historical treatments of said individuals have merit within this context. HOWEVER Mental health disorders are not socially created conditions. They are medically created conditions. They exists as a consequence of biological factors responding to a variety of stimuli, and to varying degrees within an individual. Medical disorders are identified by using the second consideration of the operative word "normal". Medical conditions are derived by observation of available data within populations, they are not imposed socially. You can plot a data set in order to assist in determining whether there is something that is ailing a person by identifying a normative distribution. So if we were to see an adult human male in society who was, let's say, 3ft tall (that's 91cm for most of the world), you could look at a distribution of the normal height range for a human male and determine that this individual was on the extreme low end of this distribution. This is of course a natural occurrence, and it is possible that the distribution's data set is incomplete. Yet it could also indicate the existence of some medical condition that would merit investigation and study. Now, there is likely not anything that could be done to bring this person to a normative height (a "cure" so to speak), but that does not mean that they could not live a meaningful life at that height. However, that does not dismiss the existence of the normative distribution for human males for height, and neither is the normative distribution for human male height derived from socially constructed ideas. It is derived through observation of a population, with measurable data point. Let's take another example. Let's plot a new data point: the number of arms humans are born with. Imagine the curve of this distribution. It would likely be a very steep one, with the middle being extremely tall and falling onto one outcome: 2. If we were to observe a human who was born with 1 or no arms, we would all likely agree that this was not a normative condition for a human being. This individual, again, would likely be stuck with this condition, as there is currently no cure, or at least nothing that could bring them the use of 2 fully biological human arms (maybe in the future using gene editing to turn on a "regrowth" mechanism). They would exist, they could live life (in modern society) as fully and successfully as they are able, and we as a society should all support that. It does not mean that 2 arms for a human being isn't the norm. I would suspect that if there did someday come a "cure" for that person to be given 2 fully working biological arms of their own that they would take it, over their current circumstances. (assuming they don't have a set of badass artificial arms that to them are far superior, who knows) All right, so final example. How about we plot the number of distinct, individually thinking personalities a human exhibits. A normative distribution for this would likely be centered around 1. The strength of this norm would be determined by the sample size of the dataset, and how flat or steep the curve is when plotted. Now, as with our individual with the extremely variant height, an individual with multiple personalities may be no cause for concern, so long as that individual is not so impaired that they cannot function, and impairment is often used as a metric for whether an individual has a diagnosable mental health condition. However, in the instances where they are impaired, and they cannot function or operate in the world to their detriment, there are treatments and therapeutic techniques available to bring this individual's data point back within the normative distribution. Unlike regrowing an arm, or adding extra height, DID has documented cases of successfully addressing the trauma and reintegrating the personalities back to the 1. Not all cases will do this, perhaps not even most, but there is "technically" a cure available that can bring a person back into the normative distribution for number of personalities exhibited by a human being. Not all mental disorders have this available, such as various types of depression or anxiety, whose lifelong diagnosis are more often the result of chemical imbalances that must be managed with medication. DID, as far as I've been able to find, is trauma induced, not a factor of your genes, and has documented treatments available for a "cure". Where a cure is available, I would think most people would be interested in pursuing it.

Well first and foremost, you are totally entitled to not enjoy reading Shallan with DID. That is your prerogative. I am in no way saying you have to be all jolly on the spot about it. Now having said that, for myself, I had not seen any indication that Brandon is sensationalizing DID via Shallan as a vehicle. I just view it as representation. Just because it has not been seen prior, and now is evident, does not mean to me that it is saturation. Sand at the beach is still the same sand if a cup full is taken home with you. It may become more readily apparent when presented in contrast to a location that till that time was bereft of sand, but I wouldn't say that means I am holding the cup of sand up and saying to the world "Hey over here! Look at this sand!". For myself, it is acknowledging sand exists. Which is from what I understand, why Brandon is having his heroes have these attributes. I don't see anywhere that he is extolling, or lauding having such conditions. I believe he is just saying, "Hey these people exist. They are not an insignifcant number of the population, and they can be heroes too". So to answer your other question, sure as far as I am concerned he can feel free to include a high functioning narcissist, or sociopath if he feels he can portray them in a respectful manner. Side note, I had a thought to expand on my response to Rainer. There is not a cure for losing your leg. We do not have the capability to grow one back. There is not a cure for depression, anxiety, DID, and so on. All we have now are ways to manage, and live a as productive life as possible. Recognizing that a person can do so, and be ok I do not believe is condoning nor extolling the conditions. It does not to me equate saying they require no treatment. I think we are saying to recognize that a person can have such a condition, and still be a happy, productive member of society, and does not have to be identified by such conditions in a limiting manner.

I think one of the primary dangers here is the PT Barnum syndrome, at what point is this just sensationalism? Really, this rubs me the wrong way, not for the reasons mostly mentioned, but because it's a bit like Oliver Stone's defense of the ultraviolence in his movie Natural Born Killers. Saying that it's a critique on how violent movies have become while still capitalizing on the interest in violence is a hypocritical position. Just like having a character with an exotic mental illness while saying you are treating it respectfully is still a kind of voyeurism that I find distasteful. Even though Brandon has a beta reader with DID, I'm always skeptical when a single person speaks for a larger community, and I think this is compounded in this case when the multiplicity of one is trying to represent the multiplicity of an entire community of multiplicity. DID has a lot of innate interest built into it, and quite frankly is a plot device that I wish Brandon had stayed away from. Ultimately he is choosing how to tell his story, and I get that a major component of Stormlight Archive is the fact that people have to be broken in order to find their link to power. It's a nice moral, a good message, but I think it runs the risk of having the Knights Radiants become a catalogue of DSM conditions. This also begs the question, is Brandon going to create a sympathetic sociopathic character? What about a highly functioning narcissist? What about a character with uncontrollable impulsive thoughts? I really like Shallan as a character, but this seems like a tacked on thing. I might have a different opinion of this if Brandon hadn't stated time and time again that he was going to steer clear of the whole DID with Shallan. With this choice of direction, I think Brandon is running the risk of having the story warped around the exigencies of the condition, and also he runs the real risk of not accurately portraying the condition. In watching the video linked by @Karger above, it seems like people with DID have some similar common alters, one of which is an alter frozen in childhood. In pursuit of a realistic depiction of the condition, this alter might be added to Shallan's multiplicity, and from a narrative stand point that is just horrible. Having a major character switch basically to the mind frame of a child while in the midst of a bloody, grisly war (definitely an adult situation) would be awful. But if he doesn't include a child alter than is he really accurately depicting the condition or is this just the Hollywood narrative device version of the condition? Also, I don't like the implications for the narrative, because Shallan has this condition and isn't just trapped in a confusing web of self delusions, it pretty much rules her out of the running for Odium's champion. Brandon's hands will be tied in what he can do with Shallan because he will want her to be a sympathetic character, which necessarily limits the range of the possibilities for her character progression.

That... Completely misses my point? No its not "social justice" in the derogatory sense that that term is used. Clearly mental health is a real issue and should be treated as such. But painting a realistic picture of probable outcomes and educating people on what those are is far preferable than continuing a stigma that makes these conditions worse. So that the majority can feel "comfortable" because that's all that this is about. In your heart disease example, someone can be treated and manage their symptoms and have everything under control and are treated by everyone as if they're healthy. If someone Is like Shallan, or has tourettes, or countless other conditions and has that managed and under control they will likely still have symptoms. The difference isn't one of level of recovery. It's that in the case of the heart patient, people can forget that the person has a problem. And that's it. The difference can't be forgotten when there are abnormal behaviors in front of their face, so it makes people uncomfortable. Fighting that stigma and discomfort helps everyone have happier and healthier lives because it destroys the fears that keeps people from seeking treatment and reaching the point of breakdown, or worse suicide, in the first place. And frankly, all mental health advocacy aside, I fail to see how the ending that isn't the one everyone seems to expect is the "boring" or less interesting one.

so im finally reading it. if @Emperorstick ever see's this, he'll probably be dissapointed in me for waiting so long. Im not done, but im really really enjoying it so far. (im on way of kings btw)

Except within the work we absolutely do have the capability to grow one back. This is fantasy. Let it be fantastical. Maybe not in the real world, but we're not talking about the real world, are we? We're talking about fiction. This is a bunch of nonsense. You can try to simply define away everything you don't like, but that doesn't change the reality around you. Most people are normal, some people are not. Most people are not normal in some way, but that doesn't make them less normal in other ways. The people who are abnormal in significant ways will continue to be abnormal in significant ways even when you put them next to others who are abnormal in less significant ways. Of course not, because you oppose the very idea of normality as some kind of postmodern deconstruction of...what exactly? What is the big deal with saying this is normal, that is not, when it's so obvious that one person per brain is normal, and three people per brain is not? Yes, she's been so thoroughly plot-armored that any tension from her is gone. Her DID cannot meaningfully interact with the story being told and simultaneously be an accurate and respectful portrayal. One purpose is going to be sacrificed to serve the other, and like you said, I'm afraid we're going to end up with a fantasy DSM instead of a fantasy story.

Alright, it's been over two weeks since I've posted here. I've hit an annoying writer's block on the least writer's blockiest chapter ever (how did I get blocked on a fight scene?), so I guess I'll share this one that I've been holding onto:

Exactly this. @jamskinner this is my exact issue here. This very belief that "it would still be unhealthy." What this says to many patients, of various mental health issues, is that they can never be healthy. You go in and have therapy, you try different meds, you deal and struggle and reach a point that the world says you aren't healthy, even though you are stable and functional and happy (and in some cases, learn to see the way your brain functions as an advantage over "normal" people), and plateau... And that's it. That's life forever after. Highs and lows and struggles... And you'll never be "normal" or "healthy" in the eyes of the majority no matter how well you function, or how happy you are, or how far you've come. It's a stigma that needs to die because it is actively harmful to people who have gone through struggles that a "normal" person can't even begin to understand. People disagreeing that Shallan can maintain her personas and be healthy is exactly why it should happen.

This was posted on reddit: Obviously, what happened with Ym happened before Ialai's death, but it points to a certain MO, no?! Okay, I'm going back to lurking now.

How are you all doing? I haven't posted to a forum in years...I used to moderate an LOTR forum waaaaay back in like 2004. Anyone from the Prancing Pony here? Random I know guys....I'm sorry. I just want to read Aether of Night so badly, but apparently I need to post a few times to prove I am not SPAM. ah well, mayhaps I will become hooked on some random cosmere discussions. I wish you all the best, have a great night. Greetings, salutations, and goodbye for now.

I think based on my posts it is pretty readily apparent I like defined data as much as the next guy. It gives a basis in which to derive conclusions and mutual understanding from commonly agreed upon parameters. However, when considering data, the inherent fallacies must be taken into account, otherwise the conclusion produced becomes unusable. This becomes of even greater importance in regards to the social sciences. Bias, sample size, and distribution are huge factors. Now based on what you wrote, you are clearly knowledgeable, so please do not take me writing this as a means of educating you. I am sure you are more than well versed in it. Why I bring it up and wax on upon it is namely this: Mental conditions overall are a widely unreported, misunderstood, and ostracized aspect of our species globally. The human mind being understood from a purely bio-mechanical perspective is still largely an unexplored realm that we are still seeking to understand, nonetheless the cognitive side. There are studies I could reference, but I will not due to the nature of what they involve (though I will include one below and spoiler it as for an example. If the moderators deem it too controversial, of course remove it as you deem fit, just know my intention was not to cause anything), that show results can be skewed due to a myriad of reasons, with society being one of the biggest impactors. (edit I removed the example as I believe the point still stands, and will change this to a better example that will potentially not be as controversial so as to avoid any issues just in case) So in the example I gave, all because of a subculture within a group existed, the numbers for a purely biological in function agent were under reported, and skewed. 46.4 percent of adults in the United States alone will experience a mental condition in their life. One in four people in the world will be affected by a mental condition at some point in their life. And those are numbers regarding a topic that is still largely misunderstood, and under reported due to the social stigma associated with it. If "normal" is to be defined as prevalence/average (which personally I do not think that is the case, but if that is where you are directing your data), then with the properly funded resources, I do not think it is remotely outside reason to find out, mental conditions are in fact "the norm" edit: here is a link to a study that I think discusses in a rather interesting, and (seems to me) non-controversial subject matter the consequence of over reporting normative practices versus the under reporting of counter normative practices due to societal and cultural pressures. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5639921/ edit 2: to clarify the study refers to "normative" and "counter- normative" is in regards to practices that are viewed favorably by a given culture or society. It is not to be taken literally as "normal" versus "not normal"

As previously advertised, everyone who votes for me gets a joke told about them. So.... why can't Kyl be killed by gut wounds? Because he's already been disemvoweled! I'll PM you about my name. EDIT: SOME OTHER MAD LADS VOTED FOR ME Yo Turtle, are you bald? Because according to Aesop, you're anti-hare! (I know it was a tortoise, shh) And hey TFA, knock knock! Who's there? The Forgetful Archivist! The Forg- forgo- nope, I've lost it. [END OF JOKE] (that's a memory joke for all of y'all)

I believe it is because the original poster theorized that you cannot carry anything with you when you teleport. Which is why the hair of the fused was used as clothing. So unless Jasnah wanted to arrive as bare as she was born, she would need to do the same (based on the OP's premise) Now having said that, I personally disagree considering we have seen Jasnah transfer between realms and keep all her clothing and belongings. I theorize the way teleportation works is that the body breaks down into investiture, and then moves via the spiritual realm to the location, and is reformed from investiture. The reason why the fused leaves a body that breaks down, and forms a new one, is because I believe the fused cannot use investiture in such large amounts in short bursts like radiants can. For instance the flying fused have to slowly accelerate, and cannot reach the speeds a windrunner can from adding multiple lashings in a row. That I believe results in an elsecaller and willshaper being able to teleport greater distances and objects as well as other people with them for a lot of stormlight, while fused can do short hops, more often, with less expenditure.

I guess we'll have to disagree on this one. Sanderson's style is to have a huge master planned multi-part epic with great foreshadowing and hints woven throughout all his books that you could look at and later see he'd planned for certain events all along. Yes, he does put in occasional meta-commentary, or use overarching themes where his story is trying to get across a deeper message about life or a moral lesson. But he doesn't use symbolism like this - he doesn't have Character A say something in Character B's presence that is not about Character B and assume that we as readers to infer that there actually is a symbolic reference being made about Character B. Your spoilered example quote doesn't really land for me. It's nothing at all like this wine example. In your example, it's a character making a mostly joking off handed comment about what he should do, which he later then does. That just logically follows - it's the kind of thing you would expect him to do if he could based on what we know about his personality. It's a case of true foreshadowing. Sanderson is putting it out there that the character thinks about that kind of stuff, making it a cool payoff when he later actually does it. The wine scene isn't foreshadowing. It isn't showing us more detail into how Veil/Shallan/Radiant see themselves (none of them consider the possibility that Ialai's comments have anything to do with them) or insight into how other characters see them (Ialai doesn't know or even suspect that Shallan has DID). I think one or the other is required if we are going to consider this foreshadowing. The scene where Mraize says he thinks Veil is the "true" personality -could- be foreshadowing, because it is laying out a possibility for us to consider as readers based on the opinions of characters. Or, it could be a red herring. We don't know what will happen yet. The wine scene is not because it is not showing us the opinion of a character nor is it showing us an example of something happening to give us a hint of something similar possibly happening in the future. The other examples you are talking about are much different. Those are things like thematic references or possible 4th wall breaking, they are "meta" type commentary about art, fandom, and other topics. They are not secret messages telling us what will happen in the plot or hints toward a character's secrets.

Please don't do this.

But this is, in itself, a realistic portrayal of narcissism. Growing to start recognizing the issues and working to be better in spite of them. As to the Mistborn stuff. I am not, in any way, saying that this things should be considered "normal" because they aren't. I'm only saying that there are stigmas attached to them that ignore people's progress in overcoming them because people are made uncomfortable by them and fear them. Some conditions can make much better progress than others depending on severity. But just because someone doesn't reach a point that they are viewed as normal does not mean that they have not reached a point of stability and health for themselves. My take on this is that while she didn't have alters we do see her dissociate frequently in her flashbacks, and even in current time before the alters. There are frequent states that are almost catatonia in her flashbacks where she does not know how long she has been standing in place staring. There is one point in WoR where Pattern is trying to speak to her about her past and... She just chooses not to hear it. His words trail off, and then after an unclear period of time she continues speaking as if he never spoke. She was dissociating even before we saw the alters develop. I understand it was subtle and the desire for clearer tells, but signs have been there from the beginning.

Hahaha, well, I do love Brandon's books and I am actually usually quite "jolly on the spot" when I'm reading his works. I truly appreciate that he writes with a moral imperative, Dalinar's oath of "If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man" is powerful, motivational stuff, and I think including characters with personality attributes that some would dismiss as flaws but that Brandon highlights as just struggles that make them who they are is really good. My point really was that he didn't by necessity need to take Shallan down the DID path, but it's a choice that he has made (and in fairness to Brandon, I do think he will do a very good job with it). And this will have implications for Shallan's character arc because giving a character DID makes them the narrative equivalent of the 3 legged dog Little Brudder from Strong Bad (he could have passed for a 1000 yards). The character is necessarily going to be insulated from certain outcomes because of his desire to be respectful and sympathetic to the condition. If she was just trapped in a series of self-delusions, suffering from PTSD, and not fully dissociated, it would still be believable that she could possibly be Odium's champion. But the fact that she has a real world condition, and that real people with this same condition will look to her as a lens for understanding their own condition, makes it so he has less room to maneuver with Shallan. That's really more of my concern with this choice, I think like you said Brandon will steer clear of sensationalizing the condition, but also for narrative purposes he might choose to less accurately portray it (which, with his powers as an author is fully his right to do). I liked your sand in a cup analogy, by the way, I hope you have a cup full sand sitting by your desk. If you do, then you could place a small fold-up drink umbrella in it, and then position the cup and umbrella so that the sun is directly behind it, and be transported to the beach in your home/office. Nice stuff. Yeah, but with Elhokar, he was on the path to Radiance because he was trying to get past his Narcissism, not because of it. It's one of those conditions that is unsympathetic, because at it's base the individual experiencing it has underdeveloped empathy, and I find it hard to believe that an arc of Radiance could include the maintenance of full blown Narcissism. Highly functioning narcissists are successful, low functioning narcissists (like Elhokar) are not. The success reinforces the condition, the lack of success undercuts a core belief, namely that everything should work out because they are exceptional. Addressing the other one below, Mistborn Spoilers: Everyone has struggles in life to be sure, and their is no right path to where you want to go. I think it is to the good that Brandon is exploring what it means to struggle with mental health with his books, and I think that some of the most powerful moments have come about because of his desire to address these issues (Kaladin at the Chasm, Shallan's Discussion with Wit in Kholinar, and Dalina's refusal to give Odium his pain). I personally would have liked to see Shallan not have DID, mostly because I liked the wildcard element of her narrative arc, and it seems like with her having a real world condition Brandon (in an effort to be respectful) will have her have a fully sympathetic arc. It's a bit like knowing that a character is going to be in a sequel, and seeing them in the first movie in a point of danger, you know that nothing is really going to happen so the tension is lost.

I'm finding it hard to reply to post,don't you just 'Quote' them? either way 1. favourite book is probably hero of the ages,i still think that plot twist is the greatest one i have ever seen 2.What do you think of as the most critical event in the history of the Cosmere?” “What was the first book in the Cosmere that you read and do you wish you had started elsewhere?” and “Which magic system would you bring into the real world, if you could only choose one?” I thin the most critical would be whateve set Khriss on been worldhopper and been more knowledgeable than hoid in that regard. First cosmere book was Elantris. Magic system bring....hmmmm,i think elantris magic and allomancy seem the most versatile. 3.Fave magic system ,honestly,I'm not even sure 4. Favourite thing to do with a larkin....hmmm,prolly watch it grow so i can ride it hahhaha

YKYASFW you know you should be doing something productive, but all you do is sit around all day waiting for notifications on the shard.

I imagine it is sort of like (warbreaker spoilers, tagged just in case)

@Zillah So, after thinking it through, I realized I probably shouldn't use my darkeyed Alethi soldier character (who has a set storyline in my fanfic) as a Thaylen political advisor So if it's okay, I will change my RP character. Tozkar will hopefully be back for a more appropriate game. I think I'll RP as.... hmm.... a cremling! Yeahhhhhh, a cremling. Please change my RP character to Phil, a literal cremling. Thanks!

I fully believe this. It would make sense as why kaza’s crew was killed: to protect the dawn shards, items capable of destroying worlds (braize) and would make the Rysn novella’s name make more sense. There is also something in the RoW previews that adds to this theory. Also, it would definitely explain why fabrial technology to make soulcasters was lost. I have a theory about dawnshard, like soulcaster, not just referring to the item itself but the person who uses it. It would match the name of the lift novella quite well and would make Rysn a dawnshard, which could be interesting. Please remember that this is all just random theory’s I made up on the spot.

Never tell secrets in the garden. The potatoes have eyes, the corn have ears, and the beanstalk.

YKYASW you get highlights in your hair and you realize, Oh my Shards, my hair is blonde and brown, I look like I'm from Roshar. Of course.... my hair is blonde, it just looks brown when I get out of the shower.

Vote for DramaQueen, the least dramatic candidate!

Treating it does not mean it goes away. Mental disorders are treated differently from physical health issues. Some mental disorders are for life. Shallan is always going to have her childhood trauma, and she will always be recovering from it. What her recovery will look like ten, twenty, fifty years down the line will be different from what it looks like now, but you don't heal from trauma as if it was a broken bone, healed and forgotten about.

Exactly, @Bliev. The calls for Kaladin to "get over it" infuriate me because I relate to his struggles so so much. I understand people want the best for him, and Shallan, and all of the characters they love... But I think presenting "the best" in a way that fits what readers want instead of a way that represents something that is actually healthy for people who deal with these issues is harmful and supports a culture that heavily stigmatizes mental health. I'm happy with the way Brandon has chosen to do things, and I expect with his research and specific choice to include a beta reader with DID means that he is going to take Shallan in a direction that is going to make a lot of people uncomfortable and that that is intentional and raises awareness of a real issue.

I concur with this. I think we're seeing stability and cooperation, but not growth. And Shallan is still insecure and anxious (which aligns with Veil's hints about how they need to "deal" with their past more), and doubts her own goodness and worthiness. But she doesn't run from that anxiety. She tries to deal with it directly and logically, which is an improvement over WOR and OB Shallan, for whom such doubt would have been the beginning of further disassociation, either by alter-standards, or just by denial and "acting" her role to avoid it. She's clearly not well. But I don't think her wellness is contingent upon looking "normal". I think, per your comments, wellness for Shallan means functionality and peace, not looking or thinking like everyone else. I really appreciate how you keep contextualizing how mental health stigma (and disability stigma in general) colors our interpretation of these characters. We want them to be "well" which codes as "normal". But you can be functional and not "typical". And our goals here (and in the real world) often don't track with people's lived experiences. When you listen, for instance, to autistic adults who decry certain therapies as attempts to change them in ways that ignore their autonomy and value, or to the Deaf community who have fought for distinctive identities and experiences throughout the years--these are complex issues that deserve our respect. I am glad that Brandon is giving us difficult things to consider while providing us with his normal action-packed plot movement. Because as much as we joke that we just want "Kaladin to be happy", well, guess what, he's never going to just be "happy". But he can be "well" in a way that keeps him functional and valued and important, without being "healed". It's just more realistic to me, and I appreciate it too. And he will still have bad days! And that's okay too.

I have pretty severe depression. I understand not wanting an issue despite living with it and coping, and reaching a place of equilibrium. But Brandon approaches mental illness in a way that attempts to present it as realistic. I'm not going to pretend I know what Shallan wants, but that's honestly not even relevant. Mental disorders do not care what you want. My fear here, and why I honestly hope that Shallan does not reintigrate, is that even if she did she would still have a dissociative disorder. There would always be a risk of relapse and alters. It would not be gone. That isn't how most readers would take it though. They would see it as Shallan was fixed. That her problem was gone and it's happily ever after. Which I'm certain for many would be a far more comfortable idea. It's just not the way mental health works.

Drank the suicide wine, delivered a "someone is going to kill me, there's a traitor amongst you!" idea to Shallan just to mess with her. Ialai was a ruthless spymaster for Sadeas, why not go out in an incredibly dramatic way that sows discord amongst your enemies?

You guys remember the escape door behind Ialai before she goes to get the wine right? Chekhov's Door anyone?

As she was in OB? No it wasn't. How she seems in these opening chapters? I don't see why not. I am kind of saying what you seem to think I am and am also saying nothing of the sort. Let me explain. As to mental health in general, I think it is heavily stigmatized to a point that any abnormality is viewed harshly enough that many people are frightened to even admit that they may have an issue to themselves. And this leads to the idea of "different is bad" that I was talking about. It's not that "no mental condition is unhealthy." It's that any mental condition can be unhealthy but they do not have to be. There's a reason I brought up earlier in the thread, the idea of the DSM diagnosis criteria and in many many cases "significant impairment" being a requirement of diagnosis. You can have symptoms of schizophrenia, but be functional and unimpaired and not qualify for a diagnosis. You can have Sociopathic traits and be functional and not qualify for a diagnosis. You can be plural, and be functional, and healthy and happy. Any mental condition can be a problem. My complaint comes from the insistence that in order to be "healthy" the condition must be eliminated. Because in the world of human psychology that is exceedingly rare.

That's... Honestly one of the reasons I hope Brandon goes the more real world route with the research and beta advice he's sought. Like I said, reintegration can be an endpoint goal, but it isn't always, or even necessarily a majority of the time. Brandon seems to generally try and approach "mental illness" from a viewpoint of it being a part of the character and not something that needs to be fixed. Recently, I've had the pleasure of interacting with someone who is a plurality and a fan of the books, and their perspective on Shallan has definitely aided me in seeing things in a different light. I just think with Brandon's history of trying to do better at representation of mental conditions and just diversity in general, I think Shallan being a character who finds stability within her neuro-divergence without being "fixed" is consistent with his normal approach.

The following picture is completely scandalous and should only be seen by mature and respectable people. The gloves I wear for marching band: As a clarinet, I don’t get fingers in my gloves.

While reading the Stormlight Archive books, I realized that spren are 'real life' emoticons. So naturally I made some emoticons involving spren. To use an emote, copy the link next to it in the parentheses and paste it into your post. You can also right-click the link and choose "Copy Link Location", then paste it in your message. 17thshard.com forums allow you to load pictures into your posts by pasting the URL of the image into the post's content. It may be helpful to save a .txt file in notepad with all of the links you prefer to use in order to copy and paste elsewhere. Also, more cosmere-themed emoticons are under construction. Enjoy: Alespren (http://i.imgur.com/ktwO0cb.gif) and static version (https://i.imgur.com/bbMSt3L.png) Angerspren (http://i.imgur.com/D6J6xRU.gif) and static version (https://i.imgur.com/cCqVYgw.png) Anticipationspren (http://i.imgur.com/BM44BrV.gif) and static version (https://i.imgur.com/1tjwhIn.png) Awespren (http://i.imgur.com/3YfOz4J.gif) and static version (https://i.imgur.com/VkpiJTb.png) Awespren (canon) (https://i.imgur.com/7C8wANr.gif) and static version (https://i.imgur.com/9xD7XH0.png) Bindspren (https://i.imgur.com/2tmDaoQ.gif) and static version (https://i.imgur.com/32yBzwl.png) Coldspren (https://i.imgur.com/uOFJI3L.gif) and static version (https://i.imgur.com/e137yIJ.png) Creationspren (http://i.imgur.com/THDwKRq.gif) and static versions (https://i.imgur.com/8lMJI4Z.png), (https://i.imgur.com/1bSjE7G.png), and (https://i.imgur.com/AH8WdWC.png) Fearspren (http://i.imgur.com/fwkGdLK.gif) and static version (https://i.imgur.com/RTfcvUl.png) Gloryspren (http://i.imgur.com/IiBDG5u.gif) and static version (https://i.imgur.com/60gRN2F.png) (alternate version) (http://i.imgur.com/0rFKCWU.gif) and static version (https://i.imgur.com/844IBnV.png) I edited the laughterspren to make it more visible, but left the old one up so links aren't broken: Laughterspren (https://i.imgur.com/HLCjBvQ.gif) and static version (https://i.imgur.com/YcigcGe.png) (alternate) (https://i.imgur.com/UVYzqQB.gif) and static version (https://i.imgur.com/IFaGQje.png) (old) (http://i.imgur.com/dk9SAg9.gif) (dark version) (http://i.imgur.com/twskx1S.gif) Shardblade (http://i.imgur.com/6tU3gRQ.gif) and static versions (https://i.imgur.com/PVjEeQv.png) and (https://i.imgur.com/6UkYJJG.png)

Welcome to the Shard! We hope your trip through inter-dimensional space to reach our lovely section of the internet was as enjoyable as possible. If you were traveling with any magical pets or items you will be able to retrieve them in the “Checking and Bagging” section of the spaceport. If you have any questions, our forum members tend to be well versed in the advanced art of “conversation” and “being a nice person.” Please do not hesitate to ask! As a precautionary screening measure, we would love to know what has been your favorite book in the Cosmere. If you would like to provide additional answers to verify your identity as not an evil being set on destroying us and everything we stand for, answers to questions such as, “What do you think of as the most critical event in the history of the Cosmere?” “What was the first book in the Cosmere that you read and do you wish you had started elsewhere?” and “Which magic system would you bring into the real world, if you could only choose one?” serve as useful measures of your non-evil identity. As for everything else, grab your bags and get ready for a ride, we hope you enjoy your stay here at the 17th Shard!

Homo Sapiens 5.0 “What is it?”, the youngling whispered. “Its outer skin is soft. It has no blades for fingers, or claws. How can it defend itself? Only four limbs. No fangs. No scales.” The elder said, “It is one of the ancients from the portal. From the time of peace and plenty.”

Our misunderstandings stem from the fact that there are too many Shallans. The WoK and early-mid WoR 'Shallan' (let's call her 'Shallan 2') is not the same as end-of-OB 'Shallan' (let's call her 'Shallan 3'). And that's because of exactly what you're saying - she's pushing things to Veil and Radiant. So yes, all those bad jokes, roguish behaviour and the rest, it was part of 'Shallan 2' - but is no longer part of current 'Shallan 3'. So where did I miss 'Shallan 1'? Here she is: Look, she's not at all relaxed here, and still she's most true to the most deep-down, nearly subconscious part of herself! Being out of control, that's an even better indication of what you're really hiding inside than being in a comfortable environment. One more: So yes, Veil and Radiant are coping mechanisms but so is 'Shallan 2' - the old coping mechanism she used after the trauma of killing her mother. She pushes away the parts that hurt too much, keeps the safe ones - still quite a bit, enough to eventually be distributed between Veil/Radiant/'Shallan 3'. Then adds on top some 'cautious Vorin society training' and the 'timidness' to hide from any next danger. Now, the problem is, 'Shallan 3' eventually gets an uneven share of 'Shallan 1'. And that's because she got all that 'added on top' part. She is the timid one, she is the well-behaved Vorin lady while Veil has more of her personality that wasn't crafted for the sake of survival, just always there. It doesn't even need to be fake. Just containing less truth than you would in either comfortable situation - or one when you'd not control yourself. So yeah, even if you don't tell one lie, you'll leave out the fact that your newly-met colleague's political views are absolutely ridiculous to you, won't you? A desire to feel ok is not the same as feeling ok. Ok, I'll try one last metaphor and I'm giving up - let's go back to those body parts, shall we. The brain is a more substantial to who you are than hair. They both exist. They are both parts of your body. But one you can remove and still be almost the same person as you were and another you can't. How did we just go from completely disagreeing to thinking exactly the same? I must have misunderstood.