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Night 7: Haelbarde Straw and Hadrian Heatherlocke stared at each other from across the open hall, both surprised. It was rare for the two heirs to run into each other on accident these days. The Keep was empty of nobles, and all but the most trusted servants. Only the necessary staff were here. Straw nodded to his cousin. “Hadrian.” Hadrian nodded back. “What are you doing out and about?” Hadrian sighed. “I’m leaving the keep. Auden, Dbec, and Leets have proven that we are not safe here. I’m taking our guards with me.” Straw nodded. “Good idea. I’m glad I had the same one. I’ve had the Hazekillers assemble to escort me.” There was a pause, as the cousins considered each other. They had spent the last week worrying about who in the Keep they could trust, but with Auden’s death, and subsequent proof that he had been the one to poison Lord Rab, they could again trust each other. Hadrian moved first, and Straw moved to meet him. They grasped eacother’s hands, and shook. “Good luck Cousin.” “Hopefully we will meet again, some happier day.” Lord Hadrian Heatherlocke, surrounded by the House Guard, personally walked down the streets of Luthadel. Auden and Taswell had both died in their carriages, because they could not see their surroundings. He would not repeat their mistakes. He had a solid wall of steel and flesh around him, with a smaller, looser ring inside that. He had room to maneuver, scouts in side streets and ahead of him, and all the power of his own Iron Allomancy to keep himself safe. It would take nothing short of an army to take him down. There was a commotion at the front of the wall of troops, and one of his scouts slipped in. The man approached, then knelt several meters away. “Lord Hadrian, there are more guards ahead. An army, equal to us. They are currently attempting to barricade several streets, blocking us in. They are killing our scouts.” “Blast.” Hadrian looked up and down the streets. There was no easy way to fight in here. The alleyways and side streets provided too many opportunities for others to get ahead and around his troops. “We need to get through them before they can finish their defenses.” “A good strategy my lord.” Rumbled his Captain. “Shall we form up into a charge, or continue in our current formation?” “I’ve never lead warfare in a city Captain. I’ll let you give the orders. Keep me safe.” The Captain slammed a fist into his armor in a salute, and began to give orders. The guards compressed the perimeter around Lord Hadrian, and began to advance down the street, more Heatherlocke guards arriving from the side streets. Archers began to scale buildings around the street, jumping from roof to roof. And then the other army appeared. There was a call from the front, and an opposing wall of Steel and Flesh swung around the corner ahead. They slammed into the front rank of the Heatherlockes, and men began to scream as they died. “Lord Ruler.” The captain examined the scene. “They must have abandoned their ambush when they saw the scout escape.” “Is it safe to go around them?” “We’ve lost too many scouts sir. We don’t know where around them is. We have to hold this street, and wait for an opportunity to punch through. Once we can — Arrgh!” Hadrian jerked away from the captain, as a large man in a vest fell on him, slamming him into the ground. The man drew back one fist, and punched clean through the captain’s helmet, killing him. A Coinshot landed beside the Thug, panting. “damnation you’re heavy. I don’t want to do any more Combat drops.” Hadrian pulled the captain’s sword from his sheathe and into his hand. He jumped backward away from the pair as his guards began to turn towards the new threat. But then a spray of coins and nails shot down from above, mowing down a section of guards. Another Coinshot, with a Thug holding onto his back, fell from the sky. “We’ll deal with the guards, you two kill Hadrian.” He recognized the man. Zakhary Tormander. Hadrian pulled a shield from a nearby guard, and charged, not giving them time to reply. The first coinshot smirked and pushed against Hadrian. But Hadrian only grinned, and pulled on all the guards behind the coinshot. His sword, and all the metal on him rammed against him, but the force of his pull still gave him enough speed to get close. The Coinshot stepped back in shock as Hadrian rammed a sword through his belly. The Thug punched him in the head. Hadrian dropped the sword and shield as he sailed into the ranks of his guards, who quickly grabbed him and got him onto his feet. He gasped in pain as his vision flickered in and out of focus. The Thug charged forward, knocking aside guards like a Koloss. He tore through their ranks even as they formed more. Hadrian breathed in, trying to catch his breath and regain his mental capacities. The Thug reached him first. Straw Heatherlocke cracked his dueling cane against the Thug attacking him. The Ffnord noble dropped, out for the count. Straw stood as 1 point in a pentagon, his back to his last 4 hazekillers. Surrounding them were several dozen guards and another half dozen Allomancers. The Allomancers and the Guards didn’t seem to be working together, but they had attacked at the same time. Together, they had killed 20 of Straws expert Hazekillers. Together, Straw and his 24 Hazekillers had killed 100 guards, and a dozen allomancers. All the coinshots were dead, so now it was just melee combat. The allomancers all focused on him, and the guards focused on his Hazekillers. There would be no help coming, unless Hadrian somehow learned of his plight. So they fought. Straw deflected two Glass daggers, wielded by yet another Thug, and directed the man into one of his fellows. Seemed like the Ffnords had sent every Thug they had after him, learning from the last several attempts on his life. He grinned as he fought, deflecting blow after blow, with the best of the best at his back. There was no force in the kingdom stronger than his hazekillers. “Above!” Straw glanced up at the call from one of his men. He gasped, and nearly died from the distraction, but managed to block at the last minute. Above them, barely seeable through the thick steel bars of the Prison Cart, was a mistborn. He was floating a good 40 meters above them, Steelpushing presumably, and holding onto one of the Lord ruler’s Prison cart’s with a combination of Lurching and Pewter burning. Desperately, Staw looked for some way out, but they were surrounded, penned in. He glanced up again, only to see that the mistborn had dropped the cart. “I was so close—” the cart slammed down. ----- Staw was killed by the Ffnords! Araris was killed by the Tormanders! The Heatherlocke winner will be revealed at the end of the game. This cycle will be another night cycle, since we want the Ffnords to have some say in which one of them wins. Player list: (Jondesu) RemartFfnord (Fifth Scholar) Count Olaf Ffnord (Crimsn Wolf) Altea Meza Heron (Orlok Tsubodai) Locke Tormander

Warning: This post discusses romantic relationships, so do not proceed if that it not your thing At Brandon's signing last weekend, we got an interesting WoB where a fan asked about Kaladin's proficiency with the spear... and Brandon ended up taking the conversation around to a Connection (appears to be Cosmere capitalized Connection) between Syl and Shallan. I am specifically interested in the latter point. The link for the WoB is here and text below, with the part about Syl and Shallan in bold. I'll discuss my thoughts after the text. The scene Brandon is mentioning is in WoR, text copied below, and I personally had no idea this was supposed to be Shallan. At the very least, this is a specific reveal that Syl "knew" Shallan, in a similar way to the fact she "knew" Kaladin prior to actually meeting her. (With hopefully a different outcome though! Don't know how I'd feel about Syl bonding Shallan... ) The context for this is that Kaladin is training his men in the chasms, and Syl is discussing the danger she faced in coming to find Kaladin. On the face of it, she is encouraging Kaladin that he is not alone, that other spren are struggling against the prohibition for bonding humans, and there will be other Radiants. Syl of course doesn't actually know Shallan, when Shallan finally shows up at the Shattered Plains, Syl doesn't recognize her, know she is a Radiant, or even sense Pattern except maybe vaguely at the 4v1 duel (there's a number of spren she could have sensed then though.) But something about the Connection between Shallan and Syl in the Spiritual Realm allows Syl to "see" Shallan in that moment. Brandon analogizes that moment to Kaladin's affinity for his spear and Syl and Kaladin's own bond. In other words... "fun Cosmere connections" language aside, it seems pretty significant. One of the things we see in OB is that Syl really likes Shallan. She encourages Kaladin multiples times to pursue Shallan, pushing against his own wishes; I would argue Kaladin would not have made even the (small) overtures he did towards Shallan if it wasn't for Syl's insistence. Syl and Shallan hang out in Shadesmar without Kaladin, including the fact Syl wants to remain with Shallan in Celebrant. (This is of course partially due to Shallan's lightweaving skills, but Syl at that point already had a lightwoven disguise.) Syl is also skeptical of Shallan's choice of Adolin at the end of OB, encouraging Kaladin to continue his pursuit, and indicating she can't see Shallan's "choice is made". All in all, we know Syl has a Connection to Shallan through the Spiritual Realm (where everything is one), and that these types of connections are "echoes" of events that are forming, not something as strong as "destiny", but still a definite "something is there." And since Syl is constantly pushing Kaladin towards Shallan, I think there's a great inference to made that Syl is "knowing" something about Shallan which is not yet explicit in real time in the Physical Realm. While not for certain (as nothing is until confirmed as such), the fact Brandon spontaneously brought this up in a question that had literally nothing to do with romance or Shallan at all, seems to be him pointing towards yet another piece of foreshadowing for Shalladin, one which was not apparent from the text, but he obviously seeded a long time ago.

Given that I am hardly a realmatics expert and find much of it confusing, what I'm about to say should be taken with a grain of salt, as this is my understanding of realmatics. I've always kind of seen the spiritual realm as kind of like a pool connecting past, present and future, as well as people and place. In the spiritual realm, past, present and future all happen concurrently, so a connection formed in the future could have a sort of "ripple" effect, kind of like if you dropped a rock into a pond. Those ripples would then spread throughout time, creating tiny, subtle connections you would see formed in the present and past, since all three are happening right now. It's not destiny, as much as it's evidence of something that is happening. <I'm not sure if that made sense. Metaphysics hurts my brain...> So with that rough explanation out of the way, I had always interpreted that scene to be Syl mimicking something she'd seen, or trying out a new face. I never would have made that connection without Brandon explicitly stating that Syl was turning into Shallan. We know, from ample textual evidence however, that Shallan is kind of akin to Tien in Kaladin's mind in terms of significance. Regardless of if romance is involved, the fact that Shallan is the only other person, apart from Tien, that Kaladin specifically states drives the darkness away is hugely important. In my experience with depression, people that do that are few and far between, and usually become people that you hold very tightly to. I would also like to reiterate that Syl's gravitation toward Shallan should not be taken lightly. She repeatedly asserts that not only should Kaladin pursue Shallan, but that Shallan is better for Kaladin. That Kaladin is happier with Shallan. In fact, most of the time it is Kaladin who squashes the idea, even at the end of Oathbringer. Personally, I think it's largely self-pity. He doesn't think he deserves her. He's messed things up in the past, and she deserves someone who can give her better. Adolin is, in his mind, a perfect candidate for that, and she already seems to love him. And he tries to convince himself that that is true, but like the Jiminy Cricket she is, Syl continues to try to push Kaladin toward something better.

It's definitely fascinating that Brandon chose to reveal that detail on such an unrelated question. The word that seems to have sent him on that tangent is destiny. @Alderant's explanation of past, present and future occurring concurrently in the spiritual realm is a good theory for why "destiny" isn't quite the right word to explain the connection between Syl and Shallan (or by extension Kaladin and Shallan). But apparently their future connection is akin enough to destiny in his mind that it led him to what seems like a wholly unrelated answer. It seems like maybe Brandon specifically wanted to reveal that it was Shallan that Syl took the appearance of in that scene. In context, you could perhaps guess that is what was going on (Syl is talking about others becoming Radiant and we know Shallan is one of those, and we see Shallan on the ocean shore at the beginning of the next chapter) but you'd never be sure if Brandon hadn't confirmed it since the text is quite subtle. So basically I agree that it is significant that Syl pushes Kaladin towards Shallan so much and even at the end of OB she does not seem convinced that Shallan made her choice of Adolin. I relate that to what we've seen from Syl in the past, pushing Kaladin along his path as a Radiant, at times knowing what he needs to do when he does not. I think we see similar things from Pattern towards Shallan in OB, (though she doesn't listen to him for the most part). We've also seen Syl say that as she learns things it is like she always knew them, and there are indications that she "remembers" things related to Kaladin that she wasn't around for, so there seems to be a past connection as well.

Sixth of the Dusk Edgedancer Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell Stormlight Archive [OB spoilers] Mistborn Original Trilogy Mistborn Wax and Wayne [BoM and SH spoilers] That’s all I’m doing for now. This is really fun!

This scene happened at the end of Words of Radiance, while the rest of Bridge Four were across the continent, in Urithiru.The only way The Lopen could absorb stormlight was if he began to bond a spren or have a honorblade. We know he had a spren at the end of Oathbringer, and he was saving swearing his oaths until a dramatic moment. I not saving he kept his bond a secret for a whole book, he might not of knew he was bonding a spren, but he was never a squire just a potential Knight Radiant. It could also just be a continuity mistake.

Well, good job Orlok on neatly eliminating the possibility of a Kandra win. Guess we have to try to kill each other again, Jondesu. Count Olaf stood amidst the corpses of Hadrian and Straw. Their sightless eyes gazed uncaringly at the spectacle around them, where men lay dead in heaps, killed by coin and sword and staff. His arrest force of Guards had been sent to detain Straw on suspicion of skaa blood in his family line, but it had quickly joined with the House Allomancers Remart had sent. Together, they had killed him. Though Olaf had not known Straw well, he certainly hadn’t wished the man dead. He mouthed a silent vow of vengeance against Remart for his callous act of bloodshed, and moved to Hadrian’s corpse. This one hurt more to look upon. Killed, it seemed, by Locke Tormander, a man Olaf thought he knew. He had assured Olaf that all he wanted in the city was a seat of power. Yet what was that man doing with his newfound supremacy over the Tormanders? Olaf shuddered, and moved his eyes away from Hadrian’s corpse. Not quickly enough, however, to fail to notice the small pouch of atium beads tied to the man’s belt. He unhooked it, and within it was a note: Count Olaf Ffnord, If you are reading this, then either I or a political opponent is dead. I am a man of my word; when you conspired to place me on the Heatherlocke throne, you did so because you knew you wanted someone who would not play the political games of the nobility. So if I am alive, take this as a further sign of my goodwill. I am freely gifting you Atium which my own skaa have mined. As per my word. You will also find a sheet in here detailing instructions as to how to contact the kandra in my employ should I die or my Contract be passed. Pay him with these beads, and await further instructions. I know you do not want Remart truly dead; this may provide another way. I will tell you if and when to use these, and together we may yet enact real change in Luthadel. If, however, you have pulled this missive off my corpse, know then that this Atium is still yours, by my will and word. If legal contracts need be given, you will find a paper in my desk drawer. There’s a false back to the second drawer on the right; you’ll find it there. Unfortunately, my kandra will have returned to his people for reassignment. But I’m sure that Atium will be useful to you in other ways. Use it wisely, and do not let it fall into the hands of our enemies. For they are still crafty, and may yet find a way to use it. Be vigilant, for where there’s smoke, there’s fire. But the world is quiet here. Hadrian Heatherlocke Olaf wept silently, shielding his face with his hood so as not to let others see his tears. Hadrian was truly dead. But he glanced down at the small parcel in his hand. This Atium is yours, by my will and word... yet Olaf found within himself a deep, intense hatred for everything that parcel represented. Hadrian, who would not die peacefully but haunt his memory. The slaughter and instability, brought about by the initial poisoning of all the house lords at the ball. And the potential for murder and domination, if he simply pocketed it and walked away. But no. In his youth he would have done such a thing, but no longer. Motivated by a sudden impulse, Olaf sprinted towards Hadrian’s house. He pushed his way past the Ministry guards at the door, who were surprised but did not question him thanks to his high status. He took the stairs two at a time up to Hadrian’s study, where he finally paused, panting. He opened the second desk drawer to the right, and almost fearfully, pushed back the false panel in the back. Within it was a very short note: I, Hadrian Heatherlocke, bequeath all the Atium in my possession to Olaf of Ffnord. Olaf screamed, unwilling to accept what his eyes saw. He could not own this metal, which left so much death and destruction in its wake. Crumpling Hadrian’s note and tossing it in the fireplace, he took Hadrian’s letter and scrawled on the back of it: May whoever finds this drawer know that Hadrian was a great man. Use his gift wisely. For I cannot accept this curse. Olaf of Ffnord. Olaf placed the letter and the parcel in Hadrian’s secret compartment, closed it quietly, and walked out into the nighttime rain, weeping. Sorry you had to die, Araris. I hugely enjoyed working with you the whole game.

When you're thinking about Toy Story, and then you start thinking.. Maybe the toys are invested.. Maybe that's how investiture expresses itself on this planet.. So is this on Earth.. No, must be some other Shardworld.. So, can the investiture from the toys be used by humans?.. or maybe the investiture is in humans.. yeah, that works better.. But when kids personify their toys, and give them so much love and attention, they start drawing in investiture and gaining sentience... I overthink things when I'm bored. Although, This really makes sense when you look at something called the Pixar theory... Not sure If anyone else here knows what I'm talking about

In reference to my memes:

It’s been stated that prior to arriving in the Rosharan System, Odium paid a visit to Sel to check out the scenery, kill a couple of Gods, usual touristy stuff. By what I can gather, this happened quite some time before the Reod, and predates Shu-Keseg, the parent religion of Shu- Dereth, leaving a lot of time in the aftermath for the events of that interaction to fall into legend and myth. Brandon has also said that if you looked hard enough you could find the influence of Odium on Sel still. During the events of Elantris, it is said that Jadeth is an old pagan God who cared for the stones, but Shu-Dereth thrust him into their mythology when it split from Shu-Keseg proper. Considering the connection between Odium and Stone in stormlight archive, this is at least plausible. This isn’t to say that Shu-Dereth worships Odium directly, or that Dakhor Magic is of his power, as their religion and culture obviously fit better with Dominion. However, over time images of deities can shift and blend. Add to this, that when Hrathen meets Dilaf, he is careful to note his PASSION and basically states that if one can use that passion to achieve the desired Dominion, then it would be a tool he would use carefully but willingly. Dilaf’s motives in the story are driven much more by hatred than domination, and so it makes me wonder about how deep the influence of Odium goes in Fjordell culture.

But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. An eye for an eye, as the saying went, was not enough. For Zaffer, double agent, Scarf-stealer, liar, deciever, monster, even, did not play to get even. He played to get ahead. There were rules, yes, but they were created by something lesser than him, something that was mortal. The sound of a hundred footsteps marching in unison pounded towards Zaffer, the sound of death. He raced across the rooftops, casting off the cloak that had covered his true form, not a litteral cloak, but a mental one. He grew larger, his muscles becoming more defined, the slight limp to his step disappearing, and he returned to what he truly was, a Returned. A God. He leaped with the strength of 10 men, his legs now pulsing with the energy of life. The footsteps began to fade, but it would not be long before they caught back up. He quickly whipped out a rope, his target underneath him. And gave the simple command, "Entangle." He entered an old warehouse, it was out of the way, but it was where is true work went on, eight figures stood there silently, each the modified form of those that had destroyed by the hatred of their brothers and sisters. The last one was ready, and he quickly spoke to it, Awaken to my Breath, serve my needs, live at my Command and at my word. Technicolor Scarf. As he gave the newest, and last, lifeless the new Security Phrase, he draped the scarf that he stole earlier across its shoulders, a slight glint still registering somewhere in his brain. He went down the line saying each security phrase, one after another, each decorated with a beautiful work of art, that seemed to contain more than just beauty, but souls. Now that they were all ready, Zaffer spoke a final command. "Destroy Shu." And the Lifeless left. The pounding of footsteps slowly returned, drawing closer to him, and he flung his 'cloak' back on him, his form returning to that of a cripple, his leg flaring with pain. The steps were closer now, closing in on him, but Zaffer was content, not only would Shu be killed, but the only source of information along with him. A pounding echoed on his door, that was followed with the sharp sound of cracking wood. Zaffer kept his eyes clothes, and could feel the sting as a blade but into his eye. Shu had been walking, having talked his way our of death, convincing those that he was good. That was when the Rope fell. It entangled him, tying his arms together in tight knots, dropping him where he stood. He moved slowly, the Rope seeming to loosen, and slowly worked his way out. His left hand was free, quickly followed by his right, his legs following after. He got to his feet, and saw someone he knew standing at the end of the road. "You wouldn't believe what just happened to me!" He exclaimed "Lucky, I-" he cut off as he realized that Lucky was dead, yet was somehow standing in front of him. Lifeless he thought, slowly backing away. Lucky advanced on him, and he turned to run, only to slam right into Vaati, knocking him to the ground. After orienting himself, he looked up only to be surrounded by dead faces, each adorned with some odd trinket. He looked at each face, Gormund, Jaaver, Straw, Mac, Salthis, along with Vaati and Lucky from before. Their hands began to decend towards him, and he let out a single scream as his eye was ripped from his socket. The guards in the area quickly rushed towards the sound of the scream, and found was used to be a body surrounded by Lifeless. They took out their weapons, and began to chop the Lifeless apart, hoping to stop anything like this from happening to anyone else. As the Scarf hit the ground, the deal was done. An eye for an eye, and more. This writeup has been brought to you by: @Droughtbringer! Go upvote them. Vote Tally Drought (7)- Shqueeves, Brightness, Devotary, Monster, Ripple, Arinian, Ecthelion Shqueeves (2)- Drought, Joe Drought has been lynched! Identity of the deceased: Shqueeves has been murdered! Identity of the deceased: Player List 1. A Joe in the Bush as Jeo the Yellow 2. Elenion as Gormund Oscarson Idrian 3. Randuir as commander Jaaver Idrian Captain 4. Livinglegend as Lucky Idrian Sentry 5. Shqueeves as Shu Idrian Awakener 6. Bort as Bort the Brute Idrian Captain 7. BrightnessRadiant as Ivy 8. Straw as Straw Idrian 9. TheMightyLopen as Vaati Idrian 10. MacThorstenson as Mac Idrian 11. Devotary of Spontaneity as Fahmexa 12. Ecthelion as Eärendil 13. Coop772 as Salthis Idrian 14. MonsterMetroid as Roid 15. Droughtbringer as Zaffer Hallandren Awakener 16. RippleGylf as Sarcoline 17. Arinian as Elien Rollover

I own several pens, but I have not named them.

So I was thinking about my super awesome Spirit Web topic (seriously, go read it. It's in my signature. Some of my best theory work). In particular, I wanted to address the issues some people were bringing up with my idea of Adonalsiums origin. So, today I developed a proof of why it seems logical. Given: The Universe of the Cosmere started similar to our own, and dumped out matter, energy, and investiture into existence The Spirit Realm encompasses all perfect ideals Matter, Energy, and Investiture began to clump in the early universe, just like ours No intervention from a God Beyond Investiture, as it clumps, naturally creates sentience there was no other life at the beginning Therefore, Adonalsium would have formed as all the investiture clumped together- since there was nothing else to form spirit webs for. Furthermore, as the mind inhabiting the ultimate soul (A mind a soul, anyone?), Adonalsium would be the ultimate ideal being- God, for all intents and purposes, naturally created by the processes of the universe. His mind would arbitrarily form in the location of the Cosmere, explaining the localization of so much life. And as the ideal God, Adonalsium created things. More conditions, becoming more speculative: Adonalsium comprises essentially the entire Spirit Realm, with a truly infinite mind to control all investiture Life has a greater personal spirit web- that would no longer be a part of Adonalsium's web. Adonalsium's ideal nature forces it to create life Therefore, over time, Adonalsium would become smaller, and no longer comprise all investiture- becoming less idyllic, and maybe losing the infinite mind thing. An issue with this is that it is unclear how much life Adonalsium would have to have created to make a noticeable difference in it's personality. It is possible that while I am pretty sure this mechanic would occur under the assumptions I described, that the actual effect is trivial. However, it does bring to mind another thing- as it loses investiture, Adonalsium may have begun taking its drive to create life to an extreme degree, or even altered it in another way. However Adonalsium ended up in the spot that it did, it got to the point where it got shattered. Given that I think it was an infinite mind, it could see the future. It could see its own death. All it would have had to do was not create life. Or even not create those people who shattered it. Given that it didn't, its own perfect nature must have driven it to create life, no matter the consequences. This feels EXTREMELY likely to me in terms of the Cosmere. First off, it matches with the theme that Ideals aren't always perfect. It matches with the idea of Gods not being able to control their will. And also, the idea of a God that naturally forms- and dies- as a result of the laws of the universe seems extremely cool. It feels like the kind of narrative that would fit into the Cosmere. Finally, it would put to rest any idea of anyone reforming Adonalsium. According to this, Adonalsium formed from all investiture, and naturally had an infinite mind, making it able to control all investiture. A human mind is limited. That is why Shards are limited in power, their minds can only handle so much, even when amplified by investiture (even though making aspects might be a cheat around this, at the cost of having one mind). Therefore, Hoid cannot recreate Adonalsium. Investiture has interwoven itself into the Cosmere. Between the Shards, invested planets, and all the investiture going on, Investiture isn't going to clump into an Adonalsium again unless you kill all life. And I don't think that is Hoid's goal. I hope my logic makes sense, and that at least some of my speculation seems plausable.

Because Time-Travel doesn't exist. How is she supposed to learn about something if there's nobody to learn from? Alendi was one of the first Allomancers. The only people who knew anything about the other Metals were the Synod(who were in hiding, and by HoA, all dead) and the Lord Ruler, who doesn't allow interviews. Khriss was only allowed the scraps of knowledge that TLR allowed anyone to know. The Steel Inquisitorius is responsible for Atium being in the Temporal Quadrant, and as the only ones who've experimented with it, they are the most authoritative source. This is also why the Atium steals anything tidbit didn't exist yet, because the Inquisitors hadn't discovered this until Ruin was freed. MB Era 2 Spoilers(on the assumption that you haven't read it yet) It's the same on Roshar, where there haven't been Surgebinders in nearly 2,500 years, and 4 losses of information since then(The Recreance, The Hierocracy, The Fire in the Palanaeum, etc..). She can't learn what nobody knows.

YES!! The Pixar theory is amazing and I believe that this might be the missing link we have needed all along! Investiture is the key! Mr. Potato Head is actually Hoid!!!

When I'm stuck in an irritating half-hour discussion elective, and then the discussion for the day is "do you reread books or rewatch shows?" and you try to remember if you are on your 8th or 9th reread of OB.

Okay so I managed to stop my Malazanv re-read long enough to read Angus Watson's Iron Age trilogy, which was interesting and funny but not really satisfying, and I can't help myself I HAVE TO READ REAPER'S GALE NOW ESP AFTER ALL YOUR COMMENTS. I am weak.

@podman36 How apposed are you towards the DA? When you make these: Vin as Valette, Hoid, Shallan, Syl, Raoden, and Jasnah. When you are on your sixth time reading tWoK. I've also read WoR five times, and OB twice.

Well, hello. I am Tesh, the, erm, founder? of the Knights of the Cosmere. The Knights of the Cosmere is a decent sized role playing group, though most of our members are inactive. We have a role play on a PM, so if you'd like to join, I'll tell you how to go about doing that in a minute. This thread will basically just be for updates, general conversation among members, and ones who would like to join, and a catalog of sorts to keep track of all the members. To join: Members: Rules: RP #3 will be starting in a few weeks, and recruiting will end for a while. If you want to read the role plays, @AonEne has them in a Google Doc, and you can ask her for the link.

We know on Scadrial there are three magic systems: allomancy for Preservation, hemulergy for Ruin, and feruchamy for the interaction between the two, what we now call Harmony. I had assumed Roshar would also have three magic systems for it's two shards (ignoring Odium who hasn't actively invested anywhere) and perhaps also leftover magic systems created by Adonalsium. The two magic systems we know of are Surgebinding and the Old Magic, and it seems like Surgebinding is of Honor and the Old Magic is of Cultivation. The first problem I have with this is the reason Surgebinding is of Honor is because it has to do with binding and oaths, the definition of Honor in the cosmere, but in reality the oaths are unnecessary for Surgebinding, as we see that Ishar forced organization on the first Radiants, creating the Knights and the oaths. (We don't actually know there were no oaths before, and there is still bonding) Also we know that some of the orders of Radiants are considered closer to Honor and some closer to Cultivation. I think it is impossible to say all the spren that can form Nahel bonds are completely splinters of Honor, as Edgedancers bond to Cultivationspren which are clearly splinters of Cultivation. That being said, I think it is safe to assume that the other orders considered closer to Cultivation are also bonding spren that are splinters of Cultivation. Therefore I think it is hard to say that Surgebinding, which is half bonding to splinters of Cultivation, is completely Honors magic system. Finally, I don't like to say that the Old Magic is of Cultivation. If we look at the model of Scadrial, allomancy and hemalurgy seem very symmetrical, using the same 16 metals and having the same sorting etc, but with the little information we have it does not seem like the Old Magic is in any way similar to Surgebinding, not having 10 kinds of anything of the sort. Also in the little we have seen it doesn't seem to have so much to do with cultivation. Based on all this, the first theory I have is that the Old Magic is actually a remnant from Adonalsium that Cultivation took over when she came, like how Honor took over the highstorms. This could also explain why it is called the Old Magic. The second theory I have, which I think I actually read somewhere, is that Surgebinding is actually a magic system that is combining Honor and Cultivation. It consists of bonding with spren and then cultivating those bonds to advance. This could be explained as the Roshar equivalent to feruchamy, the interaction between Honor and Cultivation, but there are two more systems, one completely of Honor and one completely of Cultivation (maybe the Old Magic but as I already explained I don't think so). My final theory is that really Roshar magic systems are actually completely different from on Scadrial and we don't have three for the two shards at all. This is because on Scadrial the two shards, after working together to create the planet, wanted nothing more to do with each other and ended up with separate but similar magic systems and a third that came from where they interacted, but on Roshar Honor and Cultivation actively wanted to stay together and work together so they only ended up with one combined magic system. I think the biggest problem with this theory is that Surgebinding started with Honor giving Honorblades to the Heralds as part of the Oathpact, all implying it is only of Honor, but it could be explained that Honor was just more actively involved. I am sorry for not quoting my sources, this is based on many things I have read. Also I am sorry if any or all of this has been said, I am new and have only been able to read so many threads. Since this is my first post yes I do want a cookie and no I won't give you my breath (but you should know it doesn't make sense to ask someone to blindly repeat "my life to yours, my breath become yours" because awakening needs Intent).

Please someone save me, i want to liiiive

They are. The biggest change is that it's now three building blocks: Matter, Energy, and Investiture. This lets Brandon get away with things that he normally wouldn't be able to, without entirely breaking the natural rules

Khriss is working off of what she can find out from the people in-world and the AAs are written at or around the time period of the books. Sadly, she is not all-knowing, so she can get bad knowledge. She's written as a researcher and scholar, rather as the Author (as in Brandon). She has access to more sources, perhaps, but still is limited to what she can find out.

Dude was hanging upside down from the ceiling at a time when Siz/Peet/Teft were the only other members of Bridge 4 who could even draw in Stormlight.

@ElephantEarwax I would not say that unless the need was dire, or if I had to overwhelm a Real bad dude long enough to stop his plots..... @Archerfavorite book is probably Oath Bringer right now, but considering how recent it is it’s hard to tell how much novelty bias to put on that.

Report your own post and ask a mod to move it in the comments. Kinda awkward, I know.

So, yeah, I realize this topic is ancient...and I sincerely hope Quiver has been able to escape the sarcophagus since his initial posting almost four years ago, however, for anyone struggling with this now, my advice is this: quiet the expectations. This kind of creative block usually happens because the output of a rough draft doesn't match the quality of a published one. Don't even compare the draft to what you want it to be. The story is not supposed to publishable when it first comes out of your head. Think about it this way: you can edit a bad draft, but you can't edit a blank page. Drafting is a way of practicing a story until it comes out the way you want it to. As you practice draft after draft, your ability to create what you want the first time around becomes that much easier over time.

Commissioned my best friend ( @tashiturn on instagram) for our 4th anniversary. Mistborn era 1 is the series that will always be dear to our hearts (as it made us cry more than Brandon's other works so that's saying something). We love the idea of how Vin and Elend are strong individuals with contrasting personalities yet they complement each other really well. They are the ultimate power couple.

When you convert your first victim to Sandorsonism, and it’s the best part of your year.

Adolin as a Willshaper based on that one WoR epigraph was a theory I came up with on my own and held to pretty strongly. But I think Oathbringer left me feeling that spren have a LOT of leeway for who they can bond. I mean, it's not like there are RULES that they have to bond someone they mesh really well with, right? It seems to me that certain people attract certain nahel spren, but there's nothing to say they can't make exceptions. Venli is the biggest example of this. I have to totally disagree with you @Calderis. We know SO little about the Willshapers of course, but that one epigraph we have describes Eshonai (in my opinion) FAR better than it describes Venli. I tend to think Venli is not an ideal candidate for Timbre... But they're bonding anyways, for one reason or another. I still don't see Adolin as an "ideal" Edgedancer (based on my assumptions of what that order looked like), but it works well enough for me to say it makes sense. And even if it didn't work at all for me, I suppose Maya could bond with him anyways if she wanted. I tend to think Adolin will be an Edgedancer (whether he fits or not) because of the WoB Calderis mentioned a while back. I think Maya is being revived, and the only basis we KNOW of for that happening is a nahel bond. So it just feels like it all works well enough. That said, WoB isn't gospel. I absolutely think there's potential for Maya to be restored in some other way we don't know about which doesn't require a (normal) nahel bond.

Agree with everything stated above. Some of these things can be addressed in future books but others like Amaram are pretty much dead (in multiple ways). Aesudan is another character I thought had an underwhelming role to play until meeting her demise. Adolin killing Sadeas certainly can be brought back up but I feel like all the tension has been lost. The biggest thing that I wish was shown more is a conversation between Dalinar, Szeth and Kaladin after the battle. With what was on screen it feels unbelievable to me that Szeth would be just welcomed into the fold and then appointed Dalinar's bodyguard. Some dialog could have helped a lot here.

This is correct. A typical dead blade does not have the level of cognition to think. Contact with a Radiant returns them further to life, due to the Nahel bond they have with their own spren. Relies hears the Spren of his Blade when Kaladin touches it. Prior to that contact, it was not alive enough to scream. I agree with almost everything you said @maxal, except for the Lopen part, which I'm sure your already aware of. Being broken is the same Cosmere mechanism as snapping, so while he may not have a "dark" past, his lose of an arm should still have been significant enough trauma to count as "broken." which goes right back into my thoughts on how Adolin not being broken enough is... Inane? Between the emotional Rollercoaster we've seen, a day the emotional losses in his life, he is. If every Radiant had to go through similar levels of trauma and emotional devastation as our main three, then the Radiants would never have numbered in the thousands in the past. Returning to the in world Words of Radiance, piece that I spoke of earlier. I'll quote it again as it was lost to the page break. The terror in this, in my opinion, is obviously in reference to physical harm. Their renowned deadliness is mentioned in tandem to this for a single incident, and the reaction is "common in such cases." I do not know what the incident that sparked this was, but terror mentioned in tandem with their deadliness has clear implications. Pacifists do not gain renown for deadliness. Not as a group. This implies to me, that whatever Simol was involved in was something to which the Edgedancers would violently object, and their arrival meant that he knew he would be on the receiving end of their anger.

Nooooooooooo!

For sake of completion, here's the WoB in question. And warning, it's long. Spoilered for length

Hugs for @Queen Elsa Steelheart and @Mulk. Sorry to hear about both your issues, they sound very frustrating.

Because he knows that hardcore fans will memorize it anyway.

As OB finally sinks in, I keep remembered choice passages. I am sorry if someone already meme'd these! Oh Jasnah... I really do like your character. It's rather entertaining with you around. And come on Mr. T... Did you have to? I mean that Diagram has been off enough times that in research, this is normally when you scrap everything and do a literature search again. Too bad Google Scholar doesn't have Cosmere. I checked.

I must also throw my hat in for Vin and Elend, and Kaladin and Syl. But speaking of hats the truly best relationship in the Cosmere is Wayne and Hats.

So, I had some thoughts about the future of cosmere/Sanderson graphic novels and we had a brief conversation about it on Discord this morning... It occurred to me that an unpublished book like White Sand was actually a perfect way to test the waters on this. I'm sure that this has been a VERY new experience for Team Dragonsteel. I think Dynamite specifically wanted something new and not previously published, but this actually works really well for Sanderson. If they were to attempt something published we would all have higher expectations and more of us would have our eyes on the project. White Sand is able to slip under the radar a little bit in a way that a Mistborn graphic novel could not. Imagine how rough it would be if Dragonsteel's first attempt at a graphic novel was something with HIGH levels of attention and hype? I'm sure it's also nice that they have the ability to adapt White Sand slightly as needed. Probably makes their lives easier as they navigate these waters. That's something they can't do with a book that's already been published. All that to say... While I'm hopeful we eventually get graphic novels of things that have been published, it was probably for the best that they used White Sand to test the waters.

Oh my god I just realized I'm I'm a Unhinged Torturer of Heralds, I'm a voidbringer/Fused

I have to agree with Leyrann on this. Although some may feel the Sadeas plot-line was disappointing, there's nothing logically wrong with it. Adolin did not leave any traces and no one knew where either of them were. The only way Adolin would be caught is if he fessed up, which he ended up doing as a growth point. The Recreance on the other hand.. The Recreance seems to have occurred for two simultaneous reasons. The first being the discovery that humans were the original invaders (the details of which are still kinda sketchy...) and a dying, raving Honor proclaiming that the KR would destroy the world. Both of these, if believed, would have a huge impact on the KR and would cause some, maybe a lot, to abandon the orders. But all of them? None of the scholars went, woah, we're the first invaders? Details please? None of the knights asked how exactly are we going to destroy the world? I could understand a huge percentage of the KR leaving for the second reason at least, but I feel like some of the KR we've seen so far (assuming the characters we've seen are good examples of the general KR personalities) would push on no matter what. Plus killing the spren on top of everything? Even if you're abandoning the orders and no longer using your powers, why kill the spren? It just seems that something is missing from the equation.

Here is a quick dump of memes I came up with in the last half hour on the fly. Spoilers to be safe I guess.....

Well yes, and that is why Elhokar died. And his death is deserved - but it is also tragic. For him to die right at the point when he finally gains self awareness and starts becoming a better person is a tragedy, despite the fact that over the first two books he was more or less a selfish elitist whiny prick. It is always possible to start being a better person, and everyone deserves the chance to redeem themselves. Elhokar's death was a tragedy precisely because he was so close to becoming a sympathetic character, but I do think the story is better for it.

Bands of Mourning

Morning all. EVeryone feeling good about being in the most active, ambitious and wonderful thread on the forums? I hope so So I agree that the "triangle" is finished given that there is a year time-gap planned between end of OB and beginning of book 4. That being said, I think there are a reasonable reasons for thinking that the marriage between Adolin and Shallan is going to be less than happy. I mean for one thing, it is massively rushed. A second thing is that Adolin is treating Veil as a drinking buddy. I don't know about you but when I've been out with my SO, he isn't suddenly my drinking buddy, he remains my SO even if we are playing drinking games. My relationship with him doesn't shift according to what I am doing or the mood I am in - it has shifted over time according to our level of attachment, but not on a moment by moment basis. I do agree that Kaladin has dodged a bullet for now. Unfortunately Adolin is about to take it instead. And I'm not sure if he'll survive the encounter. Note, even if he becomes an Edgedancer proper, we haven't seen a Radiant die yet. That is worrying on all sorts of levels. @Greywatch I've noticed that you perhaps don't want to continue arguing so whilst I have a number of comments on your post, I will try to be as non-confrontational as possible. You are entirely correct in that this is ultimately down to personal takes on how to read the characters, how much subtext to include, and how each interaction is coloured. I will reply with my own comments below, but I do think you have made your points very well and they are very convincing, but I think you and I are never going to line up on this one! I am happy to drop any conflict here, but I do want to discuss the alternative views each situation can make - more for those joining the discussion who are yet to solidify their own feelings so they see as many possible interpretations as possible. I get your point, and i can definitely be taken that way. I always saw it more as Shallan being essentially bullied into the situation by Tyn and reacting badly to it. On top of that, despite her priviledged position, Shallan is in a precarious place here. She is playing different parts for Tyn, the ccaravan owner (whose name I forget), Tvlakv the slaver, and the deserters she's just essentially hijacked by Lightweaving. I think she was likely trying to show off for Tyn, which whilst not nice for Kaladin, is not the end of the world., and also show that she had some control. I agree that it was possibly not the best of starts, but my point remains. She had lied to Kaladin about being a Horneater princess - and he knows it. Right from that moment - he says "If you were attacked..." to Tyn - I am sure he has at least got doubts - she is in a Vorin dress for a start. This means there was already an element of conflict that would have been enough to cause some difficulties between them. The boots thing was not specifically necessary except to be used as a way to judge the nature of their evolving relationship - going from resentment on both sides, to being able to laugh about it. Actually I agree with you completely here. Not sure how I made myself unclear and I apologise for doing so. Dissociation, almost by definition, is a coping mechanism. Various forms of it are normal as long as they don't become prolonged or occur too frequently. Some occur as part of other neurological phenomena such as migraines or epilepsy. Other occur after trauma (flashbacks in PTSD are a form of dissociation for example). She isn't ready to let go of them, but then, people with DID aren't either, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be helped to try - continuing down this route could very well leave her in a completely dysfunctional state. Ok, so I;m going to be a bit confrontational here. Current medical and psychiatric practice shows (with good evidence) that allowing a dissociating person to solidify the barriers between their personas is worsens their prognosis. Assuming (and yes, I am assuming that she has a real-world diagnosable condition) that she has either DID (or, as @FuzzyWordsmith helped me realise) more likely OSDD - see here for details: http://traumadissociation.com/osdd then the best course of action is to treat her the same regardless of which persona she is currently wearing. As a point, I'd like to call on @FuzzyWordsmith to help me explain the differences between OSDD and DID for the community here because I am a little fuzzy (pun intended) on them. Additionally, I do not blame Adolin for making this mistake - he is acting with the best intentions. He is not to blame for Shallan's current issues, and he is not to blame if he makes them worse by mistake because he cannot, at this stage at least, know any better. That being said, he has married her which means he is taking on the responsibility of being her main support structure. He could have chosen not to, but he pushed the situation and that in turn resulted in Shallan rushing a decision. Again, it isn't his fault, but that doesn't mean that his actions did not help lead them both here. I'm had felt I had made myself clear that I was not blaming Adolin. But there is a difference between blame and responsibility. For example, Kaladin is responsible for the men of Bridge 4, but he is not to blame for them dying when on the bridge runs. In the same way, Shallan is not to blame for having a mental health problem, but she is responsible for her own healing. Quick point, but generally progression into DID or OSDD is actually quite quick IRL. It is often the result of a specific traumatic trigger. There usually have been some dissociating behaviours present prior to division of the core personality. Shallan fits this pattern (Pattern?) as she has blackouts and periods of depersonalisation (going "cold") before we see full personality dissociation in OB. I am not clear whether the Shallan of tWoK and WoR is a persona but I am certain that by the end of OB it definitely is. The more I have read about DID and OSDD the more I realised that she has some very "textbook" elements to her situation. 'Dating' - you are absolutely right. But they aren't dating. They are married. Now obviously there are some personal takes on this and anyway we are modern RL people and the characters are Medieval-esque and fictional so their social norms and mores are going to be radically different. On top of that both would have grown up expecting an arranged marriage which does not seem to be the norm for people in this thread (if there is anyone here with either the experience of an arranged marriage or the expectation of one I;d love to get their insight). I guess my problem is that their relationship is still so ..... young and immature - I don't mean the characters (although that is also true imo) but that they are still trying to understand some basic core ideas of each other's personalities. Everyone has to start at that point, but most of us aren't getting married while still in that stage. Oh, I'm not. I have stated more than once that I think Kaladin dodged a bullet (for now). I am a Shalladin shipper but I was enormously relieved that she didn't choose him at the end because "ain't nobody got time for dat". My point has always been that I felt low at the end because when Shallan chose Adolin, it felt rushed. I was also disappointed to see no specific scenes that mirrored the chasm sequence of chapters in WoR - either with Adolin or Kaladin. On top of that I am genuinely concerned for Adolin. He's a good bloke. He is one of the only characters who is properly normal and I like that juxtaposition with the madness of the Radiants around him - some more than others. I think Shallan is bad for him. I think she chose him for the wrong reasons. I think they haven't known each other long enough to be sure that this is going to work and I am not convinced that Shallan will actually give him the support he needs and deserves - yes she may need more support than he does but that doesn;t mean he should get nothing back from her. I don't agree that Adolin's version isn't idealised, but then I suppose that's obvious I feel that Adolin has a clear image of Shallan in his head but that it is the one Shallan put there. Shallan herself in WoR says that her relationship with Adolin is like the one she has with Mraize and that she has to go beyond expectations etc. Adolin may have got a perfectly good idea of what that Shallan looks like, but it doesn't mean he's got her as a whole. I see very little evidence that she has changed her modus operandi when it comes to interacting with Adolin. She still presents the "innocent lively Shallan. Quick with a quip. even when nobody wants to hear it. Earnest, but sometimes overeager." (Chapter 29 OB) to him through most of OB. Even when he sees Veil, he not only separates her from "the real" Shallan, but she strongly feels that the real one is the one I just described. On another note, not sure how much Shallan idealises Kaladin. I mean, he glows and flies... difficult not to I suppose, but I don't remember a specific moment when she clearly thinks about him in a way that doesn't essentially line up with who he is as a person - I'm happy to be corrected. Kaladin though does idealise Shallan a bit though as he tends to see her "light" (like he did with Tien) rather than the darkness behind it. Oh, I'm also pretty sure Shallan doesn't idealise Adolin either - at least I think her own estimations of him line up with mine. Ok, so I fully admit to finding Adolin bland but I don't completely agree that it is because of a lack of page time (although there is certainly an element of that). My own personal take on him is that he is just, well, not that bright. I guess he and I would get on fairly well in real life - after all it is nearly impossible to dislike the man, but honestly, his lack of intellectual curiosity would drive me nuts. He is quite happy to listen to Shallan talk about the chasmfiends or Navani talk about fabrials, but I don't think he does any actual work to learn something new for himself. I may be underestimating him here but unlike Renarin who secretly learns to read etc and seems to be intellectually curious, Adolin seems happy to just go along with it. I think Adolin's full arc isn't done. We dont have space for everything in one book, and there need to be things that tie the books together. So far, each of our main Mains (Shllan, Dalinar, Kaladin) have taken up a huge amount of page time in each book. Adolin is a major side character, so his arc, by necessessity needs to cross several books. We will not likely see him achieve the same levels as Shallan, Dalinar or Kaladin, in terms of Radianthood (if he gets there) but his arc will continue and be directly linked to the progression he has had as a character from tWoK through all the books. Yes, me too - his is one of the threads that seems the most likely to be picked up going forward and this means we can theorycraft with it as a baseline. I agree with basically eveything in this statement and want to highlight it again for anyone who missed it. *shakes hands with @Greywatch * On a side note, I'll happily jump ship when Adolin and Shallan give me something to get behind Storms, Shallan as a mother? Hasn't Gavinor suffered enough??! I also view Shallan as not bothering to tease Adolin (because he just didnt get it) as a form of condescension. She doesnt treat him as an equal which given that they are now married is not something that should fly.... pun somewhat intended. This has been confirmed by WoB: TGANCHERO How many oaths can a Radiant swear? BRANDON SANDERSON There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan is a step higher than Kaladin. see http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=shallan+threshold I agree with almost eveything in your post here but the bit i've marked in bold, but the more I think about it the less I feel he is going to leave it. I don't think the triangle will be a thing in book 4 - but then, it wasn't really a thing in book 3 - Adolin and Kaladin weren't competing for Shallan, they were just being themselves. I also would prefer Adolin to remain as he is, he is a wonderful way to show how broken Shallan is because he is just so normal. I think is clear you and I are on the same page regarding this so other than to suggest others read your post I won't go into massive detail extolling it's virtues That said, I just want to clarify your last point. Agreed that Adolin does need to be persuaded regarding the menagerie but he doesn't wander off then - Kaladin goes to check on the disturbance (caused by Amaram and Dalinar anoucing the reformation of the KR) and that is where the scene ends. Adolin walks off when the three of them are on the plateaus prior to Kaladin and Shallan falling into the chasms. Kaladin mocks Adolin, Adolin brushes it off then walks over to some darkeyed water boys and lets them mess about with his plate, Shallan and Kaladin then briefly discuss the buildings on the Shattered Plains - and Shallan berates Kaladin for deliberately mocking Adolin in a way "he wouldn't understand". I always found it interesting that she felt the need to protect a prince with literally everything going for him from a darkeyed captain with slave brands. *shakes head* I mean, seriously, she essentially implies that she also believes Kaladin is cleverer than Adolin - which is obviously true, but given her implied classism she shouldn't be quite so ready to make up her mind on this one. I don't know, I just love the way they hate each other. Its so entertaining. Anyone else like the scene where they fight before he lets her in to see Dalinar for the first time? Kaladin is one of the few people she's met that she hasn't been able to instantly charm. She also touches him for a very long time in that segment given that they are essentially strangers, of vastly different social backgrounds, having a fight , and surrounded by people. I know she is touchy-feely as a person, but during a fairly venomous argument? I am not sure I buy it

Okay, here's what I'm basing this theory on. First, from what I understand, we know that Hoid was present, at the Shattering of Adonalsium. Next, we know that Hoid was offered a Shard, and refused to take it. (please note that this is my personal understanding, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) Now, here's my evidence. This all comes from the chapter heading of Part 4 of WoR. These chapter headings are a letter from Frost to Hoid, in reply to Hoid's letter to Frost, through the chapter headings of one of the parts of TWoK. Here are my quotes: "Is not the destruction we have wrought enough? The worlds you now tread bear the touch and design of Adonalsium. Our interference so far has brought nothing but pain." (Chapter 66, "Stormblessings") This seems to me to be Frost expressing grief over causing the Shattering of Adonalsium. Because what else would happen if your God was killed, than chaos? "However, it seems to me that all things have been set up for a purpose, and if we--as infants-- stumble through the workshop, we risk exacerbating, not preventing, a problem." (Chapter 68, "Bridges") This, to me, seems to imply that they countered Adonalsium's diving design, in shattering him. "He bears the weight of God's own diving hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend. And that is what he, unfortunately, wished to become. (Chapter 71, "Vigil") This I think, is the most telling of the quotes. "He is what we made him to be..." How else would they have made Rayse full of hatred, than Shattering Adonalsium, and giving him the Shard of Odium? You, however, have never been a force for equilibrium. You tow chaos behind you like a corpse dragged by one leg through the snow. Please, hearken to my plea. Leave that place and join me in my oath of nonintervention. (Chapter 74, "Striding the Storm") Let me refer back to the first quote, "Our interference has brought nothing but pain." Although this could be referring in general, to Hoid's interference in important events, but based on the context and the other quotes, I'm going to go with he sowed chaos by Shattering Adonalsium. More Implications: If Hoid directly shattered Adonalsium, with the help of Frost, and neither of them received a Shard (I'm assuming Frost isn't a Shard), then it was in order to prevent some terrible thing from happening, not to grow in power. (Although I'm sure that those who helped him had that as at least a secondary motive.) Conclusion: Hoid shattered Adonalsium, with the help of Frost.