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  1. Adolin shows his love more in his actions than his thoughts I think. He brings her food when he hears she hasn't eaten, which is pretty thoughtful. He wants to teach her how to use a Shardblade because it's something he loves and he's excited to share it. He wants her to come along with the visit to Ialai because he think she's smart and comforting to him. He defends her from Dalinar when Shallan annoys him. etc. etc. And okay... yes. All of this could be interpreted in a different direction. That's totally reasonable. This is just how I read it, and how I think Brandon intended for it to come across. If I've learned anything from getting my wife into these books, it's that (1) Brandon's [generally] not that great at writing romance and (2) my own taste for romance is unrefined. I think most of the debate over the interactions between Shallan, Adolin, and Kaladin boils down to different people seeing different things in the same text.
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  2. Concerning the original post of the topic, I wanted to say... I think Brandon's being really optimistic here. Which makes sense... He's trying to break the news gently. It's easy to say you hope someone will be pleased and then walk away, you know? At the end of the day he's going to tell the story he wants to tell, and he's just hoping it pleases more people than it doesn't. I assume he's implying that he's not going to just drop the Shallan-Adolin relationship and let it settle. That would surely frustrate a lot of people--particularly those who aren't fond of the relationship as it is now. My hope is that he does interesting things with their relationship and that it affects their stories in meaningful ways. In that case, perhaps people who didn't like the pairing will find something to love (or at least like) over the next two books. But obviously there's no way it will please everyone. I can't speak as a Shalladin shipper, so I can't pretend to know what development would make their relationship more interesting to read from that perspective. Personally, I hope that Brandon uses them to explore marriage of a young couple (something he did with Vin/Elend, but I think he can do better). I hope they have problems to work through. More specifically, I'd like to watch them have to work through Shallan's issues together. Maybe Adolin doesn't really understand her issues to some extent. So let him learn. Maybe Adolin doesn't love her as much as he should (or vice versa). So let's see that develop. My hope is that Brandon sees room for conflict/development in their current relationship, and he takes some time to explore it.
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  3. From the album: Misborn Doodles

    I wasn't planning on posting this, but it was on the top of a picture I posted in my thread, but someone said they liked it, so here it is.
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  4. Well folks, 21 fantastic Rithmatists are entering the arena, but only 1 will emerge as the champion. Tom, the excitement in here is deafening. Can you talk a bit about the strategy that's involved here? It's all about defense Ron. Do you play it safe and risk an imperfect circle, or do you rush into battle, hoping to overwhelm your opponents? It's always a tough decision. And we certainly can't forget about politics. Making alliances is crucial to surviving the early stages. Still, there's nothing preventing sudden betrayals. That just makes it interesting. Indeed. As a reminder, in your role PM, please respond with what defense you would like to draw. For 48 hours, and only for these 48 hours, PMs are open. Make sure to include both myself and Alvron in them. This round lasts 48 hours, and will end on Thursday, January 10, 2018 at 4:00 PM EST. Good luck. Player List:
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  5. Wow, you accuse people of making assumptions and distortions, and then go on to make an entire post that is nothing but? That's rich. Some points of clarification: First, a whole lot of assumptions here. The actual text in question: I think it's clear from the text that it was Radiant who determined the "master/pupil" relationship and only because Shallan screwed up and made Radiant act too formal, making a diversion/retraction necessary. Adolin actually says that that kind of relationship is not necessary. This is blatantly wrong. It's okay to have your own viewpoint, but when that opinion directly contradicts the text, then it is a wrong viewpoint. Again, the actual text: It's not. It's clear that he genuinely cares about her, but the topic of love actually is mentioned very little. This is debatable. Shallan doesn't, as I and Brandon have said multiple times, Shallan does not have multiple-personality disorder. Shallan has a completely different problem that is only exacerbated by her lightweaving. The fact that Adolin acknowledges these as "different" people is actually enabling her to continue the delusion she's convinced herself of. Adolin never met the "real" Shallan, and this is the crux of the problem. So much time is spent on Shallan in Words of Radiance that it is easy to assume that what we learn of Shallan, everyone else does as well. In fact, the bulk of the Adolin favoritism does this very thing--assuming and inferring that Adolin knows the real Shallan, when the Shallan he knows is only the mask, the persona, that she adopted on arrival in the Shattered Plains. It is a surface-level Shallan, the Shallan of WoK without the depth and darkness below. And to be clear, this is how far back this mask is in place: Keep in mind also that Brandon has said that the "moments of fiery passion" were far more the real Shallan than the witty, scholarly artist. As readers, our insight into the real Shallan is seldom. The text quoted above from Oathbringer is one of the few instances we have of the "real" Shallan. This is the part that's been buried beneath the mask, the part that comes out when Shallan is desperate. This is the part she revealed to Kaladin in the chasms. Adolin has never seen this part of Shallan, therefore he can't know which one is true. And as I just demonstrated, the Shallan that arrived in the Shattered Plains is not her real self. This And this are two completely different things. When we "Shalladin" folk say we want Shallan to be whole, we are talking about her mental well-being. Does Shallan want men? Clearly. She's a horny teenager! But does she needs a man to dictate who she should be and how she should heal? NO. That kind of thought process is sexist and misogynistic. Shallan is brilliant because she stands on her own two feet, and what pisses so many people off about Oathbringer is that her strength as a character is undercut and demeaned by a man dictating who she should be, saying he'll hand her off to another man like some kind of property, and overall being treated like she's a whimsical chit who exists primarily to show how great a rather flawed male character is.
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  6. I'm not a fan of happy endings, I like when characters sacrifice their lives during epic showdowns. I'd prefer such ending for Kaladin. Also Shallan. Because I don't like her.
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  7. Well, I guess you could read this as "he doesn't love her". You could also do the opposite. I for example read it (and frankly, most of Adolin's interactions with Shallan) as "guy has a history of messing things up and now for the first time really wants things to work out so he's very insecure about himself and would never force anything on the girl".
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  8. "The glorification of him being Mr. Right in every way?" That is a straw chull, my friend. As are a number of the distortions I bolded above. I hardly think any character is "Mr. Perfect" (that would be somewhat poor characterization on Sanderson's part), even Kaladin Stormblessed definitely has character flaws and regrettable decisions. But I also think you're going out of your way to paint Adolin in a poor light in the above descriptions. In my reckoning, Adolin was simply training Shallan the same way he was trained. When you are playing the role of a master instructing a junior (especially a novice), it is traditional even in our world to require formal terms of respect even if you are otherwise friends in a less formal context. I believe Adolin said as much from the get-go, that their relationship had to be in a different "mode" while training. The very fact that he was willing to train Shallan, a woman, in Shardblade forms, was a huge break from Vorin tradition, and is an obvious counter to anybody saying Adolin only views Shallan as "a silly girl who draws". Quite the opposite, he has enormous respect (and even envy) for her abilities and inner strength. I view Shallan's creation of "Radiant" as a persona to reflect her desire to measure up to the very serious requirements that come with being looked up to as a Shardblade-wielding KR not just by Adolin, but by everyone; where Shallan would get distracted by lovey-dovey thoughts of Adolin being so physically close, Radiant can focus on the business at hand. His "stepping back" to "let" her be with Kaladin (or, as he erred in phrasing it, "to let him have [her]") was painful to him, he did it out of a sincere desire for her to be happy. However you interpret his frequent and brief courtships of women in the warcamps, or his killing of Sadeas (which act should have repercussions in Book 4 now that the truth is out there), I think as written, it's clear that Adolin (a) genuinely loves Shallan, (b) is concerned about her "multiple personalities", which he didn't know about for a while, (c) is helping Shallan to view her "original" self, the one he first met, as the real Shallan. If you as a reader disagree that her "original" self (as she presented herself when first arriving to the Shattered Plains in Words of Radiance) is in fact her "real" self, even after all the first person POVs from her perspective as well as what Adolin himself sees, that's your right. But I think that would be a case of reading beyond what's there. As for "Shallan doesn't need a man to be whole" - it depends what you mean by "whole". Shallan grew up very sheltered, and is clearly is the romantic sort, possibly from forming her ideas of social interaction primarily from reading a lot of books (and guess what women's fiction is full of, even on Roshar, as Palona's reading attests to). She fell for Kabsal rather quickly, was madly attracted to Adolin at first sight, got googly-eyed over Kaladin... She doesn't "need a man" to function, but it's clearly in her personality to want to be with a man. Frankly I'm more worried about Adolin's future emotional well-being than Shallan's.
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  9. Okay so this is pretty open ended, but while on the Who Do You Want Most Dead thread and the Am I The Only One That... I noticed that... People, including myself really hate Moash, and I think y'all need to vent because I'm seeing it every where. (Myself included...) So go, my friends, RANT.
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  10. And what's wrong with it? People here desire the most painful deaths for some characters, and even describe the process, but my pretty innocent comment is the worst?
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  11. Am I the only one hoping that Kaladin makes it through the whole series with absolutely no romantic attachments?
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  12. Awesome, nice twists Ashpren! I think I found some of that Toaster, and it was definitely a Shakespearean Tradgedy: GIMMEL: 'O Hotdogeo, Hotdogeo! Wherefore art mine Hotdogeo? KELSIER: Shall I hear more, or shall I soothe yon crazy loon? (Kelsier suspended underneath the balcony, burps, then listens as Gimmel keeps talking to himself) GIMMEL: A rose by any other name is still a rose, but no rose doth taste as sweet as mine Hotdog-eo. Filings of iron, dustings of pewter, a solitary piece of atium didst adorn my fair Hotdogeo. Oh miserable wretch am I, I am lost without mine Hotdogeo I've got good news and bad news for you Gray. First the good news, your nemesis is dead...which leads directly to the bad news, I think you're on your own on this one... Super excited for this, I think this is going to be an awesome round!
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  13. Y'know, I'm not an analysis reader. I go with "does it feel good/bad/right? Yes? No? Done. I'm mostly too lazy to go through page after page to find evidence for something I don't need to convince myself, especially not in the futile attempt to make other people see things as I do. I've given up on that years ago, especially online. I don't see the point. I still try to determine where I let myself be dragged into this, because I'm not even a Shadolin person. I'm mostly a "romance didn't take up too much space and was (for now) resolved without unnecessary drama? I'm cool." I could have done without any romance at all honestly. That's the reason why I'm not exactly passionate about proving that Shallan and Adolin are the perfect match. I don't even think they are! But none of the quotes and analysis in this (and other) thread did convince me they're completely horrible for each other. So I hope they make it work, because otherwise, we'd have more love triangle blah blah and that would be something to really annoy me.
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  14. Sorry you're so busy! I understand what it's like to be limited by time--I mean, I've been back on here actively for about a week, I work full-time, I have two young children, and I'm building a portfolio for my art career. But I love analysis, so I make sure that when I make my posts that I'm doing a good job and source as much material as I can--because let's face it, analytical discussion without evidence to back it up is really just theory debating.
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  15. I wanted to take some time away from this thread so I could settle myself before replying. Generally, it's a good rule of thumb in forums that if a post pisses you off, you hold off your reply until a time when you can reply calmly, and if you can't, you don't do it at all. That is what I am doing here. One of the big problems with your post is that you seem to take issue with two words I used near the beginning of my comments on Jasnah, and felt it necessary to make an entire post just to rant about my word choice. Judging from the content of your post, you either didn't read the rest of my comments after that, or you were too incensed by my word choice to think beyond them. Either way, I think you missed the point of my post entirely. First, I want to address this idea that you think I believe Jasnah is a coldhearted monster (through implication). I never even insinuated as much. I didn't say she was wholeheartedly amoral either--I said she was a somewhat amoral leader, meaning that she doesn't have a baseline of "this is good, this is bad" from which to operate that we know of. Her actions are pragmatic, no matter how heinous or benevolent an action may be. Later in the paragraph you take issue with, I even acknowledged most of your points: Further, the very first sentence of the next paragraph reads: The implication here, is that the entire paragraph prior to this is what we know before Oathbringer. In fact, most of the "Jasnah is a caring person" points you address are actually shown to us in Oathbringer itself, as was indicated by a point I made a little while later: Far from what you insinuate in your post, I went on at length after this to show that what we learned from Oathbringer, combined with our prior knowledge from Way of Kings, is that Jasnah, when push comes to shove, usually chooses the pragmatic option. Yes, she has some instances where she shows a softer side, but it's a point of fact that Jasnah is driven to do what must be done at any cost. In this way, she is very much like Hoid. Additionally, I didn't say Kaladin needs to teach Jasnah morality, but rather that Kaladin could be a tempering voice, as in someone who can reign back. Kaladin's own strong sense of morality provides an avenue for this, since he is so opinionated about what is right and wrong he is least likely to fold to Jasnah's will out of anyone in the cast. This isn't a demonization of Jasnah nor an extolation of Kaladin--it is an observation, that the two can balance each other out. That's all. Jasnah can help Kaladin get callouses, Kaladin can reign in Jasnah's logic. That doesn't mean they'll always agree or be beneficial--as I said, conflict will occur. It's inevitable. Aside from these points, I think you and I generally feel the same way about Jasnah, and I'm sorry that you misinterpeted my statements to such a severe degree. I was giving a very brief overview, not an in-depth analysis, since the topic was not "Jasnah" or "Kaladin" but rather "why they could work together." You and I may disagree on this idea, and that's okay, but in the future, please refrain from attacking two words in an otherwise massive post, without any indication you actually read the post. This behavior is insulting, and demeans the hard work and often hours that go into these large posts. Thanks.
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  16. Realism did not seem to be the goal regarding Shallan's disorder: But I get what you mean @Eris
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  17. I'm back with a new load of cosmemes... This one's kind of dark, but so is Mistborn: This is pretty self-explanatory Mistborn stuff (WoA spoilers): Speaking of Mistborn, here's my biggest question from Secret History (spoilers): Don't get me started on this: I used @Zas678's face to make this one, technically, so credit goes to him, I guess (WoR Pattern stuff): I regret this one, but here goes the bandwagon: Dragons: Poor Sovereign (Bands of Mourning spoilers): Spoilers for Words of Radiance and Oathbringer: This is all of us: And I couldn't help but do this too (Well of Ascension spoilers): And a couple of Skyward memes (SPOILER WARNING FOR SKYWARD):
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  18. More doodles from during math~
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  19. Unfortunately, I overestimated my capacity to experience the greatness that is Brandon's writing, and I was not able to meet my goal. My favorite character has to be Lopen. In my opinion, he's the best king Alethkar ever saw.
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  20. Alright, for my 1000th post on the 17th Shard... Updated version with correct Pailiah spelling! I'm too lazy/busy to figure out exactly what I did to make the multiple black versions, so I'm not toying with that. You only get two options now, sorry. Original post is updated.
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  21. Hear hear. Just to add background, we know it’s likely Odium has a method of extracting knowledge from the dying, considering the Sleepless’ statement to Kaza that she cannot even sate a dying wish because there are those who can take info from the dead. Unfortunately, I don’t have my copy of OB right now so I can’t find the exact quote. But that’s one of the main points of evidence for this theory.
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  22. Hah, that's what I mentioned in my long post. What characters say !== what characters think. In Shallan's case it is even worse though. Kaladin says he doesn't love Shallan, he doesn't think it. It's my another favourite topic, actually. Some people think, that he really thinks he doesn't love her, some people say that he is lying to himself. Well, I think neither of this is true. I think, he has enough self-awareness and self respect to understand that he loves her. He isn't lying to himself, he lies to Syl. That's my opinion. During OB we have at least three conversations between Syl and Kaladin regarding Shallan. I won't give quotes now, you can find them if you want. First time is in Alethkar, when she first asks him about Shallan, and her "words strike uncomfortably close to the truth". He wants to finish the conversation and replies honestly - she is betrothed. Syl insists, so Kaladin changes tactics and says something like "she is lighteyes, end of conversation". When did he ever (post-chasms) think of her being lighteyes? It is pure excuse. And he is quite rude here with this "end of conversation", but whatever. Second time they talk about Shallan in Shadesmar (IIRC), and he tries another excuse - something like she brought her maid to brush her hair. This is just ridiculous, I would never beleive Kaladin could really think this about Shallan after chasms. He is not such an idiot. And then we have this final "I didn't love her" revelation. Again, this is said to Syl. When she again started talking about Shallan. When Shallan is kissing Adolin in front of Kaladin (well, below, but who cares). Kaladin says - "she made her choice". He respects her choice and understands there is nothing he can do about it, this is her free will. He also respects himself to understand that he must deal with it and find something else to do. Or someone else. But Syl doesn't understand it. She insists that he has just lost a round and has to continue. He just doesn't want to speak about it, but he also doesn't want to be rude, so he lies to Syl that he didn't love Shallan. And then he makes a virtuosic hook with a stone and "she reminds me of someone". Not "she reminds me of my brother", but "of someone". He uses Syl's curiosity to change a topic gracefully with this stone and with this "someone". This is my opinion, but I am pretty sure that i) Kaladin loves(d) her and ii) he understands it clearly and doesn't lie to himself. It is, for me, one of the best of his moments in a book, beautiful and strong and it convinces me that he will be all right with his love life eventually. Well, I don't appreciate lying to Syl, but in this moment it was what he chose to do to close this topic.
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  23. AG 5: One Final Blaze of Light Hello, and welcome to the 5th Anniversary Game! This game is special for a lot of reasons. It marks 5 years that we've been a community here on the Shard, and 4 years since I signed up for my first long-form game. It's been a crazy wonderful ride, and I've loved the community that we've built here, even if I haven't been around as much recently. This game is also significant for at least one other reason: over the past few months, I've been less and less involved in the Shard and the SE Community. When I started here, I was a college student, newly married, and full of energy. Now I'm graduated, with a full-time job and two children (and another on the way), and I'm finding it increasingly difficult to carve out space and time for SE games. I have writing projects I want to get to, children I want to spend time with, and ever-increasing responsibilities. Rather than keep telling myself that I'll be coming back in a month or two and eventually drifting off into full-fledged inactivity without ever saying goodbye, I've decided to officially retire. That way, I can do it on my own terms, instead of leaving you all in the lurch. So this game is sort of my swan song, and I have chosen to have one last Shard game, to wrap everything up. Bring the whole ponderous story of Hoid and the Shards of Adonalsium (first started by @A Joe in the Bush, who will actually be co-GMing this game with me) to a thrilling and stunning conclusion. But to do that, I'll need your help. These games are long, and complicated, and incredibly fun! But they don't work very well unless everybody stays active. So, if you sign up for this game, please stay active. This game will be an anonymous game, so please follow all of the rules for anonymous accounts: Reminder: Rules for Anonymous Accounts: At the start of the game, you will be issued an anonymous account. There are a number of rules associated with the use of an Anonymous Account. Please follow them carefully. Given the potential for abuse of Anonymous Accounts, any rule breaking using the accounts will be dealt with harshly. 1) Do not change the password of the anonymous account you are issued. Orlok, Joe and I will have access to all anonymous accounts for the duration of the game. 2) Do not use the anonymous accounts to PM any non-anonymous account, other than the accounts of the GMs. Please do not use your normal accounts to PM anonymous accounts. 3) Do not change anything cosmetic about the accounts, including member title, username, signature, and avatar. 4) Do not reveal your identity or explicitly claim to be another player. Without any further ado, I give you AG5: One Final Blaze of Light. Rules: Current Signup Count: 31 Pinch Hitters: 3 Signups will end at 1:00 AM, MST, January 14th: Quick Links:
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  24. Per summons, I must now post my awesome Taravangian schpiel. I don't believe that for a moment. The Diagram has been absolutely accurate up to this point. It's "failures" have steered events precisely. Szeth's slaughter of world leaders created the ground on which the coalition was built. The release of information to undermine the coalition lead directly to Dalinar's desperate situation and rejection of Odium during the battle of Thaylen city which in turn led to the meeting with Odium where he read those words. Taravangian on the day of the Diagram laid out this plan to steer his less intelligent self (and even on genius days, he's still far less intelligent) by the nose to follow the true plan he had on that day. That plan did not exist outside of his head. Odium is aware of everything that is in the Diagram, and to have written down the plan would mean to expose it to scrutiny. The goals of the Diagram are not, and have never been what Taravangian believes. This is not about saving a remnant. This is not capitulation. This is about positioning himself where he can do the most to undermine Odium directly. He is now a "servant" of Odium, ruling one of the most powerful nations on Roshar. Odium believes him to be loyal out of necessity, because Taravangian himself believes that. Which is the entire point. He is a trusted tool of the enemy. It's in that "capacity" that he'll be able to do what needs to be done. Or as @RShara likes to put it. "T is a plant" The Diagram foresaw it, planned for it, and facilitated his rejection.
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  25. Things the Diagram Has Done to Strengthen Dalinar's Position: Pushed Kaladin to swear his Third Ideal Put a very pliant Emperor on the Azish throne (why else kill two Azish Emperors in a row?) Removed Jah Keved as a rival neighbor (can you imagine how much harder it would have been to build Dalinar's coalition with a belligerent Jah Keved still in the way?) Created a Skybreaker willing to follow Dalinar instead of the will of Nale (it was only a rock) Giving Dalinar the idea to capture Nergaoul Helped persuade the Theylans to join the coalition with the Kharbranthian surgeons, which in turn helped bring in the Azish because Fen was willing to help I'm sure I could come up with more if I took more time. I'm also going to guess that Dalinar is going to receive a friendly tip about how Odium can't see the future where Renarin is concerned. At pretty much every relevant turn, The Diagram has been beneficial to Dalinar's progression into the leader of the coalition against Odium. So to answer your question, yes I believe that The Diagram foresaw Dalinar's Ascension. That said, I don't think current Mr T or the Diagram's members see anything they're doing in that light. Diagram Mr T, fueled by Cultivation, is playing modern Mr T and friends for a greater purpose than they realize. It's also worth attempting to summon @Calderis since Calderis is a Diagram junkie
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  26. Yeah, there are problems and potential problems with their relationship,but I don't see that as 'it shouldn't have happened' but 'hey let's explore their relationship, and see how they work through the problems (or don't).
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  27. I was actually in math class, and I usually doodle stuff like this, but I liked this one, so here it is.
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  28. From the album: Syl Doodles

    Little doodles from Bio
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  29. Or Adolin getting decapitated... in front of Shallan. I’d buy 1,000 hard covers for that one.
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  30. Oh Shakespeare, my old nemesis. I never thought I'd have to work with you to win a rap battle Edit: Storms! I was saving my 200th post for the roast
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  31. Someone had to say Words that we must all expect Yes, I am a Stick.
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  32. Gotcha. There will be guests, there will be roastin, and all will be by me. Can you explain the Shakespeare part btw. We have to write everything with his flowery language? Why arth thou stealing thy boots, you dastardly crook? That kind of stuff? Haha! Well done! I wrote a 90-page Shakesperian poem about Gemmels opinion on hot dogs...
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  33. I want to throw this in here because I think its relevant, though not directly, especially in evaluating Jasnah's moral character. Jasnah would have killed Renarin if he had not changed the future. Jasnah knew that 1) there is a traitor in Urithiru, 2) Renarin's spren is not a Truthwatcher spren and Renarin is claiming to be a Truthwatcher, and 3) Renarin was seeing the future, a thing everyone on Roshar knows is "of the void". It is a fair conclusion that Renarin is the traitor. In steeling herself to execute Renarin, she reminds herself that threats to a dynasty generally come from within the dynasty itself, and given her insistence that learning from the past is the best way to move into the future it makes sense to her that she should remove intra-dynastic threats as much as extra-dynastic threats. She is callous. That is not to say she is immoral. If she had been right, she would have been doing the right thing. The problem is, she didn't have all the information. When Renarin responds to her execution by tearfully nodding his acceptance, he signals to her that he is suffering from a different manifestation of the same problem that has plagued him his whole life: something difficult is happening to him that makes him different from anyone else and he doesn't understand it. He never even really commits to the claim that he is a Truthwatcher, he cites Glys instead. He worries throughout Oathbringer (and much of Words of Radiance, probably) that he is a fraud. All of this is new information to Jasnah. If Renarin had reacted with surprise and pleading, not knowing the future, she would have killed him. But knowing the future and having time to make some sort of perverse peace with the fact that Jasnah was going to kill him, he is able to send her a different message. That is why she didn't kill him, not some previously unplumbed depth of compassion or familial love. Why is this relevant? It shows the kind of person she is. Jasnah, to my mind, is willing to kill without having all the facts in hand, just enough to satiate her perception. She is willing to kill Renarin with a lot of circumstantial evidence that he is the traitor, nothing definitive. She is willing to kill the Heralds based on merely hoping that it could forestall the current Desolation, knowing only what the Stormfather told Dalinar about how the Oathpact works (read: not much). To use Mr T's model of leadership as pertaining to crime and punishment, her threshold of guilty punished per innocent man caught up wrongly in the system is very low. I imagine like Mr T, Jasnah would have hanged 1 innocent man and 3 guilty men. Jasnah deeply values dynastic stability, and as someone who flatters themselves into thinking they know a thing or two about history, dynastic stability is maybe the single most important thing that any leader can provide for the welfare of their country. Nothing in history is quite so bloody as succession wars. But Kaladin is on the opposite end of the spectrum in this. He represents the innocent man caught up wrongly in the system. Kaladin isn't happy until everyone who it is right to have saved is saved. To sum up what I am saying (and what I am not saying): 1) Jasnah is callous, but not immoral. 2) Jasnah values dynastic stability and the big picture, but Kaladin values the individual. 3) These things combined are not prohibitive of them getting married (especially if its politically motivated) or indeed having a healthy relationship, but neither does it recommend them. As I have said before in this thread, I find it terribly unlikely that these two get together (and I think there are a few things that are more likely), but I do not find it impossible.
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  34. Yes, we're not disagreeing that Taravengian was served by the murders as well. But the primary focus of the act was that it was a moral lesson--she intentionally took Shallan to demonstrate a point, rather than simply take care of a problem covertly, and all to demonstrate the moral ambiguity of such an action. Also, I could be wrong on this point, but wasn't Jasnah targeting Aesudan in the WoR prologue? If so, that was also the night Gavilar was murdered and any thoughts of assassination may have simply flown out the window in light of that event and of finding out the cause of her father's murder. Please provide textual evidence to support your argument that she held back out of love for her brother, I'm genuinely curious. You and I read this differently. That's okay. Kaladin attacks her only after she steam-rolls him several times. In WoR, she exhibits a marked response to Amaram prior to any real conversation, and their eventual confrontation in OB only confirms that reaction. She is thoughtful, but she is impulsive--such as when she spoke with Navani and began the process of setting up a causal before ever even speaking to Shallan. Motive is irrelevant here--the fact that she acted first, asked later is impulsive. They do not have to be mutually exclusive. Perhaps hate is too strong a word as you say, yet again, you are using my specific word choice to infer an opinion I don't express. She does express discontent with religion, and in a higher being dictating the laws of morality. She makes a comment to Shallan in surprise that Shallan doesn't dislike the idea of "being beholden to a man". These imply that Jasnah doesn't like being arbitrarily told what to do--she likes to take her own actions, to act according to her own conscience. The fact that she's actually respectful of those who do believe doesn't mean that she is apathetic to it either. Don't paint Jasnah as innocent here. She belittles him and he gives it back. They mutually attack each other. That said, it's not out of context, considering in the previous chapter we were told through Dalinar's eyes that Jasnah only smiles under very specific circumstances. Again, this was not a dissertation on Jasnah alone, it was a discussion of the both of them, and the context of my argument within that scope was not "out of context." You're right to a degree. Where you are wrong, is that I'm intentionally reducing to paint mine in a favorable light. I'm not. I'm acknowledging that these three are the most prevalent arguments I've seen, and I'm reacting to them now rather than having a series of them following or a bunch of small meaningless reactive comments. Perhaps there is a better way to go about doing this. If you think of one, let me know. Your paragraph here is accurate. In fact, I've made the same points myself. What I was commenting on was the often pronounced sexism that has been present with arguments like this one. Again, these three points are preemptive reactions, rather than explanations of someone else's viewpoint that I don't share. I even said as much, but perhaps again I could have said this in a better way. Eloquently put. Those are the same points I was making, but from the opposite side. Not sure what your point is here--my point was that the text is not explicit in either direction, and you agree, from the sounds of it. One point--what does Syl think Kaladin needs to do? What does Syl push Kaladin toward throughout Oathbringer? Again, you misread my statement. My point of view has nothing to do with this--this was point B when I brought up the original three arguments (points 2 & 3 were eclipsed under point C). This is a great paragraph. I wish you'd had this in your first response. That said, in listing only Syl and Bridge 4 you negate the powerful revelations in the chasm with Shallan that led him to that acceptance in WoR. Without that chasm sequence, Kaladin might have truly lost Syl, for he would never have seen a lighteyes who was like him, and would never have found it in himself to see the good in Elhokar. Context is important, as you said earlier. It wasn't. Don't put words in my mouth. And "callous" doesn't mean "cold-hearted" as I said. In one definition, I see where you're coming from, but if you want to know my intention, it was to state that Jasnah is a bit more hardened and tough with regards to human life than, say, Kaladin or Shallan. That's not what I meant in the slightest. I'm sorry you read it that way, but again, this might be more you having a problem with my tone and word choice, and several other people I know didn't read it the way you did either, I asked. Maybe you know people who read it the same way you did. I think your point is generally more subjective than objective--and if you want to disagree on this, that's fine. I was not trying to be insulting to the character and I replied so. Will? No. Can? Yes. It's a possible outcome, one I was simply addressing is how I think it could go. Again, we could agree to disagree on this point. Again, here we have a difference in approach. By pointing out advisors and her willingness to admit when she makes mistakes and listen to advice, you are enforcing the idea I stated that a tempering voice is a good thing. I'm not stating that Jasnah will by a tyrant on her own--as I've said multiple times, I was explaining a situation in which their characters could work together. Everything you say about these characters individually is accurate! But when taking the possibility of characters being together, I am discussing ways that they could grow together. I'm not saying these things won't happen without the other--just that these are the way things could happen. Again, you misconstrue my statement entirely. People in power often balk at the actions a bodyguard must necessarily take to save their life. Sometimes the bodyguard is overprotective, sometimes they're paranoid. If you want a great example, look at Adolin's initial distrust of Kaladin throughout Words of Radiance, and how he was upset that Kaladin was so involved. This was not a comment as specifically about Jasnah herself, as it was of the nature with a ruler/bodyguard relationship. This point was never in my post. I never said anything about breeding or children. I just don't think Gavinor's important in this arc. That's it. I think his importance (and Kaladin's brother's) is overstated and over-hyped. I'd much rather see how Jasnah does in power with Gavinor as heir-apparent, and as I said, I don't think Gavinor factors very much into the Jasnah and Kaladin potential. Jasnah and Kaladin don't need to be married--Jasnah can be Queen, all on her own. A grab for power by Jasnah was never in my thoughts, and I think on this matter you and I agree. I didn't state opinions were asinine. I stated that an argument was asinine. That's a whole different ballpark. You can attack an argument without attacking a person. This was the very premise of that segment. If I belittled or insulted, such was not my intention. I don't congratulate those that agree with me, though I may be excited when someone does. I'm not so full of myself to do that. And in your paragraph here, you imply I did those very things. That is what I mean by insulting. Your original post did not attack the arguments as your latter did. It was insulting and reactive. Perhaps you and I simply have different forum etiquette, perhaps you and I are just used to different modes of speech. You read way more into my statements than I put in. I think we can safely say on this topic that we will agree to disagree, though. Have a nice day. P.S. That formatting worked well, thanks. It was very easy to look at your statements and react accordingly. I'm genuinely sorry if I caused you offense--such was not the intention, as I said. I appreciate discussion and debate, and when someone agrees with me that is genuinely exciting. I can see how you could interpret it another way, so if you have suggestions as to how I can avoid a situation like this in the future, I'm willing to listen. Thanks.
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  35. Good luck to all of you! I'm really excited to read what you think of! @Ashspren Thanks a lot! I had a lot of fun, and I was really honored that you let me participate this time. But honestly, everybody else was better than me.
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  36. Shall we enumerate the times Kaladin or Shallan has gotten hate or desires for death in the history of the Shard? In that very same thread four people said they wanted Shallan dead, and you don't see me (the self-ascribed #1 Shallan fan) complaining about it. Also, quoting the thread that was listed specifically for people to list which characters they want dead and saying its a reflection of the general attitude isn't quite accurate.
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  37. TO: All Silverlight staff and students, here is growing list of the classes that will be offered this Spring at Silverlight University. Art 160: Analysis of Cosmere Art. Art 170: Drawing Art 240: Selish Art-Investure connection Art 480: Preserving Art from the Court of the Gods, a Personal view from Professor Scoot. Accounting 378: Economic costs of Invested Abilities. Taught by Professor Steris Ladrian Anthro 100: Cultures of the Cosmere Anthro 220: Religions resulting from faulty historical filters. Taught by Professor Jasnah Kholin and Professor Lightsong. Bio 185: Overview of invested Flora and Fauna Bio 190: Surviving non-Scadrian field trips. Class equipment list includes sliver knife, aluminum dueling canes, and a gun. Note: Due to the inherent danger of the Threnody unit, all students have to sign a waver. Bio 215: Rosharian ecology Bio 235: Taldainian ecology Bio 240: Effects of investure on Human Anatomy and Physiology Bio 270: Singer Anatomy and Physiology Bio 275: Kandra Anatomy and Physiology. Taught by Professor Lann Bio 345: Vaxian microbiology Bio 400: Field Study of First of the Sun's Flora and Fauna: Prerequisites Include Bio 190 Business 380: Allomancy and sales. Chem 230: Metallurgy Chem 235: Allomantic Metallurgy Chem 350: Aonic transformative chemistry Chem 490/590: Chemistry of Soulcasting: All students are required to either have a soulcaster or be bonded to an inkspren or cryptic by the second week of class. Soulcasters can be rented from the book store. Computer Science 130: Creating Intelligence. All students are required to have the proper aluminum coated gloves for interaction with the TA. Taught by TA Nightblood Engr 120: Bridge design Engr 245: Rifles and anti-Allomancy weaponry. Taught by Dr. Ranette Engr 370: Airship design and construction lab Engr 450: Aonic computer design Fab Engr 265: Fabrial engines: Taught by Professor Navani Kholin with labs being run by the Ardents. Investure 101: Basic Realmic Theory. CoReq: with Bio 190 Investure 102: Manifestations of Investure on Major Shard Worlds Investure 103: Manifestations of Investure on Minor Shard Worlds Investure 205: The Metallic Arts. Guest Lecturer: Harmony, Formerly know as Sazed of Terris. Investure 215: Awakening and Biochromatic Breath. Taught by Professor Zahel Investure 225: Surgebinding. Colectured by Professor Dalinar Kholin, Professor Lift (if she happens to show up), and Professor Teft Investure 300: Hacking the Investure systems. Colectured by Professor Zahel, Professor Kelsier, and The Dean of Research, Lady Khriss Investure 450/Bio 450: Advanced Hemalurgic Theory Invested Engr 335: Aonic programming and development. Rotating lecturers from Sel. Note: All final projects have to be submitted to the Elantrians for Safety Testing. We do not want a repeat of the the killer swimming pool incident. Psyc 101: Wayne's world (of hats) Psyc 345: Singer forms and their effect on mental processes. Taught by Professor Venli Psyc 560: Lightweaving and Emotional Damage Physics 212: Allomancy Physics 309: Physical laws in the Cognitive Realm Physics 315: Gravitation. Taught by Professor Sezth and TA Nightblood PE 101: Shard Dueling: Shardblades can be rented from the books store or checked out from the rec center PE 106: Target Practice. Taught by Professor Venture of the Political Science Department Polisci 101: Governmental Theory: Taught by Professor Venture Polisci 210: How to rule without even trying. Taught by Professor Lightsong Polisci 400: Winning Friends and using assassins to take out the rest. Taught by Guest Lecturers Taravangien and Straff Venture Spren 101: Spren Identification Spren 200: The Nahel Bond Spren 350: Fabrials Spren 480: Spren society Theft 101: Con artist and Nobles: Taught by Professor Ladrian the Older Theft 205: Best place to stick a knife in a nobleman: Taught by Guest lecturer Kelsier Theft 315: Forgery. Taught by Professor Shai I am too tired to write any more. Please add more classes. All of Silverlight thanks you. Edit: I added some Mistborn stuff.
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  38. Case in point about the glorification here. You think that Adolin should be praised for 'being willing to train Shallan' but you never stopped to consider if Shallan wanted to be trained in the first place. Did he even ask? She clearly wasn't ready, if you actually paid attention to her POVs, because of the trauma Pattern-blade brought to her since, you know, she killed her mother with it. But of course, you only see that Radiant's creation was because she couldn't help but being all 'lovey-dovey' for Adolin being so physically close to her. Case in point again about the glorification here, you only see Adolin and none of Shallan's issue. We are clearly reading two different characters, maybe even books. First of all, I don't remember Palona reading any books, I think you are remembering that ardent in the interlude. Either way, just because one woman reads romance books it doesn't mean that all women do and maybe you should be a little more careful with that generalization on a public forum where female readers participate. On the contrary, Shallan wasn't like that, from Way of Kings: Chapter 8:
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  39. Sometimes you need a crutch in order to heal at all. Leaning on somebody else when you need help is not a bad thing.
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  40. Given that we know powers in the cosmere can be split into qualities, such as the Shards of Adonalsium, I think this theory is significant. It would make sense too. The Unmade are like liitle shards of Odium in themselves. The pieces of hate; greed, bloodlust, chaos, death?, etc
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  42. Tell her that her shardblade stance is the secret wind stance known only to a few, to be used during close-in fighting to give the shardbearer an unexpected tactical advantage. No one expects Dalinar to catch the sword, just like no expects Adolin to break the wind.
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  43. @vissy I read that smile as "Hold my beer and watch me destroy this fool," but it's entirely possible we'll get it recontextualized later.
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  44. I'm the... I'm... Who knows at this point. Maybe Grandpa's crazy friend who sticks his head out of the basement now and then?
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  45. It's weird, i never thought of Taravangian as a villain, i didn't even suspect people thought of him that way. All throughout the books i saw him as a conflicted character doing what he thought was good for the greater number of people. He did some pretty bad stuff in the process, but honestly, so has Dalinar, Kaladin, Adolin, etc. I really like Taravangian.
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  46. Can always use more hugs. *hugs back* I've been doing better, RPing helps, lets me escape into a different life for a little while.
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  47. It's mentioned and alluded to a lot in the books but I'm not sure it's actually an accurate statement. Having commitment issues is an easy cop-out saying for someone who is searching for the right one but is willing to search. (Ie. play the field/date a lot.) If he was banging all these chicks but not sticking around then I'd start pondering the term "commitment issues" but as it stands he seems too timid to even get to the point where commitment comes into play. Also to note though, he very well could have commitment issues, I just don't think we've seen anything in-book that actually suggests that. It just looks like it a bit.
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  48. The scene (scenes?) where Shallan comes out with her Thousand and One lies and/or omissions concerning her masks, her past and so on will certainly be interesting reading. I just hope it won't all be off-screened or simply brushed over like it was nothing. I want to see Adolin struggle like a normal freaking person over seeing the person they love admit that they're actually not at all like how they've presented themselves so far. I want to see him react to that, and I want to see character interaction that isn't between two robots. If that happens, I might even start to like Shadolin.
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  49. I don't particularly mind charges of "realism" or "unrealism" in books. I think what people often call unrealistic are actually quite realistic things. Take romance for an example since this is a shipping thread. The romance between Shallan and Adolin could be called unrealistic because of how soppy it seems, but then what does a romance look like when you look at it from the outside? I even know people who have acted in similar manners to Adolin and Shallan when they're in love.
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