Leaderboard

I have to say, there aren't many places on the internet where people could discuss what counts as racism for 3+ pages and keep it this civil. It's a testament to this community.

His hatred is something he's working on to change; his anger is righteous and correct. EDIT: And to clarify, the three do not get the same reaction from the radon, except perhaps Shallan. There aren't threads and threads being made about the Kholins' classism, exclaiming how inappropriate they're being. The large portion of fan attention on this issue is focused on Kaladin.

Oh the contrary, Kaladin's opinion is similar to marginalized groups irl, and him being on the marginalized side of his society, Kaladin is not racist or classist. He has no structural power to enforce against the people higher than him. If a lighteyes doesn't like Kaladin, they can use the caste system against Kaladin to punish him, especially more than they would be able to against a fellow lighteyes. When Kaladin doesn't like a lighteyes, they punish him. He loses in both scenarios. Acting as though Kaladin hurting a lighteyed person's feelings is in any way equivalent to a lighteyes also hurting his feelings, disregarding his life, enslaving him, pressing a red hot brand to his face, being on the bridge crews... Kaladin wasn't born or raised with this opinion of lighteyes, either, it wasn't a product of society. Kaladin is prejudiced and getting over it, but it was multiple repeated circumstances of extending his trust and having it thrown in his face that got him there. It stems from actual mistreatment, that he had no recourse against, and mistreatment that was legal and considered the right of the lighteyes who did it. I consider systemic racism the most accurate definition, and some people say racism when they mean prejudice. The worst thing he can do, if following the rules of the caste system, is hurt someone's feelings, and he could be punished for even that much. Kaladin is not racist. He experiences resentment and anger at a group of people he's repeatedly had abuse and hurt him, personally, people he thought he could trust and believe in. His feelings are entirely legitimate and he's suspicious of the lighteyes he meets, but it hasn't stopped him from realizing that people like the Kholins are still worthwhile, and given his circumstances and life story, the fact that he takes a while to trust them is completely reasonable.

As a person of color living in the US, I tend to bow out on conversations like these because it's a very emotionally charged subject. That being said, I personally believe that any group can be racist towards any other group. Racism can be found to a greater or lesser degree among nearly all people. However if one belongs to the dominant group then they are both in the position to deny the groups they find lesser opportunities to be better and less effected by the opinions of those not in power. I can have a negative opinion about Warren Buffett because of his race; it might hurt his feelings. If he happened to hate black people he has the potential to set my prospects and my family's prospects back for generations.

Aha! Finally the 90 days are up and I can go back to my normal username

Here's the problem. If you justify anger against a certain race, for any reason, then you just keep adding to the problem. Let's say the dark eyes manage to pull off a massive coup. They create a worldwide coaltition and completely overthrow the light eyes. Let's also imagine they took your approach and hated the light eyes and justified it by how they had been treated. Now they are in power, do you think that animosity will fade? It won't if anything it'll just get stronger and stronger. THey will likely treat the light eyes worse then even they were treated in retribution. Within like three generations Roshar would be in the same social situation, just with dark eyes on top and light eyes underneath. This would cary on until light eyes threw a coup and so on and so forth forever. The only way out of this loop is to disavow racism at every level. Even those who have been oppressed and treated unfairly need to realize that unless they can set that aside for a greater future, the world will be stuck in this spiral. As Kaladin said to Moash, "We need to be better then them", or something similar. Without some group putting aside their hatred and anger and finally living up to the ideal of treating everyone equally, nothing will change but the color of eyes of those in charge. THis is the problem with justifying racism simply because you've been treated badly. P.S. There is a point in one of the books where bridge 4 actuallty has a discussion about this. I can't remember if it's in WoR or tWoK, and I only have audio so if someone else knows where that is and could quote it that would be nice.

This is false on so many levels. Simply because someone isn't part of the "dominant class" doesn't mean that they are relieved of all responsibility for there racist actions towards others. Here's the actual definition of racist. Adjective: showing or feeling discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or believing that a particular race is superior to another. Now, on Roshar this can be applied both to light and dark eyed people. For one, you see everyone see themselves as superior to the parshmen. There are also plenty of examples of light-eyes looking down on the dark-eyes. What we don't often acknowledge is the racism from the dark-eyes towards the light eyes. We see this most in Moash, but other Bridge 4 members show it too. We see Kaladin think things about how spoiled Shallan is simply because she's a light-eyes. At one point we even see Moash use the excuse that the King is a light-eyes so it's not as bad to kill him. All of these things, from light eyes and dark eyes, are racist. Now we can have an argument over if some of it is justified, but just saying you can't be racist towards the dominant class is ridiculous.

Another quote, that was brought up earlier by Pathfinder, was this: Kaladin doesn't mistrust the lighteyes specifically because they are lighteyes, but instead because they are in power. This is before Kaladin meets any good examples, and he has figured out that power has a tendency of corrupting everyone.

Kaladin distrusts Lighteyes in general, because they have all treated him badly, but he does not discriminate against lighteyes who show themselves to be good people, as shown by the fact that he likes the wall guard, trusts the Kholins, and allows Lighteyes into bridge four. He distrusts them because in general, the lighteyes in power are corrupt. But when he is given reason to trust them, he does so.

Nope, it doesn't. And as a personal request, let's not quote MLK so far from his cultural context; there are plenty of his quotes we can quote that are less nice and broad. I find it telling that the anger of the darkeyes gets more of a "this is wrong!" reaction than Dalinar and Adolin and Shallan's thoughts and actions, as people in these privileged positions who thoughtlessly are classist in the books. But they have the privilege of being calm and reasonable about this subject, whereas Kaladin's anger is seen as hysterical and unreasonable. I'll use an analogy to explain my reasoning. I and my boss are angry at each other. I tell him, "you're fired!" Nothing happens. He tells me, "you're fired!" and I am escorted from the building. Were our actions equal? Did we do each other the same harm? No. Absolutely not. I was not capable of firing my boss; the company would laugh if I'd tried. On the other hand, it was very easy for him to fire me. But our words were the same! We were both in the wrong! And yet, if someone tried to claim that what I did was as bad as what he did to me, even just bad at all, that claim would be pretty insulting. Calling what I did "firing him" doesn't align with the reality.

By equating Kaladin's words to the harm he's been paid out, it diminishes the impact of what is so bad about racism. His suspicion is completely earned; based on what he'd been through, he was given multiple reasons to find lighteyes untrustworthy. The impact to the lighteyes Kaladin dislikes is negligible, it's essentially nothing. Hurt feelings is the extent of it, as I've said. I've called him prejudiced in this thread, which covers all the things you mentioned in your posts, but racism is reserved for institutional, systemic power.

Doing my best to write this adequately. For myself I am not saying Kaladin is wrong to be angry. Nor am I saying Kaladin is wrong to fight injustice. What has been done to dark eyes, and is continued to be done to dark eyes is horrendous and should end. It should be discussed and rallied against. That the lighteyes tend to be the source of these horrors mete upon the dark eyes should also be realized and rallied against. But at the same token, at Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s march on the white house, there was people of all colors and creed welcome and urged to join. People of all colors and creed did march together on that day. Kaladin joking with Sigzil that if Sigzil was a murderer he would be in good company, and if the person Sigzil killed was a lighteyes, Kaladin would buy him a drink, however is problematic. That does not mean Kaladin is wrong to rally against the systemic racism mete out by the lighteyes. But toasting the death of a lighteyes just because he or she is a lighteyes also has issues. Hopefully I wrote that well. edit: for reference Way of Kings Page 577 "I like to know the men I lead" "And if some of us are murderers? Sigzil asked quietly "Then I'm in good company" Kaladin said "If it was a lighteyes you killed, then I might buy you a drink."

@Nellac A "what if it turns around" theoretical doesn't make the current situation any less what it is. It hasn't happened, and it's not on the table. If that were to happen and all institutional power flows away from the lighteyes and to the darkeyes, then the darkeyes would be enforcing the class system and I would be saying that lighteyes can't be racist against darkeyes. Hypotheticals don't change the logic. The experiences darkeyes have is not the same as lighteyes. Calling something racist is something many people find quite a serious accusation. By using the same word for Kaladin's anger and for the actions of people who did all of that to Kaladin, is calling Kaladin's anger immoral and illegitimate. Kaladin's anger is justified and righteous, even as he is letting go of his hatred. Calling him racist poisons the water; it implies by every definition brought up in this thread that Kaladin is wrong to be angry, because we all know being a racist is bad. He is not wrong to be angry and his suspicion and distrust of lighteyes is earned.

I think it's a real stretch to apply the term "racist" to the clash between Lighteyes and Darkeyes. Classist fits much better. Just like real world nobility was hereditary, so is being a lighteyes. Because nobility was hereditary and in most western European societies was passed from father to son for hundreds of years with marriages mostly only between nobility, there were probably enough genetic differences between the nobility and the regular people that you could probably even say that the nobility was a different race, or a different subset of a race. But no one does, because the relevant distinction is the power and wealth held by the nobles. The interaction between lighteyes and darkeyes is more like an interaction between the nobility and the commoners than between two racial groups. It's explicitly set up as a caste system, which could be (depending on your views) two 10-rank caste systems, or one 20-rank caste system. In my opinion, Kaladin is classist, but not racist. He is prejudiced against people based on their power and wealth, but not based on their race. If he had a prejudice against (for example) the Shin, that would make him a racist. Another point that we need to remember when considering the world of a fantasy novel - the Parshmen of tWoK are not a different race, they are a different species. Unlike the differences in various races of humans, between different species there are actual significant and measurable scientific differences in biological capability. Especially in terms of the "Parshmen" who were caused by magic to be mentally disabled for more than a thousand years. The Alethi of "modern" times did not know or understand that this was because of human magic. Based on real, unbiased scientific observation they held a reasonable conclusion at the time that the Parshmen were not an intelligent species. Every "Parshman" had the intelligence of a well trained animal and they were treated as such. They did not have the capability of becoming a fully sentient/sapient being from training or education. There is no equivalent situation to this in the real world. It wouldn't be accurate to call a bias against the Parshmen or Parshendi as "racism" because the Parsh/Singers/Listeners are not a race of humans. The best word for that kind of bias is xenophobia as I understand it.

Yeah, we’ll agree to disagree. Lets just say that I dont think using racism broadly puts the oppressed on the level of the oppressors. Compare it to the word murder. Amaram murdered Kaladins men, and Adolin murdered Sadeas. Both are defenitely murders, but what Adolin did was less bad than what Amaram did. Ina similar way, the systematic racism is much worse than Kaladins prejudices, but both would qualify as racism.

@Toaster Retribution And I consider a definition outside of systemic racism too broad, insultingly so, so I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on that. It puts the anger of the oppressed on the same level as the oppressors, treating both as equally bad, and that seems both incorrect and condescending in my view. Keeping it more in world of Roshar than real life, no one has been able to claim that Kaladin has anything more than a personal dislike. When he dislikes lighteyes and says something about it, people get mad and hurt, but the worst that happens to the lighteyes is they go, jeez, that darkeyes was such a jerk! And feel whatever hurt or angry feelings they want to feel. And that's the end of the impact. When a lighteyes dislikes Kaladin, the worst that could happen is... well, what actually happened to him. The Vorin church teaches the lighteyes are on top and they should be trusted; his society doesn't treat everyone equally, and many are treated worse, ie. the darkeyes. Kaladin's prejudice stems from repeated personal experience. It is impossible for Kaladin to be racist against lighteyes. What I find deeply interesting is how angry or condescending people get about Kaladin being this angry, as if anyone else wouldn't think what he thinks given his experiences. @Vissy I completely agree, especially about Shallan. Her thoughts and actions towards anyone of a lower rank than her are deeply classist/racist, and I find I do not enjoy reading her for this reason.

I think we are using the wrong term here. I believe Kaladin is less racist then classist. He doesn't necessarily have a problem with people's eye come so much as their status. This is why he accepts the "tenners" so easily. They are near his same class and so he doesn't have a problem with them. The reason it seems like racism is because he's always saying "light eyes." The thing is, the alethi don't have a term for nobility. This is down in Kaladin and Teft's inability to understand how the horn eaters government works. I think a better analogy for the situation on Roshar would be the nobility and peasants of medieval Europe. Kaladin has a problem with those who are in power, not those with light eyes. The problem is that in Roshar those things entertwine so much that it is hard, even for people on Roshar, to distinguish between the two. Basically, Kaladin hates people in power, but since all the people in power are light eyes, he transfers that anger towards them. Here's another reason why I don't think he's racist. He tries to take Shen in and treat him equally. Now, I know he doesn't always do the best at fulfilling that ideal, but he tries harder then anyone else we see in the book to work with and even treat equally a parshman.

I get a lot of questions from friends/family about what order to read the Cosmere in. There are a lot of 'roadmaps' out there, but most are rather old/out of date. I thought I'd share with the Shard the roadmap I put together (thanks for the inspo, whoever created this) for my loved ones. Note: This is current only up through February 2020 and does not contain several minor works. Edit: Updated per comments below. Edit 2: Posted to Reddit under Jadorel78 and updated 6/2020 Cosmere Roadmap - June 2020.pdf

So I've been thinking for a while and this makes a lot of sense. Now more so then being parts of his power, they are parts of either his personality, or his view of an ideal person. Now the reason I say this is because each order's ideals can be boiled down to a simple word. I believe that Honor was trying to split all the good/necessary attributes between a group as no one but a God could become perfect in all of them. Here are the words I think for each order. Note: Orders with a * by them are mainly guesses. 1. Bondsmith: Leadership 2. Windrunner: Protective nature 3. Skybreaker: Justice 4. Dustbringer: Righteous indignation*** 5. Edgedancer: Empathy/Compassion 6. Truthwatcher: Forethought/Planning*** 7. Lightweaver: Self Awareness 8. Elsecaller: Logic*** 9. Willshapers: Curiosity*** 10. Stoneward: Selflessness/Sacrifice*** Now I know the radiants weren't founded by Honor, but they were but the Heralds. Each order was created their ideals to exemplify their herald. Each of these Heralds was have picked, to the best of our knowledge, by Honor himself. I believe he wanted to create a group with all the attributes he considered necessary for a great person. It is easier for a person to pick a single ideal to try and perfect, then to try and perfect then all. This spreading of the ideals created some contention within the ranks of the radiants, but in the end it helped create a group that was as close as Honor could get to his own beliefs.

Not true. He mentions the rank of the lighteyes not the military rank of the person holding it. He also mentions somewhere else I think in OB that even lower Dahn lighteyes are payed better then darkeyes for the same work.

While I like the thought of being on the same GM level as Joe, I don't think any of my games have allowed players to kill the GM. I enjoy living too much I guess.

The report started with the names and cover-identities of the agents tasked with infiltrating the Set, and the reasons for the operation. She skipped over all that. She knew who she’d sent and she could dream the justification for the operation. Before going over to the next chapter, she picked up a heavy black pen and censored the names of teh agents. Irrespective of what followed next, that was information that’d have to be restricted. The next couple of chapters detailed the initial infiltration work. Individual contacts, slow but steady progress up into the organisation, as well as the occasional arranged incidents to help the agents climb up quickly. The details of those incidents were quickly censored too. Knowing that her agency had taken such steps was enough. Knowing the exact details wouldn’t help anyone at this point. And then something had gone wrong. The report provided several theories for the cause, but didn’t provide a definitive conclusion. All that was known for certain was that one of her agents had been found floating face-down in the canal separating Elendel’s 5th and 6th octant, and the Set had started their hunt the next day. *** Laurent Ervine has died. He was an EBI agent and an Array within the Communications Subset. *** Welcome to LG 63 everyone! Let me quickly repeat the publicly known rules: There are two factions, the ‘Elendel Bureau of Investigation Agents’ and ‘the Set’. Either faction wins by either eliminating the other faction entirely, or by reaching a position from which it would be impossible for them to lose. There are no other factions involved. This game consists of a 48 hour day-cycle and a 24-hour night cycle. There is a Lynch during the day-cycle, with no vote minimum and ties settled by random chance. Every night cycle the EBI agents can arrange for the arrest (read: ‘elimination’) of a player. There are no open PM’s, but some roles might allow for the creation of PM’s. The Set is organized in several specialized cells, known as subsets. To be able to submit any sort of action, you need to have posted at least once in the thread that cycle. This cycle will end Wednesday 6PM EST. player list: Role PM's are being send out. if you've received none within an hour or so of the cycle going live, please send me a PM.

Kaladin did, or was going to, but he grew as an individual, and realized that would be wrong. Words of Radiance page 1014 "If I protect..." He coughed "if I protect.... only the people I like, it means that I don't care about doing what is right" If he did that, he only cared about what was convenient for himself. That wasn't protecting. That was selfishness. Oathbringer page 79 (this is after Kaladin punched Roshone in the face) Suddenly, the perspective of it crashed down on him. Since leaving Hearthstone, Kaladin had met true evil, and Roshone hardly compared. hadn't he sworn to protect even those he didn't like? Wasn't the whole point of what he had learned to keep him from doing things like this? He glanced at Syl, and she nodded to him. Do better That is character growth. Kaladin did not want to give Dalinar a shot. Syl pushed him, and eventually he learned to. Maybe part of the disconnect is by labeling some actions Kaladin took in the past as racist is that it is being said he always will be. To me Kaladin held a worldview that was enforced by individuals. His anger towards those individuals and the system was justified. Some of his other actions and comments to me were not. Those were said or done out of pain. As he got to meet and know individuals that challenged his world view, he grew as a person.

He doesn't mistreat them. He's stiff and distant and has a generally angry energy he aims at everybody. It's his anger that people keep saying he should stop, even though he hasn't acted on it inappropriately. Even his biggest moment of hatred in WoR wasn't misaimed at some random lighteyes, but Elhokar, who had caused him and his family direct harm - and he still chose in the end to help Elhokar. The way that he's expressed his anger has been perfectly fine. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that people are upset that he's angry at all. But feeling anger is not a moral action and it shouldn't be put in the same category as being racist.

I think the reason why Dalinar, Adolin, and Shallan aren't receiving as much attention is because it seems obvious where they lie on the racism spectrum. Hard to defend them; thus they elicit less heated reaction. Kaladin seems to be in the middle ground and bringing out more opinions. The issue doesn't seem to be whether Kaladin has a right to be angry or not, but rather just the interpretation of the word 'racist'. I don't know which side it right, both have brought up good arguments. I do think Kaladin loathing all Lighteyes is bad, but as Greywatch is pointing out, because of his status as a darkeye can't really inflict any injustice upon them does it really amount to racism. Does it amount to Kaladin being classified as a rascist? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Anger is not morally incorrect, and when you run into situation after situation where lighteyes mistreated them, Kaladin and others traumatized like him are not obligated to perform their anger in a way that's palatable. They have a right to their anger, and to keep it without being considered morally reprehensible for it. What happened to him was evil, evil facilitated by his own society. Tack on "now don't forget not to hate ALL lighteyes, or you're just as bad!" to a guy who had to do something like bridge runs, and that encapsulates why I find the demand that Kaladin let go of all of his anger completely to be an unfair and indefensible position.

Howdy all, This is my first post on this forum; it's great to be here! Although I have perused this site for some time, please excuse me if this theory has been previously stated. I also wanted to mention that I heard this theory from a close friend, and I have added slightly to it. So the credit (or criticism) goes to him! In short, I believe that Brandon used the word "capacity" in a purposefully ambiguous way; the interpretation of this term has series-altering potential. Let's first separate fact from assumption. Fact 1: Taravangian was given his condition by asking for "the capacity" to save mankind. Fact 2: Taravangian's condition is defined by a sliding scale of attributes. As he grows more intelligent, he becomes less compassionate and vice versa. Essentially, Taravangian's character is defined by four traits--intelligence, stupidity, ruthlessness, and compassion. Assumption: Taravangian's "capacity" to save mankind is referring to his attributes of intelligence and ruthlessness--to a lesser extent) Specifically, it has granted him the capacity to have that outlier day of supreme intelligence, the day where the Diagram was created. There are several reasons why I believe that the above assumption is wrong. 1. Odium's Encounter--At the end of Oathbringer, Odium displays such a degree of foreknowledge and sheer intelligence that the predictions of the Diagram and Taravangian's potential intelligence seem inconsequential in comparison. Taravangian, based upon his intelligence and ability to make ruthless decisions, never stood a chance. He never had the "capacity" in this way. 2. The Diagram's Degree of Error--As the series progresses, the Diagram seems to stray further and further off course. Although some characters initially chalk this off to misinterpretation, it becomes clear that Diagram is flawed based upon unforeseen results. This concept is further reinforced through other characters, such as Renarin, predicting the future incorrectly. 3. Taravangian's Own Experience--Lastly, Taravangian himself notes that his outlying days are very similar. When he is both incredibly intelligent and stupid, he cannot interact with humans in a meaningful way. Also, his decisions when he is most intelligent/ruthless seem to actually be incredibly stupid (i.e. killing off his subjects for being stupid etc.). In short, the above reasons, especially in view of Taravangian's story arc, show that his intelligence/ruthlessness never even came close to giving him the capacity to save mankind. This does not seem in keeping with what we know about the Nightwatcher/Old Magic. Instead, I believe that Taravangian's "capacity" comes from his more neglected attributes--his potential for compassion and/or for extreme stupidity. These attributes will increase in importance as his character becomes more aligned with Odium. His stupidity may thwart Odium at some critical point, and his compassion is not compatible with being an effective ally of Odium. In a way, Taravangian seems very alike to Gollum. Each are maligned characters that may unintentionally tip the balance in the favor of good, and each are intrinsically tied to the trait of compassion--Gollum to Frodo's compassion and Taravangian to his very own. Furthermore, all this is in keeping with what we know about the Old Magic--namely, that boons are indeed granted but often in ways that are unforeseen/unconventional. Please let me know what you think. Regardless of whether it happens or not, this could lead to a very redemptive/beautiful story arc and could be a very Sandersonian twist. TLDR: Taravangian's capacity to save mankind refers to his compassion/stupidity rather than his intelligence/ruthlessness.

I disagree very strongly here. Kaladin had very bad and unjust things happen to him and those make his attitude later very understandable, but they don't make that attitude right. Storms, a key point in his character development is letting go of his anger like we see in the Thaylen fields when he chooses to protect Dalinar over killing Amaram. No suspicion or mistrust towards what I assume is a huge part of the population is ever earned.

Thank you. I feel this is what I was trying to say.

I like the term "systematic racism", because it is clear what it is talking about. Kaladin is very much against systematic racism. He has experienced the injustice of it, he doesn't want to just reverse the tables and lord it over lighteyes, he would very much like it if justice and honor were actually true, fair things for everybody. His experiences have made him prejudiced against lighteyes. Other characters either embrace or passively accept systematic racism, and they are prejudiced against darkeyes, though their prejudice is less about hating darkeyes for things done to them, and more about discomfort at darkeyes being out of there place, fear, or seeing darkeyes as throwaways. Neither prejudice against lighteyes or darkeyes is good. Kaladin shows his ability to grow beyond his prejudice, and start to see the lighteyes he meets as just people. One thing that drives me up the wall about all the "Kaladin is racist" threads I've seen is that Dalanar, Adolin, ans Shallan are also "racist", along with bmany others. It kind of makes me crazy that this is seen as a problem just for Kaladin, that he needs to get over and then the world will just be hunky-dor, but no one else needs to tackle their own prejudices.

Scrumdiddlyumptious

I agree. To add, just because someone may then be educated on their racism, and change their ways, does not erase the racism they once upon a time perpetrated. Can they be forgiven, and move on? Totally. But it does not change that at that time their actions were racist. Regarding the superior portion of the definition, Kaladin has made numerous comments that all lighteyes are corrupt to the core. That they will always take the worse action they can. By proxy darkeyes are different and have to stick together. That is denoting an ethical/moral superiority to the lighteyes. Further, just because individuals have in the past validated such a world view, does not mean the worldview is ok and not racist. It just means the individuals Kaladin has been exposed to, have validated that world view. It is only after being exposed to individuals that run contrary to that world view that Kaladin begins to change his worldview. Which is commendable, but at the same time does not change that the original worldview was damaging and harmful. And it doesn't change the racist tones of that worldview. In addition, by noting such comments and treatment as racist towards a privileged class does not belittle, or erase the horrendous treatment being done to the marginalized group. But by realizing it falls to the same pitfalls, and that all are people, equal in their rights, that understanding can be brought together on all sides. Finally, regarding classism versus racism. Economically a darkeyes can raise their nahn, and travel, true. However, only darkeyes can be made slaves. Further no matter how much money a darkeyes attains, even if they are richer than a lighteyes of the tenth dahn, they are still viewed socially as lesser than the lighteyes of the tenth dahn. And when I say lesser, I don't just mean in the economic eyes. Mentally and emotionally lighteyes are seen as superior by the society when compared to the darkeyes. Spiritually they are seen as superior. So for myself, when it does not matter how much money you accrue, by law, culture, and religion, based on the color of your eyes you are still treated as inferior? That is racism, not classism (to me). Now having said that, racism is a supremely individualistic experience. What one person experiences as being part of a marginalized group can be similar but at the same time incredibly different. There is also positive racism. Positive not in that it is beneficial or good, but positive as in the generalizations made are sounding favorable (i.e. all members of this group tend to be very good at math), but are still very very damaging. So racism can mean many very different things for different people, which I believe is what led to whole range of dialogue on this topic.

I like the theory that Kaladin's mother is from Kharbranth and that Kaladin will be granted the protection that Odium promised.

I don't know the proper term for it, but bridge!Kaladin is definitely discriminstory against people he considers "high class" or "privileged", something borne out of his trauma. This attitude disappears gradually and fast, but it was there and I'd say it's one of his key development points with Syl. Where I do think Kaladin, and a lot of others, were truly racist was with the parshmen. Even in book 2, when Shen asks him about his freedom he thinks he has enough problems to have to worry about what people will say if a parshmen gets too much freedom. I can't quote from the book but I believe it was something like that. Of course he does give Rlain a spear and treats him as an equal and I think that he's learnt that his "acceptance" of parsh slavery wasn't ok. I think he pitied them back in book 1 too and compared his situation with theirs too, I think that when he was feeling sorry for himself he thought that they had it much worse or something along those lines. His attitude definitely wasn't the worst and he was on the right direction, but there was still the underlying thought that the parshmen weren't at the same level as humans. Like with the other example he grows out of this pretty fast in my opinion.

The Tranquiline Halls and Damnation are dim recollections of the other planets in the Rosharan System. Kaladin at one point mentions that the latter is also known as Braize in old songs, so some memory of that survives. Likewise Brandon has confirmed that the Tranquiline Halls idea is based on a recollection of Ashyn, the world humanity originally inhabited in the system before most of the population fled the cataclysm for Roshar.. The historical record on Roshar ranges from spotty to non-existent and pretty much everything prior to the fall of the Hierocracy is suspect due to the tampering or destructiion of records by the Vorin church. Without going into Cosmere mechanics about death (which make your idea... unlikely) there's this WoB that makes it clear that Elhokar is lucky to have lasted as long as he did but he's very very dead:

Kaladin, "racist"? Nah, of course not. Racism is the combination of prejudice with power and oppressive systems. It's when from your birth you're treated worse and even enslaved because of your heritage. It's systemic disenfranchisement, where at every turn you find yourself treated as lesser, all life long. The fight of the slave against their masters is not the same as the oppression of the slaves by their masters.

*cough* disintegrates *cough*

A lot of what the Rosharans believe about the afterlife is basically myths. If you haven't read Mistborn yet, I would suggest doing that, and getting all the way through to Secret History, as that would answer some of your questions. But Elhokar's Blade appeared, he stopped glowing, and his Cryptic is bonded to someone else. He's pretty clearly permanently dead.

Spoilers for Wheel of Time:

Does Kaladin go and best up lighteyes just because? Nope. As I've said many, many times in this thread, the impact of what Kaladin actually does about his anger is negligible. He says words, and some people get offended and angry that he would dare. That's about it.

I don't see the problem with quoting MLK. Either way, you haven't actually rebutted that point. It is evil to judge someone simply based on bad experiences you've had in the past with similar people. Let me give you a better analogy. Let's say I got mugged in a city on three separate occasions. Each time it was by people who I know are left-handed. Does that justify me hating all people who are left-handed. Is it "righteous and correct" as you later put it for me to be rude and antagonistic towards anyone who happens to be left-handed? This is what you are justifying Kaladin doing. You are saying that since some light-eyed people have been terrible to him he is justified in hating everyone else who happens to be light eyed. Your analogy doesn't work. The problem is that getting a job is a choice that you make. You go to that business and you sign agreements to work for them and usually there is certain protocol you need to follow. That company can choose to fire you at any time because of their behavior. Perhaps they will have to pay you extra to make up for breaking an agreement, but it is their right as your boss to fire you if they want to. That's how jobs work. His hatred at Rashone, Amaram, Elokar, and Sadeus may be fair. His anger at all other light eyes is unfair because they haven't done anything wrong to Kaladin. Again, he is judging people by their eye color and not their actions.

I love BABY YODA!!!

What's everyone's favorite cosmere twist. Mine has to be the whole OreSeur TenSoon debacle. It just blows my mind how well it was played out. Never saw it coming!

THEY SHALL RECEIVE MY RESPECT

You can't be racist against the dominant class of people. That's not what racism is. Racism is what is propagated and perpetuated by the Alethi class system where those with dark eyes are of the lower class and those with light eyes are of the middle to upper class. What @Greywatch said is spot on. If anyone discussed here has experienced racism and classism in the story of Stormlight, I'd argue that experiencing these things has been a major part of Kaladin's character arc. Shallan is definitely racist, classist and all of the rest as well. I do not like what she is at this point in the story. She has her own issues, but the way she's dealt with them so far has been by being mean, vindictive and abusive towards the people around her, especially Kaladin. She's a bad person. And by the end of Book 3, she still hasn't quite begun to grapple with the true extent of her issues.

I assume so... What about Nightblood? Also congrats!!

Taln discovered fire by telling Stick to turn into fire.

This is an inaccuracy I have been noticing more and more lately. I have read many posts accusing Kelsier of being racist. This is simply untrue. He has prejudices based off of social class and privilege rather than race. His prejudice is not unfounded either considering how the nobles have treated the Skaa for a thousand years.