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Showing content with the highest reputation on 04/16/2020 in all areas

  1. 259 points
    We have some exciting news to announce today. So far in order to obtain some unpublished works of Brandon's, you'd have to email him through his sites, and his assistants would distribute them. Well now you won't need to wait for that, because now we will be in charge of distributing out Aether of Night! All you have to do is post in this topic (you'll need a 17S account, but that's it), and our staff will PM you the document. Once we do this, we'll remove your post here. We'll be using this topic as a to-do list for requests. Ideally since we have lots of staff members, we will get this out to you soon, within a week or two. With this change we are unpasswording the Aether of Night board, as now all of you will have access to it if you want it. You may discuss Aether of Night in the Cosmere Theories board, but tag your topic title with [Aether]. We hope you're excited about this, so many of you will be able to get this text in a much more obvious way now! You will receive a .docx file, and if you need to convert it into a .pdf or .epub, there are many converters to do that for you. (We are not distributing the prose version of White Sand, as that will continue to be distributed in Brandon's newsletters.) Thank you Dragonsteel for letting 17S do this! EDIT 10/21/2020: This is all still going! We've gone through over 200 pages of replies distributing. It's just that we remove posts here once we send them out.
  2. 127 points
    Hey, all. Brandon here. With the release of this book, there have been some minor updates to continuity that I think some of you will find relevant. The big one has to do with Hoid's visit to Terris in The Well of Ascension. For those unfamiliar with the backstory, this little behind-the-scenes action has been a source of some consistent problems. The outline, and original draft, of Well had Vin and Elend traveling up to Terris, then into the mountains, to find the Well itself. This was a huge momentum killer in the story. Having your cityscape-focused book suddenly turn into a traveling quest fantasy for a few chapters felt very out of place, and required too much strange time-jumping to make it work. In revisions, I set about finding a way to repair this, and to overlap the Well of Ascension discovery with Vin's return to Luthadel. The end result worked much better, but I was forced to cut Hoid's cameo. (In the form of footsteps in the snow and frost leading to the Well, hinting that someone had been there just before her.) I knew where Hoid was, and added in the cameo of him with the Terris people—with the plan still being that he visited the Well sometime during the days after Vin's return to the city. Well, in working on Secret History, I found that this had a problem with it. Hoid had to already know where the Well is, because after the destruction of the Pits, he'd need to use the Well to return to Scadrial after leaving in the middle of book one to attend to certain other events. If you've read the story, you know this is how I proceeded. Official continuity is that Hoid went up to Terris after visiting the Well, as he had things to do there. He did not go looking for the Well. This doesn't change continuity for any of the books, though it does render one of the annotations for Well obsolete. Otherwise, I'm quite pleased about this novella. I wasn't certain how it would go, writing something using threads I'd left dangling ten years ago. (You should thank the beta readers, who are all Sharders I believe, for their continuity help. They made me aware pf several things I needed to make much more clear from the original draft, so that canon would be more crisp.) I know there has been a lot of discussion regarding which times when someone appears to hear Kelsier's voice were actually Kelsier. The story offers the official canon for this as well. It's nice to finally be able to give the answers to some longtime fan questions, such as what spooked Vin during her inspection of Hoid and what was up with Preservation and the Mist Spirit. It's entirely possible that, despite our efforts, we slipped up and made some continuity error here or there. If so, I'm terribly sorry! This one has been particularly challenging to do. Thanks, as always, for reading.
  3. 45 points
    @Wiresegal and I patched together Kal's rendition of Frozen's Let it go, as sung by Kaladin from stormlight (Syl too) [she helped with the sylllables] also thanks to @shallan314 for the inspiration (image credit goes to botanica) [Verse 1] [Kaladin] The storm burns bright in my pocket tonight Not a windspren to be seen A kingdom of oaths now broken And it looks like he’s the king The highstorm howls but I've got no storm inside Couldn't keep my Oaths, Tien knows I've tried [Pre-Chorus 1] [Syl] Go lead your men, don't let them see Be the Stormblessed you always had to be Conceal, don't feel, don't let it show Well, now they know! [Chorus 1] [Kaladin] Let it go, let it go I've been here before Let it go, let it go We save them as Bridge Four! I don't care what they all will say Let this storm rage on The winds never bothered me anyway. [Verse 2] [Syl] It's funny how the sky's view Can make everything seem small [Kaladin] And the fears that once destroyed me I push beyond them all! [Pre-Chorus 2] [Sigzil] It's time to see what this can do To test the limits and break through Do right, not wrong, Ideals to keep you're free! [Chorus 2] [Kaladin] Let it go, let it go I am one with the wind and sky Let it go, let it go You'll never see them die Here I stand, in winds I claim Let the storm rage on! [Bridge] [Kaladin] My power banished as I fell below the ground My soul is spiraling in frozen fractals all around And one thought drives me, even in the darkest night. To protect those I hate, so long as it is right! [Chorus 3] [Kaladin] Let it go, let it go I will stand like a Knight of old Let it go, let it go What's broken shines like gold! [Syl and Kaladin] Here we stand, with our Bond still strong! Let both storms rage on! The skies never bothered us anyway.
  4. 40 points
    We've all taken jabs at trying to figure out what the Sibling may be about. The Community's Take General consensus is that there's three Shards on Roshar, and three Bondsmiths, so if the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and the Sibling are the three Bondsmith spren (which they are), then the Stormfather corresponds to Honor (which he does), the Nightwatcher to Cultivation (which "she" does), and the Sibling either corresponds to Odium, or is a mix in between Honor and Cultivation. For obvious reasons, it wouldn't make sense for the Sibling to be associated with Odium and still be a part of Surgebinding, so we tend to lean towards the "mix between Honor and Cultivation" more. Another general thing we tend to believe about the Sibling is that they are tied to Urithiru in some way, and may power even power the city. And the last well believed fact about the Sibling is that they are intricately tied to Stone. I know Calderis has a theory on why the Nightwatcher might be stone instead, but that's his to discuss. I'm gonna try and offer a different take on some of these points, and provide additional context to others. Whose magic is Surgebinding? The question asks it all. There's some fuzziness with what happened on Ashyn, but from what we know, the specific powerset of Radiant Surgebinding was first seen in the Honorblades. This implies that the exact specifics, at least, were first defined by Honor. If you look at the Heralds, we have 5 Male Heralds and 5 Female Heralds - a near perfect divide, with all the Male Heralds bunched up around what seems to be the Honor-half of the chart, whereas the Female Heralds bunched up around the Cultivation-half. Then we have spren copying Honorblades. This fact alone makes things very fuzzy. On one side, the spren are... essentially on a spectrum of Honor and Cultivation, with some spren having more Honor and others having more Cultivation. Yet others, like the Stormfather and Nightwatcher, are almost guaranteed to be nearly a 100% one or the other. But the pattern breaks a little if you try and match the spren to the Heralds. By association, a.) Windrunners, Skybreakers, Willshapers, Stonewards and Bondsmiths should be closer to Honor, whereas b.) Dustbringers, Edgedancers, Truthwatchers, Lightweavers and Elsecallers should lean towards Cultivation. And this works, until you look at the Bondsmiths. The Nightwatcher, who should practically be all Cultivation, is a Bondsmith spren, meaning that in Surgebinding, Cultivation is technically more present than Honor. This is despite Brandon telling us on atleast one occasion that the original Knights Radiants were focused more on Honor and his spren (which, depending on how you read it, could and couldn't conflict with Cultivation's presence in the magic). There's a third way of dividing the system too. You could theoretically say that Surgebinding is of both Shards because a.) All Radiants speak Oaths, which come from Honor, and b.) All Radiants have to grow over a total of five Oaths, which evokes the presence of Cultivation I'm going to put forth the idea that there is a third element here, but let's hold these two in mind, for now. When in doubt, stare at the Surgebinding Chart. When most people think of what the Surgebinding Chart tells us, they tend to think that all it tells us is that there are 10 orders, 10 Surges, and that each order gets 2 Surges, and that each Surge is shared between two orders, in a cyclic pattern. Usually, we tend to think that all the extra connections don't matter, and that they're there just for fluff. But, @Master_Moridinfound something interesting. The extra connections start making somewhat more sense once you pull in the Soulcasting Essences. Here's the full graph, and because not all of you are maniacs who have it by heart, I've gone forth and labeled it too: (it is definitely interesting that the whole thing looks like a gemstone) Smoke, for example, is connected to Fire, Wind, and Oil. Stone connects to metal, crystal (both come from the ground), water (crem), and flesh/meat/sinew (don't ask). They don't all immediately fall in place, because we think there's more weight to these connections in a metaphorical or philosophical sense, and there are also some thematic Order connections that we're wondering about. The Actual Theory However, an interesting thing happens when we zoom in on the Bondsmiths. Usually, when we think of the Bondsmiths, we think that they have two surges (Adhesion and Tension), and are adjacent to Windrunners (by Adhesion), and Stonewards (by Tension). Which is fine, except in the full chart, Bondsmiths don't have two, but three adjacent Orders: The Stormfather tells Dalinar that his is the power of Connection, so I can see why "Sinew" or "Flesh/Meat" could be associated with his order. But the interesting thing is the three (yep, three) essences they connect to - Wind, Stone, and Pulp/Wood/Plant Matter. I could sit here and establish a line of reasoning from the Essences to the three Bondsmith spren, but it's pretty simple from here on out. The Eila Stele mentions three Gods, of Wind, Spren and Stone. The Wind can pretty easily be attributed to the Stormfather, both because wind, and because his relation to Honorspren and the Windrunners. The Nightwatcher, by the virtue of color green, her home-base of the Valley and connection to Cultivation as "her heir", and indirectly through an excerpt from Rhythm of War, can associate with the Truthwatchers, the essence of Pulp/Wood/Plant Matter, and the "God of spren" from the Eila Stele. This leaves the Sibling, and Stone. So yes, I'm establishing a harder line of reasoning for why the Sibling should associate with Stone. But far more importantly, this establishes the Sibling and the Nightwatcher as being to the Stonewards and Truthwatchers what the Stormfather is to the Windrunners. And for more importantly, this can tell us a little bit more about the Sibling. Earlier, I established two components in Radiant Surgebinding: Oaths from Honor, and Growth from Cultivation. Which works, until you consider that Radiance actually has three elements - the third is that all Radiants are also completely dependent on Stormlight, which is responsible for the literal radiance in Radiance. And even before the death of Honor, the Stormfather is disproportionally more important than any other spren to Surgebinding, as he is the source of all Stormlight. So my theory: All three Bondsmith-spren are intricately tied to Radiance itself. a.) The Stormfather provides Stormlight, representing Honor's Power in Surgebinding b.) The Nightwatcher should be tied to Growth, representing Cultivation's association with Growth in Surgebinding c.) The Sibling should be the spren closely tied to Oaths themselves, representing Honor's association with Oaths in Surgebinding And this works on multiple levels. See, Stone being associated with the very concept of Oaths makes perfect sense - Stone is hard, and it weathers Storms but it doesn't break. An Oath, on a world where Honor resides, is this... abstract thing that must never be broken, and must weather all adversity. Perhaps this is also where the Oathstone of Truthless comes from culturally, and may have ties to Shin veneration of Stone. Another potential way this works is if you look at Stonewards and their attributes - Dependable and Resourceful. It also works if you look at Taln, who was the only one of the Heralds by Aharietam to have never bent his Oath and let the Singers pass. One thing that this implies is that out of the three Bondsmith, both the Stormfather and the Sibling are of Honor, and the Nightwatcher is of Cultivation. Another thing this implies is the reason why the Sibling may have gone to sleep, at least from a narrative perspective. We have two things we know about this: Oaths are about perception and belief - a Knight Radiant and their spren must believe in them and they mean what the KR and spren believe they should. From the Gem archive, we have at least one excerpt which says that the Knights Radiant may have been questioning their own worthiness (perhaps soon after Honor "raved" at them), and that this might be tied to something happening to the Sibling. The Stormfather mentions that "you" (which I read as the humans) "have hurt them enough" What I'm trying to get at, here, is that if the Sibling is... somehow intricately tied to the Oaths and the keeping of Oaths (Stone), then it makes complete sense that the mass breaking of Oaths at the Recreance was not pleasant for them. This means that as Radiants start speaking Oaths, the Sibling may start re-awakening. And if the Sibling is similarly tied to Urithiru, then the Sibling's re-awakening may be intricately tied to the re-awakening of Urithiru. This may be what the blob for RoW may be alluding to. In conclusion, here's the structure I'm implying: I want to dig into what I think this implies for the magic of Roshar in general here (including Voidbinding), but this is already too long, so for now this is it.
  5. 35 points
    Welcome one and all to another edition of The Adventures of Slaveboi and Jeffrey Dean Morgan! Over the last month during our lockdown here in South Africa, I have read up to chapter 37 and here are some reactions: - First thing to note is that Tay has 100% gotten aboard the Shallan hate train. When we read the chapter where Kaladin and Bridge Four does the side carry and messes up Sadeas' battle plan, Tay was very excited to keep going. As soon as I read "Sometimes, when Shallan walked into the Palaneum," Tay shouted "No! Ungh! Why does it always have to be Shallan! She ruins EVERYTHING!" Thereafter followed an intense debate about whether we could skip that Shallan chapter to see what happens to Kaladin right away. We did so. - When Bridge Four is training and following orders from Kaladin, Tay likes to sing "I'll Make a Man Out of You" from Mulan. We then had a nice laugh imagining Teft, Rock, and Moash in concubine drag breaking into Kholinar Palace. - "Why can Rock see Syl? Is he some kind of mountain yogi esoteric boi? Like baby Yoda?" (a few minutes later) "Chris stop. I got distracted. We have to watch a video of Baby Yoda before we keep reading." - When Tay realized that Kal was going to be strung up in the storm: "Oh he's gonna go Super Saiyan! They're gonna be like 'hey die in the storm' and he's gonna be like 'b**** I am the storm'." - Reacting to the quote about Nohadon walking from Abamabar to Urithiru, Tay starts singing "500 Miles" by the Proclaimers. That was, interestingly, the song that she walked down the aisle to and what we walked out together to when we got married since we were in a long-distance relationship for years. Coulda used some Oathgates during that time, lemme tell ya. - At one point I had to explain the basics of Fabrials (felt a little like Navani talking to Dalinar). Went into how you had to lure a spren in with something that it likes and then trap it in a gemstone so that it could do the thing you want, like be a heating Fabrial. Tay got very upset at this, as she sees spren like little animals that are being confined in Fabrials, so she has decided to start an organization like S.P.E.W. from Harry Potter. She also insisted it was to have the same acronym and spent a few minutes coming up with "Spren... have a PURPOSE! Every - Where! Ha! SPEW: Spren have a Purpose Every Where!" Which I think is noble, but also sounds like it could definitely be a pro-Fabiral lobby as well. - In a quote in the epigraphs of part 3, Jasnah's notes talk about the Dawnshards. Tay felt like this was a comparable phrase to having an erection first thing in the morning. - Once we got back to a Shallan chapter: "Why must fantasy writers make redheads hot? Why do we insist on thinking that Ginny Weasley is somehow hot? She isn't hot. Fantasy writers: Stop trying to make Ginny Weasley happen." - Tay also pointed out how Shallan would often raise a hand to her 'breast' instead of her 'chest', thus subtly sexualizing her in a way that a character like Kaladin or Dalinar wouldn't be. I'm gonna keep an eye out for it, but I doubt there is any mention of Kaladin's breast. It was fun to imagine a sexualized Kaladin, however, going outside the Bridge Four barrack and stretching out his tight, muscley butt for all the lumberworkers to check out. - Probably the chapter that Tay has enjoyed most is "The Lesson" where Jasnah faces down the murderers in the alleys of Kharbranth. There was a lot of "Yeah!"s and "That's my GIRL"s and a notable "Princess Jasnah - THE FEMINIST ICON WE NEED!" happening throughout the latter half of the chapter when Jasnah was explaining her modus operandi to a shell-shocked Shallan. That's all for now! Wash your hands, ya filthy cremlings!
  6. 19 points
    Hello! This is a Cosmere inspired work--a draft. And I'm looking for any feedback, tips or suggestions. This piece tells the story of the ship "the winds pleasure", from "Words of Radiance". When you hear it, what do you see? Thank you for listening and enjoy! ~ Spock https://drive.google.com/open?id=1dZsaJgwtYWzDKvrm4O4hvl9HCMmQDWrr or The Wind's Pleasure (draft 1).wav
  7. 17 points
    Ugghhh.....the thread blew up in my absence again... Beware the long post. I see that my comments are again applicable. But first, I want to outline the points I want to address: Thanks for clarifying. Definitely a cremhole move then... First off... Yes. On Shallan's part I think this was absolutely a cremhole move. I think Adolin got caught up in the moment. This was done to prove a point, though I think it was more to herself than to Adolin. More on this in a minute. You are partially correct and incorrect on this point. @SLNC does a good job of making a reply to this, but I'd like to tackle it from another angle. Get to that in a minute. This stems from an issue within Shallan, and I think it has to do with her deliberate degradation of him throughout Oathbringer. This is part of point #1. Good points here. There's definitely something different about the way Shallan treats Pattern versus Kaladin & Syl. More in a minute. Finally! Someone else mentioned this! Point #4. Lots of speculation in this paragraph. Shallan's conflicts are not just rooted in the past, like Dalinar. A lot of Shallan's issues are current, but have context from the past to further amplify the issue. The severely underlying problem, however, is rooted in the past and is absolutely one which must be resolved for her character to grow. Point #5. I have been thinking if a divorce happened it would come from Adolin. I think Shallan is too dependent on Adolin to divorce him and we have seen him try to break up with her already. I really do not know what to expect. I want to see Shallan more honest, but I don't know what the impetus will be for her to do that. She is going to need a shove. I don't see her gradually overcoming her problem. I foresee disaster. I got a lot to say on this topic. But I will try to make point #6 brief. Well put as always, my friend. This will be covered in points 1 & 2. Aaand yes, you're right that this is from Kal's POV, but taking this one line in Oathbringer to prove your point ignores both the context that follows (as SLNC pointed out) and the fact that, while Kaladin himself never had time for art (he was a soldier, always consumed with caring for him men), I think there is ample evidence in WoR and Oathbringer that he appreciates it. This is not a focus for this post, so I won't say more. I will be doing a reread of the entire SA soon, so I will look for evidence to support my statement at that time. Now. Here we go. Please bear in mind I do not have a physical copy of OB and am largely going off of my memory, so I may get some things wrong. Point # 1 - Shallan's degrading of Kaladin as a person is an attempt to demonize him and glorify Adolin. Shallan, as has been pointed out repeatedly, has a lot of mental issues going on here. From her appearance on the Shattered Plains in Words of Radiance, to the final marriage at the end of Oathbringer, Shallan and Kaladin have sparked like wildfire. There's ample textual evidence to support this--I'm not going to get into the debate on whether or not the potential was there. Suffice it to say, in the chasm scene in WoR, Shallan revealed more of her true self to Kaladin than she has done to anyone else in the SA, Hoid excluded, and Kaladin exposed himself to her as well. That kind of discourse creates a connection between people, and is largely the root for the "love triangle arc" that we see in OB. I'll admit wholeheartedly that I initially didn't like the way this was handled, but after some time and distance, I'm starting to see that this was actually very clever plot manipulation on Brandon's part. Back to my point, Shallan opened herself up to Kaladin in a very intimate way, and that occurrence is actually what caused this backlash in OB. She recognized that there was something there within her for Kaladin, but she wants Adolin. I've said it before and I'll say it again here: Adolin represents everything that Shallan wants and should have had in life. He is the charismatic lighteyes, the kind of man that every light-eyed girl dreamed of marrying. And he's here. He's obtainable. Had her life gone normally, she might have been married off to a lighteyed man like him, gotten married, had children, and had a happy family. Taking that into account, she clings to Adolin with a surprising level of franticness, desperate to hold on to this one part of her life that is going the way that it should. Look at the dialogue--every time she thinks Adolin is about to leave, she panics. Some part of her, buried deeply to be sure, is aware that Kaladin is an equally suited match, but on a surface level (which is where she operates for most of OB), she believes that Adolin is the one for her. Shallan (on the surface) doesn't want Adolin to leave. For any reason. So she retaliates at Kaladin. She demonizes him, scorns him, and even paints a picture of a really ugly man over him with lightweaving to further contrast that Adolin is the desirable one. You can also look at the dialogue--at the way she describes Kaladin when she is "Shallan"--she belittles him and almost caricaturizes him in her mind. Contrast that to Veil's reactions to Kaladin, which are much more reasonable and take into account more than just his brooding eyes, and that at the beginning of OB the vast majority of mentions of Kaladin's whereabouts and situation come from her POV. And that leads me to point # 2... Point # 2 - What we see in Oathbringer are three personas, with very little of the real Shallan in textual evidence. We also see Veil become more and more like the true Shallan (the one we've read in WoK and OB), while "Shallan" becomes a caricature of "Shallan, the light-eyed girl". First off, I would like to clarify that there is a difference between "persona" and "personality". A personality could be considered a separate entity, and would probably manifest as a different person in Shadesmar. A persona is an act, or a role, that a person assumes for a specific person, and would not manifest as a separate or distinct person in Shadesmar. Therefore, understand that when I say that "Shallan", Veil and Radiant are personas, I mean that they are all roles and acts. Let's recap. At the end of WoR, Shallan is confronted with a Truth that she is not ready to face. Her downward spiral and mental degradation actually begins here, during her breakdown where she laments that she wants her family. Her foundation of mentally ignoring what happened in the past has been cracked and has begun to crumble beneath her feet. She has to shore that up somehow to keep from falling into the abyss that is the broken, frightful monster she fears she truly is. She does this in multiple ways, and we see the beginnings of this at the beginning of OB. I'm not going to go into extreme detail (this will be a big part of my Shallan analysis during the reread), but suffice it to say that Shallan is left raw at the end of WoR, and rather than facing her problems begins to funnel herself into her personas, slicing off pieces of herself (mentally) to augment each of their "personalities" with a bit of herself and make the transition easier. While Veil was originally created for the purpose of infiltrating the Ghostbloods, in OB Veil took on a more realistic tone as Shallan used her to navigate Urithiru in secret. Shallan, by this point, was a very recognizable person, and in order to operate in stealth, she took the guise of Veil. However, when the killings by Re-Shephir began, she felt the need to go deeper into these personas--not because she needed more knowledge of infiltration (which Veil did not have, since she was still Shallan), but rather because as her personas she could ignore the pain of her previous Truth. Pattern also represents that pain, so she needed to create a persona to mentally sidestep that pain. The deeper she went, however, the more she sought to bury the true Shallan. She became "Shallan", a young woman who was easily distracted, who cared little for science (though that had always been the primary reason behind her art, as evidenced by her inner dialogue in WoR), who was "in love" with Adolin and thought Kaladin was "a pretty picture". You can actually see this transformation occur over the course of Oathbringer. Veil, then, her first persona, gradually began to take on more and more of the true Shallan, as "Shallan" perpetually siphoned off the parts of her that were not what she thought she wanted or needed to be. This is why the collapse of Veil near the end of OB was such a drastic situation for Shallan--up until this point, she'd been using Veil more and more to be herself, as "Shallan" had to be someone else. And yet, because of her very proficient mental gymnastics, Veil was still a different identity so she didn't have to hurt, as Shallan did. Therefore, when Veil failed in Kholinar to save anyone (despite her best efforts), Shallan became lost. Veil had actually become the grounding persona, the one closest to Shallan herself, and now, suddenly Veil hurt. She couldn't be Veil anymore--to do so would be to face that pain. But she because of this she was lost. She didn't know who she was anymore, and she couldn't pick to ground herself because she'd been shying away from who she was for so long. Thus, when Adolin squeezed her hand and she stopped at "Shallan", she immediately jumped on it and said "He knows who I am!" Because, at that moment, she could not function without an outside source to tell her who she was. As others have pointed out, we see that this is not truly the case at the end of OB. She has not suddenly grounded herself, but she has decided that she needs to be "Shallan," because "Adolin knows who I am, so that must be who I am." However, the true Shallan by this point has been siphoned off to Veil and Radiant. Veil's much more toned down at the end. Veil hurts too much, so we barely see Shallan dip back into Veil after that, but the evidence is there when even Radiant begins to side with Veil, and Shallan begins wearing Veil's clothing as herself instead of just as Veil. Point # 3 - Shallan's relationship with Pattern is a dark reflection of Kaladin's relationship with Syl. There's a key phrase at the end of WoR and beginning of OB that is largely ignored in the discussion with regards to Shallan and Pattern's relationship: End of Words of Radiance: Shallan say she hates Pattern. Pattern replies with "I know..." Beginning of Oathbringer: Pattern acknowledges that Shallan hates him, and Shallan doesn't refute that fact, though she replies with "I hate myself, too." This is an underlying current with Shallan and Pattern, and it's a dark reflection of Kaladin and Syl. Kaladin needs Syl, Shallan needs Pattern. Kaladin, however, cherishes Syl and I think, truly views Syl as almost like his best, most closest friend. He shows several times in OB that he is concerned about his bond with Syl, and in Shadesmar, he has just suffered a psychological blow. I don't think their relationship is in question here--Kaladin loves Syl, Syl loves Kaladin, and it's not romantic in any way. Shallan and Pattern, on the other hand, have a very different relationship. Pattern obviously wants the bond to progress, but I think Pattern truly wants Shallan to progress as well. I think he genuinely cares about Shallan's well being. He states several times that what she is doing with her mental gymnastics is dangerous and not right. Shallan, meanwhile, has a very deeply buried hatred for Pattern. She acknowledges that he is necessary as part of her Radiancy, but she hates what he represents, she hates what he has forced her to do. I would argue that without Pattern's intervention in WoR, Shallan's arc in OB would have been very, very different. When Shallan and Pattern separate in the sea of beads, I really do think this is symbolic as well as literal. Yes, Shallan in her academic mind would know that Pattern would be just fine in Shadesmar--it's his home, after all. But she doesn't show the care for Pattern that Kaladin shows for Syl. Yes, Adolin would have been in trouble without help, since he didn't have stormlight. That's a valid point. I don't think the symbolism here is that Shallan is choosing Adolin over Pattern--I think the symbolism is that Shallan is choosing to be "Shallan", which (back to my above point) since Adolin represents everything she should have had, and "Shallan" is the persona of that part of her, she is choosing that over healing and coming to an understanding of who she is. Which brings me to... Point # 4 - Lightweavers do not swear oaths beyond the first. They speak Truths as a means of becoming self-aware. Shallan, therefore, in turning away from her problems is fraying the Nahel bond she shares with Pattern. She is not "breaking oaths" as Kaladin had done with Syl. However, she is, in fact, regressing from her Truths. She is turning away from becoming self aware, instead turning to other people to determine what or who she must be. This is the exact opposite of the process of declaring her Truths, and therefore it is not a stretch to imagine that the bond is suffering because of it. Kaladin was on the path to breaking his oath to Syl to "protect those who cannot protect themselves," of which his duty to Elhokar was an extension. He did not break the oath, therefore he did not break the bond. However, his decisions during that period of time were a step in the opposite direction of his oaths, so the bond was strained. This is a direct parallel to Shallan's relationship with Pattern in OB. Point # 5 - The Root of all Shallan's problems lie with Lin, but most of her problems are due to her continued habit of running away from her problems. I will make this brief, since this will be part of the coming analysis, but Shallan's habits of running from her problems began with Lin covering up her mother's death. While I understand the necessity at the time, the entire family encouraged Shallan that it was okay not to think of the death, and this was further encouraged by the family's reticence to talk about it. The point was made that if Shallan can come to grips with her past that everything will be okay--I hope my discourse here has shown that that's not the case. Her problems are in her mental schema--in her methods of excising from her mind the things she doesn't want to think about. Point # 6A - Shallan jumped into marriage because of the emotion at the time, and because Adolin wanted to step back. I know some here will disagree with this statement, and that's okay. But I agree with @Dreamstorm and @wotbibliophile. I don't think the decision to marry Adolin was one of carefully thought out and weighed options. Marriage is a commitment, and it's something that should not be just jumped into, but that's exactly what Shallan did. As I mentioned before, Shallan clings to Adolin desperately, and every time she thinks he is going to step back for some reason, she pounces on the opportunity to reinforce that that's not the case. This is born of insecurity on her part. Point #6B - "Shallan is too dependent on Adolin" and why a divorce will likely not occur. As I've hopefully explained here, it's not that Shallan is dependent on Adolin, per se, but rather that he is and represents what she thinks she wants. Unless she comes to some startling self-awareness between books 3 & 4, I seriously doubt Shallan intentionally divorce Adolin because of a change of heart. As of the end of OB, she is largely still unaware of who she is. She thinks she is "Shallan" because Adolin says so, but I think the arrival of her brothers is going to point out that she's not being honest. Her brothers will likely recognize she is missing her love of natural science. They will probably remark on the changes in her personality. This will happen over time, but in large part she wants to be with Adolin. Adolin, on the other hand, will probably not divorce Shallan. He's tired of courting, and Shallan is pretty much the girl of his dreams. He's finally got her hand in marriage. Yes, he might step back if Shallan told him that she loves Kaladin, but I don't see that happening any time soon. Right now, Shallan's arc with Adolin and Kaladin is at a pseudo-resting place. I think both Shallan and Kaladin have things they have to work through before there can be a possibility that they will have a meaningful relationship. Kaladin was not at a place in OB to pursue one, and Shallan really wasn't either. For that matter, when we analyze things like plots, we have to look at what a plot stands to gain or lose by a specific occurrence. Divorce is a big deal, and I think one of the reasons it's so touted is because we all like Adolin. Divorce is the easiest way for us to possibly have a Shalladin relationship without getting rid of Adolin entirely. "Adolin and Shallan get divorced, and then we still get to enjoy Adolin while Shallan and Kaladin get together." In terms of plot, however, what do we stand to gain from this, other than the pleasure of all three characters staying alive? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It creates unnecessary relationship drama (that dreaded "love triangle" thing we all hate), but other than that, it doesn't serve the plot. Adolin is not a main character, so most of the angst from that will come from Shallan, which we don't want to read. In fact, isn't that the exact thing that most of us are against? Plus, Brandon doesn't really do relationship drama like we would see in a more romance-centric plot. Now, I know the argument floats out there that it's a terrible thing for main characters to get together because all we read is relationship drama, yada yada. Think of the relationships throughout his various series, however. The best example is Vin and Elend. Both are viewpoint characters. Both are in love with each other and marry each other, but their relationship never gets in the way of the plot. That's not how Brandon writes, so I doubt divorce is really on the table. Therefore, if Brandon is setting us up with a love triangle and not resolving it in a seemingly satisfactory, it stands to reason that it is going to affect the plot. He doesn't just put that stuff in there for drama, but because these things are crucial to the way he wants these characters to develop. This is why I have stated before that we stand to gain more, plotwise, from Adolin's untimely removal from the scene (via death, dark Adolin, etc), rather than a divorce. A good example of what I am talking about is Sazed and Tindwyl. Sazed and Tindwyl were only a romantic item for a brief period of time--however, her death devastated Sazed and catapulted him into his entire arc for HoA. I believe that Brandon has set Adolin up for a similar fall--personally, I'd rather see him die than go dark. I'd love for Adolin to be the shining guy he is right up to the end. And that death would exponentially serve the plot better than his continued existence. It would impact Kaladin, sure, but Shallan and Dalinar would have severe blowbacks, from this, I think. To head off the more erroneous arguments "But Dalinar didn't react to--" "But we never saw Navani mourn--" "But the Maya revival arc--" "But I'd rather Shallan leave and be happy than try to stay in an unhappy marriage--"
  8. 17 points
    Hi all! I'm finally back - hope you all enjoyed your break from me So I've spent 2 days catching up on the 20+ pages you all wrote over the last 2 weeks (or is it 3?) and found it all a very interesting read - but far too much to comment on each point individually! Well done! Anyway, I've been re-reading over Christmas but with family dramas and other animals, I haven't finished it yet, but I've slowly been bringing together some thoughts and I'll probably share them in some detail in a week or 2. With regards to some threads here that have arisen, I have some thoughts I'd like to add: Regarding Adolin's reaction to finding out Shallan's murdering her parents; I think Adolin will be horrified initially but come to terms with the fact of the murders quite quickly, and likely be pretty decent about the whole thing. I suspect that it will be some time before Shallan confides in him (indeed I doubt it will happen in the time skip because it should be something we see on screen) and I think he will understandably be more upset about her hiding it from him for so long. He will be especially hurt if he finds out she told Kaladin about her father's death but not him. I think there are a few things that lead me to think she won't reveal the murder: Her brothers are around now and they were complicit in her father's death. She won't want them hurt by the murder so she might admit that her father is dead, but not how it happened. I think Balat in particular would be happier to put the episode behind him. She worries how Adolin will react. I don't think this is fair to Adolin - he has a right to know what she has done. On top of that she is giving him no credit. She cannot afford to be seen as a murderess by society if she is to help lead the KR (this is certainly up for debate, but I think that Alethi society will frown upon her and Adolin if she is known to have killed her parents - regardless of the curcumastances) Of the two murders, the more chilling one is definitely the murder of Lin Davar - it was planned - she tried to poison him first and had probably had the idea in the back of her mind for a long time given how long she kept the Blackbane for - it was probably a subconscious thought, but there nonetheless. It was in self-defence technically, but there is a sociopathic element to it - indeed of the 4 children present, only Shallan can act. This act has some similarities with what Adolin does with Sadeas. The difference is that Adolin shows very little remorse (he is worried about being caught, but he isn't sorry about it). Shallan on the other hand seems much more remorseful. That might just be my take on it, and not sure it matters that much. The point I am trying to make is that their actions are not so dissimilar but Shallan herself doesn't open up to Adolin. Note I am less cncerned with Tyn's murder - not only was that self defence, but given the way in which Shallan arrived on the Shattered Plains (she admits to having been shipwrecked) any sensible person would have considered that Shallan may have had to manage some very difficult situations. I don't think Adolin assumes Shallan killed or anything like that, but he isn't stupid (tho I don't consider him terribly bright either) so he must hve realised her journey couldnt have been as smooth as she implied. So why do I think Adolin will initially be horrified? Well he's normal. Shallan's reaction (ie nothing) to Adolin's declaration of his murder of Sadeas was decidedly odd. Adolin is much more grounded and stable so he'll handle the situation in a "normal" way - ie probably be horrified - though I don't think he'll get angry or condemnatory to Shallan - but he will have a strong emotional reaction - indeed it may be sympathy for her - tho I wonder if she will reject that - she is not good at "being protected". As long as he lets her get the full story out then he will likely be supportive. The issue I have is how he does it. If he thinks she is effectively possesed by Radiant and Veil rather than accepting they are part of her then he might try to encourage her to place the blame on one of her alts which is not the case because the alts only appeared in OB as a direct consequence of her 4th Ideal. Ok point 2: Shallan's personas/masks I am very much in the camp that Shallan is a sufferer of OSDD. Having re-read about 2/3rds of OB with full notetaking I am very comfortable with this as a provisional diagnosis. If we accept this diagnosis then we need to be very careful about how we term her various facets. There have been a number of ways we have covered it in this thread, but it is vital that everyone commenting understands what is meant. OSDD is a form of dissociation. It usually happens in people who experienced extreme abuse during childhood (though it is a rare condition overall and by no means the only possibly outcome of an abusive childhood). It results in a "core" personality fragmenting. It is a bit like the way Adonalsium was fractured - the shards make sense on their own (to an extent) but when viewed in context of the whole, it changes the way each shard's intent manifests. See the letter in tWoK (I think) about Odium being God's divine hatred being separarted from the context of the other intents. Shallan is currently in 3 alters known as Shallan, Veil, and Radiant. There is unlikely to be another "hidden" alter but it is technically possible. However by definition we haven't got proof. The best proof of one would be the uncoscious drawings she does of Urithiru and Nergaoul in Part 1 of OB but an alter is not necessary for those drawings to exist - she has other dissociative states she retreats to and this is most likely the result of one of those. It is very important in OSDD to understand that each alter is vital to the whole personality. Even a small fragment (eg Radiant seems the "smallest" - ie least complex) is still intrinsic to a personality because of the way it can impact other more "important" traits. For example, Radiant's pragmatism might have prevented Veil from making the mistakes she makes in Kholinar because she'd have stayed more divorced from proceedings than we see Veil do - and that might have meant that Grund didn't die, or Veil would have handled the whole situation better. In tWoK and WOR in contrast, Shallan only uses personas - they are masks for her to put on and discard as she likes - she doesn't think dramatically differently when wearing the faces of the maid at Amaram's, or Amaram himself - but she starts to do so in Kholinar in OB as a result of OSDD. This is important. Shallan does wear a persona for Adolin - thats normal for a girl who has essentially been set up on an epic level blind date with a Prince. Of course she tries to hide her feet of clay. The issue I have is that she hasn't really tried to reveal herself fully to Adolin and now they are married. I personally wouldn't mind her being cagey still if they weren't married, but they are - and Adolin has no idea about what he's got himself into and she hasn't actually given him a chance. Once again, I don't think this is very fair of her. So why is this important? I for one, don't think "Veil" is a bigger fragment than "Shallan", but both "Shallan" and "Veil" represent larger fragments of trueShallan than Radiant does. The size though doesn't matter - absence of even the tiniest fragment would result in potentially important personality changes. What I do think is that it means that we cannot dismiss the feelings of any single alter - no matter what. "Shallan" has feelings for Adolin, "Veil" has feelings for Kaladin, and Radiant is more interested in the relative merits of each man - and weighs them accordingly. TrueShallan therefore must feel all of these but she has built artifical walls between her alters which separates them. On top of that, we have disagreement between the alters about the marriage to Adolin. It is normal to have misgivings about getting married - but trueShallan pushes that fear onto "Veil" so that "Shallan" doesnt have to expereince it. She manages all her internal conflict this way by the end of OB and honestly it isn't healthy because she will never reintergrate if she doesn't get her alts to reconcile. She has made no effort to do that yet. Hence, she has a long way to go (as per WoB) This might suggest that Shallan's romantic arcs arent completed yet - not necessaruly that the current situation will change, but until she reconciles herself to the crush she had on Kaladin and push it aside, she cannot be said to be completely committed to Adolin. And this leads me to Point 3: Shallan is not committed to Adolin. She should be, but she isn't. A significant portion of her sees herself as Adolin's drinking buddy and no more and is seriously crushing on Kaladin. Once again, not fair on Adolin. I don't blame Shallan for this - she is in the grip of a very serious condition that is essentially the fault of her parents. But at the same time, she hasn't actually accepted her position - instead she is pushing the fears she has onto Veil and not actually genuinely deliberating between her choices (or accepting that she could easily choose neither if she really wanted to). I don't want to suggest that her choice of Adolin is wrong per se, but I definitely feel her reasons are wrong and don't do justice to Adolin, Kaladin or indeed Shallan herself. The issue is that unlike a "normal" situation where the internal conflicts are managed through some form of reconcilliation between conflicting ideas, Shallan maintains her conflicts and until she faces those conflicts and actually manages them properly, her issues are going to continue boiling on. Personally I think this is also reflected in plot points that affect Shallan directly - ie the triangle, Helaran's death, and the murder of Sadeas. Shallan chooses nt to address her internal conflicts and this results in her not facing external conflicts either. Right I've got to go (already) but I may be back soon with a chapter by chapter analysis of different points- not necessarily just to do with A/S/K tho if no one minds some slight off topic comments?
  9. 14 points
    Shallan's character shines when she's pushed and reality comes crushing on top of her. She killed her father when the things got really bad, when Lin started hurting her step-mother, threatening to hurt others for her disobedience and when he brought Balat's romance to a head by calling Eylita to the mansion. She was happy to play along as the perfect Vorin daughter until she was pushed too far. She killed Tyn when she was attacked by using her shardblade, which she had seriously considered using only once before, in the alley with Jasnah. She knew Tyn could be dangerous but she extended her charade for her because she was comfortable around her and was fascinated by her swave behavior. One of Shallan's greatest moments is when she recruits the deserters, but she only does it at the last moment when there's no other options, otherwise she was content to sketch and look worryingly over her shoulder. She only acts like her true self, according to that tWoK annotation, when she's refused. I'm talking about this: That's just after Jasnah refused to take her as a ward. She took action and formulated a bold plan to change Jasnah's mind. What I'm trying to say is that Shallan shines, for good or ill, when she's pushed and taken out of her comfort zone. Actually "shines" is the wrong term. I'll go with takes decisive action. But here's the thing. Adolin treats her masks as separate people and panders to them and prefers the one she puts on as being the perfect one according to his expectations.That's not helpful for her mental state and it isn't what she needs in order to be an interesting character to read. She's the kind of person that needs to be spurred and stimulated into being her best self, which is her whole self. When things are at the worst for her, she tries her hardest and becomes closer with her true self. One of Kaladin's best qualities isn't just that he's a good soldier or a good protector but that he also actively pushes others around him to be better. He is a leader. Think how Rock or Teft were in the beginning of tWoK and when or why they started helping Kaladin. He, also, sets an example for others to follow. Sometimes he doesn't even want to set an example but especially at those times people choose to follow him (think the whole armoured bridgemen in Parshendi carapace). He pushes people around him to rise and even lifts them when they're unwilling. He dragged Bridge 4 out of their desperate stupor by providing them camaraderie. Soups, reassuring smiles when he felt they needed them, a sympathetic ear to tell their stories. He listened and got to know them, while dealing with his own issues and guilt. Also I'm going to put this here: That shows me these three things: Shallan is no stranger to putting on masks to please others. She didn't start doing it when she became able to lightweave. It just helped. Also isn't it strange that she puts up the same mask with Adolin as she did for her father. Although they are VERY different people, Shallan wants to be what she thinks they both want her to be. The perfect Vorin daughter or wife. She's comfortable enough with Kaladin to drop the mask and reveal her self. The confession in the chasms that she killed her father was her revealing painful parts of herself to him. She feels comfortable with him as she does with a member of her family. Much more comfortable than she does with Adolin or Jasnah or Dalinar or Navani that are members of her actual family now. And I get it that this could be interpreted that Brandon is setting a siblings relationship between them, and that could fit with the whole "She reminds me of Tien" thing. But frankly that's weak. By the same logic every potential romantic interest should be dismissed if they vaguely remind you of a sibling. Is your crush funny like your sibling? Tough luck buddy, you can't love them romantically. Oh, you're as comfortable around this person as if they were your family or as if you've known them for a long time? Tough break.
  10. 13 points
  11. 13 points
    I can't believe I've never searched for anything on Aether over in the TWG. I finally did... and I found some very interesting stuff. While he was revising the first Mistborn book back in 2004, Brandon was developing a series called the Aethers of Lor (originally Lore), set in the world of Aether. It was going to be a megaseries, with smaller series set on the same planet (the planet of Lor) using different aspects of the magic system, inspired by the overall structure of Dragonriders of Pern. The first book was going to be called Climb the Sky: Aether of Wind Trilogy, Book One. (Although a lot of TWG members didn't seem too keen on that name.) He never got further than planning; he canned that to focus on finishing the Mistborn trilogy, and we all know what happened after that. (If you don't, he decided to work on Dragonsteel, and put that aside when asked to finish the Wheel of Time.) EDIT: It also had the Royal Locks in it. (As did Dark One, apparently. They sure got around.) Aethers of Lor must be the untitled Aether project that Brandon lists in his unpublished works; nobody was thrilled with the name, so he probably considered Lor a placeholder. I also think it's the missing fifth project from the ancient Tor Proposal. (The three write-ups Brandon included in his blog were Elantris, Mistborn, and Stormlight. Dragonsteel was almost certainly one of the other two, and the timeline fits for Aethers of Lor to be the fifth.) So, a couple very important takeaways from this: The Aether world was actively developed even after Mistborn had been written, and Ruin and Preservation had been cannibalized. Brandon doesn't mention if this is cosmere or not, because the concept of the cosmere hadn't been very well developed among his readers at the time (5 points to whoever links Peter saying he doesn't think Way of Kings is on a shardworld), but I think because the concept was driven by an expansive magic system, that it almost certainly was set in the cosmere. Which means, he must have had a Shard or two to go with it. The Aether of Wind doesn't appear onscreen in the manuscript. It looks like it gave flight, which isn't all that inherently interesting. But I wonder if it also had a counterpart, and if the worldbuilding kept the Fell Twins as history? But regardless, the magic of the Aethers definitely extends beyond what we've seen in the Aether of Night to further elements. The world of Aether of Night is referred to as Vaeria in the text. Did Brandon just consider renaming it to Lor? Or was Vaeria merely a region on Lor? (Similar to how he once referred to Opelon as the "world that Elantris takes place in." Since the latest way Brandon referred to the world was as Lor, then I find it hard to believe that Vax is the world of the Aethers. There are superficial similarities between Vaeria and Vax (inasmuch as they begin with the same two letters), but Vax is very different than Lor.
  12. 13 points
    This just...completely reduces the emotional and narrative impact of the Recreance. These spren aren't really truly gone, lost because of the betrayal of their Radiants. They can be brought back, you see! They were never irredeemably beyond reach and there is new hope moving forward for reconciliation between humans and spren. No harm, no foul. Just need to get those blades in the hands of the right people, so they can have intimate conversations, go dancing, take long walks on the beach, and whatever the heck else is needed to forge enough of a contrived plot point, I mean connection, to revive the spren. Oh, and don't worry yourself with thoughts of how its supposed to be super duper extremely hard to do this, because our boy Adolin is here to show us the way. If anyone can do it, he can, yes indeedily doo. Maybe, after he's done showing everyone how to revive their spren blades, he could mosey on over to Westeros. I hear they are in need of a Prince that was Promised, perhaps his plot armor and "can do" attitude will help resolve that book series faster... Yeah, so, I realize I'm being overly snarky and sarcastic. I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, just at the Mayalara Revival (band name anyone?) concept in general. I always thought this was like, an easter egg or bone that Brandon threw out to readers as a wink and a nod to what became a very popular fan theory following WoR. Entirely easy to do, but without any hint of major significance. But if this indeed is going to be made into a major plot point for the series, then I think I'm going to have an issue with it.
  13. 13 points
    I think Kaladin realizing Shallan reminds him of Tien both in the chasm scene and at the end of OB is exactly the same realization in both scenes. In both scenes he thinks Shallan and Tien shine (i.e. they make their own light), are optimistic, and lighten his burdens. Kaladin is more cheerful when he is with them. This is something he likes about both of them. It does not have to be romantic; it is just something he likes about both of them. I also think the realization at the end of OB reads like this is new information. This reminds me of WOT. Spoiler!!!! Sanderson finished the WOT series. He wrote a scene where Perrin learns that saidin has been cleansed. This was a scene that already happened in a previous book (I’m pretty sure it was written by Jordan). Sanderson admitted it was a mistake that happened because it had been some time since he had last read the series. Notice Sanderson was not the only one responsible for this scene being published. Many people read early drafts of the book. The book went through the editing process and the mistake still ended up being published. And obviously Sanderson is not the only author to forget things or to make mistakes. This happens to all authors. I think it is possible that Kaladin comparing Shallan to Tien at the end of OB reads like new information because Sanderson forgot he had already written this. Not a certainty, just a possibility. As far as how Kaladin and Shallan think of each other. I really like it. They both have idealized perceptions of the other but this is after having very negative ideas about each other and after learning more about the other. Their ideas about each other changed a lot. Shallan calls Kaladin hateful during the chasm scene and late in WOR she is drooling over him. I think about Patrick Rothfuss’ line in Wise Man’s Fear: I love this quote. I feel sure Kaladin sees Shallan’s flaws and loves them too. And I love that. It is harder to tell with Shallan since she disguises what she feels so well, but I think she sees Kaladin’s flaws as well and is still infatuated with him. In the chasms Shallan is very aware of how grumpy and brooding Kaladin is. So much so that she calls him hateful and decides he hates everyone. Later Shallan will go on and on about brooding eyes so maybe she loves that about him. I think Kaladin and Shallan see the best in each other. They know neither is perfect but they see the best. Kaladin and Shallan are both down on themselves (more than they need to be. They each focus on their failures and not on the fact that they tried very hard to do something good.) Kaladin and Shallan focus on the good in the other and admire it. They admire how hard the other tries and like that about the other. I really like this and I think they are pretty close to the truth. The more positive way they see the other is more accurate then the negative way they see themselves.
  14. 12 points
    See Also: Code of Conduct | Policies | Forum Welcome & Information Discussion and debate on different aspects of Brandon's books are a key aspect of the 17th Shard Community. Hearing different viewpoints, and debating divergent interpretations of text of WoBs or character interpretations can be a lot of fun, and it is important to make spaces for all viewpoints to be heard. That being said, most of us probably know the feeling when Nergaoul seems to seep into our minds and make us see red. Sometimes we post without carefully considering how our words might impact the person whose opinion or interpretation we are critiquing, or the discussion as a whole. While the passion of a good debate can be part of the fun, it is important to treat all members with respect so that the discussion can continue to be enjoyable for everyone. Here are some strategies that can be kept in mind when venturing into contentious topics. 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(6) People Expressing their Opinions are not Demanding or Asking for Agreement - If you read something that makes you immediately feel defensive, try asking yourself where the defensiveness is coming from. Is the post you are reacting to actually saying you are wrong, or putting forward an opinion as the only valid way of thinking? Sometimes that may be the case, and your defensiveness may be valid, but in most cases an expressed opinion is just that - an opinion. A person can think [X] is fun to talk about, and if you don't agree, there is no need to defend yourself. The fact that they enjoy different things than you does not make the things you enjoy less valid, and it's okay for you to stick to topics on the Shard that you enjoy. We see a lot of people wading into topics they don't seem to enjoy or have a personal stake in solely for the sake of offering a dissenting voice that isn't always needed or wanted. If you feel the need to express your disagreement, as yourself why - are you trying to share a different perspective for the sake of a discussion you personally find interesting, or are you implicitly trying convince someone they are wrong to enjoy what they like? A lot of repetitive disagreements can be avoided if people read carefully and realize that not every differing viewpoint is an invitation for debate. If you aren't actually interested in having an open discussion about a topic, or you see a topic you find distasteful, it's fine to just move on to something you do enjoy - the Shard is a big place, and there should be room for everyone! (7) Stick to the Facts - Using objective evidence is a good way to keep debates moving forward, and to try to lessen the effect of heightened emotions. One of the things that makes theorizing in the Cosmere Fandom fun is that there are objective answers out there for some of our questions. Educating each other on the information that is out there is part of good discourse. When refuting theories with WoBs or passages from the books, try to be considerate in doing so. We have all been in the situation of having a favourite theory be shot down by an explicit passage from the books or WoB. The fact that someone was not aware of a particular fact before posting does not make them a bad Sharder. When posting WoBs or passages from the books, try reading your post over and thinking about how you would feel if you were debunking one of your own theories. When someone else is posting a WoB or book passage that debunks your point of view, try giving them the benefit of the doubt. They are likely trying to be helpful by providing information, and do not intend a personal attack. (8) Take a Break - If you are seeing red, it may be time to close out of the topic for a bit. Take a break from the topic until you feel a little more calm, and then return to reread the posts again to see if you interpret them differently. Another option can be to type up a response without posting it, leave it for a couple minutes, and then come back and edit it for tone. As a reminder, this list is not exhaustive, and all seven points will not be appropriate in every situation. Hopefully they provide some assistance, and, with your help and cooperation, make the Shard a more cordial place.
  15. 11 points
    I am certain it's Shallan. Too young looking to be Navani and Jasnah got the last cover.
  16. 11 points
  17. 11 points
    Hi - I'm sorry to skip back a couple of days, but I wanted to address a couple of older points. (Also this gets rather long...) This makes sense - we are coming at this from two very different perspectives - I wanted a satisfying romance; you wanted one which wasn't too annoying. I am definitely a lover of romance (and read a lot of straight-up romance novels), so if a book bothers to include romance, I want to feel it. (To the magical part, I don't know if you've ever fallen in love, but I find the process IRL to be quite magical, so I want that intense feeling to be captured in books.) While I think Brandon's romances can be a bit clunky and overdone (i.e. too many declarations of love, Vin/Elend drove me crazy with this), I have actually found them all to be rather charming. I believe the two characters do truly love each other and Brandon writes situations where the falling in love process feels decently organic. (I especially enjoyed Wax/Steris.) I can totally see an alternate reality where Kaladin is not in the picture (and thus all the meta stuff isn't there also) and where the ending of OB was tweaked to make it a moment of strength for Shallan (e.g. she realizes she is the person behind her masks instead of Adolin selecting one and that person behind the masks wants Adolin) where I would be very happy with the Shadolin romance. So I totally get how someone could look past those elements and be happy with it, especially someone who just didn't want the romance to be annoying - and since this romance wasn't annoying, having it not be over would only open up more possibilities for annoyance. For me, it wasn't annoying, but it also wasn't satisfying, so I definitely want it not to be over so we can have a more satisfying romance. (And I feel Brandon has delivered that before, so this is a big step down!) On the situations you mention, I already delved into the art bit above. (Where it seems the straightforward stuff actually makes that an item in the Kaladin column, or at least not negative to Kaladin, sorry ) On Pattern and Adolin, I think this could mean something or it could not. Adolin is super likeable, so I'm not surprised someone (spren or no) likes him. (It's more surprisingly that Syl doesn't like Adolin, something which Kaladin gets after her for.) If we're using spren favoritism as a indicator of romantic feelings, though, where does that leave Syl's fangirling of Shallan? Syl is always pushing Shallan on Kaladin, saying he should talk to her, hanging out with her alone to be lightwoven, wanting to stay with Shallan when the group goes on missions, etc. If Pattern's feelings are such a big indicator, then Syl's feelings should be taken into account when evaluating the "honesty" of Kaladin never being into Shallan romantically. If we can't take that at face value, then part of the "this is over" analysis starts to fall apart as it means Kaladin still has feelings for Shallan. On the last point (Pattern only being upset at Shallan's lies when she's Veil), this isn't actually something I've noticed, so I need to look into it. Thanks for pointing it out! As far as the bigger point and looking at foreshadowing... you can definitely read Brandon's books and not look beyond the explicit storyline. (In fact, I think he expects this for a lot of readers.) But you are going to miss out on things because Brandon foreshadows a lot. He's said it's "the thing I love to do the most". (source) Here are two more WoB where he talks about his foreshadowing (one, two) - how he knows that if he designs it well, there will be people who figure it out where others will be totally surprised. So, I find a lot of the fun in analyzing the books is to speculate on what may or may not be foreshadowing. Some of it I'm sure isn't (like I said, the Pattern bond fraying is one of the more speculative one), but then you come to something like Shalladin and the sheer amount of possible foreshadowing elements seems pretty conclusive. Like I said in a post before, there's just so much you have to explain away with arguments like: Brandon was sloppy, I'm sure that was unintentional, that doesn't mean anything, you're reading too much into things.... And that's not even touching on the explicit elements. (Like the art thing - it's explicit that Kaladin uses art for useful things and as a means of study, and that he's interested in Shallan's scholarly drawing. It's explicit that Shallan chose natural history because she liked the study and observation elements of art. Combine these two together, and you've got (another) commonality.) I think we started this by talking about Pattern and Shallan's bond fraying, and how since she didn't note any weird behavior, it wasn't happening? Putting aside the fact we get a mentions of Pattern's drowsiness in both WoR and OB (both when Shallan's contemplating being/pretending to be other people), I don't think we can generalize to say that the absence of something means it doesn't mean anything. (Wow that's convoluted, sorry.) One other example of the narrative not noting something (here in Shallan's perspective) is that she totally hides the ball on Pattern being her shardblade. When we get close to the reveal (which comes through Syl and Kaladin), we get some more explicit hints (in the chasms), but there are clues Shallan has a shardblade back in WoK without it being hinted it's actually her spren (she doesn't even remember about Pattern then!) Brandon also definitely does the bait and switch; Vin's earring is one of my favorites here. I won't go into too much detail (for spoilers sake), but what we're told about it is very different than what it ends up being. The hints get stronger as the books go along, but especially from Vin's own perspective, it takes an agonizingly long time for her to come to the realization. So, just because a character isn't commenting on something being odd, doesn't mean the reader isn't supposed to pick up on it being odd. But in general - I don't think we say any one thing (the presence of or the absence of) definitively can be disregarded. Maybe it means something; maybe it doesn't. But since Brandon is all about foreshadowing, it's always a possibility. To go a bit further, Adolin is the fairy-tale happy ending to what Shallan expected. We see her expectations very early on ("She'd expected to marry one of her father's allies, then spend the rest of her life sequestered in his manor." WoK, Ch. 3, City of Bells), and also through Shallan's flashbacks as she gets older and increasingly mentions her place in like is the be married off for political gain. (Not begrudgingly! Shallan, as we know, had very much accepted this was her place in life.) Now here is Adolin, and a marriage crafted by someone else (Jasnah instead of her father) for political gain (even if you want to argue it ended up being a love match, it didn't start out that way), which is the fantasy every lighteyed girl who expects an arranged marriage would dream about: the handsome prince, who is nice and gorgeous and supremely talented, and totally in love with you to boot. Even for Brandon (who as I said, overdoes these things), this seems a bit on the nose as wish fulfillment for Shallan. (Not to mention super tropey! Something which seems to be forgotten when discussing the hatred of the braided rose trope.) Here's the quote: "Why did Shallan focus so much on Adolin? He was nice, but also bland. You couldn't tease him without feeling bad, but Kaladin, he glared at you in the most satisfying of ways. The part of her that was still Shallan, deep down, was bothered by this line of thinking. So instead, Veil turned her attention to the palace." OB, Ch. 63, Within the Mirror Are there any times when Shallan mentions that Kaladin is [something negative] (after the chasms this is) in her inner monologue? She makes the veiled (ha!) reference to him not encouraging her to be herself to Adolin when Adolin tries to break up with her, and then of course she makes cutting remarks to Kaladin's face, but I don't remember Shallan thinking negative things in her musings. I may totally be forgetting something though... It would be interesting to see if Veil would react to any such thoughts. I would guess Shallan wouldn't be thinking of her feelings for Kaladin, since she is repressing them onto Veil, so she has no reason to think about him much. But... another question, when she makes her cutting comments in OB, do we see any of those from Shallan's PoV? And regarding Shallan/Veil symmetries, Veil's discussion about Kholinar and the chaotic life to it reminds me a lot of how Shallan felt about Kharbranth in her first chapter (Ch. 3). Just another time when we see Veil expressing thoughts which were previously expressed by Shallan. I've never thought of it this way... I feel like Navani's courtship fit her personality style (and I have to say the romance worked better for me after learning more about past Dalinar and Navani as well), but it's a good point that if a man was that forceful to a woman, I might have been disturbed by the interactions. Someone a long ways back (actually this may have been you?) mentioned that Brandon makes his female characters the ones who usually push the relationships, especially sexual interactions. This seems to follow on this point, but it is a double standard. We are in Dalinar's head, so we know he actually desperately wants Navani, so that makes it better as well. But again... had the roles been reversed...? Even if I wasn't disturbed, I would have definitely been annoyed by the false modesty element of a women fending of a man's advances even though she actually really wanted him. (It conveys too many bad messages to men that "no" actually means "try harder"!)
  18. 10 points
    Hi everyone! We have done a massive rules overhaul today. That's for the best since the rules have... not exactly had an extensive rewrite since 2011. 17th Shard has changed a lot since then, and our community is a lot bigger now. So let me go through the highlights of what we did. We've expanded our rule that basically said "be respectful" into a much longer Code of Conduct. It explains our expectations for all members in much more detail. Things in that topic are things we will moderate. It also has a very expansive anti-harassment policy, how to report things, as well as a description on how moderation works, and common actions we will take on moderation. Realistically all of these things are things we have had before, but hopefully a much more detailed description of such things will help us as we get into another influx of new members for Rhythm of War. I want to make special mention that in the Code of Conduct, there is now a completely anonymous way to report things, should you need. We realized with our strong anti-harassment policy we did not have a mechanism for this, so we've created one. Next, we have put a lot of the administrative policies into a Policies topic. These are policies you should follow, describing our rules about double posts, signatures, spoiler policy, but for the most part you wouldn't be moderated if you broke those rules on occasion. (Repeated offenses might lead to moderation, however.) Please give a huge thanks to LadyLameness for her hard work on these documents. These were a team effort and a lot of drafting on these happened, but she's the one who put in a TON of time in making these documents amazing. But wait, there's more! There is also a Best Practices for Posting in Debates thread that Comatose has written for your advice. These topics, with our original forum introduction and how/to (finally updated!), is pinned in the 17S Discussion forum. Discord rules have also been updated, too! Though those topics are closed please feel to comment here on any of these things. Much of this should be expected stuff that we've already done, but expanded in a clearer way. We're here to answer questions though!
  19. 10 points
    In real life, there are just some people which are a little more simple (ETA I don’t mean stupid, I just mean less troubled), have fewer mental health issues, even despite what they’ve been through. Sometimes these are the best people to spend time around, and sometimes I feel that’s what Adolin provides - he’s just so pleasant to spend time around. He does/did have a bit of an anger management problem where Sadeas was concerned, but it seems like it takes A LOT to push him to the brink. I also know people like that, so that’s not unrealistic either. In my opinion we’re not done with the Sadeas murder plot, and there’s something clearly going on with Maya, plus Adolin is the big link to Rira/Iri (IMO) through his mother and his shardplate (and we can be pretty sure that part of Roshar will be involved in future books), so I see a lot of places for his character to go in future books. Some see him as possibly going dark, though I personally don’t get that from his character except when really pushed, so that’s another potential direction for his character to go. Mostly I don’t want him to die! I find his contributions too enjoyable. As one poster said - he just makes you feel good.
  20. 9 points
    @Dreamer recently posted this on an unrelated thread and it got me thinking. Why is it that any shard is considered to have "better" future sight then any other? Especially considering the different ways in which each shard's future sight seems to manifest. It is kind of like measuring intelligence via IQ. Intelligence does not manifest that simply. For example people with eidetic memories generally have a really hard time summarizing and neither skill has any bearing on social capabilities or abstract thinking. Similarly since future sight is probably accomplished differently by different shards they probably all have different strengths and weaknesses. Theorizing time. Let us start with what all shards can do. We know that simply by holding a lot of raw investiture you get massively expanded connection and processing power. As such I think that when it comes to predicting events that can be determined mathematically such as astronomical motions, weather patterns, or breeding cycles all shards are equally good. Basically in this case each shard is an almost infinite super computer with easy access to all the data needed to make a determination. However when we introduce individual humans into a model things get unpredictable pretty quickly. For this shards probably need to use the spiritual realm and when using it they probably make determinations based on their individual intents. In this each shard is different. Ambition. Ambition's intent is to work toward goals. As such she could probably see what people want and how they try and get there as well as the conditions under which her own goals could come to fruition. Problem is that most people don't make decisions based exclusively on what they want. What they fear, hate, and love are often more important factors. As such Ambition might have pretty good long term future sight with terrible mid to short range. That is she might be able to see the circumstances under which her goals are being realized but her "peripheral vision" sucks. To overcome her future sight all you really need to do is bring in some elements that make it look like she is wining and you can trap her pretty easily. Basically just play along and then slam her at the right moment(yeah she was a shard and that would be way more difficult then it sounds but if you are trying to outwit a shard then you are already taking some serious risks). As a side note I am willing to bet this is how Odium splintered her. We know that she damaged him during her fight but I think Odium let her get in a few good hits so that he could get her into position for a KO(this would be very like him). Dominion. We don't know much about him but Dominion's intent seems to have been to control things. As such he can probably see people who are controlling or easily controlled as well as the different effects that events have on each other. To him the future is probably most like the shattering window that Honor mentions which gives him decent mid range future sight. This person or change will likely cause a, b, or c eventfully after the short range randomness cancels out. A good way to outwit him might be to bring in some fairly random element(like another more emotionally inclined shard or just Hoid). Odium may have had an easier time splintering him because of the close proximity of Devotion who introduced more emotionally charged elements into their fighting. Devotion. We also don't know that much about Devotion but her intent seems to have been based on some kind of loyalty or even love. This indicates that her future sight could be much better when situations are fluid as people and events naturally move to where they feel most comfortable. To get around her you might need to introduce some kind of betrayal or treasonous behavior into the mix. Both behaviors tend to beget more of themselves because when you witness treasonous behavior you tend to get less trusting and Devotion might have a hard time anticipating this. By acting so unpredictably and aggressively Odium could have completely blindsided Devotion during his assault on Sel. The Dor. I see no reason Dor could not be used for future sight(it has been indicated that this has already been done). It seems possible that either or both shard's intents could be used. For example Wyrm probably knew about the possibility of Elantris being reestablished and tried to head them off but once events started getting more uncontrolled, emotional and random he lost any ideal of what was going on. If you use both on the other hand I don't think you get much future sight at all but rather a statement about the now kind of like how Sel is becoming sort of self aware. Endowment. Surprisingly little is known about the shard Endowment when you considering how long we have known her. From what we have learned of the vessel they seem to be a no nonsense sort but at the same time. Willingly to look at the good side of things. Her magic also increases the ability of people to see beauty. Returned also seem to return based on the optimistic hope of doing good rather then desire or strength of will. The possibility to create or see beauty now and at a latter date is quite central to her. As such I think Endowment has a good ability to see mid ranged futures. To defeat her simply motivate yourself based on the baser more destructive impulses. Thanks to her lack of opposition she probably has a very good ability to see the future and plan for more contingencies against mortals(same as any other shard). However both the manywar and her letter indicate that she underestimates how selfish and evil people can be. Ruin. Ruin has probably an unparalleled ability to predict the immediate future best scene through how atium works. Ruin's intent is basically to cause entropy in other words randomness in the immediate future. However Ruin is probably the easiest shard to blindside because as long as things are getting more random he can't actually see the overall pattern. This is how Preservation was able to put one over on him so many times. Preservation. Preservation remains the shard with one of the most interesting future sight portfolios that we have seen. He clearly has mastered the long game and deeply understands both the capabilities and limitations of his powers. However Vin was not able to anticipate actions while she held the power and Kelseir mostly used his own abilities as a former thief to predict events so the use of it to predict the immediate future appears to be limited. Blindsiding Preservation appears to be nearly impossible as the way he works his plans make it so that chance encounters or random events don't alter the outcome. For example the wars that consumed the entirety of Mistborn 3 did not matter one wit as long as the key players remained alive but how much of this was the vessel and how much was the shard seems difficult to say. To actually defeat Preservation at the future sight game I think your only option might be to just nuke the whole future. An asymmetric, random, and irrational attack on what is could probably break the stasis. Harmony. I think Harmony's future sight is actually underrated by a lot of people. Harmony's intent seems to be equilibrium. Saze wants things to be like the human body. Constantly changing on the micro scale yet contained within a structure that remains largely unchanged. Equilibrium is actually well understood by physical scientists particularly chemists and physicists. Both are introduced to the concept at the high school or undergraduate level(Simple harmonic motion and RICE tables). From his intent Harmony easily grasps both the "force" any occurrence has and the backlash against it. This means that any time a new variable is introduced Harmony can study it figure out what it will do and what the counteraction against it will be. This gives him a huge advantage on the immediate to mid range future sight predictions perhaps the best in the cosmere. To defeat him in this area you would probably have to introduce a large element he can't easily understand(I think this is what Trell is trying to do). Odium. Well known to be excellent at future sight Odium is the shard with the intent of hatred and the related emotions of fear and disgust. These emotions often do dominate a persons life although they can also fade over time. As such Odium is an impressive mid range predictor with some short range capabilities as well. Interestingly his actual relative strength at future sight might be overblown by the native Rosharans. While he clearly is a gifted strategic thinker Odium's track record has actually been rather poor of late. Collective hatred by one group for another makes them predictable even to humans. Hatred or fear from a single individual is dangerous to rely on although Odium has had more luck then might be expected with this. To defeat him "all" you have to do is find the people he is trying to corrupt and counter him with emotions that he is less experienced with (love, desire for growth, devotion to a set of ideals, loyalty to a cause or person). Cultivation. Cultivation is an interesting case. Her intent deals with how things grow and her future sight abilities seem to stem from there. This may have been how she out future sighted Odium during OB. She knew how Dalinar wanted to grow and change and what he could become if he did. Odium only really understood how Dalinar wanted to avoid the pain of the suffering he had caused. To put one past Cultivation you seem to need to not grow as a person but that makes you easily predictable for obvious reasons. This paradox might be the key to her success. You instead might have to allow some very emotional or random elements that she can't understand to dictate the planing or execution of any attempt to get around her. She also can through her intent see how one desires to grow and the steps that someone will take along that journey giving her perhaps the best all round future sight of any shard. Honor. Honor has personally claimed to be pretty bad at seeing the future. He is the shard of connection and bonds which do not immediately show any real aptitude for future sight prediction. However the visions that he shows Dalinar seem to imply some kind of conditions for victory. These may be connected to what a given individual would have to do to win(essentally he is trying to pull a Preservation). As such I think Honor actually might have some decent long distance future sight capabilities(although probably not at Preservation's level). Autonomy. Very little is known about this shard or her capabilities. She clearly has some future sight(all shards do) but we don't really know how it works. We also don't know much about her intent. I could see it manifesting as sort of the opposite of Honor IE these conditions make this situation impossible(which is why she hates outside shards so much) but we don't really know. Well that is all the shards(I hope). If anyone has any comments, disagreements or constructive criticism please post(even if it is just grammar or wording I would appreciate it as you will be making it easier for the next person who has to read the wall of text).
  21. 9 points
    I don’t know who made this, but it’s gold and they deserve the world
  22. 9 points
    Guys - guys I just realized: "With all the strength of a raging Vyre" Ha!
  23. 9 points
    Not to take away the grossness of the "Kaladin is terrible taste in men" comment (which I agree is classist, inaccurate and unfair), but are we sure Shallan knows Kaladin is into her? I know Adolin says "I see how you both look at each other" which implies Adolin thinks Kaladin likes Shallan (though I'm not 100% on that, since I do think Adolin's breaking up with Shallan is an attempt to get out of the relationship more than anything, plus in the leering scene on Honor's Path all that Adolin notices is Shallan's reaction to Kaladin, not anything which Kaladin reciprocates), but we don't hear or see anything from Shallan's PoV which makes it seem like Shallan knows Kaladin likes her romantically. As someone who used to be a 17 year old girl, I know how insecure one can be about whether or not a boy (especially one you like) is actually into you... Kaladin, as you say, isn't making any overt moves. He very mildly flirts with her, but we know he's into Shallan based on his PoV thoughts (which she doesn't know), not his actions. Kind of along those lines, but I've wondered if an element is Shallan's "rejection" of Kaladin is partially also due to insecurity; Adolin feeds her all these cheesy lines and is her betrothed, whereas the other option (since neither appears to not be an option to her ) is someone who is kind of aloof towards her. This aside, I agree Shallan (and maybe Adolin, though it's so hard to tell what he's thinking given the massive disparity between how Shallan sees him and what we see from Adolin's PoV) is definitely making a statement by publicly making out with Adolin in front of Kaladin. There's another time in Kholinar when Kaladin notices she kisses Adolin in a way more intimate than previously (this is when Adolin and Kaladin go to Shallan's room, so Shallan definitely know Kaladin is watching), which I always thought was an interesting observation given we know from Shallan's PoV that she's constantly struggling with her feelings for Kaladin throughout the Kholinar arc.
  24. 9 points
    What bothers me about Adolin's behavior towards Shallan is that not only he fails to notice that she is deeply troubled on numerous important occasions but he turns the interactions into something about himself instead of her. (as the "braided rose" technique goes we have three of these) Teaching her to sword fight: In the WoR ending, we are noticing that Adolin's self esteem wavers since the world has 'turned around' on him. Instead of him being the prince of Alethkar, Knight Radiants now re-emerge and take the highest source of power (and the spot light). Also, turns out, his betrothed is one of them so he can't possibly break the betrothal now. Feeling inadequate for the position he decides he will take the higher ground by teaching her how to sword fight, because he assumes 'ah, she is a woman how well can she possibly fight'. (little does he know that Shallan has survived death on numerous occasions and being the underdog actually gives her even more credit on the matter) Veil's meltdown: In The Girl Who Stood Up chapter, Shallan is found after how many hours of being absent (overnight?) and he doesn't even notice how distressed she is on the inside but on the contrary, comments on her appearance, the color clash on her clothes. Much later on, in Shadesmar, when she finally gets the chance to talk to him about her inner turmoil with multiple personalities, he counters her argument with 'I killed Sadeas'. Again, he manages to turn things about him, much so that she completely fails to explain what she was trying to say in the first place. We don't even get a contributing word from him apart from 'Ash's eyes, Shallan' to acknowledge that he indeed understands her issue. Does he even believe the personalities exist at this point? It certainly felt a bit like he was avoiding to comment, deflecting with a hug and a compliment instead. Thaylen Field battle aftermath: Finally, he actually notices with his own eyes that the personalities are indeed real and are keeping her from functioning as a whole. He finally witnesses that she is fragmenting, distressed and very much troubled indeed. What is his inner thought on the matter? We don't know. Because at this point, we are witnessing her point of view and we are led through her interpretation of the exchange. She basically takes it as 'he knows me' and anchors herself on a squeeze of a hand, but what does he actually do? Did he do this consciously? Did he take up the responsibility of that anchor? No, all he ever did was say 'Something's wrong' and give her a hug. And actually, on their next conversation together he wants to break up. To me, this was his answer: 'wow she is completely nuts, time to bolt'. How does he say it? Again, he manages to bring our his own self-esteem issues, maybe jealousy of Kaladin earning her attention, losing his power over her and tells her 'I'm going to let him have you'.
  25. 8 points
    https://repl.it/@ChickenLiberty/KRQuiz This is just my own attempt at making a quiz like this. Since it's just a python program, I can easily edit it if new books change our understanding of the Orders. If you don't think you're result is accurate, tell me, and I'll alter the quiz if it appears certain Orders are consistently inaccurate. The "certainty" thing is somewhat arbitrary; I just fit the results to some curve that represents the other data to an extent. My descriptions of the orders aren't very good, but oh well.
  26. 8 points
    The Knight Radiants volunteer at an animal shelter: The Windrunner plays with all the dogs, even the ones that growl or pee on him, so long as they have had their shots. The Skybreaker hovers over the shoulders of potential adopters, making sure they fill out everything on their forms correctly. The Dustbringer reaches through the bars to pet a pretty calico and gets badly scratched. She pulls back her hand, swears for a bit, then gets a glint in her eye and says, "Playing hard to get, are you?" She spends the next several hours trying to befriend the cranky kitty, and leaves the shelter bloodied but triumphant. The Edgedancer remembers an elderly black tom that has been forgotten, and starts a Facebook campaign to find him his forever home. The Truthwatcher uses his visions to match which pets would do best with which people. The Lightweaver picks up the laser pointer, looks at it, grins, puts it down, and says, "I can do better." An hour later, as they're trying to guide a confused kitten out of the airducts, she shrugs apologetically and says, "Okay, maybe I overdid it a little." The Elsecaller sighs and soulcasts a hole big enough to reach in and grab the kitten. The Stoneward is rammed in the crotch at about forty miles an hour by an overly-friendly Great Dane, but he still stands where others would have fallen. The Bondsmith reunites a lost labradoodle with its grateful owners. The Willshaper is seen leaving the premises with suspicious kitten-sized bulges in her pockets.
  27. 8 points
    Can I join too? I'm a newcomer to these parts and what have you. Ignore my name and picture, for some reason those look like they're from another Sharder but my real name is Sudiov and here's my actual dp: Totally different from that other guy. You should let me in to all your secrets and give me access to your bakeries while unsupervised.
  28. 8 points
    I just wanted to highlight what I think would be the opposite of these. Instead of dueling, he's warring. Instead of lounging, he's leading. Instead of courting the occasional pretty girl he's getting married. Not sure how happy Adolin is about any of this, but at least there's evidence to foreshadow his eventual abdication.
  29. 7 points
    Hi all, this is my first ever forum post, glad to meet you all! Intro As the title suggests I believe that Willshapers are the ones that create shardplate for the Radiants, or at least I believe my theory is pretty solid. I've been thinking alot about the Willshapers lately and Kalak and from the brief descriptions we have, they seem to appear as very finicky tinkerers. So I basically picture Kalak as the Iron Man of the Heralds who designed the shardplates(maybe some 'Honorplate'). There has also been alot of speculation that shardplate is comprised of subspren and comments from Brandon Sanderson's Q & As and subspren appearing around certain characters(Dalinar, Kaladin & Jasnah) point to this. I also believe that Bondsmiths might play a part in this process, I get more into that later on. How I think it works Since the subspren aren't able to make nahel bonds, therefore only able to manifest in the physical realm for a brief period of time. I think these spren are so drawn to the Radiants and their increasing connection to their sapient cousins, but can't bound because of the laws in place. So Kalak, being the inquisitive airhead decides that if they have shardweapons why not make shardarmor from other spren since Radiants can only have one bond per sapient spren. I imagine that in order to make this happen, the Willshaper will blend their surges together like how Dalinar blended Cohesion and Adhesion to repair the ruins in Thaylen City and somehow bring the spren from Shadesmar into the Physical Realm and use Cohesion to reshape them into shardplate(perhaps involving some sort of Godmetal, not too sure I'm not all that knowledgeable on that topic). Now where does the Bondsmith come in? Well that's simple, they use Spiritual Adhesion to identity key the Plate to the Radiant. I also think maybe another way to look at it is that perhaps a Bondmsith would open a perpendicularity that might affect the process in a way or something? Here is further evidence to back my theory(some speculation): Dalinar was capable of using 'Spiritual Adhesion' to communicate with others of different languages. It would lend credence to their Order's name, perhaps how they even got it like Windrunners and Skybreakers are best known for their flight abilities but can do so much more. The radiants takes the subspren(Will) and shape it into the best form for the knight(Shaper) There's been a convenient lack of information on the Order and their Herald and I'm sure we all know our favourite author has a penchant for leaving omitting delicious information for the sake of storytelling. We know Venli is probably on her way to become one and how she interacts with Dalinar's Radiants could be a big thing in the fourth Stormlight book. In Taln's ramblings about the latest Desolation, he talks about training and leading armies, Jezrien teaching men leadership and Kalak teaching them to smith Bronze. Kalak was probably the Herald of Craftsmanship and this translated to his Order as well. Anyways let me know what you guys think, I'm not that knowledgeable on the magic system in Stormlight, so technical and complex but I still love it. Let me know what I got wrong, or missed out. Cheers!!!
  30. 7 points
    It's been revealed! Gosh dang it, now I just want to see the Whelan cover even more. Also, does anybody know who the woman is with the sword? She looks like she has grey hair, so maybe it's Navani. No idea why she'd be carrying a sword though.
  31. 7 points
    They'd probably equally confuse each other, but bluff their way through it, leaving both of them with the feeling that the other had gotten the better of them.
  32. 7 points
    Brandon unveiled a simpler Stormlight symbol for easier marketing that he described as a space-age symbol. The new symbol will still be used, but this one will be used if a simpler one is needed. https://www.brandonsanderson.com/alternate-stormlight-symbol-reveal/
  33. 7 points
    I truly get the desire for more Stormlight stuff and the need to find something solid in this ever-changing storm of a time, and while I don't know your personal situation, I'm not sure having Sanderson release anything early other than the chapters snippets he's already released is a good thing at this moment. The book still has a way to go before it's finished, and this isn't a situation where the author has been quiet, evasive, or misleading about their book's progress. We have a release date (November 17), we know what the novella released will be but it needs to be written first, and the actual book comes first before that. Sanderson gives us updates on Reddit (his latest one from last month) and even said that he's "neck-deep in revisions" as recent as last night/this morning. "A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad for ever." Shigeru Miyamoto. This can also be true for books, or any project that has time limits. You say we need to know how to care like Kaladin does, but the answer is in the stories he's already told, not just the new book. We find a way to move forward, move to our next steps because we saw Dalinar do that. We can't wait for our next steps to be in-line with Dalinar's unfortunately, but maybe the path he's walked so far is enough for now. (Also, if you're looking for something on Netflix, I recommend The Dragon Prince if you haven't watched it already).
  34. 7 points
    Gavilar was on the Bondsmith path, and he was actively working to bring about a desolation. Sure, it was for what he thought were good reasons, but one of those reasons was essentially a Vorin theocracy. I'd say actively causing a disaster that kills 90% of the population disqualifies you from being a 'good leader'.
  35. 7 points
  36. 6 points
    Book Four Ending Prediction: Shallan and Stick resolve their differences and work together. Stick ends up killing Odium in this epic standoff: ”Give me your pain.” “I am a stick.” “Give me your pain!” “I am a stick.” “GIVE ME YOUR PAIN!” “I am a stick.” Then Odium implodes out of frustration. The end. But in terms of the cover, I definitely think it’s Shallan. It’s not how I imagine her, but I don’t think it suits any of the other major female characters.
  37. 6 points
    Moash tried to kill Elhokar for personal revenge. He was not out for Sadeas, whose every action was horrific, or Szeth, who was whacking kings all over Roshar. He wanted the one guy who had indirectly wronged him by being incompetent. Graves was there to make the world better, but I dont buy that Moash was.
  38. 6 points
    There is more in here that's weird. Truthwatchers are the order whose symbol looks like grass. Renarin sees. His Order has the color green, associated with Emeralds, soulcasting essence Pulp and Body focus hair. Interesting then, that Cultivationspren (the spren that make Edgedancers) are green and have hair made of vines. In the Physical, Cultivationspren look like growing vines. SImilarly, Edgedancers are White (Diamonds), have the Soulcasting Essence Crystal and Body Focus of eyes. Yet, it's the Truthwatchers, whose spren manifests as a ray of light shining through glass and falling on a surface. Now, Edgedancerspren, in the physical, do have crystal in the vines of their spren, and for Truthwatcherspren, when they stop, the light slowly emates from them and amkes the shape of growing plants and leaves. Still, interesting, no?
  39. 6 points
    procrastinators of the world unite... Tomorrow
  40. 6 points
    This thread has been on the staff's radar, and there seems to be some continuing issues, so I wanted to step in for a moment. To be clear, while I do have personal feelings and opinions on this subject, I am currently using my staff/mod voice, so listen up :). First, I would like to thank people here for trying to remain civil and exercising humility, even when things were heated, stressful, or hurtful. There are some issues in what has been posted, but there is a lot to be proud of as well. Now for the moderation part. I would like to direct a shift in this conversation going forward. The OP of this topic was expressing a desire for more queer characters in Brandon's books (and in SF/Fantasy generally), specifically a "gay male protagonist". While there has been some good discussion about why this is important, there has also been a lot of 'counterarguments' stating why Brandon is doing his best and why Brandon should not be obligated to include more queer characters. While these are valid opinions, and it makes sense why they came up, they are not, strictly speaking, on topic. This thread was not titled or framed as a discussion of whether Brandon should include more queer representation, it was started as an expression of desire for that occur (at least that's how I interpreted it, I could be wrong). With that context in mind, please keep the following two points in mind moving forward: (1) Read the thread before posting. A lot of people have been making the same points over and over, or even repeating their own posts. I get that it is easy not to feel heard, but please let the conversation evolve, instead of continually bringing it back to the same point. (2) Keep the purpose of the thread in mind. I've noticed a lot of threads along these lines continually get drawn to the question of 'should' Brandon include more rep, or 'should' he be obligated to include more rep, when that is not always what is the subject of a thread. The same three WoBs come up again and again. People should be able to discuss their wants and desires without needing to debate their reason for having those desires. There are tons of debate threads on the shard, so try to remember to read the room, and if you don't see an applicable debate thread, consider making one yourself, and allow people who want space just to vent and express wishes to do that. So, going forward, please continue discussion of what you'd like to see from a queer protagonist, or why you would like to see a queer protagonist here. If you would like to debate, please move on.
  41. 6 points
    There is no evidence for a correlation between how invested Nightblood is and how powerful he is. Nightblood seems to be exactly as strong as he was in Warbreaker. People like to overinflate Nightblood's power and make him out to be some Universe ending super diety. The truth is that he couldn't kill two Radiants while they were in Honor's perpendicularity without getting drunk. The idea that he is somehow going to jump to 1000x power and eat a perpendicularity is silly IMO. If you just leave him in one unsheathed for a few year maybe it will collapse, but unless Brandon writes something to the contrary into the stories, he isn't strong enough to do it in a reasonable amount of time.
  42. 6 points
    I'm hoping that since Szeth now has a Shardblade from his oaths, that he passes Nightblood to Dalinar. The Stormfather refuses to be a blade, so Dalinar will need something to fight with. Since taking his oaths Dalinar has left all of the physical combat to other Radiants, and taken the role of leader, both Spiritual and martial as his primary duty. At some point he will need to fight a physical combatant IMO and when this happens he will need a weapon. I also think that Dalinar might be the only person that could "safely" use Nightblood given that one of his powers lets him summon a perpendicularity. Nightblood is part of Edgli's long game, so I can't help but wonder if she foresaw Dalinar using it to destroy Rayse.
  43. 6 points
    Because a pandemic of some sort has left me unoccupied recently, I'm writing up this highly speculative theory about the creation of medallions. Long text is long, so there is a point you can skip to if you don't care about the justification behind some of the spectulation. This topic has seen a lot of research, the most reasonable being, in my opinion, Calderis' theory: One thing that makes me doubt this is the method employed by the Southerners is that Allik speaks about multiple power medallions as if they are an accumulative work: There is much we don't know about the topic, and it seems Brandon won't tell us much until he finally unveils the answer in TLM, so we have to make due with what he have. What I propose is one way a medallion could be made, which is most likely not the way they currently make them. I will work on the assumption that this WoB is correct: Which coincidentally allows me to speak about something that doesn't feel right about Calderis' theory: it is straightforward. Yet there have been multiple ocassions where Brandon has been asked about the creation of medallions, and his reply is, like in this instance, that he would have to check his notes, or ask Peter, and the answer apparently needs a flowchart: That being said, this is what I got. I address the fact that the nicrosil portion is never tapped, and the fact that no hemalurgy should be required if Brandon was not mistaken in the first WoB. As a summary, the idea relies on priming cubes to accumulate multiple powers into a single nicrosil storage, and then to use priming machinery like the one on BoM's airship to create the auto-tapping nicrosil ring. There are multiple points I can't explain, but I think there is some merit to this thought process, and perhaps someone else will be able to build something stronger from this theory. Let's begin with small assumptions, namely about the way priming cubes behave under the effects of Allomancy and Feruchemy. We have seen priming cubes used with A-Steel, A-Cadmium and A-Chromium. In all cases the observed effect is that the output of the allomancer's burn is reproduced by the cube, with some harmonium burned away, as if the cube was metal burning inside the allomancer. From Irich's PoV we know there is a method of operation that allows some mechanism to be primed so that it makes something else ligher, and the priming involves a ferring: I believe it would be consistent to expect that storing into an iron metalmind while holding the primer cube would cause it to work as if it was iron being stored into by a feruchemist. This would have the effect of funneling weight from nearby people, though apparently it can be worked to funnel weight from its environment as well (airship becoming lighter). Of course we don't really know how the ship gets lighter, and it would be a valid criticism of this text. It would be somewhat reasonable that the cube could funnel feruchemical attributes from people, as it could be doing so by preventing investiture from flowing from the Spiritual Realm to the Physical making the attribute stop being manifested (i.e. weight being removed), the excess being stored in the ettmetal as any other feruchemical store or getting shunted back to the SR. But what would it mean to prime the cube by tapping an attribute? In particular, the important question is what effect should that have on inanimate objects. When the cube replicates allomancy, it gets burned, presumably to fuel the allomancy. When it draws attributes, it is just behaving as a metalmind, storing a charge, (though I don't think the charge would actually be stored, it just gets siphoned into oblivion, like some people think happens when you store into aluminum). If it were primed by tapping a charge, the cube would have to provide the excess investiture like it does with allomancy. This is problematic, as either you would need to store before being able to tap, or the investiture that makes up the ettmetal would have to fuel the effect. I don't think it makes sense for the ettmetal to fuel the feruchemy by decreasing its investiture level (i.e. desaturating itself) or something like that. If the ettmetal fuels the feruchemical output, I think it would have to work like it does with allomancy, burning itself to provide the effect, as if it was a metalmind being compounded. These are the assumptions I am working on, and I concede they are wildly speculative, but under these premises this is how I envision the origin of the Bands of Mourning: IF LAZY, SKIP HERE! We will require a ferring and misting of each type along with some strategic twinborns, some ettmetal, and no spiky things. Arbitrary Unkeyed Metalminds. The first step is to be able to produce an unkeyed metalmind. An aluminum ferring stores Identity while holding a primer cube. The cube responds by drawing Identity from anyone close by. Any feruchemical charge stored while the cube is working will be clear of Identity, free to be used by any ferring of that metal. Adding Powers to Nicrosil. The second step is to create an unkeyed nicrosil metalmind, with a storage of F-Nicrosil. This can be done by a nicrosil ferring storing their ability under the influence of the Identity-clearing grenade. The resulting metalmind allows any twinborn with access to A-Nicrosil to store their feruchemical ability into a nicrosil metalmind, which can easily be cleared of Identity with the same procedure. The twinborn burns the nicrosil metalmind, compounding the charge that gives them access to F-Nicrosil, allowing them to store their feruchemical power into a nicrosil metalmind. Notice that at this point we can create a sealed version of the Bands of Mourning that can only be used by nicrosil metalborn: To add an Allomantic power, we need a twinborn with that power and F-Nicrosil. The individual stores their allomantic ability while being identity-cleared, resulting in a net power addition to the master nicrosil metalmind. To add a Feruchemical power, we need a twinborn with that power and A-Nicrosil. The individual burns an unkeyed nicrosil metalmind that has been filled with the ability to use F-Nicrosil. During the burn, the charge gets compounded and the twinborn becomes a nicrosil ferring for the duration of the burn, allowing them to store their feruchemical ability into the master nicrosil metalmind. The limit to the amount of powers that can be added is the availability of suitable twinborn and ettmetal. If this was no issue, once all allomantic and feruchemical powers had been stored, the master nicrosil metalmind could be burned by a A-Nicrosil misting while priming the cube producing a Fullborn grenade, though it's effects would by necessity be temporary: A powerless person could perhaps store all powers while under the effects of the grenade, but once its effects decayed they would no longer have access to F-nicrosil. So this method of granting powers is short-lived, and can only be initiated by a nicrosil ferring, and does not qualify as a mechanical mean of accessing Invested Arts like medallions or honorblades do. The next section provides even more outrageous speculation in order to provide a solution to this problem From the excerp I quoted from BoM, it would seem an airship can be primed into being made lighter. While there is a perhaps deceivingly obvious implication, there are a couple extra details that we can infer from this fact. Objects, not only people, can store feruchemical atributes, or at the very least they can see their flow of investiture altered in such a way that the physical manifestation of those attributes are dimishised. The duration of the decrease in the attribute needn't be the same as the duration of the priming. Otherwise the ship would not be viable, because you would need to prime its weight for as long as the expected duration of the flight, which at any reasonable pace would take hours if not days. Ultimately, this weight-changing airship implies that a being without innate feruchemical powers can be forced to store an attribute. This strikes suspiciously close to giving a person a power they don't have! Sadly I can't see any additional info about the weight changing mechanism to explain it's inner workings. From Irich's chapter the ship appears to have a lattice of some lightweight metal couple with some other set of metal wires, plus a golden plate in the shape of a ship. I do believe these are somehow trying to reinforce the cognitive aspect of the ship, somehow making it more aware. In fact I think the pattern of metals going all over the ship is very similar to the lines of strata on the walls of Urithiru, with the gemstone pilar being replaced by a golden plate. In any case, I don't have any additional ideas on this. Therefore, I will assume that the weight changing machinery can be primed by storing an attribute while holding a priming cube, with some unknown extra steps. So if storing weight causes the cube to expand the effect, forcing its surroundings to store weight, what would tapping imply for other feruchemical uses? This is where the amount of unknowns is too big to form a coherent argument with supporting evidence, and so at this point everything is unsupported and likely invalid. I assume that priming the airship works because something in the weight changing machinery defines the airship as the target, and because the ship is in contact with a decent amount of iron it can store its weight into the iron. Perhaps that same machinery could be made to target a ring of nicrosil filled with an unkeyed charge of F-Nicrosil. If you were to store your ability to use your allomantic/feruchemical power while priming the cube -which is set to target the ring and only the ring- the piece of nicrosil would try to store its investiture into its environment. Now, I accept that this is wishful thinking, but maybe this ring would not be able to store anything because there is no amount of nicrosil metal nearby. The physical/spiritual makeup of the nicrosil is what allows it to be a recipient of that specific kind of charge: of Innate Investiture, the ability to use allomancy/feruchemy. Just like only iron has a structure such that it can hold a charge of weight. But nicrosil is not the only suitable recipient of Innate Investiture that grants access to Metallic Arts: people can hold a lot of the stuff. So, a nicrosil ring is looking for a suitable recipient, its charge having no way out but is under pressure to escape because it has been primed to do so by the effect of the ettmetal. A person touches this nicrosil ring, the charge finds an outlet it can flow into, and the person receives the ability to use allomancy/feruchemy as it was originally stored into the ring. This is the reason we never see anyone tap the nicrosil portion of the medallions: the nicrosil is not working as a metalmind, it is working as an entity with access to f-nicrosil, and the wearer is the metalmind being stored into. Of course this doesn't fully work, as it doesn't explain why there is an apparent limit of three powers to a medallion. I cannot explain the fact that the nicrosil ring never runs out, or that the charge is 'given back' to the medallion once the user stops touching it. I don't believe this is how the Southerners are actually making the medallions, as I believe they do use hemalurgy, which could explain both the three power limit (see Calderis' theory) and the nicrosil charge being 'discrete' like memories in a coppermind. Perhaps replacing the steps that involve storing F-Nicrosil with stealing (Excising ) f-nicrosil would give rise to the medallions we know and love. I do want to add some thoughts about the three power limit: could it be that this is a Cosmere-wide limit to the number of abilities granted by the same mechanical method? Medallions are limited to three powers, as Allik tells us: It doesn't mean there is a hard limit on the number of powers, as it could simply be that the tech level is not quite there but could be reached. If we do operate on the assumption that it is a hard limit, where else have we seen anecdotal recalling of three powers being granted, at most? There is this from Sixth of the Dusk: Same situation, we have an observer telling us about a grand maximum of three powers, but no explicit mention that more is impossible. Finally, there is this from Kaza's Interlude in Oathbringer: Which implies Fabrial Soulcasters have three modes of operation, whatever they might be. The most obvious inference is that each 'mode' is one essence, corresponding to each of the three gemstones each Soulcaster can hold. I believe these quotes add credence towars a Cosmere hard limit of three powers given by the same mechanical means. Of course more than three can be achieved through different systems (three powers from medallions and three from hemalurgy, as we know it can be done as we see Suit use a medallion while having three spikes) or through hacks (granting a single power, that of F-Nicrosil, that allows access to a unkeyed storage of any arbitrary set of powers). But this system-specific limit is reasonable even without an in-world reason, as it would prevent scenarios in Era 4 where everyone can be a Fullborn Radiant of ten surges. Though I acknowledge a major flaw: there are WoBs that mention you could bond 5 Honorblades, but this should not be feasible if this limit exists.
  44. 6 points
    To be honest...I'm still sorting through my thoughts on this. I think this thread is a help in that endeavor. I seem to be one of a very few that understands the gravity of what she's doing. The whole "He knows who I am" part felt REALLY forced to me, but admittedly at the time I was going on the third day of listening to a 55 hour book and was too consumed with everything else going on in the book that I wasn't considering the possibility that Brandon was setting something up with Shallan's arc here... I am going to reread Oathbringer soon, and I will have a more concise and thought out view on all of this then. Now that I know what's going on, I'll be able to pay more attention to some of these things...but to be honest the thing I was really analyzing in my first read was Dalinar's arc, haha. Honestly, I hope this doesn't happen either. I don't think Brandon would go the route you propose, e.g. "who is Mom today". I do think that were it to happen, though, we might have something like Shallan's emotions going haywire, revealing things she wanted to keep secret, etc. From that standpoint I think it would be a powerful conflict generation. I doubt he'll take that route, though, because I think there are better avenues for him to resolve Shallan's mental disasters. I do think, however, that Shallan and Adolin are in for a rough ride. Her brothers are finally in Urithiru, and they know the real Shallan. She's still got everything going on with the Ghostbloods. And I think Adolin dying might now be on the table. I never really thought he would kill off Adolin, but he took Elhokar out in a pretty drastic way, and I found it pretty blindsiding when it occurred. As has been noted, the plot now has much more to gain through the ramification of Adolin's death, than through keeping him alive. But after I reread Oathbringer I am going to get around to that Shallan analysis post. So keep me informed on topics you want addressed.
  45. 5 points
  46. 5 points
  47. 5 points
    The thing is, creating and ruling a theocracy are perfectly valid interpretations of 'guiding' and 'pious', as far as I can tell. We also don't know how much of Dalinar's oaths were personalised for him. At least three other orders have oaths that are personalised for each Radiant around a theme. Gavilar certainly united people, even if it was by bloodshed. If the third ideal's 'if I fall I will rise again a better man' was a little add-on in the same way that Teft's requires him to protect those he hates, especially himself, then perhaps simply taking responsibility for reprehensible actions would be enough for Gavilar to advance. Much like how Thanos kills half the universe to protect the other half, and he takes responsibility for the death toll without shying away from the fact that it needed to be done (or so he thought). I'm just really concerned about Gavilar being a potential Bondsmith when he is trying to start such a devastating war, when as far as I recall Dalinar's maturing from his previously monstrous characterisation is what helped him onto the path.
  48. 5 points
    I Googled "how to start a wildfire".I got 48,500 matches.
  49. 5 points
    Here are some more: When life gives you melons, your dyslexic. It's hard to explain puns to kleptomaniacs because they always take things literaly.
  50. 5 points
    So Brandon posted this on Facebook 40 minutes ago. I obviously zoomed in. Rhythm of War? Chapter title? Or book title? Sorry if this isn’t new info.
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